exactly, it's only human too sin, to make bad choices.  Do you know how many grief counselors there are for the women that have abortions?
some of them felt they have no choice(whether they were too young, poor, for health reasons, or rape) and they feel bad, but still feel they made the right choice(for them)


I know that there are counselers out there for women that have had abortions. I also know that not all woman that have had them, feel any grief.

And I also know that there are counselors out there in this world that talk women out of abortion, and into other options, cause my mom is one of them.

I know that there are counselers out there for women that have had abortions. I also know that not all woman that have had them, feel any grief.

And I also know that there are counselors out there in this world that talk women out of abortion, and into other options, cause my mom is one of them.


Aha! So there it is..

IF you  don't realize that there already ARE, then you are already blinded ::)


Oh I've seen them up close and personal.

You've seen women throw their babies in the trash ???  mmmmkay ::)


Ever heard of Baby Carrol? Maybe it didn't make the national news. 

So, if Osama "found God" and realized what he has done in the past is wrong and is truly sorry, you would forgive him?  And, why is it up to YOU to "forgive" someone if what they've done was not done to you?


I told you 1,000 times before, and either you don't listen or you don't accept.  I have a deep strong love for people, and I look at the world has God's children. Some people openly and honestly get out of the family cause they have hate inside of themselves and for other people. But I have a love for my family that I'm a part of, and it does hurt me to see them get hurt.

If Osama found God and was truly sorry for what he did, even if that meant after a punishment, then yes I would forgive Mr. Bin ladin.

Nope.  And a Google of it brings up nothing either....


I'm almost postive they reffered to it as baby Carrol. Maybe I'm wrong, but it was in Iowa. This girl and her boyfriend took there 1 month old baby and threw it in the trash.

My point exactly.  Now, would you rather they DIDN'T bring that child into the world or did and threw it in the trash?  Sure, I'd prefer that they took the baby to a hospital or somewhere under the safe haven laws, or given the baby up for adoption, but if I had to choose between someone aborting a fetus before it's able to feel pain and killing a baby AFTER it's been born and it QUITE able to feel pain, I'd much rather see them do the first.  I know you don't believe that I'd rather they give the baby up for adoption after it's born, but either way, it's not MY decision to make.


I'd much rather see that baby get a chance at life....either way.

And someone has to make the decision....and why not me or someone else?  What makes those Supreme court members back in 1964 any better or more qualified than if Supreme Court members of today were to make abortion illegal once again?  I thought as we moved along we were supposed to improve, and I thought right, regardless of what is, I know what Ought to be.

Why not the girl who's had 3 abortions?  Let's let HER decide :)


Excellent negotiation...and let's let Charles Manson decide the penalty for homocide.  Mafia members decide the penatly for organized crime.  The memiors of Bonnie and Clyde to decide the penatly for armed Robby.

realize here that I could attack you in the same mannor you just attacked me, but I'll refrain from it.

How was that an "attack"?  You suggested that you should be the one to decide, who better than someone who's experienced it first hand, and I (not being self-serving) chose someone I felt was "qualified" to decide.  Not my fault that you didn't like my choice.  In fact, probably ANY choice I would make would not be to your satisfaction ::)


Why not a woman, who's been in the situation, and decided to give birth to the life already growing inside of her  as well.


And you know good and well it was an attack on me. Don't tempt me, or I willl throw the same thing back in your face. Not out of anger, but to show you that two can play at this game.

I still don't see how it was an attack....you either don't read or read too much into things....



fine have it your way. You know how I view abortion and you said for the lady I know that had 3 of them to make the decision to make all abortions legal and happy forever.

Then call up that guy that raped you, and have him decide the penalty for rape.

Feels pretty F'N bad to have a hurtful  remark shoved back in your face don't it?

Do you see how that WAS a counter attack?  or do you still not see it?

wow....you guys sure have some stamina here in this thread.....you all are like the energizer bunny....because you keep going and going and ...well you know!


*stepping down off of my lil soap box"


LOL


carry on..

Erin :)

If YOUR girlfriend had been the one who had the abortion, and I said to let HER decide, THEN it would be an attack on you.  You know that we don't agree on abortion so why wouldn't the comment that YOU decide not be an attack in the same way on me?  Are your feelings somehow more important than mine?




My feelings don't ever seem to ever be taken into consideration.....so I can't possibly do that can I?

I hate rape, I think it's one of the Most God awful things in this world. I hate it with a passion. But just for points and giggles lets play devils advocate here and say that I saw nothing wrong with Rape, and saw it as being ok.  Is that really going to be a ok with you?

I don't view Rape as being Ok though, and I don't have the heart to go on making my point, because I think of women, like yourself that were raped and it makes me sick to my stomach.  You were violated, beaten, sexual assulted, made to feel like sheit. You had something done to you that no person  on the face of this planet deserves to go through.  The Thought of actually believing that there is nothing wrong with rape, and having all the women in the world come before me, and be able to tell them that I personally think there is nothing wrong with rape, makes me sick to my stomach.  I would be heartless, gutless, cold, and plain heartless to say that.

Bare with me on this next one, cause you aint' gonna like it.

31 million people were denied there GOD given RIGHT, to have a life and be given an opportunity because of a sickening murder referred to as abortion. 31 million people, WERE, wrong for no reason.  To imagine 31 million people infront of me, 31 million people infront of me and myself saying that I found nothing wrong with abortion, and don't view 31 million people having there opportunity taken away from them. That also makes me sick to my stomach. That as well makes me heartless, gutless, and cold.  That would make me plain heartless.

Hince, why I called you heartless, cause obviously, you could look all 31 million of them in the face and tell them, that you did not view abortion as being wrong.

Well, TheHated has certainly answered the anti-forgiveness question. ::)

Sorry I haven't been around to harrass you lately. I know you missed me.

Why not the girl who's had 3 abortions?  Let's let HER decide :)

You still going back and forth with this guy?  You're a dream come true for him!

Excellent negotiation...and let's let Charles Manson decide the penalty for homocide.  Mafia members decide the penatly for organized crime.  The memiors of Bonnie and Clyde to decide the penatly for armed Robby.

realize here that I could attack you in the same mannor you just attacked me, but I'll refrain from it.


???????


Why not the girl who's had 3 abortions? Let's let HER decide :)



How is this an attack???? ??? ::)

Well, TheHated has certainly answered the anti-forgiveness question. ::)

Sorry I haven't been around to harrass you lately. I know you missed me.


Just don't equate his actions with the rest of us, please.  The majority of us aren't anti-forgiveness.  We don't make it our cause to not forgive people who do things we perceive as wrong especially if it doesn't directly affect us.  We just pray for that person. :)

Love your sig line, by the way. ;)

Just don't equate his actions with the rest of us, please.  The majority of us aren't anti-forgiveness.  We don't make it our cause to not forgive people who do things we perceive as wrong especially if it doesn't directly affect us.  We just pray for that person. :)

Love your sig line, by the way. ;)


You better speak for yourself on the pray thing, cause a lot of people on this board don't fit into your "we".

Do I really need to say it again?  I DON'T APPROVE OF ABORTION!!!  However, I also don't approve of someone being able to tell another person what they can/cannot do with their body.  And, you're not going to like this, but until that child can survive outside the mother's body, BIOLOGICALLY, it's a parasite, until it is born, it IS part of the mother's body.  Do I personally feel that way?  No, but I can't ignore the facts.  Would I like to tell women that they shouldn't have an abortion?  Yes.  Have I?  Yes.  But, just as I can't seem to make you understand that I would rather that women didn't have abortions, I can't make someone feel something that they don't.  As much as I'd like to, I can't.


You find nothing wrong about abortion...you said it on an early post in here...yet you don't agree with it.  That in itself is an oxymoron..you must find something wrong and/or unmoral about it....

Well, TheHated has certainly answered the anti-forgiveness question. ::)

Sorry I haven't been around to harrass you lately. I know you missed me.


I am not antiforgiveness

I am antileteveryonedowhateverthehelltheywanttonomatterhowevilitisbecausealotofpeoplethinkchristianityinvolvesbeingpassivest.

I am not antiforgiveness

I am antileteveryonedowhateverthehelltheywanttonomatterhowevilitisbecausealotofpeoplethinkchristianityinvolvesbeingpassivest.


Jesus(the Christ) was a pacifist, to be a christian wouldn't you have to follow his pacifist teachings? He
who is without sin and all that.

Jesus(the Christ) was a pacifist, to be a christian wouldn't you have to follow his pacifist teachings? He
who is without sin and all that.


He got mad. He turned over the tables and told them that what they were doing was wrong.

Where did I say that "I find nothing wrong about abortion"?  methinks you're seeing things, or getting me confused with someone else....::)



He does seem to have a fixation on you.




Cat

He does seem to have a fixation on you.




Cat


Lucky for her we aren't jealous, eh?  ;D

He does seem to have a fixation on you (that is, Crazymom) - edited for clarity.




Cat


Yes, and one wonders why.  Me, Cat, and many others have defended a woman's right to control her own reproduction.  I have said on several occasions that I am pro-choice and anti abortion, which is essentially what Crazymom has been saying, yet she seems to be singled out for some reason.  I have made reference to the bible, which seems to suggest that life begins at birth (the breath of life) but have had no response, either biblical or logical.  I have refered to a fetus as a parasite, and again, no response.  Instead, what we witness is a "he said - she said" bickering which, to my mind does neither and real credit (sorry Crazymom, but there is a song that comes to mind, which I can't quite recall, but it has to do with a drunk who lies down in the street with a pig.  A snooty person says "you can tell one who boozes by the copmany he chooses, and the pig got up and slowly walked away").  I know you are having fun, but at some point, you might want to just walk away.  I find that is especially the case when one confronts someone who claims to know the mind of God.  By the way, this tormented Calvinists, who believe in predestination.  Naturally, they wanted to know if they were among the elect, but to try to know the mind of God was blasphimous.  Max Weber discusses this problem in The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism, an interesting book.  Yes, I have read it.

You better speak for yourself on the pray thing, cause a lot of people on this board don't fit into your "we".




I wasn't speaking of all the people on the board, I was speaking of Christians.  I think that was understood.

Yes, and one wonders why.  Me, Cat, and many others have defended a woman's right to control her own reproduction.  I have said on several occasions that I am pro-choice and anti abortion, which is essentially what Crazymom has been saying, yet she seems to be singled out for some reason.  I have made reference to the bible, which seems to suggest that life begins at birth (the breath of life) but have had no response, either biblical or logical.  I have refered to a fetus as a parasite, and again, no response.  Instead, what we witness is a "he said - she said" bickering which, to my mind does neither and real credit (sorry Crazymom, but there is a song that comes to mind, which I can't quite recall, but it has to do with a drunk who lies down in the street with a pig.  A snooty person says "you can tell one who boozes by the copmany he chooses, and the pig got up and slowly walked away").  I know you are having fun, but at some point, you might want to just walk away.  I find that is especially the case when one confronts someone who claims to know the mind of God.  By the way, this tormented Calvinists, who believe in predestination.  Naturally, they wanted to know if they were among the elect, but to try to know the mind of God was blasphimous.  Max Weber discusses this problem in The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism, an interesting book.  Yes, I have read it.


It says in the Bible God loves ALL of us, so explain to me....how those not even given a chance, don't fit to that category.

Just don't equate his actions with the rest of us, please.  The majority of us aren't anti-forgiveness.  We don't make it our cause to not forgive people who do things we perceive as wrong especially if it doesn't directly affect us.  We just pray for that person. :)

Love your sig line, by the way. ;)


Dag, you are the sweetest person I know. I would never equate you with what Harmonica stands for.


I am not antiforgiveness

I am antileteveryonedowhateverthehelltheywanttonomatterhowevilitisbecausealotofpeoplethinkchristianityinvolvesbeingpassivest.



You know what? I'm tired of you. I'm tired of all your BS, I'm tired of your supposed Christianity, I'm tired of you acting like being a hardcore Christian is the RIGHT WAY to be, and I'm tired of your attacks on people who didn't do a d*mned thing to you. I'm tired of whatever you post. So because I'm in mourning right now (I am, after all, a Catholic), this is the last thing I'll say to you. Go on your merry little way and keep on making enemies. It will bite you in the a$$ someday.

I end this by hoping that you will p*ss off ChuckyG and he will ban you. You have caused nothing but trouble. Hell, I'd prefer GWBush over you any day.

Dag, you are the sweetest person I know. I would never equate you with what Harmonica stands for.



Thanks, Jess and Kim.  :)

This thread is crazy!.....CRAZY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

STOP THE MADNESS!!!!!!!

:D
~Beth

Dag, you are the sweetest person I know. I would never equate you with what Harmonica stands for.


You know what? I'm tired of you. I'm tired of all your BS, I'm tired of your supposed Christianity, I'm tired of you acting like being a hardcore Christian is the RIGHT WAY to be, and I'm tired of your attacks on people who didn't do a d*mned thing to you. I'm tired of whatever you post. So because I'm in mourning right now (I am, after all, a Catholic), this is the last thing I'll say to you. Go on your merry little way and keep on making enemies. It will bite you in the a$$ someday.

I end this by hoping that you will p*ss off ChuckyG and he will ban you. You have caused nothing but trouble. Hell, I'd prefer GWBush over you any day.


And I'll say one last thing to you.

I didn't make you my enemey...you were already there.

last thing???


are you SURE that was your last thing?

So the topic is finished!?!?!?


*Rejoices*



~Beth

last thing???


are you SURE that was your last thing?

So the topic is finished!?!?!?


*Rejoices*



~Beth


You don't have to view it..

And beside, this forum is for debate on this kind of stuff..

*clears throat*


REMOVE MASSIVE STICK FROM BUTT!!!!




~Beth

Well seriously? If you don't want to hear about these topics..where are you in a part of the forum dedicated to them?

And I'll say one last thing to you.

I didn't make you my enemey...you were already there.


Because of having a different opinion. Give it a rest, I think everyone is tried of your drivel, no-one is going to agree with you 100% ever. That's what makes people different, having the ability to think for themselves.

you should try it sometime.

Because of having a different opinion. Give it a rest, I think everyone is tried of your drivel, no-one is going to agree with you 100% ever. That's what makes people different, having the ability to think for themselves.

you should try it sometime.


You know that's not the reason.

You know that's not the reason.





ok tell me then oh Hated one, what's the reason.

Oh why certainly


And what you said about only believing in a god that ranks below us is just retarded so I won't even touch that statement.

Get over yourself, little boy.

my son just took a dump and at this point, his poop is far more interesting than what you have to say.


Get your head out of the Bible and act HUMAN for once.

I sincerely hope you're offended by what I just said.  

Dude, if you had any brains whatsoever


Let's not forget that this is a one way street though,It was all a stricht me bashing her with absolutley nothing coming from the other direction and all that is written up above doesn't exist.


Now let me ask you a question.......If some one came on this board and talked of How he/she had so much respect and admiration for David "son of Sam" Berkowitz, and talked of how everything he did was so grand and righteous. How the way he louered women in and murdered them in various fashions was very interesting and admiring.   How he/she wants to be just like him. You would seriously respect that opinion with absolutley no problem whatsoever?  You'd be able to not saying anything even remotely rude or mean in the direction of that person?  

Oh why certainly

Let's not forget that this is a one way street though,It was all a stricht me bashing her with absolutley nothing coming from the other direction and all that is written up above doesn't exist.


Now let me ask you a question.......If some one came on this board and talked of How he/she had so much respect and admiration for David "son of Sam" Berkowitz, and talked of how everything he did was so grand and righteous. How the way he louered women in and murdered them in various fashions was very interesting and admiring.   How he/she wants to be just like him. You would seriously respect that opinion with absolutley no problem whatsoever?  You'd be able to not saying anything even remotely rude or mean in the direction of that person?  


First of all, you have me quoted as saying all that stuff, I didn't say any of that,

as for your hypothetical question,I don't think anyone here would like someone like that.

before you can get started and say that it's the same as abortion, let me once again tell you that we do not tell people to get them, we just don't butt into other peoples personal lives.

First of all, you have me quoted as saying all that stuff, I didn't say any of that,

as for your hypothetical question,I don't think anyone here would like someone like that.

before you can get started and say that it's the same as abortion, let me once again tell you that we do not tell people to get them, we just don't butt into other peoples personal lives.


Jessica is the one that said those things, you wanted to know why I said to her what I said. So I showed you why I said what I said.

Oh and you don't know that.....John Wayne Gacy was one of the most respected men not only in Waterloo, but as well as Chicago. he was greatly admired before people found out what he had done, and he was greatly admired by some, even after they had found out what he had done.

Jessica is the one that said those things, you wanted to know why I said to her what I said. So I showed you why I said what I said.

Oh and you don't know that.....John Wayne Gacy was one of the most respected men not only in Waterloo, but as well as Chicago. he was greatly admired before people found out what he had done, and he was greatly admired by some, even after they had found out what he had done.




doing sh*t like that wouldn't  get respect from me.

doing sh*t like that wouldn't  get respect from me.



What John Wayne Gacy did?  It wouldn't get respect from me either.

                            OR

Did you mean that a person coming on to this message board and talking up the likes of John Wayne Gacy or Ed Gein as being Gods that should be worshiped for what they did, and followed as examples....are you saying that "doing sheesh like that" would get respect from you?

What John Wayne Gacy did?  It wouldn't get respect from me either.

                             OR

Did you mean that a person coming on to this message board and talking up the likes of John Wayne Gacy or Ed Gein as being Gods that should be worshiped for what they did, and followed as examples....are you saying that "doing sh** like that" would get respect from you?


either way, the person himself or the person who tries to be like him

either way, the person himself or the person who tries to be like him


But it is his opinion, and it is his choice.

So what would you say to someone, if they did.

Cause I once ran into one, ran across him/her at a crimelibrary here on the internet.  He like me, was fascinated by Tobey Hooper, the screenwriter of "Texas Chainsaw Massacre".  WE talked of Ed Gein, the man of Plainfield, Wisconsin. It was a ver interesting conversastion, he knew more about Gein, than anyone that I had ever talked with.  At first I thought the person I was talking with, was just a person that like many of us, like me, likes to learn about serial killers and watch shows on them on A&E.  A person who would never do these things in his/her right mind, but yet loved reading Stephen King books as well as watching horror movies, as well as learning about learning about the likes of Ed Gein. However I found that he/she was much more into it, than that, and that he/she one day wanted to be like Gein.

I told the person that I hoped they were not being serious, and that if they were, what they were doing was wrong, and it was evil.

I shouldn't of done that, at least occording to the unwritten rules of this board. It was his/her view, his/her opinion, and above all his/her choice.

But it is his opinion, and it is his choice.

So what would you say to someone, if they did.

Cause I once ran into one, ran across him/her at a crimelibrary here on the internet.  He like me, was fascinated by Tobey Hooper, the screenwriter of "Texas Chainsaw Massacre".  WE talked of Ed Gein, the man of Plainfield, Wisconsin. It was a ver interesting conversastion, he knew more about Gein, than anyone that I had ever talked with.  At first I thought the person I was talking with, was just a person that like many of us, like me, likes to learn about serial killers and watch shows on them on A&E.  A person who would never do these things in his/her right mind, but yet loved reading Stephen King books as well as watching horror movies, as well as learning about learning about the likes of Ed Gein. However I found that he/she was much more into it, than that, and that he/she one day wanted to be like Gein.

I told the person that I hoped they were not being serious, and that if they were, what they were doing was wrong, and it was evil.

I shouldn't of done that, at least occording to the unwritten rules of this board. It was his/her view, his/her opinion, and above all his/her choice.


are you serious? How can you compare a "nut" who respects and wants to become a killer(of people already born) to a woman who for some reason chooses to have a pregnancy terminated.

are you serious? How can you compare a "nut" who respects and wants to become a killer(of people already born) to a woman who for some reason chooses to have a pregnancy terminated.


The same way I can compare the innocence of the victems.

But it is his opinion, and it is his choice.

So what would you say to someone, if they did.

Cause I once ran into one, ran across him/her at a crimelibrary here on the internet. He like me, was fascinated by Tobey Hooper, the screenwriter of "Texas Chainsaw Massacre". WE talked of Ed Gein, the man of Plainfield, Wisconsin. It was a ver interesting conversastion, he knew more about Gein, than anyone that I had ever talked with. At first I thought the person I was talking with, was just a person that like many of us, like me, likes to learn about serial killers and watch shows on them on A&E. A person who would never do these things in his/her right mind, but yet loved reading Stephen King books as well as watching horror movies, as well as learning about learning about the likes of Ed Gein. However I found that he/she was much more into it, than that, and that he/she one day wanted to be like Gein.

I shouldn't of done that, at least occording to the unwritten rules of this board. It was his/her view, his/her opinion, and above all his/her choice.



that statement is stupid I don't think anyone would approve or support that kind of view.

The same way I can compare the innocence of the victems.



there is a difference, one is born and one is not, one act is legal and one is not.

there is a difference, one is born and one is not, one act is legal and one is not.


Legal.....is the only thing that seperates.

This debate has become pointless.  There are those who belive that human life begins at conception and therefore, and logically based on that assumption, see abortion as murder.  There are those who believe that until a fetus can survive on its own out of the womb, it is a parasite, that until it takes "the breath of life" is not a human being, so for them, abortion is simply ridding the body of an unwanted leech.  These 2 views are irreconcilable, and no amount of argument, logic, bible thumping, hurraging, or invictive will change those views.  So, lets get back to the topic, which is written in the  subject line.  If we assume (and I think we can) that we are all sinners, isn't a Christian thing to expectr "forgivness of our trespasses, as we forgive those who have trespassed against us"?  I don't see much of that in this thread.

that statement is stupid I don't think anyone would approve or support that kind of view.


Hold on just a second.....what happened to respect and dignity for a post? What happened to an opinion is ones own? 

YOu mean to tell me you'd tell someone that they were a "nut" for thinking of serial killers like Ted Bundy or Anthony De Slavo as admirable men to look up to?  Then you'd turn around and tell someone that they can't view women who kill there babies as heartless?

Seems that theres a catch, that's unfair, and unbalanced.  If I'm to play fair, then so does everyone else.

This debate has become pointless.  There are those who belive that human life begins at conception and therefore, and logically based on that assumption, see abortion as murder.  There are those who believe that until a fetus can survive on its own out of the womb, it is a parasite, that until it takes "the breath of life" is not a human being, so for them, abortion is simply ridding the body of an unwanted leech.  These 2 views are irreconcilable, and no amount of argument, logic, bible thumping, hurraging, or invictive will change those views.  So, lets get back to the topic, which is written in the  subject line.  If we assume (and I think we can) that we are all sinners, isn't a Christian thing to expectr "forgivness of our trespasses, as we forgive those who have trespassed against us"?  I don't see much of that in this thread.


Don Carlos...always the one to have the answer. 

Don Carlos...always the one to have the answer. 


Again, I'm not sure what this means.  I have tried to be respectful of your moral beliefs re abortion, evan though I disagree with them.  You have answered my posts with contempt and sarcasm, like your "...." rather than addressing the issuews I raised, and here you do it again.  If you disagree with my analysis, fine, say so and say why.  Your little cheap shots grow tedious.

Again, I'm not sure what this means.  I have tried to be respectful of your moral beliefs re abortion, evan though I disagree with them.  You have answered my posts with contempt and sarcasm, like your "...." rather than addressing the issuews I raised, and here you do it again.  If you disagree with my analysis, fine, say so and say why.  Your little cheap shots grow tedious.


This last comment wasn't a cheap shot, no where near a cheap shot. Not even remotely in the same category as a cheap shot.

I was commenting on how your always the one with the final analysis. You take what was written, by me, by other members, sum it nicely, and come to your own final conclusion which whether or not it is right or wrong, you stand behind quite confidently.

Answer, may have been a word I could have replaced with something else, but it's good enough.

Don Carlos.....always the man to have the final in stone comment.

This last comment wasn't a cheap shot, no where near a cheap shot. Not even remotely in the same category as a cheap shot.

I was commenting on how your always the one with the final analysis. You take what was written, by me, by other members, sum it nicely, and come to your own final conclusion which whether or not it is right or wrong, you stand behind quite confidently.

Answer, may have been a word I could have replaced with something else, but it's good enough.

Don Carlos.....always the man to have the final in stone comment.


First off, my analysis wasn't "final" as your subsequent, totally noncommital post makes very clear.  Second, mt conclusions are always "right" for me, otherwise they would be different.  They may not be right for you, but you know, I couldn't care less.  However,  I always stand ready to discuss my "final conclusion" and stand willing to change my views when logic reason, and fact convince me that I was mistaken.  And, pray tell, what is a "stone comment"?

Hold on just a second.....what happened to respect and dignity for a post? What happened to an opinion is ones own? 

YOu mean to tell me you'd tell someone that they were a "nut" for thinking of serial killers like Ted Bundy or Anthony De Slavo as admirable men to look up to?  Then you'd turn around and tell someone that they can't view women who kill there babies as heartless?

Seems that theres a catch, that's unfair, and unbalanced.  If I'm to play fair, then so does everyone else.


I think it's fine for everyone to have their own opinion, but if someone tells me that Ted Bundy was a great man for being a serial killer, then In my opinion it's stupid. and I would tell them that they are a phycopath.
As i said before not all abortions are done as a form of birth control, some are done out of need.

Thanks, Crazy.  I have always assumed that when I was the last to post that I had convinced others that what I said made sense, or at least that they had no rebuttal, despite my attrocious spelling and terrible editing. ;)

I think it's fine for everyone to have their own opinion, but if someone tells me that Ted Bundy was a great man for being a serial killer, then In my opinion it's stupid. and I would tell them that they are a phycopath.
As i said before not all abortions are done as a form of birth control, some are done out of need.


now comes a question that is even more difficult....what is need?

To call a phycopath or not to call an phycopath that is the question.......to not call heartless...that is an answer?  This is not right.

Whatever happened to "hate the sin, not the sinner" ?  "Turn the other cheek"? And many other biblical quotes that deal with forgiveness and the like?   Sounds more like a smart-assed response to me ::) And, what's the problem with that? 


The sin, is what I hate.

Well as you always put so clearly cut, I NEVER said that.

I have no problem with that. It was a statement, plain and simple.

now comes a question that is even more difficult....what is need?

To call a phycopath or not to call an phycopath that is the question.......to not call heartless...that is an answer?  This is not right.



????????????????????????????????????????????

This becomes more eliptical, and more meaningless with every post.  I'm going to get some rum and move on.

????????????????????????????????????????????

This becomes more eliptical, and more meaningless with every post.  I'm going to get some rum and move on.


No it doesn't

I'm cleary told that, shoved down my throat that everyone on this board is fair, and that I'm the only one that ever says things that aren't fair.

Then by calling a girl heartless for having an abortion for various reasons....I'm out of line

But by calling an individual a phycopath, for admiration of Ted Bundy I'm not out of line?

WHO's not being fair?

Do you mean psychopath? not being facetious just checking  :)

Then why not say that the act of abortion is "heartless", why say that the person is "heartless", or someone who won't tell someone they CAN'T have one is "heartless"? You're not out of line for calling a girl who has an abortion heartless, you're out of line calling those who would not tell her she CAN'T heartless...


Psychopath.....directed toward the statement or person?

well the last part you said made sense, and So be it, I agree I shouldn't have called you heartless for not telling her she can't, but that wasn't what I was really pointing the heartless comment on.  I was putting on those who found nothing wrong with abortion.

You're not out of line for calling a girl who has an abortion heartless, you're out of line calling those who would not tell her she CAN'T heartless...


I agree with crazymom's statement, this is what I and others have been trying to put across to you all along.

But see, he can't comprehend that someone can think something is wrong, but support others in their right to do it...therefore, if someone supports a woman's right to have an abortion, it MUST mean they "approve" of it ::) 


I comprehend that just fine....

What I don't accept is the unfairness and unruley drawing of a thin line.

Look, I said that I'm not going to argue with you any more.  Your statements towards me & others who have said they personally don't think abortion is right, but would not deny a woman her right to have one on this (and other) threads make my point for me.


and just so we're clear.....you make my point for me.

What point would that be?


According to him, if we support women that decide to get an abortion, we should also respect and support people like Hitler or Bin Laden in what they did, since according to him, both are wrong.

What point would that be?


That on the biasis of discrimination due to conformity among members, rules and regulations only apply to those who challenge with an opposing view.

That on the biasis of discrimination due to conformity among members, rules and regulations only apply to those who challenge with an opposing view.




Can you clarify/

Whatever ::)


Whatever is right......but let's not forget the only reason I oppose abortion is male...and that statement in itself is not discriminating what so ever. (As maxwellsmart would say, "Since the sacasm")

Whatever is right......but let's not forget the only reason I oppose abortion is male...and that statement in itself is not discriminating what so ever. (As maxwellsmart would say, "Since the sacasm")



Male?????????

Male?????????


Typo.......should read, "because I am a male"

there we go.

Typo.......should read, "because I am a male"

there we go.


I don't think you oppose abortion just because you are male, lots of people male or female oppose abortion. and I don't challenge your opposing view, I challenge your attitude of saying we approve of it because we don't stop people from having abortions.

Actually here is where it comes from about males opposing abortion.

Subject: Re: A Pro Baby Murdering movie - Vera Drake
Written By: ChuckyG on 12/01/04 at 9:34:57

Harmonica & GWB, have either of you ever met someone who has performed or received an abortion?  Would you even know?  Didn't think so ::)


Didn't you notice their men? Of course they oppose abortion, it doesn't affect them.  They use religion as the pretext to inflict their religious beliefs on others.
.

And, let's not forget that it was a MALE who made that comment whom I don't believe has ever made his feelings on the subject known ::)


I've admitted my faults....and as long as I'm not attacked again, I'll leave it as that.

I've admitted my faults....and as long as I'm not attacked again, I'll leave it as that.


as long as you don't attack us again, there will be no need for us to defend ourselves.

as long as you don't attack us again, there will be no need for us to defend ourselves.


Keep the knife sharp, but out of my back, and we got ourselves a deal.

Keep the knife sharp, but out of my back, and we got ourselves a deal.



as long as that goes both ways

as long as that goes both ways


Oh, you know you have my word on that.

You just can't let it go without getting in one final "dig" can you ? ::)


And you can't admit where you were wrong.....but like any good fight, this pleases me. I always like walking away the better individual.

And you can't admit where you were wrong.....but like any good fight, this pleases me. I always like walking away the better individual.


Fine if that is the way you feel, but it doesn't seem to be the consensus.

Please tell me where I was wrong....if you can ::)


Crazymom, his profile says he is nineteen and sometimes, not always, but sometimes you just
gotta let someone know they are young, cocky, and a bit too full of themselves.  I'm sure the
Bible has something on respecting the wisdom of your elders.  He just needs time and a litlle
bit of the real world.  I hesitate to say meds, but I can see where they may be in his future.

And you can't admit where you were wrong.....but like any good fight, this pleases me. I always like walking away the better individual.


I don't think she has done anything wrong.

Crazymom, his profile says he is nineteen and sometimes, not always, but sometimes you just
gotta let someone know they are young, cocky, and a bit too full of themselves.  I'm sure the
Bible has something on respecting the wisdom of your elders.  He just needs time and a litlle
bit of the real world.  I hesitate to say meds, but I can see where they may be in his future.


I am not arrogant at all.

I ask for fairness, and for the rules to apply to everyone. Not JUST me.  I guess that's too much to ask for. I admire Martin Luther King Jr a great great deal, but unfortunately I no longer  have the stamina nor patients to demand equal treatment.

Please tell me where I was wrong....if you can ::)

And, FYI, getting in the last "dig" or word does NOT make YOU the better individual.


I don't know why I even try with you.  I apologize to you. Say where I was wrong.  I guess I was too stupid to believe that you would apologize or admit where you were wrong. 

I like being a nice guy most of the time, but people like you make it awful hard, very very hard. By dishing out as much as you take but washing your hands clean of the shovel then by proving over and over again that the saying is indeed true.  Nice guys do finish last.

Crazymom, his profile says he is nineteen and sometimes, not always, but sometimes you just
gotta let someone know they are young, cocky, and a bit too full of themselves.  I'm sure the
Bible has something on respecting the wisdom of your elders.  He just needs time and a litlle
bit of the real world.  I hesitate to say meds, but I can see where they may be in his future.


might as well point this out while I'm ahead right now.

Do you see how DanootaAndMe discriminated against me? Or is that going to be somehow covered up like every other putdown and negative comment towards me.

I must be niave and stupid, and above all cocky just because I'm 19, and if I were 91, then I'd be old, not with the times and senile.

Apologize for what?  Not agreeing with you?  I was simply asking where I was wrong, because I don't see where I WAS, but obviously you do.  Not ONCE have I called you a name, but you have consistently used the phrase "people like you" (meaning me) to describe people who, in your opinion, are evil.  Whenever someone else calls you on something, you bring MY name into it.  You attribute things said by other people to ME.  And I'M the one who should apologize?  The ONLY reason YOU apologized to me is because someone else proved you were wrong.  Now, if anyone else wants to PROVE ME wrong, show me where I lied, then I'll gladly apologize.....until then, my lips are sealed


Your lips will be sealed regardless

you just keep on having your, "Don't you dare tell me the way it is, but I'll glady tell you the way it is" attitude.  You keep on speaking loud and clear for people to respect and view your opinion as valid, but make sure to make others opinions out to be nothing more than  a mixture of  make believe and made up analogies out of their own mind with no validness behind them  whatsoever.  Let's not forget that everything you say is really the way it is, and if anyone has the answer it is you.  Let's not forget that for some odd reason when it comes down to being attacked, no one better dare do it to you, but since we're dealing with a subject where the members for the most part are all one sided, and we have practically just me over on the other side, it makes it perfectly Ok to bash me, cause no one in your biased community will speak out against it, because let's remember I'm in the wrong, just because of the mere fact that I add that teeny tiny pendelem swing.

might as well point this out while I'm ahead right now.

Do you see how DanootaAndMe discriminated against me? Or is that going to be somehow covered up like every other putdown and negative comment towards me.

I must be niave and stupid, and above all cocky just because I'm 19, and if I were 91, then I'd be old, not with the times and senile.




How can you take DanootaandMe's comment to another person to be discriminatory towards you?. I use words like that all the time, my oldest kid hears it, I tell her she has a teenage cocky attitude and to have respect for her elders. Nothing wrong with that kind of statement.

How can you take DanootaandMe's comment to another person to be discriminatory towards you?. I use words like that all the time, my oldest kid hears it, I tell her she has a teenage cocky attitude and to have respect for her elders. Nothing wrong with that kind of statement.


Then there is nothing wrong with me calling you biased.

Then there is nothing wrong with me calling you biased.



how am i biased?

how am i biased?


Are you kidding?  Me being Niave and cocky based on my age alone is no where near a qualified as you being one sided on an issue, finding people that are in the same boat as you, then coming out and saying how it is, and how what I say, it is not.

Are you kidding?  Me being Niave and cocky based on my age alone is no where near a qualified as you being one sided on an issue, finding people that are in the same boat as you, then coming out and saying how it is, and how what I say, it is not.


please type your sentences so that I could figure out what you are trying to say. Waht am I supposed to  be qualified on? And the rest of that statement???

please type your sentences so that I could figure out what you are trying to say. Waht am I supposed to  be qualified on? And the rest of that statement???


if my age makes me niave......being one sided and conforming based on agreement, and not, I repeat NOT what is right or wrong, makes you biased.

if my age makes me niave......being one sided and conforming based on agreement, and not, I repeat NOT what is right or wrong, makes you biased.


My views are not, I repeat NOT based on agreement. But on what I believe.

My views are not, I repeat NOT based on agreement. But on what I believe.


That's not the issue. The issue is that because your views match up with other board members on this forum, you group together, and treat me like a lesser because my views aren't with in that circle.

That's not the issue. The issue is that because your views match up with other board members on this forum, you group together, and treat me like a lesser because my views aren't with in that circle.


That is the issue, because I agree with you to some extent, I have already said that I don't approve of abortion. But I also agree with crazymom that it soesn't give me the right to tell people what to do.
We don't treat you like a lesser(what ever that is) because your views are different, we stated our opinion and had to defend our views to you.

The sin, is what I hate.


Hey, Ted--

Oh gawd! Not that old saw--"love the sinner, hate the sin"!  As far as I can tell, the true rendering of this for evangelicals would read, "hate the sinner, and love the sin for being a conduit for your raison d'etre, hating sinners"!
::)

I never once said ANYONE HAD TO respect my opinion.  And, other than the FU comment (which has already been explained and was apologized for long ago), when did I attack you or anyone else?  Now, as I said (because I'm a woman of my word), if you can show me where I am wrong or where I lied, I WILL apologize, it's happened before and I'm sure it will happen again.  See, some of us have no problem admitting when we're wrong, but we sure as hell won't do it just to appease someone.  Especially someone who's been hell bent on making me feel like an evil piece of crap.
And, if you don't like the "bias" of this community, noone's forcing you to be here.  There have been others who have agreed with you, but you don't see that.  They have come and made their opinions known without alienating their friends.  All you see is what you WANT to see.


Alright, Alright.  Obviously you don't want this to end. Obviously you dont' want me to be sorry, and obviously you don't want me to stop fighting with you.  I was about to sign my peace paper, but then you just had to come and torch my front door.

So, you think we all decided to gang up on you because you're 19 and none of us really feel the way we say we do?  If you honestly believe that, then you ARE naive ::)


NO.......Jumping Jahosaphat! you gained up on me, because I didn't confirm!

NO.......Jumping Jahosaphat! you gained up on me, because I didn't confirm!



ahh, I think you are talking to yourself now, you must be looking in a mirror, you b!tched at us because we have different views than you.

That is the issue, because I agree with you to some extent, I have already said that I don't approve of abortion. But I also agree with crazymom that it soesn't give me the right to tell people what to do.
We don't treat you like a lesser(what ever that is) because your views are different, we stated our opinion and had to defend our views to you.


This stupid, this is stupid, for me to try and make something clear and solid. I already stated exactly what's happening to me. A part of me was thinking that there must be some dignity or integrity within you to admit to whats going on. Dam me for always looking for the best in a person. You'll have to excuse me for that, it's a bad trait of mine.

PLEASE lets agree to disagree.

That is the issue, because I agree with you to some extent, I have already said that I don't approve of abortion. But I also agree with crazymom that it doesn't give me the right to tell people what to do.We don't treat you like a lesser(what ever that is) because your views are different, we stated our opinion and had to defend our views to you.


Do you see the bolded print, That is what we have been trying to tell you, without having you jump on us.

PLEASE lets agree to disagree.

NO! LET'S NOT!  GRRRR!
>:(


;)

This stupid, this is stupid, for me to try and make something clear and solid. I already stated exactly what's happening to me. A part of me was thinking that there must be some dignity or integrity within you to admit to whats going on. Dam me for always looking for the best in a person. You'll have to excuse me for that, it's a bad trait of mine.


What's going on is that we are defending ourselves, because you are insinuating that we are cruel and evil for not butting into other peoples lives to tell them how to live.

ahh, I think you are talking to yourself now, you must be looking in a mirror, you b!tched at us because we have different views than you.


I believe strongly in God....not because of the santa clause effect! Not because Someone else told me to.

I appose abortion...not because I'm young, not because I'm a male, not because I don't know whats really going on out there in the world. Not because I dont' understand situations at all.


I didn't <a  style='text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px double;' href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=24&k=make%20up" onmouseover="window.status='make up'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">make up</a> any stories along the way, everything I ever said really happened, yet I'm treated as if I just made it up.  I did not make it up. I didn't make up a single one of them.

My statements, stories, beliefs, and opinions are just as valid as yours, just as valid as crazmom's, just as valid as the Dudes, yet they get treated as if their below yours.

This is what got me so ticked off in the first place, back on the very first topic about abortion. The very first topic that was posted.  Crazymom's views valid, correct, and without flaw.  Her opinion's are no better than mine! No better. But she acted like they were, I tried to point this out to her, but she would have none of it, so I got mad.

What's going on is that we are defending ourselves, because you are insinuating that we are cruel and evil for not butting into other peoples lives to tell them how to live.


And your insinuating that it's perfectly fine for me to look at a rapist and call him scum, without knowing his background.  That'd be ok, it would not be discrimination against males.

However, if I look at a girl that had an abortion and call her scum, without knowing her background. That would not be ok, and it would be discrimination.

Excuse me, but I was the one who stated earlier that I didn't want to argue with you anymore, but you sucked me back in with your smartaleck comments ::)


I suppose when you threw that cheap shot, my nose did break YOUR nail.

I believe strongly in God....not because of the santa clause effect! Not because Someone else told me to.

I appose abortion...not because I'm young, not because I'm a male, not because I don't know whats really going on out there in the world. Not because I dont' understand situations at all.


I didn't <a  style='text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px double;' href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=24&k=make%20up" onmouseover="window.status='make up'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">make up</a> any stories along the way, everything I ever said really happened, yet I'm treated as if I just made it up.  I did not make it up. I didn't make up a single one of them.

My statements, stories, beliefs, and opinions are just as valid as yours, just as valid as crazmom's, just as valid as the Dudes, yet they get treated as if their below yours.

This is what got me so ticked off in the first place, back on the very first topic about abortion. The very first topic that was posted.  Crazymom's views valid, correct, and without flaw.  Her opinion's are no better than mine! No better. But she acted like they were, I tried to point this out to her, but she would have none of it, so I got mad.



No one said you shouldn't believe in God, certainly not me- I believe in him myself. No one said your stories were made up. Your views and opinions are just as valid as ours, and believe or not I respect your opinion.
What is going on here is that when we stated our views, you made it sound like we must approve since we do nothing to stop it.

as for crazymom acting as if her views were better-when you tried to get a point acroos you made it sound like she had to forgive the evil disgusting thing that raped her. that's why she got mad. That's where I started to get mad too, because there is nothing that will ever make me forgive that thing that raped me.

Whatever makes the two of you happy, cause right or wrong, that's what this has come down to.

And your insinuating that it's perfectly fine for me to look at a rapist and call him scum, without knowing his background.  That'd be ok, it would not be discrimination against males.

However, if I look at a girl that had an abortion and call her scum, without knowing her background. That would not be ok, and it would be discrimination.


Calling a rapist scum, is not discrimating against all males. calling him scum would be telling it like it is.(THERE IS NO REASON FOR RAPE OR TO APPROVE OF IT)

and yes calling every girl that had an abortion scum would be discrimination, because she might have needed one to save her life, or maybe the fetus was already dead. or even perhaps a tubal pregnancy.

Calling a rapist scum, is not discrimating against all males. calling him scum would be telling it like it is.(THERE IS NO REASON FOR RAPE OR TO APPROVE OF IT)

and yes calling every girl that had an abortion scum would be discrimination, because she might have needed one to save her life, or maybe the fetus was already dead. or even perhaps a tubal pregnancy.


Got to be clear...got to be clear.

Ok a girl that went out whoreing one night, got screwd by 5 members of the football team within an hour, not using protection. Ended up finding out she was pregnant about a week and a half later and she had an abortion.  Would she be scum?

Cause there better not be a reason to approve of that, cause if there is, then you are F'd up.

Got to be clear...got to be clear.

Ok a girl that went out whoreing one night, got screwd by 5 members of the football team within an hour, not using protection. Ended up finding out she was pregnant about a week and a half later and she had an abortion.  Would she be scum?

Cause there better not be a reason to approve of that, cause if there is, then you are F'd up.


1. I am not fudgeed up,
2. No I would not approve of what she has done, but that still doesn't give me the right to tell her what to do.

btw you used the scenario of without knowing the backround, the above quote uses a backround picture.

1. I am not fudgeed up,
2. No I would not approve of what she has done, but that still doesn't give me the right to tell her what to do.

btw you used the scenario of without knowing the backround, the above quote uses a backround picture.


Then from the rape point of view

1. I disaprove of what he did
2. I have no right to tell him what to do.

The question is here, what sort of life is the offspring of such a mad coupling like to have? Surely, if you believe that an unborn child has a soul and is therefore innocent in the eyes of God, it would better for it to go straight to heaven than face a potential hellish life with a mother like that? I dunno, I'm not really gonna get into this as I realise that everyone has very strong views and has every right to hold them.

I agree, which is the point we've been trying to make


1/32 of the time...on your point anyway.

So what if it does become illegal...cause so far that's the only thing that truley seperates abortion from other murder, then what would your opinion be.

The question is here, what sort of life is the offspring of such a mad coupling like to have? Surely, if you believe that an unborn child has a soul and is therefore innocent in the eyes of God, it would better for it to go straight to heaven than face a potential hellish life with a mother like that? I dunno, I'm not really gonna get into this as I realise that everyone has very strong views and has every right to hold them.


Who says that the souls get to go to Heaven? Occording to the only source that a Heaven exist, the only way to enter is through excepting Jesus christ as your saviour.  That's just one thing that those souls are cheated out of, the opportunity to do so.

If 31 Million souls appeared infront of me, and all 31 Million said to me, "I'm glad I was murdered and I did not get a chance at life. If I was my mother, I would have killed me too."  Then I'd shut up and say alright. but if 1 just 1 came up to me and said, "I was wronged, I was cheated out of life.  My mother wronged me." Then what I do was worth it.  Out of 31 Million, the chances of at least 1, do stack in my favor.

Who says that the souls get to go to Heaven? Occording to the only source that a Heaven exist, the only way to enter is through excepting Jesus christ as your saviour.  That's just one thing that those souls are cheated out of, the opportunity to do so.



Does that mean you believe that your god considers the foetus a sinner not worthy of entering heaven?

Then from the rape point of view

1. I disaprove of what he did
2. I have no right to tell him what to do.


ok, this is what we have trying to show you, we have different views about stopping abortion, so you throw rape in our face, saying stuff like this. This kind of statement is what started the whole argument in the first place.
There is a big difference between rape and abortion.

so why should I bother ::)


Because we need to kill some time before going out and murdering some more small children..

Who says that the souls get to go to Heaven? Occording to the only source that a Heaven exist, the only way to enter is through excepting Jesus christ as your saviour.  That's just one thing that those souls are cheated out of, the opportunity to do so.



I was taught that all souls come from heaven, so therefore, wouldn't those souls already know Jesus.

Does that mean you believe that your god considers the foetus a sinner not worthy of entering heaven?


I ask a question and I stated a fact about what the bible does say.  I never said where I personally stand.

I'm going to ignore your first statement as it makes no sense.

We've been through the second statement before and you didn't get it the first umpteen times I explained it so why should I bother ::)



Trying to get along with you is a lot like taming a Rattlesnake.  You give it a rat, and it turns around and bites you.  Poisonous too.

ok, this is what we have trying to show you, we have different views about stopping abortion, so you throw rape in our face, saying stuff like this. This kind of statement is what started the whole argument in the first place.
There is a big difference between rape and abortion.


That's your opinion...your opinion and I'm supposed to respect that.

but it's your opinion, and it's no better than an opinion of mine, which is not respected.

I think Abortion is wrong, I think it is evil.  I have just as much right to think lowly of a woman that murdered her son or daughter as I do a man that raped a woman.  You can not tell me, that I don't, but you do.  Then you get mad at me, when I do the same thing back to you.

It is my opinion that abortion in most cases, not all but most cases is an evil, selfish, satanic act that is legalized in our society. I am NOT alone in my thoughts, and those who share my opinion are NOT niave, stupid, or unware of whats going on, although we're treated like it.


Respect is a two way road, I just walked from the right side of the road, and stopped dead in the middle.  I can see you and crazymom way down the road as far left as you can possibly get. Keep on waving me to come down and join you, my feet are planted.

That's your opinion...your opinion and I'm supposed to respect that.

but it's your opinion, and it's no better than an opinion of mine, which is not respected.

I think Abortion is wrong, I think it is evil.  I have just as much right to think lowly of a woman that murdered her son or daughter as I do a man that raped a woman.  You can not tell me, that I don't, but you do.  Then you get mad at me, when I do the same thing back to you.

It is my opinion that abortion in most cases, not all but most cases is an evil, selfish, satanic act that is legalized in our society. I am NOT alone in my thoughts, and those who share my opinion are NOT niave, stupid, or unware of whats going on, although we're treated like it.


Respect is a two way road, I just walked from the right side of the road, and stopped dead in the middle.   I can see you and crazymom way down the road as far left as you can possibly get. Keep on waving me to come down and join you, my feet are planted.




As I have said before there is no reason for rape, but there are plenty of reasons for abortion. You have to look at the reason before condemning someone and if I am not mistaken-condemning someone is usually left up to God. oops my mistake you think you are him.

That's funny!  You trying to get along with me ;D  You trying to get along with ANYONE who disagrees with your opinion ;D  Respect is a two way street buddy, if you don't give it, you don't get it.




I like that.


~Beth

Way back on page 23 of this thread I pointed out that this debate is pointless.  7 pages later it still goes on.  Some of use believe that human life begins at birth, and therefore abortion, while unfortunate, isn't murder.  Others believe that human life begins at the moment of conception, and therefore abortion is murder.  These views are irroconcilable, there is no middle ground.  That said, I'm outta here.

That's funny!  You trying to get along with me ;D  You trying to get along with ANYONE who disagrees with your opinion ;D  Respect is a two way street buddy, if you don't give it, you don't get it.


I thought respect was earned a mutual agreement.

but occording to the standards you have set...I must

Think and show curtiousy to everything you say. Think that is 100% correct without fault.  Stand by with a smile as you make me and my opinions out to be make believe, unvalid, and stupid.  Stand by and agree with you when you tell me that the only reason I view things a certain way is because I'm blinded by a book known as the Bible, and I have morals and values which clearly make me out of touch with reality. 

I think I understand now, you sheesh all over me, and I dont' so much as blow wind in your direction....if that's respect...I understand now.

I thought respect was earned a mutual agreement.

but occording to the standards you have set...I must

Think and show curtiousy to everything you say. Think that is 100% correct without fault.  Stand by with a smile as you make me and my opinions out to be make believe, unvalid, and stupid.  Stand by and agree with you when you tell me that the only reason I view things a certain way is because I'm blinded by a book known as the Bible, and I have morals and values which clearly make me out of touch with reality. 

I think I understand now, you sh** all over me, and I dont' so much as blow wind in your direction....if that's respect...I understand now.


You don't blow wind in our direction, think again. You have your opinions and expect us to follow them, when we oppose you call us evil.

Way back on page 23 of this thread I pointed out that this debate is pointless.  7 pages later it still goes on.  Some of use believe that human life begins at birth, and therefore abortion, while unfortunate, isn't murder.  Others believe that human life begins at the moment of conception, and therefore abortion is murder.  These views are irroconcilable, there is no middle ground.  That said, I'm outta here.


Then so be it....but if I am to be made out to be a moron, a guy that has no idea what it's like in the real world, and radical because I put my morals and values ahead of my personal wants, when I believe life begins at conception, I will not stand and listen to the B.S....and I will retailiate, and I sure as hell won't listen to anybody call a person like Ralph anything whatsoever negative.

Then so be it....but if I am to be made out to be a moron, a guy that has no idea what it's like in the real world, and radical because I put my morals and values ahead of my personal wants, when I believe life begins at conception, I will not stand and listen to the B.S....and I will retailiate, and I sure as hell won't listen to anybody call a person like Ralph anything whatsoever negative.


TheHated, once being a Christian myself I understand where you are coming from on Abortion.  For the most part I am Pro-life, I think the only valid reasons to have an abortion are life, rape, and incest.  With partial-birth only life, that stuff is truly brutal. 

You don't blow wind in our direction, think again. You have your opinions and expect us to follow them, when we oppose you call us evil.


Girls who have abortions are not evil, they are not selfish....I oppose to that, and say yes they are...where's my respect? Huh? where is it? I get called names, that are not true and I get made out to be what I am not.

Girls who have abortions are evil, they are selfish.....Girls who have abortions are not evil, they are not selfish......Both are solid statements, yet only one according to you should get respect.

I thought respect was earned a mutual agreement.

but occording to the standards you have set...I must

Think and show curtiousy to everything you say. Think that is 100% correct without fault.  Stand by with a smile as you make me and my opinions out to be make believe, unvalid, and stupid.  Stand by and agree with you when you tell me that the only reason I view things a certain way is because I'm blinded by a book known as the Bible, and I have morals and values which clearly make me out of touch with reality. 

I think I understand now, you sh** all over me, and I dont' so much as blow wind in your direction....if that's respect...I understand now.
THAT IS F***ING BULLS***.
WE GOTTA RECONNECT YOUR BRAIN TO YOUR MOUTH, BECAUSE YOU'RE TALKING OUT YOUR BUTT(YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN) That last thing was quoted by Jake the snake on WWE raw!

TheHated, once being a Christian myself I understand where you are coming from on Abortion.   For the most part I am Pro-life, I think the only valid reasons to have an abortion are life, rape, and incest.  With partial-birth only life, that stuff is truly brutal. 


Like anything, it does have it's time and place, but that clearly isn't the situation, and  31 million times is way over the limit.

guess what? 
Whitewolf is my mother, and yes I am the Daughter that she was told to have an abortion with. 
I'm still living.
MY mother chose not to listen to them and had me even though I was the child she had to the rappest and she was only 18!
so there, put that in your pipe and smoke it!

I thought respect was earned a mutual agreement.

but occording to the standards you have set...I must

Think and show curtiousy to everything you say. Think that is 100% correct without fault.  Stand by with a smile as you make me and my opinions out to be make believe, unvalid, and stupid.  Stand by and agree with you when you tell me that the only reason I view things a certain way is because I'm blinded by a book known as the Bible, and I have morals and values which clearly make me out of touch with reality. 

I think I understand now, you sh** all over me, and I dont' so much as blow wind in your direction....if that's respect...I understand now.
THAT IS F***ING BULLS***.
WE GOTTA RECONNECT YOUR BRAIN TO YOUR MOUTH, BECAUSE YOU'RE TALKING OUT YOUR BUTT(YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN) That last thing was quoted by Jake the snake on WWE raw!


Back in the times of slavery in the South I would have been hung as a radical...

"Slavery is WRong! Free them!" I would Yell....."No you are wrong, we need slavery" says Crazymom, "who else is gonna work in the cotton fields for free."    "As long as we don't whip them" say's whitewolf  "That's plain heartless! Cruel!" I yell back  "I don't own slaves, but I ain't gonna tell another person they can't own them" Crazymom says with a since of arrogance to her voice.  "I don't believe this, they have a right to be free."  "A black person is not worthy of freedom, only a white person is" Don Carlos explains to me.  "I refuse to stand by and let this happen!" I say again  "but you must" say's Crazymom  "No!" I say as I start to get mad, "no!"  "Hang him!" yells Chica, "Slavery FOREVER!!!!" "Burn him by the stake" yells Jessica "Slavery RULES!!! Slavery RUlES!!!" The crowd cheers as I stand in disbelief, surrounded by black men, women, and children who I stand by and demand their right to be free.


Say whatever you want, if we were back in this time. There would be a good, very good chance, that that's the way it'd be.

and I'd be hung before long, simply because I wasn't with the crowd.

guess what? 
Whitewolf is my mother, and yes I am the Daughter that she was told to have an abortion with. 
I'm still living.
MY mother chose not to listen to them and had me even though I was the child she had to the rappest and she was only 18!
so there, put that in your pipe and smoke it!


You wanna hear how many stories I know about women that killed there kids out of evil selfish acts?  You got time to hear them all?

I already told your mother that I admired her for what she did. That pipe was smoked a long time ago.

thanks for including me!

Like anything, it does have it's time and place, but that clearly isn't the situation, and  31 million times is way over the limit.



BINGO, that's what we have been trying to say, it is needed in some cases. Just because we don't stop the ones that don't need it does not make us evil or approving in any way.

You wanna hear how many stories I know about women that killed there kids out of evil selfish acts?  You got time to hear them all?

I already told your mother that I admired her for what she did. That pipe was smoked a long time ago.

Yah but you're still bugging her to believe what you do, and conform her into your beliefs!

Back in the times of slavery in the South I would have been hung as a radical...

"Slavery is WRong! Free them!" I would Yell....."No you are wrong, we need slavery" says Crazymom, "who else is gonna work in the cotton fields for free."    "As long as we don't whip them" say's whitewolf  "That's plain heartless! Cruel!" I yell back  "I don't own slaves, but I ain't gonna tell another person they can't own them" Crazymom says with a since of arrogance to her voice.  "I don't believe this, they have a right to be free."  "A black person is not worthy of freedom, only a white person is" Don Carlos explains to me.  "I refuse to stand by and let this happen!" I say again  "but you must" say's Crazymom  "No!" I say as I start to get mad, "no!"  "Hang him!" yells Chica, "Slavery FOREVER!!!!" "Burn him by the stake" yells Jessica "Slavery RULES!!! Slavery RUlES!!!" The crowd cheers as I stand in disbelief, surrounded by black men, women, and children who I stand by and demand their right to be free.


Say whatever you want, if we were back in this time. There would be a good, very good chance, that that's the way it'd be.

and I'd be hung before long, simply because I wasn't with the crowd.



Man you have really flipped you wig this time. Now you are comparing slavery to abortion. I don't know, there is a big jump between the two.

THAT IS F***ING BULLS***.
WE GOTTA RECONNECT YOUR BRAIN TO YOUR MOUTH, BECAUSE YOU'RE TALKING OUT YOUR BUTT(YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN) That last thing was quoted by Jake the snake on WWE raw!




stay out of it

Make up your damn mind and get with the program.  
It's your opinion and belief, and we have ours.  Stop with this nonsense and get a life!

stay out of it


NO MOM, GO AWAY! I HAVE AN OPINION TOO!

Yah but you're still bugging her to believe what you do, and conform her into your beliefs!


No I'm not and most of my comments are directed towards Crazymom who I suppose subconsciously believes her beliefs ARE, and everyone elses are just mere random thoughts.

No I'm not and most of my comments are directed towards Crazymom who I suppose subconsciously believes her beliefs ARE, and everyone elses are just mere random thoughts.
NO, I have read Her posts and she seems actually sensable, your are the one pushing your beliefs on us and i'm sick of it.

Man you have really flipped you wig this time. Now you are comparing slavery to abortion. I don't know, there is a big jump between the two.



Both are wrong.  Comparrison enough for me.

Make up your darn mind and get with the program.  
It's your opinion and belief, and we have ours.  Stop with this nonsense and get a life!


My mind is made up, It was made up a long time ago.  I don't fear the rejection of others, I don't change my beliefs in fear that I might get caught being outta line with conformity. I certainly don't hide behind anyone or anything either.  I stand beside my beliefs, not behind them.

How much of my morality and ethnicity and values do I have to give up for that so called life you want me to get?  I'd rather have my morals.

Why me?  Please answer me that.  Others on this thread have been more offensive towards you, yet you continue to single me out of the crowd?  And, obviously, you haven't been comprehending what I've said:

I AGREE THAT ABORTION IS NOT RIGHT If I did, I would've had one the 2 times I found myself unmarried and pregnant (once I had a miscarriage, the other is my oldest son).  The only point that we disagree on is that I will not tell someone else what they can/cannot do when it comes to this subject.  I feel that it's a personal decision that THEY have to make, I cannot make it for them.  Just as I cannot tell them what religion to follow, what cologne to wear, whom they should marry.  And, if they can live with their decision, then who am I to tell them that they're evil?  I can tell them until I'm blue in the face, but unless they feel it THEMSELVES, it's not going to make a darned bit of difference.  I am not God, I cannot judge them because lord knows I am not perfect.  You don't agree with me, I could care less, but when you call me EVIL and HEARTLESS for not telling a woman what she should/shouldn't do with her body, THAT'S when I get upset.  You still have not shown me ONCE where I called YOU a name.  SO, who's the one who thinks the other's view is invalid?  Who's the one who's trying to lessen the other's opinion?



You didn't want me to get on your case, then you should have never put Ralph down. And go ahead deny it again......but just for clarification...


HERE IS WHY I SINGLE YOU OUT


Why do I single you out?  It's very simple really.


Eldudrino for example has critized me, and put down my beliefs.  He knows he did it, he admits to doing it.  He's sorry for some of it, and he's not sorry for some of it. Same goes for me to him.  We came to the conclusion that we do not agree with everything, and we have in the past and will again in the future argue about things.  We met eachother half way, and things are going good now.

same goes with apricot, who I'll be the first to  admit I threw more at than he did me.  Yet he denies nothing, and doesn't make himself out to be impeccable, therefore I have no reason to single him out.

Then we come to you, and just you.
you,according to  you are perfect without flaw, and you want me to say I alone was in the wrong, I alone was the a$$hole. I was at times in the  wrong, and at times I was an a$$hole, I have nothing to hide.  However 100% of this isn't all me, and I won't take 100% responsibilty.

Both are wrong.  Comparrison enough for me.


So..

Useing that fabulous logic we can do the following.

Execute somebody that smokes a joint.. or... kills 30 people.

Microsoft keeping me waiting for 45 minutes is wrong.. thus.. they should all be executed, after all, it's wrong, and so is murder.

Let's think before we spout.


How much of my morality and ethnicity and values do I have to give up for that so called life you want me to get? I'd rather have my morals.


Actually.. i'm perfectly happy for you to have the life you want.. leaves me more of a chance to get all the money, women and fake respect that i am 100% sure that you will reject  ::)

No I'm not and most of my comments are directed towards Crazymom who I suppose subconsciously believes her beliefs ARE, and everyone elses are just mere random thoughts.


It just seems that whenever anyone disagrees with you, you go back to Crazymom. Just give it a rest already. This thread is about Christians being anti-forgiveness and you can't seem to let it drop about some idea that you think Crazymom had said. It may in fact had been someone else. And I really don't want you quoting me and saying, "But she said...."


ENOUGH ALREADY


Just drop it.


And Crazymom, please don't play this game with him anymore. I think there are many people on this message board who are just tired of this. Both of you-just move on.

And if either one of you continue with this, I am going to request to Chucky to lock this thread.

Now both of you go take a cold shower and cool off.



Cat

Both are wrong.  Comparrison enough for me.


So by saying this, everyone that does something that is considered wrong, you would call them scum?

Please answer this one and not ignore it.

So..

Useing that fabulous logic we can do the following.

Execute somebody that smokes a joint.. or... kills 30 people.

Microsoft keeping me waiting for 45 minutes is wrong.. thus.. they should all be executed, after all, it's wrong, and so is murder.

Let's think before we spout.

Actually.. i'm perfectly happy for you to have the life you want.. leaves me more of a chance to get all the money, women and fake respect that i am 100% sure that you will reject  ::)


You can have that fake respect....you can have those types of women.....you can have that money.

And abortion, isn't smoking a joint.

And Murdering someone, isn't putting a virus on there computer.

So by saying this, everyone that does something that is considered wrong, you would call them scum?

Please answer this one and not ignore it.


Let's take a man's Choice, that is his choice that I would consider scum.

If a man get's a girl pregnant. It is his decision, his choice on rather or not he stays with her or he runs. Now like a girl who choses to give birth to the life inside of her, I have nothing but the outmost respect for a man that decides to stay by his girlfriend despite what personal setbacks he believes it may cause him.  Like any girl that has an abortion for selfish reasons, I despise the guy that takes off running from his girlfriend that he impregnanted.  I personally believe like in most abortion cases, that the guy should be punished for the wrong he committed.  I believe it shouldn't be a matter of choice for him, nor do I show any respect for him when he leaves the girl with a baby or muder on the way.  A man like that, to me is Scum. Pure scum.

I don't have a pass fail system when I look at what is scum and what isn't.

Charles Manson is Scum.....So on a Grade Level for Scum he get's an A+
David Berkowitz is scum.....On a grade level for Scum he get's a A-

Sammy whole stole Jimmy's Milk at lunch....get's a F on the scum level.

Let's take a man's Choice, that is his choice that I would consider scum.

If a man get's a girl pregnant. It is his decision, his choice on rather or not he stays with her or he runs. Now like a girl who choses to give birth to the life inside of her, I have nothing but the outmost respect for a man that decides to stay by his girlfriend despite what personal setbacks he believes it may cause him.  Like any girl that has an abortion for selfish reasons, I despise the guy that takes off running from his girlfriend that he impregnanted.  I personally believe like in most abortion cases, that the guy should be punished for the wrong he committed.  I believe it shouldn't be a matter of choice for him, nor do I show any respect for him when he leaves the girl with a baby or muder on the way.  A man like that, to me is Scum. Pure scum.

I don't have a pass fail system when I look at what is scum and what isn't.

Charles Manson is Scum.....So on a Grade Level for Scum he get's an A+
David Berkowitz is scum.....On a grade level for Scum he get's a A-

Sammy whole stole Jimmy's Milk at lunch....get's a F on the scum level.




what i was getting at is that everyone does something that is considered wrong at some point in their life. But that doesn't mean that they should all be condemned for it.


And insinuatingt we would support slavery, even without the whipping, is outrageous

what i was getting at is that everyone does something that is considered wrong at some point in their life. But that doesn't mean that they should all be condemned for it.


And insinuatingt we would support slavery, even without the whipping, is outrageous


and insinuating that a girl who has a miscariage should be looked at the same way as a girl who had an abortion, is down right ludicrus.

Insinuating that A guy head over heals in love with a girl should be fully aware of any evil in a girls heart, and it's his fault for not seeing that evil from the get go is extremely unfair.  But a lot of people looked at Hollie what's her face who called David "Son of Sam" Berkowitz  the nicest, most gentle loving man she had ever met, as the bad guy because she wasn't aware of a down right dirty trick.

and insinuating that a girl who has a miscariage should be looked at the same way as a girl who had an abortion, is down right ludicrus.


Who insinuated that, not me. having a miscarriage is not considered wrong.


Insinuating that A guy head over heals in love with a girl should be fully aware of any evil in a girls heart, and it's his fault for not seeing that evil from the get go is extremely unfair. But a lot of people looked at Hollie what's her face who called David "Son of Sam" Berkowitz the nicest, most gentle loving man she had ever met, as the bad guy because she wasn't aware of a down right dirty trick.


and I also never said this.

To get back on topic (not that I mind the flame wars  ;)),

I think the reasons a lot of Christians are generally grudge-holding is because the Church's teaching, while it does not condone it, gives some the message that forgiveness is something God gives to Christians, and is nothing more than that.  Of course that's not what the Church really thinks.  That's what the Right Wing thinks.

To get back on topic (not that I mind the flame wars ;)),

I think the reasons a lot of Christians are generally grudge-holding is because the Church's teaching, while it does not condone it, gives some the message that forgiveness is something God gives to Christians, and is nothing more than that. Of course that's not what the Church really thinks. That's what the Right Wing thinks.


Which church are you speaking of?  The church I attend ( and others I have attended) teaches that you should forgive one another.  Otherwise it hinders your walk with God. 

Which church are you speaking of?  The church I attend ( and others I have attended) teaches that you should forgive one another.  Otherwise it hinders your walk with God. 


No church says it.  It just seems to me some Christians (not the good ones) don't believe in personal forgiveness. I'm sure you do, you seem like a true Christian :)

Ok, just wanted to have that clarified for me.  Thanks, Devo, and welcome back. :)

Aw, Why did Sam Berkowitz get less of a scum ranking?  :D

Ok, just wanted to have that clarified for me.  Thanks, Devo, and welcome back. :)


Thanks and your welcome :)

Who insinuated that, not me. having a miscarriage is not considered wrong.

and I also never said this.


I didn't mean to have them directed towards you. But other people on this board have said those things.

Aw, Why did Sam Berkowitz get less of a scum ranking?  :D


Scum 101 is not much like Math where the answers are clear cut 1 +1 = 2.  Scum 101 is more of a subjective class, with subjective grading. Like English, Tell me about Shakespeares methods = probably get 50 different answers. 

David "Son of Sam" Berkowitz is scum, but I didn't give him as high  of a ranking because he didn't have as much hate as Charles Manson inside of him.  Berkowitz's darkness for sure overshadowed his light, but he did have a little spec of it show up every once in a while, main reason he got caught. Manson I'm sure had light in him too, but it was a lot harder to find.

Granted, I've read books on Berkowitz, and only read magazine articles and watched A and E Documentary on Manson. 

Scum 101 is not much like Math where the answers are clear cut 1 +1 = 2.  Scum 101 is more of a subjective class, with subjective grading. Like English, Tell me about Shakespeares methods = probably get 50 different answers. 

David "Son of Sam" Berkowitz is scum, but I didn't give him as high  of a ranking because he didn't have as much hate as Charles Manson inside of him.  Berkowitz's darkness for sure overshadowed his light, but he did have a little spec of it show up every once in a while, main reason he got caught. Manson I'm sure had light in him too, but it was a lot harder to find.

Granted, I've read books on Berkowitz, and only read magazine articles and watched A and E Documentary on Manson. 

Doesn't the Bible say something about "Judge not lest thee be...." whatever.  Can't remember.

And abortion, isn't smoking a joint.
I thought it was...no wonder folks were looking at me so weird at that party last weekend!
:D

From what I've read about your church, I think I might actually like it. :)


It's really a great church.  They even encourage you to think for yourself (gasp ;) ), not just blindly follow.  If you have a questionj about something the pastor said he likes a phone call.  The way he puts it is we are all learning and he makes mistakes, too.

I didn't mean to have them directed towards you. But other people on this board have said those things.



Who in their right mind will say that a miscarriage is the same abortion?

Scum 101 is not much like Math where the answers are clear cut 1 +1 = 2.  Scum 101 is more of a subjective class, with subjective grading. Like English, Tell me about Shakespeares methods = probably get 50 different answers. 


OOh OOh What Grade do i get?

Who in their right mind will say that a miscarriage is the same abortion?


I don't remember who it was, but I was ask on here why did didn't have the same disrespect for a girl who wanted to have her baby, was devestated and heart broken when she had a miscariage as I did a girl that didnt' want her baby, had no problem killing it, and had no remorse afterwards.

That question royally ticked me off.

OOh OOh What Grade do i get?


I haven't read your book yet.

and insinuating that a girl who has a miscariage should be looked at the same way as a girl who had an abortion, is down right ludicrus.

Insinuating that A guy head over heals in love with a girl should be fully aware of any evil in a girls heart, and it's his fault for not seeing that evil from the get go is extremely unfair.  But a lot of people looked at Hollie what's her face who called David "Son of Sam" Berkowitz  the nicest, most gentle loving man she had ever met, as the bad guy because she wasn't aware of a down right dirty trick.
it's no evil, it's because she might be too young to take care of a child, there are some saniarios that you might like to llok at befaore ou call someone evil

I don't remember who it was, but I was ask on here why did didn't have the same disrespect for a girl who wanted to have her baby, was devestated and heart broken when she had a miscariage as I did a girl that didnt' want her baby, had no problem killing it, and had no remorse afterwards.

That question royally ticked me off.



I don't recall anyone saying that but it would tick me off too, because a miscarriage is not the same as having an abortion.  with a miscarriage you don't have a choice in the matter.

If its the bit of the other abortion thread I am thinking of the actual question was something along the lines of

"many babies are lost to miscarriage in the first few weeks after conception.  if you believe that life begins at conception why aren't you campaigning for something to be done for all the millions of babies that are losing their life through early miscarriage"

If its the bit of the other abortion thread I am thinking of the actual question was something along the lines of

"many babies are lost to miscarriage in the first few weeks after conception.  if you believe that life begins at conception why aren't you campaigning for something to be done for all the millions of babies that are losing their life through early miscarriage"


ok, but how does he make the jump to anyone saying that it should be seen the same as abortion.

ok, but how does he make the jump to anyone saying that it should be seen the same as abortion.


who knows?

(of course I might not be thinking of the same bit)

it's no evil, it's because she might be too young to take care of a child, there are some saniarios that you might like to llok at befaore ou call someone evil



I have looked at those scenerios...I'vea also looked at rape, and I've also looked at death endangerment as well. 

I've also looked at the fact that if she doesn't think she's old enough to take care of the child, then there's adoption or the simple fact that she shouldn't have been so quick and horny to get her brain's F'd out.  To take someone's life away because you were just plain stupid, is a reason that I see, but sure as hell don't accept.

I don't recall anyone saying that but it would tick me off too, because a miscarriage is not the same as having an abortion.  with a miscarriage you don't have a choice in the matter.


Well on this, we agree 100%. 

However, someone did say that too me. I can't recall who, but I took the question personally, and for good reason.

If its the bit of the other abortion thread I am thinking of the actual question was something along the lines of

"many babies are lost to miscarriage in the first few weeks after conception.  if you believe that life begins at conception why aren't you campaigning for something to be done for all the millions of babies that are losing their life through early miscarriage"


The question was pin pointed on girls how have miscarriages, and I wasn't going to sit around and listen to that.

The question was pin pointed on girls how have miscarriages, and I wasn't going to sit around and listen to that.


If you are talking about girls doing something to cause a miscarriage, I would call that a form of abortion.

I know one girl that when she found out she was pregnant, she did everything she could to lose it, she drank, got into fights, made herself fall down the stairs etc. until she miscarried.
She did this because she couldn't afford an abortion. To me that was as wrong as an abortion. Everyone knew what she was doing but we didn't have the right to stop her.

It's really a great church.  They even encourage you to think for yourself (gasp ;) ), not just blindly follow.  If you have a questionj about something the pastor said he likes a phone call.  The way he puts it is we are all learning and he makes mistakes, too.


sounds sort of like the church that I go to as well....they are more open and the pastor always welcomes questions as well as criticisms.

Erin :)

If you are talking about girls doing something to cause a miscarriage, I would call that a form of abortion.

I know one girl that when she found out she was pregnant, she did everything she could to lose it, she drank, got into fights, made herself fall down the stairs etc. until she miscarried.
She did this because she couldn't afford an abortion. To me that was as wrong as an abortion. Everyone knew what she was doing but we didn't have the right to stop her.


I was referring more along the lines of a girl who's looking forward to having her baby, then is devestated when she loses it because of a miscarriage.

I was referring more along the lines of a girl who's looking forward to having her baby, then is devestated when she loses it because of a miscarriage.


Thats what I thought, and there is nothing done wrong in that case.


The question was pin pointed on girls how have miscarriages, and I wasn't going to sit around and listen to that.



this comment lead me to believe that you were talking about girls that do it on purpose.

sorry for the misunderstanding.

Thats what I thought, and there is nothing done wrong in that case.


this comment lead me to believe that you were talking about girls that do it on purpose.

sorry for the misunderstanding.



No harm nor hard feelings in a misunderstanding.

My sister had a miscarriage. My sister loves her son a lot, a whole lot.  She was really looking forward to having another baby, and she lost it due to a misscarriage. She took it really really hard.  I took it really hard.  I watched my sister cry, I watched her fight through the pain, and you can send me on down the line, cause I'll come to blows with anyone that wants to compare that to an abortion.

No harm nor hard feelings in a misunderstanding.

My sister had a miscarriage. My sister loves her son a lot, a whole lot.  She was really looking forward to having another baby, and she lost it due to a misscarriage. She took it really really hard.  I took it really hard.  I watched my sister cry, I watched her fight through the pain, and you can send me on down the line, cause I'll come to blows with anyone that wants to compare that to an abortion.


Yeah my sister had 3 miscarriages before she had her first baby. But in some cases, like the one I posted, can be seen as a type of self-abortion.

Yeah my sister had 3 miscarriages before she had her first baby. But in some cases, like the one I posted, can be seen as a type of self-abortion.


yeah. The story is always the differintiating factor.

yeah. The story is always the differintiating factor.


But in no way do I compare a miscarriage, where the baby is wanted, to an abortion.

But in no way do I compare a miscarriage, where the baby is wanted, to an abortion.


I know that. However, someone on this message board does.

I know that. However, someone on this message board does.


no I don't think so, I think (if that post was the one karen pointed out) It was meant as, that if you believe that life begins at conception why are pro-lifers not trying to find a way to save the children lost in miscarriages instead of just b*tching at pro-choicers.

no I don't think so, I think (if that post was the one karen pointed out) It was meant as, that if you believe that life begins at conception why are pro-lifers not trying to find a way to save the children lost in miscarriages instead of just b*tching at pro-choicers.


No, it wasn't. The question was directed towards me, and me alone.  The writer wanted to know why, if I dispised women who had had an abortion. Then why didn't I despise a woman who had, had a miscarriage.  I explained because a woman who has a miscarriage in 99/100 did not want a misscarriage, wanted her baby, and in no way shape or form caused it to happen, or if she did, she sure as Hell didn't cause it on purpose.

No, it wasn't. The question was directed towards me, and me alone.  The writer wanted to know why, if I dispised women who had had an abortion. Then why didn't I despise a woman who had, had a miscarriage.  I explained because a woman who has a miscarriage in 99/100 did not want a misscarriage, wanted her baby, and in no way shape or form caused it to happen, or if she did, she sure as Hell didn't cause it on purpose.



some do cause it on purpose though.

some do cause it on purpose though.


I realize that

now back to the original question.

most of the posts saying that christians are anti-forgiveness are using the example of the catholic church, you seem to be lumping all christians into one group because of that church. I was raised catholic but I no longer follow that religion for personal reasons.
I consider myself christian and I forgive people who have did me wrong, except one person and that person will never have my forgiveness.  People have lied about me,and spread rumors about me. others have asked me how could i still talk to them? I know what was said was not true, so I don't really care what others think. so I forgave them.

now back to the original question.

most of the posts saying that christians are anti-forgiveness are using the example of the catholic church, you seem to be lumping all christians into one group because of that church. I was raised catholic but I no longer follow that religion for personal reasons.
I consider myself christian and I forgive people who have did me wrong, except one person and that person will never have my forgiveness. People have lied about me,and spread rumors about me. others have asked me how could i still talk to them? I know what was said was not true, so I don't really care what others think. so I forgave them.



I was also raised Catholic, but the LAST thing I would do is "lump" them together.  If anything, some of the "Christians" I've encountered are LESS forgiving than some of the Catholics I know.

I also agree about 1 person that will NEVER have my forgiveness, although for me, it's 2.


Yeah, the greatest wrongs are often almost impossible to forgive.  For humans anyway. 

While I'd like to think I'd forgive anyone who wronged me, no matter how big it was, I can't say for sure I really would.  But I do believe that nothing is too big for forgiveness granted the perp is truly remorseful.  In the long run of things, anyway, I'm not saying criminals should get their life back if they recant.  That would just be unfair.  I'm not perfect though.

now back to the original question.

most of the posts saying that christians are anti-forgiveness are using the example of the catholic church, you seem to be lumping all christians into one group because of that church. I was raised catholic but I no longer follow that religion for personal reasons.
I consider myself christian and I forgive people who have did me wrong, except one person and that person will never have my forgiveness.  People have lied about me,and spread rumors about me. others have asked me how could i still talk to them? I know what was said was not true, so I don't really care what others think. so I forgave them.


Seems like everyone has that one person.  Although that person could get my forgiveness, I doubt they ever will.

Seems like everyone has that one person.  Although that person could get my forgiveness, I doubt they ever will.


there are some things that are unforgivable. Like when someone does something morally wrong to you.

I've forgiven some pretty MAJOR things, but I will NEVER forgive the ba$tard who raped me, no matter how sorry he says he is.  He took part of me that I can never get back >:(


I probably wouldn't either.  That's a terrible thing to do.  I hope he gets what's due to him  >:(

there are some things that are unforgivable. Like when someone does something morally wrong to you.


Or someone you love.....but for your benefit let's just say you got a good point.  Some dreams are bigger than others, and when someone takes the number 1 thing you want out of life away from you and has no remorse whatsoever it's possible to not hate them, but it's not exactly easy to smile and say, "it's ok, I forgive you."

I probably wouldn't either.  That's a terrible thing to do.  I hope he gets what's due to him  >:(


Glad to see I'm not the only one on this board, that is all about forgiveness, but still thinks justice needs to be served.

Thanks.  Unfortunately, there are some people who think I should forgive him ::)


I don't think you should forgive him, I never did.  I just wanted you to see that other people can hurt as bad as you do.

Or someone you love.....but for your benefit let's just say you got a good point.  Some dreams are bigger than others, and when someone takes the number 1 thing you want out of life away from you and has no remorse whatsoever it's possible to not hate them, but it's not exactly easy to smile and say, "it's ok, I forgive you."


no, on my part I do hate him, I know that is a strong word, but I do hate him.
I am so angry for what he took from me. and now I find out it was all because af a f*ucking dare.
It was bad enough before but now it seems to have made it much worse.

no, on my part I do hate him, I know that is a strong word, but I do hate him.
I am so angry for what he took from me. and now I find out it was all because af a f*ucking dare.
It was bad enough before but now it seems to have made it much worse.


you have every right to hate him.  If I were you I'd probably hate him too. And as I often get told I don't even know the guy but I do dislike him a whole whole bunch.

#1, I wasn't talking about you.  There have been many more than just YOU who have said that I should forgive him.  #2 What are you talking about?  What did you do to make me see that?


1 Can't blame me for that assumption

2 Obviously nothing

you have every right to hate him.  If I were you I'd probably hate him too. And as I often get told I don't even know the guy but I do dislike him a whole whole bunch.


I am trying to get rid of the hate part, because i do know that if you hate it will continue to ruin your life, someday maybe I won't hate him, but I know I will never forgive him.

1.  Well, considering I said before that others have told me, and you ALSO told me I should, then yes, yes I can..

2.  I've never said that people can't hurt more than me.  I know that there are ALOT of people who hurt more than me and have said that as well, you just didn't see it, as usual.  And, if you're talking about the whole Ralph thing (again), I'll say once again...I didn't say he should forgive her, but just like the other comments that other people made, you attributed it to me.  For the record, I DON'T think he should forgive her and never said he should because I've always said that I can't make someone feel something that they don't feel on their own.  I wish you could get that through your thick skull ::)


Dislike or like somone, I respect people that clearly stand in there position.  You don't do that, and that's   I'll ever need or want to know about you.

I am trying to get rid of the hate part, because i do know that if you hate it will continue to ruin your life, someday maybe I won't hate him, but I know I will never forgive him.


Nothing, absolutley nothing at all wrong with that.  That's where I came too.  I don't hate the person that ruined my life, and I although I won't shed a tear if she does get what she's got coming to her, I also don't want anything bad to happen to her. However as for now I'll never forgive. But the day she's sorry, truly sorry, then I think I'll find it in myself to forgive her.

Nothing, absolutley nothing at all wrong with that.  That's where I came too.  I don't hate the person that ruined my life, and I although I won't shed a tear if she does get what she's got coming to her, I also don't want anything bad to happen to her. However as for now I'll never forgive. But the day she's sorry, truly sorry, then I think I'll find it in myself to forgive her.


Some things are so hard to figure out sometimes. At times I don't know what I feel about him, I know I used to consider him a friend, now I don't really trust any of my friends. He took that ability from me, I am always questioning my own judgement, and I hate it. Also since then I have severe panic attacks, I always feel something bad is going to happen. I hate that too.
I pray every night that I could feel like me again-does that make any sense.

Some things are so hard to figure out sometimes. At times I don't know what I feel about him, I know I used to consider him a friend, now I don't really trust any of my friends. He took that ability from me, I am always questioning my own judgement, and I hate it. Also since then I have severe panic attacks, I always feel something bad is going to happen. I hate that too.
I pray every night that I could feel like me again-does that make any sense.


It makes plenty of sense.  On a much different level, I know exactly what your going through. I have horrible trust issues. I think that everything and everyone I ever meet will one day let me down. You and others may not believe this, but I hate that feeling so much, that I go out of my way to try and make others feel good about themselves. I got a lot of pain inside of myself, and I don't want anyone that doesn't deserve to feel pain to feel it.  I'm not trying to say I'm in the exact same predicament as you, I'll be the first to say your in a deeper state than me most likely.

But I used to have so much hope, so much hope inside of me, and that lady had to take it away from me.  I know, or at least I believe I can get it back, and God is helping me out tremendously. God is there for me. Jesus is looking out for me right now.  There love for me is getting me back to where I need to be.

So if at all understandable, there's chronological reasons why I blow up in people's faces when they tell me there is no God.

YOU respect people?  That's hilarious.  If you think respect is calling people names like "evil", "heartless", and "con" because they disagree with your opinion and accusing them of saying things that have been PROVEN they didn't say, then I guess I'm glad that you think I'm "disrespectful".


I let people know where I stand. I'm not in denial nor in fear of anything. 

I respect people that deserve to be respected, people that earn there respect.  A person that lies, kicks people when they're down, and shines light on everyone elses fallicies but their own, I dont' respect a person like that.

It makes plenty of sense.  On a much different level, I know exactly what your going through. I have horrible trust issues. I think that everything and everyone I ever meet will one day let me down. You and others may not believe this, but I hate that feeling so much, that I go out of my way to try and make others feel good about themselves. I got a lot of pain inside of myself, and I don't want anyone that doesn't deserve to feel pain to feel it.  I'm not trying to say I'm in the exact same predicament as you, I'll be the first to say your in a deeper state than me most likely.

But I used to have so much hope, so much hope inside of me, and that lady had to take it away from me.  I know, or at least I believe I can get it back, and God is helping me out tremendously. God is there for me. Jesus is looking out for me right now.  There love for me is getting me back to where I need to be.

So if at all understandable, there's chronological reasons why I blow up in people's faces when they tell me there is no God.


Thank you Harmonica for understanding about this, I know we had our differences in the past. I still stand by what I say and that is that I don't have the right to tell others what to do.

On this thread, though,I think everyone has said they believe in god. Now on the Do you Believe in God thread, there are lots that said he isn't real, or that they need proof before they believe.

I know I believe, and I'm pretty sure crazymom has said she believes in the Lord, she is like me in a way, we both do not follow the catholic church anymore for personal reasons, not sure what hers are but mine is because the Catholic priest would not come to the hospital in the middle of the night to give my father his last rites.

When did I lie?  When did I kick YOU when YOU were down?  YOU were the one who told ME I should forgive my rapist, if that isn't kicking when someone's down, I would shudder to think what was.  I know you THINK that I made derogatory comments about Ralph, but I KNOW it wasn't me.  ANd, I guess if you don't respect me for "shining light on everyone else's fallacies" (whatever that means), then you don't respect yourself, because you seem to keep forgetting that I agree with you that abortion is wrong, I would rather see someone give birth and give that child up for adoption if they didn't want it, I would rather see people be responsible when it comes to sex and the consequences thereof....the only thing we disagree on is that I don't think I have the RIGHT to tell someone else what to feel or do, which you seem to think you do.


Nothing wrong with shining light on others negatives, as long as you step into the light yourself.  I Know I do my good share of pointing out what's wrong with others, but if you ever meet anyone that knows me on a personal level, like in the flesh, they'll tell you that I do a much better job at pointing out my own negatives than I do anyone else.

last night in disciple group I sat and bashed myself for 20 minutes, I'm not afraid to step into that light, it's cleansing.

Thank you Harmonica for understanding about this, I know we had our differences in the past. I still stand by what I say and that is that I don't have the right to tell others what to do.

On this thread, though,I think everyone has said they believe in god. Now on the Do you Believe in God thread, there are lots that said he isn't real, or that they need proof before they believe.

I know I believe, and I'm pretty sure crazymom has said she believes in the Lord, she is like me in a way, we both do not follow the catholic church anymore for personal reasons, not sure what hers are but mine is because the Catholic priest would not come to the hospital in the middle of the night to give my father his last rites.


I can't believe that they didn't come to the hospital that night.  My reverend drove 15 miles, at 3 a.m. one night, because a daughter of her church thought her dad wasn't gonna make it through the night, and he asked for the reverend to be there.  He ended up dying around 5 a.m.

A lot of not so good people in this world, but there are a lot of reallly good people too.

Nothing wrong with shining light on others negatives, as long as you step into the light yourself.  I Know I do my good share of pointing out what's wrong with others, but if you ever meet anyone that knows me on a personal level, like in the flesh, they'll tell you that I do a much better job at pointing out my own negatives than I do anyone else.

last night in disciple group I sat and bashed myself for 20 minutes, I'm not afraid to step into that light, it's cleansing.


Sometimes bashing yourself would have a negative effect, if you keep telling yourself that you are wrong or no good, soon you start to believe it.

I can't believe that they didn't come to the hospital that night.  My reverend drove 15 miles, at 3 a.m. one night, because a daughter of her church thought her dad wasn't gonna make it through the night, and he asked for the reverend to be there.   He ended up dying around 5 a.m.

A lot of not so good people in this world, but there are a lot of reallly good people too.


They did more than just refuse to come, they called the nurses desk and told them not to let us call, for them to call when they think he will be dying soon.
My grandmother called a priest that lived about a half hour away; and he came up right away. My dad died about an hour after being given his last rites.

Sometimes bashing yourself would have a negative effect, if you keep telling yourself that you are wrong or no good, soon you start to believe it.


Because of the wrongs that have happened in my life. The wrongs that have happened to my family. I often feel sorry for myself and for others. I look up in the sky and say, "My sister is a good woman dam it! She didn't deserve to have a miscarriage" "This isn't right, my little sister shouldn't be dead!".

Feeling sad about things that happened in no way shape or form is a bad thing. But sitting around feeling sorry for myself, or for others is a sign of weakness, and a sign of mistrust.

I trust in the lord, but his ways are so dam mysterious.

They did more than just refuse to come, they called the nurses desk and told them not to let us call, for them to call when they think he will be dying soon.
My grandmother called a priest that lived about a half hour away; and he came up right away. My dad died about an hour after being given his last rites.


I hate it when people die. It's a part of life I'm not very accepting of.

Well, if you'd bothered to read any of my other posts, I've done my share of self-bashing myself.  I KNOW I'm far from perfect, never claimed to be, but just like you, I'm not afraid to stand up for what I believe in, whether others agree, like it or not  What I have learned over the years, though, is that people can disagree with your beliefs without it being a personal attack.


exactly crazymom, that is what i say, no one will ever find another person that will agree with all of your beliefs, but it's not a personal attack when you disagree.

Because of the wrongs that have happened in my life. The wrongs that have happened to my family. I often feel sorry for myself and for others. I look up in the sky and say, "My sister is a good woman dam it! She didn't deserve to have a miscarriage" "This isn't right, my little sister shouldn't be dead!".

Feeling sad about things that happened in no way shape or form is a bad thing. But sitting around feeling sorry for myself, or for others is a sign of weakness, and a sign of mistrust.

I trust in the lord, but his ways are so dam mysterious.


well that doesn't sound like bashing to me, that is just questioning life, everyone does that. to me bashing is putting something or someone down.

Well, if you'd bothered to read any of my other posts, I've done my share of self-bashing myself.  I KNOW I'm far from perfect, never claimed to be, but just like you, I'm not afraid to stand up for what I believe in, whether others agree, like it or not  What I have learned over the years, though, is that people can disagree with your beliefs without it being a personal attack.


I don't do things randomly.  I didn't put you, McDonald, Jessica, Alcoholica, Eldudrino and all the others that have ever disagreed with me, put your names into a hat and draw your's out of the hat.  I singled you out for a reason.  

However anything I say will be clevery contradicted and you'll once again jump ship wherever the water is safest.

What is the reason?  Because I questioned you on your beliefs?  I welcome questions on why I believe the way I do.  I was trying to be nice in my last post, but you obviously don't want that from me so bring it on...


I want honesty out of you, I want whatever your trying to pull to be ended.

whatever you feel say it.....say it.

Why don't you say what you really feel...about me....about God....say how you really feel and stick with it.  You can't possibly change your mind as often as you like to present.

What ?!?  What I'm trying to pull?  When have I not been honest?  You think I'm lying about being molested, raped & having a medical condition that would most likely cause my death if I were to try to have another child?  What have I ever not "stuck with"?  When have I "changed my mind"?  I know you won't answer any of those, but I thought I'd ask them anyway.

I've never said that I approve of abortion.  The only thing I've ever said is that I won't tell a woman that they should/shouldn't have one.  And, as a parent, it breaks my heart to see abused children.  I've worked with them AND their parents and I've been told by "parents" that the ONLY reason they had their child is because people made them feel guilty for wanting to give their child up for adoption and made them feel guilty for wanting to have an abortion.  These people could care less what happens to their child as long as THEY "look good".  In those cases, then yes, I think the child is better off not being born because that parent takes their guilt out on their child, and that child will most likely treat their children the same way.

You're the one who tells me that I "should forgive the guy who raped me".  Whether you were doing it to prove a point or not, it was TOTALLY uncalled for.  You have called me "evil", "heartless" and a host of other names.  I have not called you ONE, though you refuse to believe that, even with proof.  You have yet to show me where I called you a name or "personally attacked" you other than the FU comment which was in response to the above statement about forgiveness.

God?  I've said before and I'll say it again:  I'm not sure if He exists or not.  There are times I do and times I can't imagine how He can let some things happen.  I would LOVE for someone to be able to answer all of the questions I have about him, but have YET to find someone who can do so without treating me like the Devil for NOT believing.

You?  I think you're an intelligent kid who has very strong convictions and I commend you for not succumbing to the peer pressure to "fit in" like so many do.  I also think you're overly sensitive and think that you're a little bit better than anyone who doesn't agree with you.  By that, I mean you can't understand how someone CAN'T agree with you and see your point.  You could also stand to learn a little about tact.  There are ways to make your point without calling people names or attacking them, telling them in no uncertain terms that they're WRONG without something other than your beliefs to back it up.  And, just because someone disagrees with you or questions your beliefs, does not mean that they are "attacking" you, as you seem to think.  If someone calls you an egotistical punk who doesn't know his butt from a hole in the ground, THAT'S an attack.  If someone says "But what about X" when you believe in Y, that is NOT an attack.

You want to know what I'm trying to pull?  Not a darned thing.  I'm the one who's tried to walk away more than once and YOU'RE the one who keeps bringing my name back into the discussion.  I'm sorry, but I'm not going to sit idly by and let someone bash me, I don't care WHO it is.

If you can't accept that, then that's not my problem.  You base your opinion of me on my responses to 1 subject:  abortion.  Not that you care or have even attempted to find out, but there's ALOT more to me than just my opinions on that subject.  I am very good friends with some people on this board who agree 100% with you, who disagree with me on many things, but that didn't stop them from getting to know me.  I'm sure you don't remember this, but I was supportive of you when you first came and liked a girl who didn't like you back.  I told you that you did the right thing and to "keep on keeping on" to which you never responded.  Common courtesy would've been to say "Thanks", but you'd already made up your mind about me by then.  I also thanked you for being honest in an answer to a question I had about if YOU were the guy who had gotten someone pregnant to which you didn't reply.  And YOU call ME disrespectful ::)


I thought I did answer that question.  I would marry her if she wanted to. I would stick by her side and be the best husband and father that I possibly could. 


Your right about something. Don't get me wrong, I still think your wrong in areas, I won't hide that at all. But your right about something.


Sorry for ever making you feel like you should have been raped, that is something I NEVER ever wanted you to feel. I care an awful lot about my sister, and I can only regret not getting to know Ralph better. I knew him pretty well. Talked with him quite a few times, but not like a best friend, more along the lines of a teammate in a sport or a coworker at work.  He was a good guy. Had a big heart. He did a lot of good things for my uncle. Four gas stations in town, I'd always stop at the same one everytime, even if the price was a little higher. Everyone's opinion is different though, it's hard in this situation, but I do need to learn to respect that.

My last comment since you never answered any of my questions, especially the "Why me?" one.

I apologize if you felt "attacked" by my questions and comments.  That wasn't the intent of them.  I was simply trying to get you to at least try and look at things from the other side, whether you agreed with them or not.  In this situation, I HAVE looked at things from both sides.  I was IN the position to have an abortion, but chose not to both times.  The first one was a miscarriage, which devastated me.  The second one, as I've said before, is my oldest child.  Both times, I had some people telling me to have an abortion and some telling me not to.  It was then that I realized that MY REALITY when it comes to pregnancy is not EVERYONE'S and just as those people who told me TO have the abortion had no right to tell me that, the ones who told me not to had no right to do that either.  When it came down to it, it was MY decision to make, not theirs.  I knew in my heart that I couldn't do it, but not everyone feels the same way.  From the time I learned I was pregnant, I felt a "connection" with my children.  Some women don't feel that and no matter how much anyone tells them they should, if they don't feel it for themselves, it's never going to happen.  It's like trying to MAKE someone fall in love with you, you can try your hardest, but you can't MAKE it happen.


You didn't have an abortion because you ARE a moral person, with a GOOD heart.  That's what I desired to get across to you.  Whether you like it or not, there are girls who have abortions for non evil/selfish reasons, but they are in the few, they are the minority. A lot of girls get them for selfish, evil reasons.  I don't regret calling you cold hearted at the time, cause I felt like you were saying that they didn't.  And maybe you were, maybe you weren't.

I'm a very very strong Christian, and one of my missions is to try and get the love of jesus christ into everyone, to try and show everyone love and to make this world a better place.  We'll never see eye to eye on this.

Now I know that I went about that the wrong way at times, but I also know that it's not always an easy thing not too. Your questions and comments often did make me feel as if you were saying things bad about me and about what I believe in, and yes, I do feel like you were way out of line when we spoke about Ralph. That's in the past though, and I forgive you for it, or I was wrong in assuming that, and ask for your forgiveness. I put the or in there because what I believe isn't always right, although, it'd be nice if it was.


Your most likely right, I can't make this world a better place. I can't make people do good things.  I can try though.

Glad to see I'm not the only one on this board, that is all about forgiveness, but still thinks justice needs to be served.


Definitely.  Wishing justice isn't the same as wishing vengeance.  If I commited a loathsome crime and I felt remorse later I wouldn't feel truly redeemed until I got my punishment.

The crimes that are very difficult to forgive imo are murder, abuse, rape, and torture.  Hate is really just a instinctive feeling humans feel to benefit their survival, ie you avoid or harm those you hate. 

Self-proclaimed Christians such as Sean Hannity and Lt. Col. Oliver North are still getting their rocks off by not forgiving Jane Fonda.  Ollie North calling Fonda a traitor is like Ted Bundy joining PETA!

I in no way meant that you can't make this world a better place, but you're right, if someone doesn't WANT to do good things, you can't make them do them.  If someone doesn't feel something, you can't make them feel it.  And, I've found, the harder you try, the harder they resist.  It's like forgiveness, you can't make someone forgive you if you're not ready.


Or willing.

I don't know, but it seem to me like many, if not most Christians believe in forgiveness only in theory.  That is, vengeance is good and only God needs to forgive people for their wrongs.  Of course that's contradictory to the Bible, but many Christians seem to believe violence is the answer to things. 

Then there's some who do ill, than turn around and ask for forgiveness. After all Earth is only a test.

Me, I think Jesus would spit on the Christians that do think that way.


No, Jews don't have forgiveness...we have repentance and Jewish guilt  ;D.

Is Ann Coulter a Christian?

Is Ann Coulter a Christian?


She's a Christian like I'm a virgin.

She's a Christian like I'm a virgin.

Uhhh...could go either way there.

Coulter behaves in a most un-Christian manner, but she raves about how Christian she is. She even mentioned the church she attends in New Canaan in her last book, "Godless." She knew if she called all liberals anti-Christian, everybody would ask, "Well, do you go to church?" The funny thing is, nobody at that particular church in her hometown recalls seeing her there. She's got the number 1 book on the New York Times best seller list, but there's no media hub-bub here. If Michael Moore pulled the same BS, Sean Hannity would be ripping him a new one every night! Conservatives don't really care if you go to church. Dubya doesn't go to church! They only care if you ascribe to the political ideas they have put under the label "Christian." Forgiveness is not one of them. Heck, you practically get the death penalty, for being against the death penalty!

Forgiveness is a major principle of Christianity, however, the self-proclaimed "Christians" in the media are not Christians so much as political activists.

They seem to favor retribution like with the death penalty. "An eye for an eye" is not in the Bible, it is in the Code of Hammurabi. A set of laws for the Babylonians. And Christians didn't like them.



It most certainly IS in the bible:
Exodus 21:23-25  "And if any mischeif follow, then thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."


And.....

Matthew 5:38-42  (Jesus said:)  "Ye have heard that it has been said, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: but I say unto you, that ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.  And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.  And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.  Give to him that asks thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away."

Also, Matthew 7:3-5 (Jesus said:)  "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?  Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?  Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."

And.....

Matthew 5:38-42  (Jesus said:)  "Ye have heard that it has been said, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: but I say unto you, that ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.  And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.  And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.  Give to him that asks thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away."

Also, Matthew 7:3-5 (Jesus said:)  "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?  Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?  Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."


And we can add to all that "Thou shalt not kill"  (end of story, without qualifiers or exceptions)

And we can add to all that "Thou shalt not kill"  (end of story, without qualifiers or exceptions)

Wasn't it originally,
"Thou shalt not kill, unless he looketh at your girlfriend funny"?

Musta got lost in translation somewhere...
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/08/quickdraw.gif

if god is real, just think how he feels whenever someone calls his great creation, earth, just a test.

I don't get why most Christians in the United States are for the death penalty when it's about revenge. As for me, I'm against the death penalty, not for what it is, but for why it exists, which is revenge.

if god is real, just think how he feels whenever someone calls his great creation, earth, just a test.


I agree. I think it cheapens what's great about Earth believing in heaven.

I don't get why most Christians in the United States are for the death penalty when it's about revenge. As for me, I'm against the death penalty, not for what it is, but for why it exists, which is revenge.

You see this in Islam as well. Judgment in too important to be left to God, we must take it upon ourselves to act in loco deus! (that's the wrong declension, I'm too tired to go look up the right one!).
:-\\

I don't get why most Christians in the United States are for the death penalty when it's about revenge. As for me, I'm against the death penalty, not for what it is, but for why it exists, which is revenge.


"Most Christians"?  I know plenty of Christians who are against the death penalty -- they don't necessarily make the headlines but there are many of them so....please don't take what you see in the media and assume this is "most".  (Now if 'most' is statistically proven, then that's different).  That's point one.

The second thing I'll say (please keep in mind that I'm against the death penalty too) .... the death penalty does not exist just for revenge.  (1) if someone is dead, they cannot repeat their crime; (2) housing someone in prison isn't cheap and, the more heinous the crimes--and the less repentent the heart, the less palatable it becomes to spend that money year after year on sustaining that life.  Just to give you a couple of alternative reasons why some people support the death penalty.

Forgiveness is a major principle of Christianity, however, the self-proclaimed "Christians" in the media are not Christians so much as political activists.


Yes.  Good point, Max.  One that many people tend to overlook. 

"Most Christians"?  I know plenty of Christians who are against the death penalty -- they don't necessarily make the headlines but there are many of them so....please don't take what you see in the media and assume this is "most".  (Now if 'most' is statistically proven, then that's different).  That's point one.

The second thing I'll say (please keep in mind that I'm against the death penalty too) .... the death penalty does not exist just for revenge.  (1) if someone is dead, they cannot repeat their crime; (2) housing someone in prison isn't cheap and, the more heinous the crimes--and the less repentent the heart, the less palatable it becomes to spend that money year after year on sustaining that life.  Just to give you a couple of alternative reasons why some people support the death penalty.




I know some Christians are anti-death penalty - the Amish are probably more anti-death penalty than anyone else, but when maybe 2/3 of Americans support death penalty, and a similar amount are Christian you can say most Christians support the death penalty.

I know there's other valid reasons to support the death penalty, reasons I would agree with if the people who supported the death penalty weren't so hateful. I'm against the death penalty because the people who support it are the types who don't believe in second chances. The existence of the death penalty sends out a bad message to people.

I know some Christians are anti-death penalty - the Amish are probably more anti-death penalty than anyone else, but when maybe 2/3 of Americans support death penalty, and a similar amount are Christian you can say most Christians support the death penalty.

I know there's other valid reasons to support the death penalty, reasons I would agree with if the people who supported the death penalty weren't so hateful. I'm against the death penalty because the people who support it are the types who don't believe in second chances. The existence of the death penalty sends out a bad message to people.

Well, the funny-mentalists have dumbed down Christianity to the point where evangelicals believe the Bible speaks in one unified message about everything, and contains no contradictions.

The O.T. books with all the draconian legalism were written hundreds of years before Christ, yet the funny-mentalists make like Jesus would have you stoned to death for breaking the Sabbath...not that funny-mentalists themselves keep the Sabbath!
:D

The funny-mentalists have been trying to make Jesus into a Rambo-type figure for the past quarter century and it just doesn't work. I wish I could remember which evangelist was on the tube hollaring, "Jesus wasn't for peace. He was a warrior. He cut people in half with swords!" Huh? I think you got the wrong party there. You can take the Sermon on the Mount into as many Republican focus groups as you like, but you'll never turn him into Gingrich-Christ. The words just aren't there!

Abortion issue aside, the Vatican is still against the death penalty. Even the christofascist Benedict XVI is against capital punishment. At the core of the Catholic faith is redemption. You can always come back to God, ask for forgiveness, and perform acts of contrition. You can do so even if you've murdered fifty people! Your prison chaplain can't guarntee God will forgive you, but it can't hurt to try! The only way you're rock-solid certain to fall from grace is via heresy. If you renounce the Church's teachings, if you get yourself excommunicated, you're gonna fry like a cruller, no way around it! It's the bad ideas that'll get you every time! When my old man was a student at Portsmouth Priory, he got in bigtime trouble when he was caught with Sartre! I mean, not with Jean-Paul himself, but in possession of a copy of Being and Nothingness. That was before Vatican II, things were a lot more hardcore!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/10/twak.gif

I'm against the death penalty because the people who support it are the types who don't believe in second chances. The existence of the death penalty sends out a bad message to people.


Agreed.

The funny-mentalists have been trying to make Jesus into a Rambo-type figure for the past quarter century and it just doesn't work. I wish I could remember which evangelist was on the tube hollaring, "Jesus wasn't for peace. He was a warrior. He cut people in half with swords!" Huh? I think you got the wrong party there. You can take the Sermon on the Mount into as many Republican focus groups as you like, but you'll never turn him into Gingrich-Christ. The words just aren't there!

Abortion issue aside, the Vatican is still against the death penalty. Even the christofascist Benedict XVI is against capital punishment. At the core of the Catholic faith is redemption. You can always come back to God, ask for forgiveness, and perform acts of contrition. You can do so even if you've murdered fifty people! Your prison chaplain can't guarntee God will forgive you, but it can't hurt to try! The only way you're rock-solid certain to fall from grace is via heresy. If you renounce the Church's teachings, if you get yourself excommunicated, you're gonna fry like a cruller, no way around it! It's the bad ideas that'll get you every time! When my old man was a student at Portsmouth Priory, he got in bigtime trouble when he was caught with Sartre! I mean, not with Jean-Paul himself, but in possession of a copy of Being and Nothingness. That was before Vatican II, things were a lot more hardcore!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/10/twak.gif


Wow.  You said alot there in one posting.  Hard to respond to so much.  It's hard also (for me) to talk about Christianity (one issue), the Fundies (another issue), and the RCC (another issue) all in one mouthful.  Lots of great topics for conversations though.  Wish I had more time!  :)

You know I went back and read most of the post in this.

Are non-christians anti-punishment?  I hope not to piss nobody off, but that's sorta the argument I see them developing here.

You know I went back and read most of the post in this.

Are non-christians anti-punishment?  I hope not to piss nobody off, but that's sorta the argument I see them developing here.


Atheists aren't anti-punishment, they have different reasons to believe in it. 

I'm for punishment, if it makes the world a better place. The death penalty, no matter what anyone says is about revenge and anger.  I think in some ways it makes more sense than life in prison, but I'm against it because the main reason it exists is to make people feel happy about killing a killer.  I think the existence of capital punishment blurs the line between good and evil.

You know I went back and read most of the post in this.

Are non-christians anti-punishment?  I hope not to piss nobody off, but that's sorta the argument I see them developing here.



As a non-Christian, I am not anti-punishment but I believe in justice. I believe the punishment should fit the crime. I don't believe in someone getting 20 years for having a parking violation, nor do I think someone should get off with a slap on the wrist for murder. As for the death penalty, I usually don't believe in it (but I also do believe there are exceptions). For one thing, we don't know what is on the "other side". Yeah, everyone has their own theory-i.e. Heaven and Hell. But none of us really knows. There just may be a Heaven and would I want some person who murdered many do go to such a place? However, we do know what life inside a prison is like. (Personally, I know only what I heard, never having experienced it first hand-and I plan never to do so). Life in prision can be called Hell on Earth and I feel that there are some who deserve to be in such a place.

Another reason why I am generally against the death penality is because mistakes do happen. There have been many who were put to death, only later to find out that they were indeed innocent.




Cat

As a non-Christian, I am not anti-punishment but I believe in justice. I believe the punishment should fit the crime. I don't believe in someone getting 20 years for having a parking violation, nor do I think someone should get off with a slap on the wrist for murder. As for the death penalty, I usually don't believe in it (but I also do believe there are exceptions). For one thing, we don't know what is on the "other side". Yeah, everyone has their own theory-i.e. Heaven and Hell. But none of us really knows. There just may be a Heaven and would I want some person who murdered many do go to such a place? However, we do know what life inside a prison is like. (Personally, I know only what I heard, never having experienced it first hand-and I plan never to do so). Life in prision can be called Hell on Earth and I feel that there are some who deserve to be in such a place.

Another reason why I am generally against the death penality is because mistakes do happen. There have been many who were put to death, only later to find out that they were indeed innocent.




Cat


Here's the thing I don't get about justice: if it doesn't make the world a better place, why inflict punishment upon somebody? Hating them isn't a reason, it's a passion.  I think punishment should be applied if it prevents crime, but for no other reason.

Here's the thing I don't get about justice: if it doesn't make the world a better place, why inflict punishment upon somebody? Hating them isn't a reason, it's a passion.  I think punishment should be applied if it prevents crime, but for no other reason.

Donnie, you heretic! You...you...you...you liberal!
"We gotta send message to these people that society isn't going tolerate this sort of thing!"
---Bill O'Reilly
(not referring stealing elections or war profiteering_

Atheists aren't anti-punishment, they have different reasons to believe in it. 

I'm for punishment, if it makes the world a better place. The death penalty, no matter what anyone says is about revenge and anger.  I think in some ways it makes more sense than life in prison, but I'm against it because the main reason it exists is to make people feel happy about killing a killer.  I think the existence of capital punishment blurs the line between good and evil.


That's a good enough answer for me.

As a non-Christian, I am not anti-punishment but I believe in justice. I believe the punishment should fit the crime. I don't believe in someone getting 20 years for having a parking violation, nor do I think someone should get off with a slap on the wrist for murder. As for the death penalty, I usually don't believe in it (but I also do believe there are exceptions). For one thing, we don't know what is on the "other side". Yeah, everyone has their own theory-i.e. Heaven and Hell. But none of us really knows. There just may be a Heaven and would I want some person who murdered many do go to such a place? However, we do know what life inside a prison is like. (Personally, I know only what I heard, never having experienced it first hand-and I plan never to do so). Life in prision can be called Hell on Earth and I feel that there are some who deserve to be in such a place.

Another reason why I am generally against the death penality is because mistakes do happen. There have been many who were put to death, only later to find out that they were indeed innocent.




Cat


The "what if" question you present is one that really plays into my head right now.  I mean what if a person who murderd someone gets killed in the electric chair or another device and then goes straight to paradise and living it good the rest of eternity.  That wouldn't seem like my justice to me.  I like how you pointed out that we know for sure what prison is like.  That the punishment they're getting is clearly seen and known.  So many circumstances and so many different motives and all the likes.  Makes me hope that there is a God that is all knowing and all powerful, he knows how far and how long a punishment should go.  Or someone does anyway, I hope.

I mean what if a person who murderd someone gets killed in the electric chair or another device and then goes straight to paradise and living it good the rest of eternity.  That wouldn't seem like my justice to me. 


This is just because you're a fallible human who is designed by nature to hate his enemies. I don't like the idea of Ted Bundy banqueting in heaven, but it wouldn't make things any better here or on the other side if he was in hell instead, except maybe make people a little happier.

That's a good enough answer for me.


Thank you :)