I don't know, but it seem to me like many, if not most Christians believe in forgiveness only in theory.  That is, vengeance is good and only God needs to forgive people for their wrongs.  Of course that's contradictory to the Bible, but many Christians seem to believe violence is the answer to things. 

Then there's some who do ill, than turn around and ask for forgiveness. After all Earth is only a test.

Me, I think Jesus would spit on the Christians that do think that way.

I don't know, but it seem to me like many, if not most Christians believe in forgiveness only in theory.  That is, vengeance is good and only God needs to forgive people for their wrongs.  Of course that's contradictory to the Bible, but many Christians seem to believe violence is the answer to things. 

Then there's some who do ill, than turn around and ask for forgiveness. After all Earth is only a test.

Me, I think Jesus would spit on the Christians that do think that way.



People who are Christian, are only human, the same as everyone else, make mistakes the same as everyone else, but they turn to god for forgiveness. It don't matter if another human being forgives them as long as God does.

They seem to favor retribution like with the death penalty. "An eye for an eye" is not in the Bible, it is in the Code of Hammurabi. A set of laws for the Babylonians. And Christians didn't like them.

People who are Christian, are only human, the same as everyone else, make mistakes the same as everyone else, but they turn to god for forgiveness. It don't matter if another human being forgives them as long as God does.


i agree.

They seem to favor retribution like with the death penalty. "An eye for an eye" is not in the Bible, it is in the Code of Hammurabi. A set of laws for the Babylonians. And Christians didn't like them.


It most certainly IS in the bible:
Exodus 21:23-25  "And if any mischeif follow, then thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."

Not if they are Christian Christans.  If they are American evangelical nutjobs they want to see as many people as possible go to hell so there will be more room for their righteous golf carts and SUVs in heaven!

In order to obtain my "forgivenness", the trespasser must first show remorse, apologize, and show true sign of not continuing to trespass.

In order to obtain my "forgivenness", the trespasser must first show remorse, apologize, and show true sign of not continuing to trespass.

That's not what Jesus said, but then again, the King James Bible is liberally biased.  I know from the Republican evan-jelly-beans that Jesus was a superhero ubermensch who cut men in two with giant sabers and had a blood-curdling thirst for revenge against non-believers.  The central message of Christianity unbound by liberal bias is: Every man for himself and kill the poor and the sick. Jesus also said, "Grabbeth as much as you can, howevereth you may, for thine own personal enrichment, nevermindeth the other guy, if he getteth in your way, sue-eth his azz off!"
:D

Brian Damaged wrote:
Stop bashing Christians and religion please!
Don't tell it to me, tell it to the rightwing a-holes who profane the name of Christ with their vulgar, cynical hypocrisy day in, day out.  I love Jesus and what Jesus stood for.  It's the crackpot conservative evangelicals who are perverting the central messages of Christianity with their political grandstanding and lies.  Your problem is with them, not me.

That's not what Jesus said, but then again, the King James Bible is liberally biased.  I know from the Republican evan-jelly-beans that Jesus was a superhero ubermensch who cut men in two with giant sabers and had a blood-curdling thirst for revenge against non-believers.  The central message of Christianity unbound by liberal bias is: Every man for himself and kill the poor and the sick. Jesus also said, "Grabbeth as much as you can, howevereth you may, for thine own personal enrichment, nevermindeth the other guy, if he getteth in your way, sue-eth his azz off!"
:D

Brian Damaged wrote:Don't tell it to me, tell it to the rightwing a-holes who profane the name of Christ with their vulgar, cynical hypocrisy day in, day out.  I love Jesus and what Jesus stood for.  It's the crackpot conservative evangelicals who are perverting the central messages of Christianity with their political grandstanding and lies.  Your problem is with them, not me.


So why are you answering me?

In order to obtain my "forgivenness", the trespasser must first show remorse, apologize, and show true sign of not continuing to trespass.


Lyricboy, that's my standard too. :)  Some, not all, Christians seem to think that isn't enough and that a "sinner is always a sinner and has not the right to change".
Stop bashing Christians and religion please!


I'm sorry.  I'm not bashing all Christians, just the hypocritical ones.  I'm sure you're a good Christian :)

what exactly is forgiveness?

I'll get more than one answer to this, that I know.

Stop bashing Christians and religion please!


I don't see any bashing.

My problem with most Christians (and I am not one) is their "holier than thou" atttitude.  Like most people, I have done things in my life of which I am not proud - I am a falibale human.  But I admit my frialties, and that I don't always l;ive up to my own code of ethics.  Most "christians" that I know also don't, but refuse to admit their failings and act in such a f...ing surerior way that it is disagusting.  I much prefer the Wiccan belief - "do what you will, harm none" - to their "believe as I do or go to hell" attitude.  The principles of Christianity are, in many ways, very beutiful.  I look forward to meeting a Christian who really believes and lives by them without "the attitude".

Does it matter?  Forgiveness is not for the other person's benefit -- it's for your own.

This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I found a well groomed, nicely dressed couple. The man spoke first:

John:
"Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary."

Mary:
"Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's ass with us."

Me:
"Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want to kiss His ass?"

John:
"If you kiss Hank's ass, He'll give you a million dollars; and if you don't, He'll kick the sheesh out of you."

Me:
"What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?"

John:
"Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do whatever He wants, and what He wants is to give you a million dollars, but He can't until you kiss His ass."

Me:
"That doesn't make any sense. Why..."

Mary:
"Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the ass?"

Me:
"Well maybe, if it's legit, but..."

John:
"Then come kiss Hank's ass with us."

Me:
"Do you kiss Hank's ass often?"

Mary:
"Oh yes, all the time..."

Me:
"And has He given you a million dollars?"

John:
"Well no. You don't actually get the money until you leave town."

Me:
"So why don't you just leave town now?"

Mary:
"You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the money, and He kicks the sheesh out of you."

Me:
"Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's ass, left town, and got the million dollars?"

John:
"My mother kissed Hank's ass for years. She left town last year, and I'm sure she got the money."

Me:
"Haven't you talked to her since then?"

John:
"Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it."

Me:
"So what makes you think He'll actually give you the money if you've never talked to anyone who got the money?"

Mary:
"Well, He gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll get a raise, maybe you'll win a small lotto, maybe you'll just find a twenty-dollar bill on the street."

Me:
"What's that got to do with Hank?"

John:
"Hank has certain 'connections.'"

Me:
"I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game."

John:
"But it's a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And remember, if you don't kiss Hank's ass He'll kick the sheesh of you."

Me:
"Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to Him, get the details straight from Him..."

Mary:
"No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank."

Me:
"Then how do you kiss His ass?"

John:
"Sometimes we just blow Him a kiss, and think of His ass. Other times we kiss Karl's ass, and he passes it on."

Me:
"Who's Karl?"

Mary:
"A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing Hank's ass. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times."

Me:
"And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to kiss His ass, and that Hank would reward you?"

John:
"Oh no! Karl has a letter he got from Hank years ago explaining the whole thing. Here's a copy; see for yourself."

** From the desk of Karl **

Kiss Hank's ass and He'll give you a million dollars when you leave town.
Use alcohol in moderation.
Kick the sheesh out of people who aren't like you.
Eat right.
Hank dictated this list Himself.
The moon is made of green cheese.
Everything Hank says is right.
Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
Don't use alcohol.
Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.
Kiss Hank's ass or He'll kick the sheesh out of you.

Me:
"This appears to be written on Karl's letterhead."

Mary:
"Hank didn't have any paper."

Me:
"I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's handwriting."

John:
"Of course, Hank dictated it."

Me:
"I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?"

Mary:
"Not now, but years ago He would talk to some people."

Me:
"I thought you said He was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the sheesh out of people just because they're different?"

Mary:
"It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right."

Me:
"How do you figure that?"

Mary:
"Item 7 says 'Everything Hank says is right.' That's good enough for me!"

Me:
"Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up."

John:
"No way! Item 5 says 'Hank dictated this list himself.' Besides, item 2 says 'Use alcohol in moderation,' Item 4 says 'Eat right,' and item 8 says 'Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.' Everyone knows those things are right, so the rest must be true, too."

Me:
"But 9 says 'Don't use alcohol.' which doesn't quite go with item 2, and 6 says 'The moon is made of green cheese,' which is just plain wrong."

John:
"There's no contradiction between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As far as 6 goes, you've never been to the moon, so you can't say for sure."

Me:
"Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock..."

Mary:
"But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from out of space, so it could just as easily be green cheese."

Me:
"I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon was somehow 'captured' by the Earth has been discounted*. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn't make it cheese."

John:
"Ha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Hank is always right!"

Me:
"We do?"

Mary:
"Of course we do, Item 7 says so."

Me:
"You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That's circular logic, no different than saying 'Hank's right because He says He's right.'"

John:
"Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank's way of thinking."

Me:
"But...oh, never mind. What's the deal with wieners?"

Mary:
She blushes.

John:
"Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It's Hank's way. Anything else is wrong."

Me:
"What if I don't have a bun?"

John:
"No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong."

Me:
"No relish? No Mustard?"

Mary:
She looks positively stricken.

John:
He's shouting. "There's no need for such language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!"

Me:
"So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it would be out of the question?"

Mary:
Sticks her fingers in her ears. "I am not listening to this. La la la, la la, la la la."

John:
"That's disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that..."

Me:
"It's good! I eat it all the time."

Mary:
She faints.

John:
He catches Mary. "Well, if I'd known you were one of those I wouldn't have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the sheesh out of you I'll be there, counting my money and laughing. I'll kiss Hank's ass for you, you bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater."

With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off.



Thought someone might enjoy that.

Does it matter?  Forgiveness is not for the other person's benefit -- it's for your own.


I can really agree with this.  In a way it goes to the Wiccan 3 - fold rule.  Your deeds will be wisited upon you three fold, both good and evil.  Not sure I buy that completely, but there does seem to be a relationship.  Do good, ot ill and either way, it does seem to come back to you.

Does it matter?  Forgiveness is not for the other person's benefit -- it's for your own.


I think there's 3 reasons to forgive, from most to least:

1. Finding peace in yourself
2. Keeping world order
3. Turning the bad good

This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I found a well groomed, nicely dressed couple. The man spoke first:

John:
"Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary."

Mary:
"Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's a** with us."

Me:
"Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want to kiss His a**?"

John:
"If you kiss Hank's a**, He'll give you a million dollars; and if you don't, He'll kick the sh** out of you."

Me:
"What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?"

John:
"Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do whatever He wants, and what He wants is to give you a million dollars, but He can't until you kiss His a**."

Me:
"That doesn't make any sense. Why..."

Mary:
"Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the a**?"

Me:
"Well maybe, if it's legit, but..."

John:
"Then come kiss Hank's a** with us."

Me:
"Do you kiss Hank's a** often?"

Mary:
"Oh yes, all the time..."

Me:
"And has He given you a million dollars?"

John:
"Well no. You don't actually get the money until you leave town."

Me:
"So why don't you just leave town now?"

Mary:
"You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the money, and He kicks the sh** out of you."

Me:
"Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's a**, left town, and got the million dollars?"

John:
"My mother kissed Hank's a** for years. She left town last year, and I'm sure she got the money."

Me:
"Haven't you talked to her since then?"

John:
"Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it."

Me:
"So what makes you think He'll actually give you the money if you've never talked to anyone who got the money?"

Mary:
"Well, He gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll get a raise, maybe you'll win a small lotto, maybe you'll just find a twenty-dollar bill on the street."

Me:
"What's that got to do with Hank?"

John:
"Hank has certain 'connections.'"

Me:
"I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game."

John:
"But it's a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And remember, if you don't kiss Hank's a** He'll kick the sh** of you."

Me:
"Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to Him, get the details straight from Him..."

Mary:
"No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank."

Me:
"Then how do you kiss His a**?"

John:
"Sometimes we just blow Him a kiss, and think of His a**. Other times we kiss Karl's a**, and he passes it on."

Me:
"Who's Karl?"

Mary:
"A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing Hank's a**. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times."

Me:
"And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to kiss His a**, and that Hank would reward you?"

John:
"Oh no! Karl has a letter he got from Hank years ago explaining the whole thing. Here's a copy; see for yourself."

** From the desk of Karl **

Kiss Hank's a** and He'll give you a million dollars when you leave town.
Use alcohol in moderation.
Kick the sh** out of people who aren't like you.
Eat right.
Hank dictated this list Himself.
The moon is made of green cheese.
Everything Hank says is right.
Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
Don't use alcohol.
Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.
Kiss Hank's a** or He'll kick the sh** out of you.

Me:
"This appears to be written on Karl's letterhead."

Mary:
"Hank didn't have any paper."

Me:
"I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's handwriting."

John:
"Of course, Hank dictated it."

Me:
"I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?"

Mary:
"Not now, but years ago He would talk to some people."

Me:
"I thought you said He was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the sh** out of people just because they're different?"

Mary:
"It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right."

Me:
"How do you figure that?"

Mary:
"Item 7 says 'Everything Hank says is right.' That's good enough for me!"

Me:
"Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up."

John:
"No way! Item 5 says 'Hank dictated this list himself.' Besides, item 2 says 'Use alcohol in moderation,' Item 4 says 'Eat right,' and item 8 says 'Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.' Everyone knows those things are right, so the rest must be true, too."

Me:
"But 9 says 'Don't use alcohol.' which doesn't quite go with item 2, and 6 says 'The moon is made of green cheese,' which is just plain wrong."

John:
"There's no contradiction between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As far as 6 goes, you've never been to the moon, so you can't say for sure."

Me:
"Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock..."

Mary:
"But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from out of space, so it could just as easily be green cheese."

Me:
"I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon was somehow 'captured' by the Earth has been discounted*. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn't make it cheese."

John:
"Ha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Hank is always right!"

Me:
"We do?"

Mary:
"Of course we do, Item 7 says so."

Me:
"You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That's circular logic, no different than saying 'Hank's right because He says He's right.'"

John:
"Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank's way of thinking."

Me:
"But...oh, never mind. What's the deal with wieners?"

Mary:
She blushes.

John:
"Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It's Hank's way. Anything else is wrong."

Me:
"What if I don't have a bun?"

John:
"No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong."

Me:
"No relish? No Mustard?"

Mary:
She looks positively stricken.

John:
He's shouting. "There's no need for such language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!"

Me:
"So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it would be out of the question?"

Mary:
Sticks her fingers in her ears. "I am not listening to this. La la la, la la, la la la."

John:
"That's disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that..."

Me:
"It's good! I eat it all the time."

Mary:
She faints.

John:
He catches Mary. "Well, if I'd known you were one of those I wouldn't have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the sh** out of you I'll be there, counting my money and laughing. I'll kiss Hank's a** for you, you bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater."

With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off.



Thought someone might enjoy that.
I enjoyed that immensly.  Thanks for the laugh!

1. Finding peace in yourself
2. Keeping world order
3. Turning the bad good


I agree with 1 and {partially}3, but not 2.

And I'm glad someone enjoyed it, ladybug.

I agree with 1 and {partially}3, but not 2.

And I'm glad someone enjoyed it, ladybug.


Well 2 means that if we had to avenge everything, we wouldn't make it as a race. 3 is only if the offender is willing to change.  1 is obvious.

Whoa, what happened, Devo?

My problem with most Christians (and I am not one) is their "holier than thou" atttitude.  Like most people, I have done things in my life of which I am not proud - I am a falibale human.  But I admit my frialties, and that I don't always l;ive up to my own code of ethics.  Most "christians" that I know also don't, but refuse to admit their failings and act in such a f...ing surerior way that it is disagusting.  I much prefer the Wiccan belief - "do what you will, harm none" - to their "believe as I do or go to hell" attitude.  The principles of Christianity are, in many ways, very beutiful.  I look forward to meeting a Christian who really believes and lives by them without "the attitude".


well Carlos, you have just met one, I am Chriatian and I beleive that there is not one perfect person on earth, we are all human and all humans make mistakes, My way of life is "Live and let live" I don't tell anyone else how to live or run their lives. I beleive in the Lord but I won't push others to do the same.

Brian Damaged wrote:Don't tell it to me, tell it to the rightwing a-holes who profane the name of Christ with their vulgar, cynical hypocrisy day in, day out.  I love Jesus and what Jesus stood for.  It's the crackpot conservative evangelicals who are perverting the central messages of Christianity with their political grandstanding and lies.  Your problem is with them, not me.


Maxwell, where do you get that Christian = Conservative?

Maybe it's a difference in parts of the country?  Here in CA we have a large hispanic population, most of which are some form of Christian, and also happen to be Democrats.

I am conservative but not really religious at all. (I believe in God, but don't follow any religion)

I see many Jewish supporting Bush (although for obvious reasons).

I don't quite see how you're making that connection.

I say "Live and let die!"  :D

Violence for violence's sake doesn't solve anything.

Violence for violence's sake doesn't solve anything.


violence for any reason doesn't solve anything

violence for any reason doesn't solve anything


Then why is man constantly waging war to solve his problems?

And does not killing an evil person resolve something by ending said person's evils?

Then why is man constantly waging war to solve his problems?

And does not killing an evil person resolve something by ending said person's evils?



not really sure why, people always want to go to war,


If you kill an evil person,(a murderer for example) it may stop him from killing again but nothing is resolved because killing him will not bring the victims back

If you kill an evil person,(a murderer for example) it may stop him from killing again but nothing is resolved because killing him will not bring the victims back


What if their death ends a living person's torture? No one has died, but one person is in pain from being hurt. Their death will end the torture, hence resolving pain.

What if their death ends a living person's torture? No one has died, but one person is in pain from being hurt. Their death will end the torture, hence resolving pain.


It still won't undo the hurt, and If that person was being beaten, they would still have alot of emotional pain to live with.

It still won't undo the hurt, and If that person was being beaten, they would still have alot of emotional pain to live with.


Yeah, but it resolved something, and that is the physical pain. It can't solve EVERYTHING, but it can solve some things.

Yeah, but it resolved something, and that is the physical pain. It can't solve EVERYTHING, but it can solve some things.



they don't have to die for that, put into prison will serve just as well.

You're assuming this situation falls into the jurisdiction of the American Justice system.

You're assuming this situation falls into the jurisdiction of the American Justice system.


or Canadian, we don't have the death penelty out here, if we did one guy would have fried years ago.  I'm not saying I'm against the death penelty, I am just saying that is doesn't resolve everything for the people related to the victims, or for the victims themselves.

or Canadian, we don't have the death penelty out here, if we did one guy would have fried years ago.  I'm not saying I'm against the death penelty, I am just saying that is doesn't resolve everything for the people related to the victims, or for the victims themselves.


Well, yeah, it won't resolve everything. But it resolves SOME things. That was my point. It doesn't HAVE to be the way, but it CAN be, and it can solve things. Sure, there may be a better way, but it can work.

Well, yeah, it won't resolve everything. But it resolves SOME things. That was my point. It doesn't HAVE to be the way, but it CAN be, and it can solve things. Sure, there may be a better way, but it can work.



queation for ya Apricot, how did we get onto death of an evil person, we were originally talking about violence, sure death is sometimes caused by violence, but the violence I was talking about was, if someone pisses you off and you beat the crap outa them or even kill them in retailiation. That won't solve anything.

queation for ya Apricot, how did we get onto death of an evil person, we were originally talking about violence, sure death is sometimes caused by violence, but the violence I was talking about was, if someone ticks you off and you beat the crap outa them or even kill them in retailiation. That won't solve anything.


It'll shut em up.

It'll shut em up.


yeah, but it will get you 15 to 20 at the same time.

yeah, but it will get you 15 to 20 at the same time.


Still solved something.

Still solved something.


yeah but now you would have more to worry about than before.

yeah but now you would have more to worry about than before.


Yeah, I know that. My point was, violence can resolve some things. Might create more problems, but some good things come out of it.

Yeah, I know that. My point was, violence can resolve some things. Might create more problems, but some good things come out of it.


Everyone has their own opinion about everything, to me violence only leads to more violence, so by my theory, what's the point. anyone pisses me off, I say, they're not worth the trouble.

Maxwell, where do you get that Christian = Conservative?

Maybe it's a difference in parts of the country?  Here in CA we have a large hispanic population, most of which are some form of Christian, and also happen to be Democrats.

I am conservative but not really religious at all. (I believe in God, but don't follow any religion)

I see many Jewish supporting Bush (although for obvious reasons).

I don't quite see how you're making that connection.



I did not even imply Christian = Conservative.  If anything, conservatives are less Christian in their behavior than liberals and moderates.  It is the conservative evangelicals that force Christ into every issue society faces, but it's all a lot of hot air.

Yeah, I know that. My point was, violence can resolve some things. Might create more problems, but some good things come out of it.


Strange how everything has a reward and a consequence. Nothing comes without a price.  Just gotta check the tag, that's all.

I did not even imply Christian = Conservative.  If anything, conservatives are less Christian in their behavior than liberals and moderates.  It is the conservative evangelicals that force Christ into every issue society faces, but it's all a lot of hot air.


i refer to this strip. we expect so much from a benevolent diety and his peace loving son...

apologies to the small size. you have to click to view.