This is just because you're a fallible human who is designed by nature to hate his enemies. I don't like the idea of Ted Bundy banqueting in heaven, but it wouldn't make things any better here or on the other side if he was in hell instead, except maybe make people a little happier.


I think it does do some good either not knowing what in the world happened to Ted Bundy or knowing that he is buring in Hell.  I mean think about it for a second, what if we knew for sure that Ted Bundy was living it up in Heaven right now having a ball and getting everything he ever wanted whenever he wanted.  I don't know what you think Mr. Darko and I'm not about to tell you what to think but from my standpoint I see a lot of people with the attitude of "Hey I can do whatever the hell I want to, to anybody whenever the Hell I want to cause I ain't never gonna get in trouble for it."  I hate to tell you this Donnie but at 29 years old looking at a lot of other people, I serioulsy don't think to many people are good people who have respect for others cause they want to, it's cause they have to.  Fear is a very powerful thing.

I think it does do some good either not knowing what in the world happened to Ted Bundy or knowing that he is buring in Hell.  I mean think about it for a second, what if we knew for sure that Ted Bundy was living it up in Heaven right now having a ball and getting everything he ever wanted whenever he wanted.  I don't know what you think Mr. Darko and I'm not about to tell you what to think but from my standpoint I see a lot of people with the attitude of "Hey I can do whatever the hell I want to, to anybody whenever the Hell I want to cause I ain't never gonna get in trouble for it."   I hate to tell you this Donnie but at 29 years old looking at a lot of other people, I serioulsy don't think to many people are good people who have respect for others cause they want to, it's cause they have to.  Fear is a very powerful thing.


I agree. The thing is, we can never know. If Heaven is real, it makes sense Ted Bundy isn't there, since he never changed his ways. 

I agree that most people are evil at heart. Selfish would be a better word. I used to be that way, as I've gotten older I've learned to be more selfless.

I agree. The thing is, we can never know. If Heaven is real, it makes sense Ted Bundy isn't there, since he never changed his ways. 

I agree that most people are evil at heart. Selfish would be a better word. I used to be that way, as I've gotten older I've learned to be more selfless.


in a weirder way I've gotten sorta a lot less selfish than I used to be.  I can't sit here and say I have no wants or no needs cause I don't think I'd be human if I didn't, yet in another way I didn't get out of life what I truly wanted and there wasn't anything else that I really wanted besides that.  So now that that's gone, I worry about others more than what I did.

This is just because you're a fallible human who is designed by nature to hate his enemies. I don't like the idea of Ted Bundy banqueting in heaven, but it wouldn't make things any better here or on the other side if he was in hell instead, except maybe make people a little happier.

Would you rather have Ted Bundy flirting with women at the Olive Garden salad bar? At least in heaven everybody's dead already!
;D

I mean the Olive Garden here on Earth, of course. If you get to heaven and see an Olive Garden, you best check your post-mortem travel junket again!

I think it does do some good either not knowing what in the world happened to Ted Bundy or knowing that he is buring in Hell. 


The idea of Ted Bundy burning in Hell does nothing positive for me.  I don't think punishment is the point.  If we think of people in "Heaven" or "Hell" as human people.....I guess you could go there.  But that's not how I think of it at all.  What if God is much more than some human-created diety who treats "people" in human terms.  What if, after death, Bundy's spirit experiences the depth of all the grief his human self caused on earth (that would be Hell), came to a point of true repentence (understanding, completely, the wrongness of his actions), felt the regret that comes from that understanding, became cleansed, and then became part of the positive Whole that is God (just my conceptualization).  A spiritual process of sin, repentance, forgiveness, transformation, and rebirth.  THAT, in my mind, would be what it's all about -- what God and/or Jesus are all about -- transforming the bad to the good, the evil to the benevolent, hate to love, the dark to the light.  This is the kind of thinking that my study of the Bible and belief in Jesus have brought me to.

The idea of Ted Bundy burning in Hell does nothing positive for me.  I don't think punishment is the point.  If we think of people in "Heaven" or "Hell" as human people.....I guess you could go there.  But that's not how I think of it at all.  What if God is much more than some human-created diety who treats "people" in human terms.  What if, after death, Bundy's spirit experiences the depth of all the grief his human self caused on earth (that would be Hell), came to a point of true repentence (understanding, completely, the wrongness of his actions), felt the regret that comes from that understanding, became cleansed, and then became part of the positive Whole that is God (just my conceptualization).  A spiritual process of sin, repentance, forgiveness, transformation, and rebirth.  THAT, in my mind, would be what it's all about -- what God and/or Jesus are all about -- transforming the bad to the good, the evil to the benevolent, hate to love, the dark to the light.   This is the kind of thinking that my study of the Bible and belief in Jesus have brought me to.


Very much a possibilty.  Could be.  I still say that it leaves a little loop hole in my mind.  If I'm just going to get forgiven and reborn, why not do whatever the hell I want and have fun? Cheat my way to the top? Kill those who get in my way?  I mean logically speaking I'd never do those things cause I don't wanna.  Too much love inside of me for that I guess, but the question remains.

The idea of Ted Bundy burning in Hell does nothing positive for me.  I don't think punishment is the point.  If we think of people in "Heaven" or "Hell" as human people.....I guess you could go there.  But that's not how I think of it at all.  What if God is much more than some human-created diety who treats "people" in human terms.  What if, after death, Bundy's spirit experiences the depth of all the grief his human self caused on earth (that would be Hell), came to a point of true repentence (understanding, completely, the wrongness of his actions), felt the regret that comes from that understanding, became cleansed, and then became part of the positive Whole that is God (just my conceptualization).  A spiritual process of sin, repentance, forgiveness, transformation, and rebirth.  THAT, in my mind, would be what it's all about -- what God and/or Jesus are all about -- transforming the bad to the good, the evil to the benevolent, hate to love, the dark to the light.   This is the kind of thinking that my study of the Bible and belief in Jesus have brought me to.

That's a more philosophical vision of hell than the literalist, like you see in Far Side cartoons! Theologians through the ages have discussed the nature of hell apart from the popular fire-and-brimstone vision. What you say about Ted Bundy's spirit experiencing in the hereafter all the pain he caused because of his actions in this life lends itself to Eastern ideas of Karma.

Of course, the funny-mentalists know it all! Dante has nothing on Tim LaHaye! Pat Robertson says it, I believe it, and that settles it!


Very much a possibilty.  Could be.  I still say that it leaves a little loop hole in my mind.  If I'm just going to get forgiven and reborn, why not do whatever the hell I want and have fun? Cheat my way to the top? Kill those who get in my way?  I mean logically speaking I'd never do those things cause I don't wanna.  Too much love inside of me for that I guess, but the question remains.

That's why I think Christians and Muslims are more dangerous than Wiccans or Atheists...the Abrahamic guys have to be threatened with hellfire in order not to kill, steal, rape, and lie! I have heard atheists on the panel try to explain why you don't need God in order to be moral. The Christian fundie on the panel can never get his head around it!

Very much a possibilty.  Could be.  I still say that it leaves a little loop hole in my mind.  If I'm just going to get forgiven and reborn, why not do whatever the hell I want and have fun? Cheat my way to the top? Kill those who get in my way?  I mean logically speaking I'd never do those things cause I don't wanna.  Too much love inside of me for that I guess, but the question remains.


If you're just forgiven later, you're not truly sorry, and not worthy of forgiveness. Forgiveness is about changing your ways.

I'm against the death penalty because the people who support it are the types who don't believe in second chances.


Really?  Someone rapes and murders 3 little girls and they deserve a second chance?  To do what?  Rape and murder again?  I don't think the death penalty should be applied for every crime, only the very severe and egregious deserve it.  However, people who commit capital offenses........if given a second chance........will do it again.  Go read up on recidivism rates.

Really?  Someone rapes and murders 3 little girls and they deserve a second chance?  To do what?  Rape and murder again?  I don't think the death penalty should be applied for every crime, only the very severe and egregious deserve it.  However, people who commit capital offenses........if given a second chance........will do it again.  Go read up on recidivism rates.


In that case, they're probably beyond hope and should be put in prison for life.  People who believe in the death penalty are usually angry and closer to the mindset of the people that commit such crimes than people that are against it.

I don't think mass murderers should be let free. I do think the main reason the death penalty exists is revenge, which is why we as a society can't afford to tolerate it.  If it was seen as euthanasia instead of payback I'd be for it.

In that case, they're probably beyond hope and should be put in prison for life.  People who believe in the death penalty are usually angry and closer to the mindset of the people that commit such crimes than people that are against it.

I don't think mass murderers should be let free. I do think the main reason the death penalty exists is revenge, which is why we as a society can't afford to tolerate it.  If it was seen as euthanasia instead of payback I'd be for it.



Do you know how expensive it is to feed, clothe and house an inmate for their natural life?

Do you know how expensive it is to feed, clothe and house an inmate for their natural life?


The crimes done to humanity by feeding our vengeful instincts is more expensive. I wouldn't be against the death penalty if people supported it for the right reasons, like saving tax money.

The crimes done to humanity by feeding our vengeful instincts is more expensive. I wouldn't be against the death penalty if people supported it for the right reasons, like saving tax money.



I see where you're coming from in a philosophical light, but it can't always be that way.  If you're against the death penalty, you're against it no matter what reasons anyone can come up with.  Saying that there are reasons that would make you change your mind doesn't make you anti-death penalty. 

To understand why some people support it, for no matter the reason, I think you need to think about why.  Look at the crimes we put people to death for.  Do you see jaywalking, shoplifting or not rewinding the tape when you return it to Blockbuster on there?  I agree that sometimes it's used improperly and some serious reform needs to occur, but I also feel that the weight of the crime you've been accused of, if heavy enough, shouldn't get you the option of spending the rest of your life behind bars.  If you kidnap a little girl, rape her and then kill her (which is a capital offense), why should our tax dollars be spent keeping you alive (in affect, showing mercy) when you showed no mercy on that little girl? 

If you kidnap a little girl, rape her and then kill her (which is a capital offense), why should our tax dollars be spent keeping you alive (in affect, showing mercy) when you showed no mercy on that little girl? 


To preserve the difference between good people and bad people.

To preserve the difference between good people and bad people.



That sounds naive.

That sounds naive.


I don't think it is. You're talking revenge. You're saying we shouldn't show mercy to the merciless. I can understand that feeling, since you're a human being who feels hatred for people that hurt others, but that doesn't mean it's right. Saying we should act without mercy like the killer makes about as much sense as saying we should kill like the killer.

Saying we should act without mercy like the killer makes about as much sense as saying we should kill like the killer.



And saying that we should waste tax dollars on keeping the very worst of humanity alive for their natural lives makes about as little sense. 

If you're just forgiven later, you're not truly sorry, and not worthy of forgiveness. Forgiveness is about changing your ways.


"Forgiveness is about changing your ways."  Hm?  You will only forgive someone if they change?  Forgiveness is about letting go of a grievance against someone else.  *Reconciliation* comes about only if that person changes their ways.  But forgiveness is a matter of the heart chosen by the person who was harmed.  It is as much about the harmed one choosing to be free of the harm as it is anything else.  Forgiveness does not mean "what you did was okay."  It means, "I'm choosing not to carry hatred in my heart as a result of what you did to me."  Repentance requires changes ones ways.  Transformation requires allowing the love of others to heal you so that you can change your ways.  That's how I understand it anyway.  I have been harmed by certain people -- in serious ways -- but I have no desire to walk through my days hating those people or holding on to the anger I've had for what they've done.  That harms me....not them.  

If people are judged solely by their actions, we all better hope we're never in situations where we lose our control and do something unforgivable in that eternal sense.    I like to think I'm not capable of anything like that but....I wonder what goes on that list and what doesn't and who decides?

"Forgiveness is about changing your ways."  Hm?  You will only forgive someone if they change?  Forgiveness is about letting go of a grievance against someone else.  *Reconciliation* comes about only if that person changes their ways.  But forgiveness is a matter of the heart chosen by the person who was harmed.  It is as much about the harmed one choosing to be free of the harm as it is anything else.  Forgiveness does not mean "what you did was okay."  It means, "I'm choosing not to carry hatred in my heart as a result of what you did to me."  Repentance requires changes ones ways.  Transformation requires allowing the love of others to heal you so that you can change your ways.  That's how I understand it anyway.  I have been harmed by certain people -- in serious ways -- but I have no desire to walk through my days hating those people or holding on to the anger I've had for what they've done.  That harms me....not them.  

If people are judged solely by their actions, we all better hope we're never in situations where we lose our control and do something unforgivable in that eternal sense.    I like to think I'm not capable of anything like that but....I wonder what goes on that list and what doesn't and who decides?


I agree. Forgiveness is about not holding a grudge. It's about healing yourself, and being respectful. Reconciliation is different, that requires a change of heart.

If people are judged solely by their actions, we all better hope we're never in situations where we lose our control and do something unforgivable in that eternal sense.    I like to think I'm not capable of anything like that but....I wonder what goes on that list and what doesn't and who decides?
This is one of the main problems I have with Christianity.....I personally don't believe that 1 "unforgiveable" action can damn someone to hell, that if someone lived an otherwise "good" life, they will go to Heaven.  There are many Christians who would disagree with me, saying that 1 "bad" act is enough.  There are probably an equal number who would agree with me.  Additionally, there are probably an equal number who would say that the "unforgiveable action" can only be "forgiven" if I repent. 

AFA the death penalty, I am for it in certain cases, but not necessarily in all "capital offenses".  I think if someone has a history of violent crimes, commits multiple murders or rapes, and there is indisputable evidence that they committed the crimes (i.e. DNA), they should be given the death penalty.  Now, if someone has no history of violence, but like CeeKay says, loses it and kills someone, I don't think they should.

AFA the death penalty, I am for it in certain cases, but not necessarily in all "capital offenses".  I think if someone has a history of violent crimes, commits multiple murders or rapes, and there is indisputable evidence that they committed the crimes (i.e. DNA), they should be given the death penalty.  Now, if someone has no history of violence, but like CeeKay says, loses it and kills someone, I don't think they should.


  This circumstance is provided for in the law.  Actually, I should speak only for California statute...

  "Loses it and kills someone", without malice aforethought and in the heat of passion, can be considered manslaughter.  A lesser offence with an accordingly lesser penalty, but still a felony...

  California statute recognizes three varieties of homicide:

  ~Illegal - murder
  ~Justifiable - death penalty
  ~Excusable - self defense

"Forgive us our trespassers as we forgive those who trespass against us."
--Oratio Dominica

"To err is human, to forgive is divine."
--Alexander Pope

So often quoted it has become cliche, but the more I think about it, the more significance I find.
In my own life there are a lot of people who have trespassed against me who I need to forgive, and there are a lot of people who I have trespassed against who I hope will forgive me. Then I think of them, and f**k, I don't wanna...but I know if I am ever going to achieve peace of mind, I need to.

It is so easy to think of reasons not to forgive someobody and stay mad. A lot of times we have darn good reasons to not forgive. People do rotten things to us! They injure us for life sometimes. They're incalculably mean and nasty!
Who said it was easy? Pope was an epic poet of 18th century Britain who spent much of his own career translating Homer...The Iliad, the Odyssey, talk about your grudge literature! In the early eighteenth century, folks didn't take the term "divine" as lightly as the do today.  If forgiveness--true forgiveness--was easy, Pope would not have lauded it as "divine."
If it was easy to forgive people who do bad things to us, why bother to mention it in "the Lord's Prayer"? If you had to choose a few things to drill into the Christian mind every day, you stick to the most important few. That's why Cathololics cracked jokes like, "Holy Mary full of grace, help me find a parking space!" Religious doctrine tends to be heavy handed, I can't blame the faithful for a little levity.

However, as we see in pop culture today, so it was in religious culture of yore. The wisdom of the doctrine gave way to shame, vengeance, condemnation, divisiveness, and the justification of social wrongdoing by the upper classes. How many Anglican bishops lead the Lord's Prayer in the morning, and posted eviction notices in the afternoon*? Spirital wisdom was right under their noses, yet they did brutish things anyway...and you can bet they justified it.

Same goes for the "death penalty" today. You can bet Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell dredge up chapter and verse to justify their support of capital punishment, while  turning a blind eye to the basic tenets of Christianity.

*Anglican bishops owned lots of property and were notorious landlords.

And saying that we should waste tax dollars on keeping the very worst of humanity alive for their natural lives makes about as little sense. 


  And the notion of a state sanctioned ending of a human life because it's not cost effective makes me physically ill...

 

If you're just forgiven later, you're not truly sorry, and not worthy of forgiveness. Forgiveness is about changing your ways.


But what is truly sorry? 

See to me if someone killed another person and they were sorry about what they did out of fear for themselves.  Fear of punishment, and knew by being sorry that they'd get off the hook, to me that's not truly sorry.  To me truly sorry means that you'd do anything to take it back and even if the punishment still stood, you'd take it back.  Just me though, When I say I'm sorry, I mean it most of the time.

What about beyond the piddly political issues? What does it mean to be Christian? What does it mean to forgive?
???

But what is truly sorry? 

See to me if someone killed another person and they were sorry about what they did out of fear for themselves.  Fear of punishment, and knew by being sorry that they'd get off the hook, to me that's not truly sorry.  To me truly sorry means that you'd do anything to take it back and even if the punishment still stood, you'd take it back.  Just me though, When I say I'm sorry, I mean it most of the time.


 
   Is one's devotion to one's deity inspired by selfless love..?  If the alternative is, say, eternal punishment (as in Xianity) is that love freely given..?  No.  Coerced love is not true devotion because that love is only given (ie. lip service) in order to save one's proverbial ass.  So, if the omnipotent, omniscient deity knows this already, does the deity even care..?

  Edited: added "lip service"...

 
   Is one's devotion to one's deity inspired by selfless love..?  If the alternative is, say, eternal punishment (as in Xianity) is that love freely given..?  No.  Coerced love is not true devotion because that love is only given (ie. lip service) in order to save one's proverbial ass.  So, if the omnipotent, omniscient deity knows this already, does the deity even care..?

   Edited: added "lip service"...


OK, son, here's yer Bible. Now if you have any questions, don't ask!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/11/book1.gif

OK, son, here's yer Bible. Now if you have any questions, don't ask!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/11/book1.gif


  LOL!
 
  But what about the gold leaf monogrammed faux leather cover..?!

  http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-6/1193336/180px-Jean_stapleton.jpg

  Let Edith show ye some love... :P

What about beyond the piddly political issues? What does it mean to be Christian? What does it mean to forgive?
???


Haven't we been discussing that?

So often quoted it has become cliche, but the more I think about it, the more significance I find.
In my own life there are a lot of people who have trespassed against me who I need to forgive, and there are a lot of people who I have trespassed against who I hope will forgive me. Then I think of them, and f**k, I don't wanna...but I know if I am ever going to achieve peace of mind, I need to.

It is so easy to think of reasons not to forgive someobody and stay mad. A lot of times we have darn good reasons to not forgive. People do rotten things to us! They injure us for life sometimes. They're incalculably mean and nasty!
Who said it was easy? Pope was an epic poet of 18th century Britain who spent much of his own career translating Homer...The Iliad, the Odyssey, talk about your grudge literature! In the early eighteenth century, folks didn't take the term "divine" as lightly as the do today.  If forgiveness--true forgiveness--was easy, Pope would not have lauded it as "divine."
If it was easy to forgive people who do bad things to us, why bother to mention it in "the Lord's Prayer"?

YOu make good points here, Max.  If forgiveness was easy..... why do we always seem to want things to be easy?  But we do, don't we?  Some people say, "Why should I love my enemies?"  Well gosh -- it's easy to love people who already love you.  It's easy to fogive someone who hasn't really harmed you.  If that's all we do, what meaning does love and forgiveness take on?  But if we can choose to love and/or forgive when it's hard....because it's the higher ground, the better way....then life takes on an interesting purpose and perspective, doesn't it?

Holding grudges gives our enemies power over us.  Carrying hatred...again, gives our enemies power to make our lives constantly dark even when the perpetrator is gone from our lives.  Why allow that?  Forgiveness is freedom for the one who forgives and, in some cases, provides a second chance for those who have done harm.  And why do that?  Why not?  Why not use all our resources to build hope rather than to build walls and enmity?

I'm a Christian -- and I have come to this perspective through my faith -- but I also know that this perspective is not strictly a Christian one.  And I know that not all Christians would agree with me -- though I know many who do.  And that's that.  I'm off to vacation!  :)  (thanks for the interesting conversation -- good topic!)

Do you know how expensive it is to feed, clothe and house an inmate for their natural life?


Cheaper than using the death penalty on them most of the time.  According to a study done in the late 90's it costs $2 million more to execute a prisoner than to incarcerate him for life

Cheaper than using the death penalty on them most of the time.  According to a study done in the late 90's it costs $2 million more to execute a prisoner than to incarcerate him for life


In 2015 it'll be different. The court fees and attorney fees will no longer be a problem and I got this from a reliable source.

Doc Emmett L Brown, "Now that they've abolished all Lawyers!"

can't you just get forgiveness by going to a confessional, or is that catholics?

Cheaper than using the death penalty on them most of the time.  According to a study done in the late 90's it costs $2 million more to execute a prisoner than to incarcerate him for life

The Right is trying to do something about that too! They're going to let Wal-Mart import China's justice system, as scheduled:

6:00 p.m. Arraignment.
8:00 a.m. Trial
12:00 p.m. Conviction.
3:00 p.m. Sentencing.
4:00 p.m. Appeal.
6:00 p.m. Appeal denied.
7:00 p.m. Sentence restored.
9:00 p.m. Last bowl of noodles.
11:30 p.m. Last cigarette.
12:00 a.m. Execution by hanging.
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/05/hanged.gif

   LOL!
   
   But what about the gold leaf monogrammed faux leather cover..?!

   http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-6/1193336/180px-Jean_stapleton.jpg

   Let Edith show ye some love... :P


Edit' would'ja stifle there, hah?

http://timstvshowcase.com/aif.jpg