I think the fact that you've given birth seals it ;)


I think you are right. :D

Unless...

http://www.thearnoldfans.com/filmography/junior/cover.jpg

Shhhhh...don't tell anyone my secret. ;)

I'm sorry, but I don't respect your opinion. I can't respect arguments that don't involve logical reasoning.



I can't respect arguments that are GHEY!!!!!111oneonetwosixspatula

I follow the teachings of Christ, though I am the proud namer of Absorbism.

A lot of people, like yourself, talk about how great God is and how much he loves us. Have you ever felt as though your God hates you? I often feel like God hates me, like I'm doing something to tick him off, and I'm being punished for it. Have you ever felt this way, or something similar? Like God was leaving when things got hard, or that he just didn't care? Lemme know. I guarantee in a week or so Hairspray'll have this on the political board.

With me, it was more that I felt that God required me to hate myself, and I wasted entire decades savagely ripping at my own soul. Then, one day (and believe me, I'm no prophet), God gently pointed me to the Cross and told me "Courage...I've already taken care of all that for you." The Bible speaks of God "hating" many things (action, and I haven't got space or time to deal with "hate" in a Semitic culture), but He Is Love (essence). I think Jesus is extremely tolerant and understanding of our sins against Him and against ourselves; he forgave every sinner he came in contact with and said "every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven" (Matt.12:31, NIV). I also think He is extremely intolerant of the crap we put each other through; nevertheless, when we get it through our thick skulls what we have done, and repent (that is, Quit it! Enough already! Sheesh!), He will always, always forgive. God is love; Jesus is the bodily representation of that divine self-sacrificing love that is willing, now, then, and forever, to take our sins, to take our guilt, and yes, to take our crap and keep coming back.

I won't say God bless you; He is, every day, even right now. I hope this helps.

Do you believe in oxygen? ;)

I don't believe, but I am not completely closed off to the idea of Christianity (or any other religion, for that matter). However, if I do become religious again, I will end up being Unitarian Universalist or a more liberal-minded (not neccesarily in the political sense) sect.


I humbly offer the following: forget, for a moment, the "idea" of Christianity (and by the way, if it's just an idea, then the hell with it). Was there ever a historical person named, probably, Yeshua ben-Youssef, of Nazareth, an obscure self-trained and self-certified "rabbi", who lived oh, about two thousand years ago, and collected together a rag-tag rabble of "disciples" from all levels of society (fishermen, a corrupt government official, religious nuts, etc.) who wandered around the countryside subsisting on the bounty of rich women (Luke 8:2-3), yet who scattered like diseased rats when he was executed by the Roman authority?

If you think you can reasonably answer "Yes, probably" to that question, then I only have three more:

1. Is there today a religion called, for lack of a better term, Christianity, that is the spiritual home of one-sixth of humanity, is more widely distributed globally than any other faith, and has survived two thousand years of hatred and persecution all designed to eliminate it from the minds and hearts of men?

2. Why?

3. How?

God will bless your spiritual journey; have no doubt about that! (P.S. try the Moravians, if you can find a congregation near you!)

With me, it was more that I felt that God required me to hate myself, and I wasted entire decades savagely ripping at my own soul. Then, one day (and believe me, I'm no prophet), God gently pointed me to the Cross and told me "Courage...I've already taken care of all that for you." The Bible speaks of God "hating" many things (action, and I haven't got space or time to deal with "hate" in a Semitic culture), but He Is Love (essence). I think Jesus is extremely tolerant and understanding of our sins against Him and against ourselves; he forgave every sinner he came in contact with and said "every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven" (Matt.12:31, NIV). I also think He is extremely intolerant of the crap we put each other through; nevertheless, when we get it through our thick skulls what we have done, and repent (that is, Quit it! Enough already! Sheesh!), He will always, always forgive. God is love; Jesus is the bodily representation of that divine self-sacrificing love that is willing, now, then, and forever, to take our sins, to take our guilt, and yes, to take our crap and keep coming back.

I won't say God bless you; He is, every day, even right now. I hope this helps.


Good paragraph, I will hand it to you. But it's a little late in coming. I've really lost my faith that I once had, and it doesn't seem to come back. I always heard that I would come crashing down without God, but I haven't seen it. If it happens, by all means, I'd turn back. But I don't see it.

1. Is there today a religion called, for lack of a better term, Christianity, that is the spiritual home of one-sixth of humanity, is more widely distributed globally than any other faith, and has survived two thousand years of hatred and persecution all designed to eliminate it from the minds and hearts of men?

2. Why?

3. How?

1. Not really (to the question as you put it)
Christianity covers a broad spectrum of "sub-religions", each with their own creeds, beliefs and ceremonies.  Many of these differences are mutually exclusive.  Churches also adapt their local cultural beliefs thus separating them from the global aspect of christianity.
Christianity is, therefore, too wide a term to be useful when talking about numbers of followers.  Some "christians" will hold beliefs that differ more from other "christians" than from followers of non christian religions (especially judaism, islam and bahai)
The percentages of the worlds population that follow any particular sect of christianity will be quite small.

For distribution, see above but distribution of a religion tends to be based on conquest and is not necessarily a pointer to the 'quality' of a religion.

Christianity has only been around for approx 1600 years (it did not start with the birth of the christ)

As for persecution and hatred, this is just spin.  Human beings have persecuted each other throughout recoreded history for, on the face of it, many different reasons.  Christians have been on the receiving end of this no more than any other identifiable group of people (see first comment).
In fact, christians have been the persecutors many times and many cases of persecution against christians has come from other christians!
I am not aware of any significant cases in history where persecution has been in the form of an attempt "to eliminate it from the minds and hearts of men"
In fact, in my country (UK), religion (predominantly christian) enjoys privileges far above it's merit.  The government (democracy?) has representatives from the christian church who have real power which derives from no democratic authority.  These men were simply elected by the (a)  christian church.
Under UK law, you can ridicule any belief I hold, as you would expect with free speech, except my beliefs about religion.  It is an offence to question these things.  There is still a law that means that all people who do not profess christianity are committing an offence (blasphemy)
I hardly think that christians have been persecuted for 2000 years!

2.
Social evolution doesn't imply "why".  There is no designer or intelligent guiding force. If there is, it has not revelaed itself to me or explained to me why it does what it does.

3.
How has christianity survived?
Beliefs/ideas (memes) spread through society.  There are a variety of reasons why they may spread or decline.  In the case of christianity, the main reason is social conditioning.  Most theists live ond die with the religious beliefs of their parents/local environment.
Many beliefs have spread across the world, we now look back on many a foolish (flat earth, sun gods, alchemy, etc.)
Christianity has many aspects which will make it popular and parents will pass it on to their children (just like genes).

Why is Christianity considered a religion?  And why just because you believe in God, must people assume that you are a Christian?  The definition of Christian is one who believes in Christ and who has a personal relationship with Him.

Why is Christianity considered a religion?  And why just because you believe in God, must people assume that you are a Christian?  The definition of Christian is one who believes in Christ and who has a personal relationship with Him.


What do you mean by "believe in God?"

I think your answer lies in your own question.

Well you see, many people ask "Do you believe in God?" If I was to say yes, they assume that I am a Christian, but that doesn't mean that I am.  Many people believe in God but are not Christians.  So is it really a proper question just to ask "Do you believe in God?"

Do you believe in oxygen? ;)


There are tests I can perform which give consistent results to show that something exists which we call oxygen.  I do not know of any test which I can perform which shows that God exists

How can we live without oxygen?

How can we live without oxygen?


we can't.  but I don't see the connection to this thread.

oh lol I think that I got confused somewhere along the line.  I thought that someone brought up oxygen and you answered it but I guess they thought....never mind I am confusing myself some more.

Someone did bring up oxygen and I did answer it.  I'm guessing (though I'm not sure) that they are trying to say that people 'believe' in oxygen even though we can't see it therefore we should believe in God.

I guess my reply to you was to get you to think whether your question really followed on from mine.  Not wanting to put words in to your mouth but I thought you might be making the point that, like we can't live without oxygen, we can't live without God.  I am kind of assuming that was darktowers point when they asked about oxygen.

oh okay. I was just going to say that if there is no oxygen how are we living.  I wasnt going to relate it to God.  But that was a good point whoever did it.

That's a fair point, Pink Kitty.  We need oxygen to survive so whether we believe in it or not (whatever that means) it will be there .  To my mind there is no 'believing' about physical things because, on the whole, we can demonstrate that they exist.

There are tests I can perform which give consistent results to show that something exists which we call oxygen.  I do not know of any test which I can perform which shows that God exists


Sure you do. The question is: are you willing to set up the apparatus and run the thing? Experiment design: "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38). I assure you the results are replicable; they have been experimentally confirmed for centuries, all around the world. I admit it's a little like Dr. Jekyll drinking his potion, or Jeff Goldblum climbing into the chamber, but what's life without thrill?

Rejoice in the Lord!

Someone did bring up oxygen and I did answer it.  I'm guessing (though I'm not sure) that they are trying to say that people 'believe' in oxygen even though we can't see it therefore we should believe in God.

I guess my reply to you was to get you to think whether your question really followed on from mine.  Not wanting to put words in to your mouth but I thought you might be making the point that, like we can't live without oxygen, we can't live without God.  I am kind of assuming that was darktowers point when they asked about oxygen.


Hi...darktower here. Sorry about the confusion (dang gnomic wisdom, anyway!). Point is - if God is the "ground of existence" as the medieval philosophers formulated it- if He is the great I Am - then He exists, because I most definitely exist, and I couldn't if there were no Existence to begin with. If, on the other hand, the fact of existence is the result of random quantum fluctuations in nothing, as modern physics would seem to have it - then I don't know what the hey I'm talking about, and may not even be here.

Because I can breathe, oxygen exists. Because I can exist - God exists.

No it's not.  Jewish people believe in God, but they don't believe that Jesus is his son.  They believe in a single God, not the Holy Trinity that Christians believes in.  And, I don't think ANYONE can confuse Judaism with Christianity.

Oh okay I actually did not know that.

Sorry, still not tangible proof that God exists.


If you mean "touchable with human fingers" - nope, I can't help you there. This is transnatural, not natural; the rules of science or "natural philosophy" don't apply. Hm..if you mean "capable of objective demonstration" - go interview some Christians ( I almost said "believers" but I am a Christian so I guess you'll just have to pardon me for team spirit), unless that's too much like hearsay evidence. If you mean  "evident; real" - I'd offer my own experience, except that you don't know me.

I wonder what you "see" when you think of God? A giant old bearded man? A "spirit" - some sort of possibly filmable ghost? A mighty Force, perhaps, glowing with neon holiness? A Humongous Cosmic Vanilla Custard, filling every inch of spacetime? I think St. John grasped it best by saying "God is Love", where the linking verb "is" has the mathematical force of "=". Lovers really shouldn't demand "proof" of love, should they? Shouldn't they just enjoy the experience? I'm not sure what result you're expecting.

Yes I do.  God is simple and people are complicated and tend complicate things.  The question is do you have a relationship with him.  I'm a believer and know him from personal experience.  I know that people want to see faith be real not fake and I think people don't nessesarily reject God as much as the hypocrocy they see.  If a person really knew God's presence and love, they would know he is real and loves them.  If you're a believer please be real and not fake because folks can spot a mile away and that's one thing we don't need more of.  The church needs to be the church and quit playing church.  In no way am I implieing those things to the author of this thread. ;)


Thou art not far from the Kingdom of God...in fact, thou art smack in the middle, giving high fives to everybody. You've refreshed my heart, brother!

I believe in faith, but not the institution. Not to dis anybody but I have a real problem with religions that accept other HUMANS as their divine leaders.
I also don't care for religious fanatics who bend over backwards trying to convert people.

What do you mean by bending over backwards to convert people?  I guess what I am trying to prove is that people in churches are taught to hurry and be speakers of God and to get everyone to believe.  Personally, I think that it is quite irresponsible.

I believe in faith, but not the institution. Not to dis anybody but I have a real problem with religions that accept other HUMANS as their divine leaders.
I also don't care for religious fanatics who bend over backwards trying to convert people.

I object to the state using religion, or collaborating with religion, to manipulate the people.  That is exactly what the American Fascist Party (aka Republican) has been doing for the past 25 years.

What do you mean by bending over backwards to convert people?  I guess what I am trying to prove is that people in churches are taught to hurry and be speakers of God and to get everyone to believe.  Personally, I think that it is quite irresponsible.


It is irresponsible.

Nobody can be forced to belive, you have to make that leap of faith yourself.

It's a personal thing.

This is why the 'Critical Coalition' are such a dangerous bunch. There sole objective is to have everybody belive what they want to.

Hey guys, i thought you left England because we were puritanical.

It is irresponsible.

Nobody can be forced to belive, you have to make that leap of faith yourself.

It's a personal thing.

This is why the 'Critical Coalition' are such a dangerous bunch. There sole objective is to have everybody belive what they want to.

Hey guys, i thought you left England because we were puritanical.


To the contrary. The Pilgrims wanted religious freedom to away from the Church of England so they could be extremist as they want to be. "The Crucible" is a very good representation of Puritan America and how this nation began.

I agree.  I think that the pilgrims left becuase they wanted religious freedoms but here we are today wanting to force religion on people.

To the contrary. The Pilgrims wanted religious freedom to away from the Church of England so they could be extremist as they want to be. "The Crucible" is a very good representation of Puritan America and how this nation began.


True enough..

The Crucible also ties in well with the McCarthyist Tactics employed by a lot of these Modern day groups. If you don't follow our line of thought you are obviously either a terrorist, or you support them.

'A smear campaign of groundless acusations from which the accused cannot escape, because professions of innocence become admissions of guilt and only confessions are accepted.'

Yup, rings true now as well...

I agree.  I think that the pilgrims left becuase they wanted religious freedoms but here we are today wanting to force religion on people.


Good morning, Kitty; thanks for the "good point" the other day. I'm not speaking directly to you here, but I am taking occasion regarding something you say to ask a general question: why is Christian witness widely seen as "telling us how to live", "forcing religion" on people, or "cramming something down somebody's throat"? Christianity is our weak attempt to spread the good news - the gospel - that man's long search for the transcendent - the divine - for answers - is over. It's come and found us!

In his letter to the Galatian church, Paul writes that "the acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft (apologies to the Wiccans; IMO, Paul was not after you folks here); hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage (apologies to everybody, but in my limited time here, I've already seen some of that!)....envy, drunkenness, orgies, and the like" (Gal. 5:19-21). Now, aside from you rowdies in the back who are pumping your fists and going "WHOOAH!" - who finds any of this attractive? And if you do, please consider carefully why.

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control" (Gal. 5:22-23). Are these what you object to having shoved down your throat? And yes, I already hear your strenuous objections. "Do you think that Christians alone can have these qualities?" Of course not. However, I can tell you that Christ's power in me makes all these things both easier and more fulfilling to practice, and much more powerfully effective when practiced (yes, especially among the family of believers).

At one time, I too didn't believe in a God who personally contacted people. I'd never seen it; I'd never heard it; I thought people who said they did were, well, lying hypocrites with an agenda. Then it happened to me. Be open to possibility. "Seek and you will find." Or be found. That's all I'm saying.

1. Not really (to the question as you put it)
Christianity covers a broad spectrum of "sub-religions", each with their own creeds, beliefs and ceremonies.  Many of these differences are mutually exclusive.  Churches also adapt their local cultural beliefs thus separating them from the global aspect of christianity.
Christianity is, therefore, too wide a term to be useful when talking about numbers of followers.  Some "christians" will hold beliefs that differ more from other "christians" than from followers of non christian religions (especially judaism, islam and bahai)
The percentages of the worlds population that follow any particular sect of christianity will be quite small.

For distribution, see above but distribution of a religion tends to be based on conquest and is not necessarily a pointer to the 'quality' of a religion.

Christianity has only been around for approx 1600 years (it did not start with the birth of the christ)

As for persecution and hatred, this is just spin.  Human beings have persecuted each other throughout recoreded history for, on the face of it, many different reasons.  Christians have been on the receiving end of this no more than any other identifiable group of people (see first comment).
In fact, christians have been the persecutors many times and many cases of persecution against christians has come from other christians!
I am not aware of any significant cases in history where persecution has been in the form of an attempt "to eliminate it from the minds and hearts of men"
In fact, in my country (UK), religion (predominantly christian) enjoys privileges far above it's merit.  The government (democracy?) has representatives from the christian church who have real power which derives from no democratic authority.  These men were simply elected by the (a)  christian church.
Under UK law, you can ridicule any belief I hold, as you would expect with free speech, except my beliefs about religion.  It is an offence to question these things.  There is still a law that means that all people who do not profess christianity are committing an offence (blasphemy)
I hardly think that christians have been persecuted for 2000 years!

2.
Social evolution doesn't imply "why".  There is no designer or intelligent guiding force. If there is, it has not revelaed itself to me or explained to me why it does what it does.

3.
How has christianity survived?
Beliefs/ideas (memes) spread through society.  There are a variety of reasons why they may spread or decline.  In the case of christianity, the main reason is social conditioning.  Most theists live ond die with the religious beliefs of their parents/local environment.
Many beliefs have spread across the world, we now look back on many a foolish (flat earth, sun gods, alchemy, etc.)
Christianity has many aspects which will make it popular and parents will pass it on to their children (just like genes).


I don't know if you saw the first part of my post or not; it's not quoted. My point is, why didn't such a goofy and improbable belief system not die out, or get stamped out, a long time ago ("turn the other cheek"; "resist not one who is evil" - please.)

By "Christianity", I mean "the total number of individuals who are in a personal relationship of love, trust, and understanding with a certain Yeshua ben Youssef of Nazareth, commonly referred to as Jesus Christ, whose life, death, and ressurection from the dead proved him to be the earthly embodiment of a transcendent, infinite, possibly multidimensional being of jaw-dropping power and authority over the universe in all its parts and events." Everything else you mention are the merest incidentals. (And I agree with you about the name "Christianity.)

In your reference to "1600 years", I assume you're talking about the institutionalized whooptidoo that got started about the time of the council of Nicaea and the defeat of Arianism. See definition above.

Persecution and hatred? O.K., you caught me out on that one. Thanks for taking me down a peg.

With respect, such a force has revealed itself to me. I seek no glory; I was not deserving, and still am not; I am no prophet; He doesn't beam signals into my head 24-7 (thank God I made that aluminium cap). I'm just saying.

My knowledge of meme theory is, admittedly, sketchy; help me out. Does the mere identification of a meme speak to its truth value in any way? And my parents were gentle agnostics; I went through so many "isms" it isn't funny, and I practiced Christianity for twenty years before I was given the gift of becoming a Christian. I seem to have been a tough nut for a meme to infect.

"The percentages of the world's population that follow any particular sect of Christianity will be quite small." Quite so. We are the salt of the earth. How much salt do you want on your food? ;D