It was reported today in The new York Times and on CNN that the National Security Agency has been spying on Americans, had as +/- 500 people under survailance at any given time.  It gets no warrents and submits to no extra agency accountability.  It can read your e-mail, trace your phone calls etc.

Big Brother is watching!

Bushworld-2001-2008

The New York Times

As a result of this program, a terrorist plot involving convicted al Qaeda operative Lyman Faris was uncovered, possibly saving untold lives, not to mention New York bridges and Washington, DC trains.


But that does not matter.  If they spy on even 1 innocent person, then it is wrong and should be stopped.  Right?

Personally, this is another "big yawner" for me.  Who cares?  And do you think your e-mail and phone calls are very secure in the first place?  I can (and have) monitored home cordless phones and cell phones with a scanner I bought for $200 from Radio Shack.  I have used packet sniffers, and monitored the internet activity of hundreds of people living in my community.

Once again, so what?

This is mostly a simple case of paranoia.  And it is not like they Government does anything with the data they collect.  As we all know, the vast majority of it (99.999999998%) simply goes into storage, never to be seen again.  In fact, the greatest asset of such information normally comes after the fact.  Then, they can go back and find what was recorded in the past, knowing what to look for.  This is a lot of what happened after 9/11.  Once they realized what happened, they were able to go back and find the information that was there all along.

I think one thing that always amazes me is that people will go "But it was there all the time", and at the same time protest that it was collected in the first place.  You simply can't have it both ways.  Even if Mr. Nichols went to the FBI and told them Tim McVey was going to blow up a Federal Building, they more then likely could not have stopped him unless they broke the rules.  So once again, so what?

And of course, if they miss the next attack, you will have a lot of the same people claiming "but they had the information all along", and useing that they will bash whoever is available.

And once agin, I was useing a "generic they".  I was not talking about anybody in particular on this board or anywhere else, simply the pundets and chronic complainers who must attack the Government at any opertunity.

Yes, I guess it is better for us all to lay down and aquiece to the taking away of our freedoms one person, one right, at a time.

No surprise there.  The 500 plus or minus figure is probably about ten or twenty times too low, but there we are...  It's no more offensive to me than the credit bureaus.

It was reported today in The new York Times


Isn't it funny that The New York Times sat on this story for about one year until the day the U.S. senate was to vote on the patriot act?

Mushroom - And just what do you do with this illegally obtained information?

NSA, CIA, American Express, AOL whoever. They've been collecting information for decades. Why are we supposed to go "Oh My God" now?


Mushroom - And just what do you do with this illegally obtained information?

Actually, if it's collected from an open frequency it isn't illegal.

I'll wait to see how the "evidence" comes out.

If, as has been alleged, they were looking at international communications (ie, messages leaving the borders of the United States) I believe that it will be found to be completely lawful and within the allowances of the Constitution.  Intra-USA communications bewteen American Citizens without a warrant or immediate probable cause would, of course, be clearly illegal.

I'm kind of amazed that pundits have not yet compared this suspected activity with the nefarious deeds of Richard Nixxon (who ordered surveillance on his domestic political enemies), or J. Edgar Hoover (who ordered surveillance to keep his blackmail capabilities high).

Mushroom - And just what do you do with this illegally obtained information?


And how was it obtained?  How do you know it was obtained illegally?

Did you know that it is legal for anybody to intercept cell phone calls?  Or to intercept wireless home phone calls?  And did you also know that it is legal to intercept any such calls that go up-down through satellites?  And how much do you want to bet that is how it was obtained!

Those fall under "radio intercepts".  And because the transmission is sent over public airwaves, there is no proof against tapping.  That's right.  It is legal to capture them.  And the NSA has been doing it for decades.  So once again, so what?

And LyricBoy is almost correct in what he says.  Collecting communications in the US is illegal, unless that communication is sent over the air.  At that time, it is legal for anybody to collect it.  Because it goes over the air, there is no guarantee of privacy.  It is a legal point that has been proven over and over again in the courts.  Just as it is legal to record private conversations in a city park or office hallway, but not in your (or somebody elses) house.  IN a home, you expect privacy.  In a public place, there is no guarantee of privacy.

I believe it has already been established that the activity was illegal, The fact that bush has refused to comment on the question, and gave a round about rationalization for what was done lends more credibility to the assertion that he knew what was being done was more than questionable. What is in dispute is whether or not their will be consequences for the White House for the abuse of power.

And how was it obtained?  How do you know it was obtained illegally?

Did you know that it is legal for anybody to intercept cell phone calls?  Or to intercept wireless home phone calls?  And did you also know that it is legal to intercept any such calls that go up-down through satellites?  And how much do you want to bet that is how it was obtained!

Those fall under "radio intercepts".  And because the transmission is sent over public airwaves, there is no proof against tapping.  That's right.  It is legal to capture them.  And the NSA has been doing it for decades.  So once again, so what?

And LyricBoy is almost correct in what he says.  Collecting communications in the US is illegal, unless that communication is sent over the air.  At that time, it is legal for anybody to collect it.  Because it goes over the air, there is no guarantee of privacy.  It is a legal point that has been proven over and over again in the courts.  Just as it is legal to record private conversations in a city park or office hallway, but not in your (or somebody elses) house.  IN a home, you expect privacy.  In a public place, there is no guarantee of privacy.


OK...fine.

The question still stands:  What do you do with this information?

For all of you who says, "Big deal, I'm not doing anything wrong", I say to you:


The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

                                                -Amendment IV United States Constitution


The fact that our rights under the Constitution are being violated is VERY scary to say the least. Look what happened in Germany during the rise of Hitler. It sets a very dangerous precedence. Another quote that I have used so often is SO true today and I wish more people will take it to heart.

They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security.

                                                    -Benjamin Franklin



Cat

ANd even more information comes out.

It seems that all of the conversations recorded were calls that were going overseas.  So while they may have originated in the US, the destination was outside of the US.  So it falls under their charter and is legal.

In fact, it falls under 2 different authorizations.  It both involves a communication overseas, and it involves a transmission over the air (hard wire overseas lines went out about 30+ years ago, it is all done over satellites nowadays).

So in short, it is legal, and it is allowed under the Constitution.

Not being a lawyer, I have no idea if what was alleged is legal or not.  In the past, the NSA focused on communication to and from foreign embassies.  Now, they are monitoring private citizens' personal communications, seemingly to people over seas.  If they are doing that, who knows what else they are doing without warrents.  It is also the case that the FBI has been using National Security Letters to get info on people from libraries, employers, book stores and others.  Those sources are gagged and the targets are never informed.

The numbers (500 was used) are not totals, it is +/- 500 AT ANY ONE TIME.


For all of you who says, "Big deal, I'm not doing anything wrong", I say to you:


The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

                                                -Amendment IV United States Constitution


The fact that our rights under the Constitution are being violated is VERY scary to say the least. Look what happened in Germany during the rise of Hitler. It sets a very dangerous precedence. Another quote that I have used so often is SO true today and I wish more people will take it to heart.

They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security.

                                                    -Benjamin Franklin



Cat






And this is why we should care.

On another level, this suggests that there are 2 kinds of conservatives on this board.  One kind, I'll lable them Libertarians, really are conserned about gov't intrusions into our lives.  The other kind, whom I won't lable, seem willing to accept whatever Big Brother wants to do.  Things get curiouser and curiouser.