1. High emphasis on mathematics and Science which are taking away from History-The Arts and other classes.

2. From a standpoint of  academics,sports and work world  - too much emphasis is put on competition.  Competition is good, but not to the point that it is today.  Cooperation and team emphasis are vital keys to success.  Notice how I'm not putting down competition, I'm stating that I believe that it's overblown in this country.  "A Team is not a team, if you don't give a D-a-m-n about one another"  and that's in anything.


Bed time...but I'll give you more.

1. High emphasis on mathematics and Science which are taking away from History-The Arts and other classes.


Whaaaa...?  Sorry gotta disagree.  When you look at the proportion of younger people today who cannot add up without using a calculator, it is absolutely pathetic.  Or when you buy something that costs $10.20 and you take a $20 bill out of your wallet, and the cash register TELLS the shop assistant to give you $9.80 change.  So you say "Here, I will give you 20 cents as well" (with the intention of getting a $10 bill back as change).  But they panic, because the register tells them $9.80...and they don't know what to do...

This is WHY we need a focus on such things at Mathematics, which, like it not, like your given language, are a necessary life skill...

As opposed to Arts, which, I am afraid, are a luxury that one should choose to pursue...

As I said in another thread, science and mathematics is essential knowledge. Everything else is just frosting on the cake.

Whaaaa...?  Sorry gotta disagree.  When you look at the proportion of younger people today who cannot add up without using a calculator, it is absolutely pathetic.  Or when you buy something that costs $10.20 and you take a $20 bill out of your wallet, and the <a  style='text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px double;' href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=24&k=cash%20register" onmouseover="window.status='cash register'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">cash register</a> TELLS the shop assistant to give you $9.80 change.  So you say "Here, I will give you 20 cents as well" (with the intention of getting a $10 bill back as change).  But they panic, because the register tells them $9.80...and they don't know what to do...

This is WHY we need a focus on such things at Mathematics, which, like it not, like your given language, are a necessary life skill...

As opposed to Arts, which, I am afraid, are a luxury that one should choose to pursue...


Good point. 

If I would have went to a school where it was all mathematics and science, I would have hated school. I enjoy some parts of science a lot, but other parts I do not enjoy yet see the importance of them and I'm glad I took them.  Math I've never been good at, if school would have been all math, I would have hated it royally.  Government, History, philosophy, pyschology,Study of the Economic world, Theatre, Creative Writing, American Literature = These are the classes I excelled in and what made me enjoy school. 

I have to say I agree with the standpoint of more emphasis being put on Math & Science....not that I think the rest should be thrown out, but Math & Science are what people use every day.  When I cook dinner for my family, I need to know what ingredients to put together (science) and in what quantities (math).  The others are good to know, but they are not used on a daily basis.  Now, even if you don't cook, you STILL need to know at least basic mathematics because it's used in things you wouldn't even realize.  I'll elaborate more later....I have to go....


I think you did a fine job of making your point without elaboration.  I got the main jist of it anyway, and agree math and science are very important. 

But let's take a look at what I'm going to be doing for a living.  Tell me how much mathematics is inquired to be able to write a good story for a magazine or theatre?  Cause I can tell you how essential creative writing, pyschology and humanities are.   

I'm not putting down math or science at all in comparisson to importance.  It's just that I view history and English as equal.

Math and Science are essential in everyday life, but so are other areas of study. History for instance. It is not a matter of memorizing names, dates and places. That doesn't teach a thing. But it about cause and effect. And "those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it" (George Santayana). In other words, we must learn from the mistakes of the past.  Writing is also essential. I once took a video writing course. I didn't think I could get a lot out of a video course but this one I did. It showed how writing effects EVERYTHING, from writing insurence claims to writing resumes. And we can see how writing effects us on this board.





Cat

Math and Science are essential in everyday life, but so are other areas of study. History for instance. It is not a matter of memorizing names, dates and places. That doesn't teach a thing. But it about cause and effect. And "those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it" (George Santayana). In other words, we must learn from the mistakes of the past.  Writing is also essential. I once took a video writing course. I didn't think I could get a lot out of a video course but this one I did. It showed how writing effects EVERYTHING, from writing insurence claims to writing resumes. And we can see how writing effects us on this board.





Cat


Agreed

As opposed to Arts, which, I am afraid, are a luxury that one should choose to pursue...


Arts are more than just a luxury. It is vital that people be well read in the literature of their native language, and that they know World History. They also need to be able to string together a cogent sentence, and it helps them immensely to be proficient in a foreign language or two. Maths and Sciences are definitely important, but let's just face that the average person has more need of communication skills than Physics. Emphasis should be (and is) placed on Math and English these days. Even science takes a back seat. Who cares if I can balance a chemical equation if I can barely spell my own name? Don't get me wrong... sciences are essential, but excellent language skills must be attained before a student can even hope to succeed in any science.

I think that all areas of education are important and are more than a mere luxury. We expect too little from our students in this country, and that is why we get so little. Students should be held accountable to a high standard in ALL areas of study.

Yes, English is essential to YOU, but what about someone who isn't planning on going into journalism or theater?  Basic English, yes, but not literature or creative writing.  IMO, math is THE most important subject (I'm talking basic math, not algebra, trig or geometry) as you use this on a daily basis.

I think everyone can make an argument FOR whatever subject they're interested in, but I doubt there are many viable arguments that can be made AGAINST math.


I'm not making any arguments against math.  I think math is extremely important and I see the beauty in it and if anyone is going to try and eliminate it, I'll be on the fighting side of keeping it.  I happen to not like math, because I try hard at at but it just does not come to me.  That doesn't mean I want to abolish it or see it become an obilvion. 

Basic math is extremely essential.  From everything financial records to keeping score at the basketball game.

I just think the emphasis on all the mathematical stuff that no one except the majors in engineering are going to use shouldn't be required at such a high level among everyone. 

In all sense of reality it's not very comprehensible that anyone could make arguements against any of the primary subects.

Arts are more than just a luxury. It is vital that people be well read in the literature of their native language, and that they know World History. They also need to be able to string together a cogent sentence, and it helps them immensely to be proficient in a foreign language or two. Maths and Sciences are definitely important, but let's just face that the average person has more need of communication skills than Physics. Emphasis should be (and is) placed on Math and English these days. Even science takes a back seat. Who cares if I can balance a chemical equation if I can barely spell my own name? Don't get me wrong... sciences are essential, but excellent language skills must be attained before a student can even hope to succeed in any science.

I think that all areas of education are important and are more than a mere luxury. We expect too little from our students in this country, and that is why we get so little. Students should be held accountable to a high standard in ALL areas of study.


Very well put. Excellent illustrations.

To many people graduate and don't have good languish skills.  How can they learn to be successfull if they cant read and right?

To me, this is silly.  All academic subjects are important, and I can tell you that the freshmen I have dealt with are ill prepared in all of them.

What really confuses me is identifying math and science, or any other subjects as especially conservative (or liberal) issues. 

To me, this is silly. All academic subjects are important, and I can tell you that the freshmen I have dealt with are ill prepared in all of them.

What really confuses me is identifying math and science, or any other subjects as especially conservative (or liberal) issues.


True, people need to learn how to learn and think and analyze in all kinds of different ways.  Kids should learn math AND science AND arts AND humanities.  They have to learn how to interpret information, think logical and evaluate information inteligently.

To me, this is silly.  All academic subjects are important, and I can tell you that the freshmen I have dealt with are ill prepared in all of them.

What really confuses me is identifying math and science, or any other subjects as especially conservative (or liberal) issues. 
Yes. As it is I am re-learning basic maths that they don't bother with at school (past standard 4 - about age 10) - I think too many people are leaving primary (elementary) school level without basic maths, reading and writing skills.

Whenever they're trying to force a change on society, who do they lock up?  Philosophers or chemical engineers? 

Whenever they're trying to force a change on society, who do they lock up?  Philosophers or chemical engineers? 


That all depends on the change you want to make.

If you are talking about a toltarian society, then it is the philosophers.  But then again, Stalin and Mao also locked up scientists because they were afraid they would be more critical of the politicians then normal people.

If a nation was taken over by an ultra-green political system, then it would probably be the engineers who would be locked up.  Anybody who would be a threat to the ideology is to be removed.  If you want to see what that would be like, check out a book called Fallen Angels, by Larry Niven, Jerry Pournelle, and Michael Flynn.  Another example I can think of is the miniseries/TV Series V, where scientists in general were hunted down as dangerous dissidents.

This is why I stay away from extreemists in general.  I distrust far-left just as much as I do far-right.

That all depends on the change you want to make.

If you are talking about a toltarian society, then it is the philosophers.  But then again, Stalin and Mao also locked up scientists because they were afraid they would be more critical of the politicians then normal people.

If a nation was taken over by an ultra-green political system, then it would probably be the engineers who would be locked up.  Anybody who would be a threat to the ideology is to be removed.  If you want to see what that would be like, check out a book called Fallen Angels, by Larry Niven, Jerry Pournelle, and Michael Flynn.  Another example I can think of is the miniseries/TV Series V, where scientists in general were hunted down as dangerous dissidents.

This is why I stay away from extreemists in general.  I distrust far-left just as much as I do far-right.

The point is ideas matter.  When you say the humanites and the arts are less important than math and science, you might as well switch off half the human brain.  What are we?  Just a bunch of worker bees?

The point is ideas matter.  When you say the humanites and the arts are less important than math and science, you might as well switch off half the human brain.  What are we?  Just a bunch of worker bees?


No, we are NOT drones, we are thinking human beings, subect to all the adantages and liabilities inherant to that status.  And yes, IDEAS certainly do matter.  Which is why education should focus on both the amassing of knowledge AND the development of a hungar for knowledge, AND the critical facility to evaluateboth math and science coursesaes AND in liberal arts courses.  The well-educated mind is an eclectuc mind.

No, we are NOT drones, we are thinking human beings, subect to all the adantages and liabilities inherant to that status.  And yes, IDEAS certainly do matter.  Which is why education should focus on both the amassing of knowledge AND the development of a hungar for knowledge, AND the critical facility to evaluateboth math and science coursesaes AND in liberal arts courses.  The well-educated mind is an eclectuc mind.


Well I'll be, I said almost the exact same thing in a conversation last night. (Ok, not the exact same thing, but the jist of it).