How do you lose 35,000 people to a heatwave in 2003??

I'm thankfull Europe didn't have something serious like a Hurricane and a levee system that failed.
Don't their governments look out for their people?

Total deaths listed in the articles:
France            14,802
Germany         7000
Spain and Italy 4200
UK                 2000


http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn4259
http://www.earth-policy.org/Updates/Update29.htm


This earlier report says has only 20,000 lost in 2003, but still...??

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/08/27/europe.heat/

How do you lose 35,000 people to a heatwave in 2003??

I'm thankfull Europe didn't have something serious like a Hurricane and a levee system that failed.
Don't their governments look out for their people?

Total deaths listed in the articles:
France            14,802
Germany        7000
Spain and Italy 4200
UK                2000


http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn4259
http://www.earth-policy.org/Updates/Update29.htm


This earlier report says has only 20,000 lost in 2003, but still...??

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/08/27/europe.heat/




This is interesting, but have you looked at the previous climate patters for Europe during those months?  They are available.  Heat waves such as Europe experienced in 2003 were not nearly as likely as hurracanes in the gulf.  GET REAL.

Government, most likely in any country (or at least in America), is always a failure, regardless of if it's liberal, moderate or conservative.

Government, most likely in any country (or at least in America), is always a failure, regardless of if it's liberal, moderate or conservative.

So who should be in charge, if not government?

The pointing seems to continue on Katrina when we've seen how the govnt. CAN'T do anything without autho from the state level..I still hear those trying to tie Bush into it somehow..he took the blame for what he felt were the govmnts. mistakes has the Gov.and mayor admitted theirs until then, they are the WEASELS ...

But hey anyone commenting on Farahkan?  He has heard on some good authority that the levees were purposely blown up by the government to get rid of the blacks and put the whites in their stead.

There's some HEAVY thinkin' for you....until the media exposes this, I think he's overdosed on some spiked jamboliah .. 

So who should be in charge, if not government?


The private sector in many cases.

But I'm not an anarchist, I know the government is needed for some things.  But history shows they screw up just about everything.  It's better the government be smaller.  I think the bigger the government, the more likely their failure.

The private section in many cases.

But I'm not an anarchist, I know the government is needed for some things.  But history shows they screw up just about everything.  It's better the government be smaller.  I think the bigger the government, the more likely their failure.

Ahem, then doesn't the "private section" become "the government"?
:D

Ahem, then doesn't the "private section" become "the government"?
:D


Oh come now, you're going to make him go cross-eyed!  :D

Oh come now, you're going to make him go cross-eyed!  :D

I'm just saying the private sector always appears more effective because for-profit business doesn't have to deal with anything that doesn't make money.
The private sector can also refer to non-profit organizations, but "private sector" is usually a euphemism for corporations.

This is interesting, but have you looked at the previous climate patters for Europe during those months?  They are available.  Heat waves such as Europe experienced in 2003 were not nearly as likely as hurracanes in the gulf.  GET REAL.


"Heat waves such as Europe experienced in 2003 were not nearly as likely as hurracanes in the gulf."

How often does New Orleans get hit with a hurricane and have its levees fail? Probably about as often as Europe sees a hot summer like 2003. Both are not common (last two hurricanes to hit New Orleans were 1965 and 1948) but look at the results of each.

(and it looks like Europe's last heatwave like 2003's, was in 1976)

I'm just saying the private sector always appears more effective because for-profit business doesn't have to deal with anything that doesn't make money.

Not completely true because the private sector directs a lot of resources into charitable endeavors; but, in the private sector, when something doesn't succeed, it goes out of business and only the investors are hurt.  In government, when something doesn't work, more tax dollars are thrown at it, and all taxpayers are hurt.

I know this is gonna be seen as cold and calous, but here it is anyways.

People will always die in things like this.

There will always be deaths in heat waves, floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, volcanos, plagues, food contamination, etc.  And it will continue happening, no matter what is done.

Sometimes it is bad luck, sometimes it is because the person is stupid.  Sometimes, the scale of the problem is just to vast to do anything about it.

And anybody who relies on any Government to protect them from something like this is a fool.

GOvernments can do a lot of things.  They can build roads, build and staff schools, maintain firestations and hospitals.  But in the event of a disaster like a flood or heat wave, all they can do is go in afterwards and try to pick up the pieces.

My biggest suggestion in this event is to not rely on the Government (or anybody else) to protect you from a disaster like that.  Nature is simply to powerful to do anything about.  And some people are simply to stubborn to do the right thing, and evacuate when something is going to happen.  When they die, it is simply "social Darwinism".

And guess what?  The Earth is just gonna get hotter.  It has been getting hotter for thousands of years, and things like heat waves and hurricanes are just gonna get worse.

But 'throwing money at something' could be looked at like 'investment' and visa versa -- it depends on your point of view.  If you believe in programs to make society stronger by helping people's lives get better, you call it investment, if you don't, then you call it throwing money at something.  

If a company wants to improve there information system and decides to buy a better one, nobody says "no, we can't throw money at the problem".  If a CEO wants to keep good people from leaving, and decides to give out big bonuses, the board doesn't say "no, don't throw money at the problem".

"Social Darwinism" is a disgusting way to talk about people who made the best decision they could and it didn't work out.  Of course tragedy happens and people die.  Some people make choices taht don't work out.  Maybe some people made bad choices.  But it is disgusting to say if somebody dies, its because they were too stupid to make a good decision, so nature weeded them out.  Disgusting.

"Social Darwinism" is a disgusting way to talk about people who made the best decision they could and it didn't work out.


I am talking about the people who choose to remain in an area.  1 great example of this is Harry Trueman.

For those that do not remember, Harry was a long time resident of Spirit Lake, which was a resort community in the shadow of Mount St. Helens.  Harry refused to evacuate, and said he wanted to die on his mountain.  And sure enough, he did.

I look the same way at people who choose to not evacuate, or who wait for somebody else to tell them to evacuate.  It does not take a brain surgeon to realize that a deadly hurricane is heading your way, and to leave.  I saw people comming to my area 2 days before it hit shore.  And this was before they even ordered an evacuation.  Waiting for the last minute is rather foolish I think.

In this day of "Big Government", people forget how to fend for themselves.  They wait for the Government to tell them what to do.  But you also have some that will not leave.  Even after New Orleans was under water, you still had people that wanted to stay there!  Even after they ordered evacuation, some still insisted on staying in their homes.

For fools like that, I do not have much pity.  They made their bed, and now they are sleeping in it.  And you can't blame The Governemtn, or anybody else for their foolish decisions.

That's what I am talking about.  People who choose to stay because of whatever there reason is. Maybe they thought it was the best thing for them to take a chance and try to protect there house, or whatever else was going through there mind.  Maybe its a little easier to leave your house if you have a little money or some education and you know you can at least start over.  But if you dont have that, and you think there is a chance you could survive, it might seem like a bigger risk to leave everything you have.  Maybe it was not the best decision, but there dead, okay?  They paid there price.  Do you have to mock them too?

That's what I am talking about.  People who choose to stay because of whatever there reason is. Maybe they thought it was the best thing for them to take a chance and try to protect there house, or whatever else was going through there mind.  Maybe its a little easier to leave your house if you have a little money or some education and you know you can at least start over.  But if you dont have that, and you think there is a chance you could survive, it might seem like a bigger risk to leave everything you have.  Maybe it was not the best decision, but there dead, okay?  They paid there price.  Do you have to mock them too?

No money, no choices. 

The Republicans blame the victims and the government because the rich and the powerful must be defended at all costs.  And to say the "free market" is wrong is as anathema as saying two and two are five.

Corporate America has told us in no uncertain terms they want only a few selected types of workers for living-wage jobs.  If you are not from a privileged background, chances are you aren't one of them.  Wall Street prognosticators declare any job that involves a "routine" shall be outsourced to Asia.  Therefore, the era of mass employment is over.  America as a nation is being fired.

The politicians, the bosses, and their progandistic hacks have no answers.  O'Reilly was up there saying, "get an education, get job skills, if you don't you'll wind up on the roof with the flood waters rising, just like those poor people in New Orleans." 
He's either snowing his audience, ignorant of the facts, or in denial.  Every individual has skills and abilities with which he or she could earn a secure living.  It is the corporations who are saying "GO TO HELL" to the American people.  Corporations don't want to pay living wages, they don't want to pay benefits, they don't want to be ecologically responsible, and they don't want to be held accountable for their behavior.  Thus, they won't invest in America unless America learns to be Third World.  A no-win situation for us!

The Limbaugh-types say "don't rely on anybody but yourself."  If the individuals are going to determine their own fate, they must wrest the government from corporate influence.  This will involve a revolution.

Its not a matter of Republicans and conservatives because a lot are decent people.  The thing is some people think society is better off if we help people take care of thereself but they might disagree about the best way to do it.  But other people think people who are suffering can just go to hell because if there bad off its there fault so too bad.

  Some people out there THINK the government is supposed to come tothere aid..maybe THEY are mistaken.

I see the news reporting and many times think how someone is missing a great opportunity to film a movie called 'FOOLS' where the 'mules' who CHALLENGE storms and disaster are interviewed...just like car chases we never see the reporters go back to interview the subject..You know people would love to see the 'before and after' event shots..call it revenge or whatever...it can be a good subject for a movie..

You're right, I too am against throwing money at everything..how will one learn?          :-\\ :-\\

You're right, I too am against throwing money at everything..how will one learn?          :-\\ :-\\


When the government throws money on the fire, it tends to flare up rather than smother the flames.

   Some people out there THINK the government is supposed to come tothere aid..maybe THEY are mistaken.



CRYPT-KEEPER/RUMSFELD '08
http://www.whatevs.org/images/Cast-Crypt-Kpr%5B1%5D.jpg
"Some people out there THINK the government is supposed to come to their aid...
maybe THEY are mistaken!"

No money, no choices. 

.  Every individual has skills and abilities with which he or she could earn a secure living.  It is the corporations who are saying "GO TO HELL" to the American people.  Corporations don't want to pay living wages, they don't want to pay benefits, they don't want to be ecologically responsible, and they don't want to be held accountable for their behavior.  Thus, they won't invest in America unless America learns to be Third World.  A no-win situation for us!

.


Cue the violins..I can't believe the crying: 'Da BIG MAN is holding us back!'  If someone can make something out of themselves..RECOGNIZING the circumstances to HELP THEMSELVES...THEY CAN DO IT!  Show me how EVERY SUCCUESSFUL person was born with a silver spoon in their mouth.....

Don't want to get out and pick strawberries for minimum wage..how about for $100 bucks an hour...AHHHHH I can hear the wheels turning "Sure!"  So the JOB is not the problem it's the pay rate...

MAKE SOMETHING OF YOURSELF! Stop finding fault with BIG BUSINESS! Wimps.

Cue the violins..I can't believe the crying: 'Da BIG MAN is holding us back!'  If someone can make something out of themselves..RECOGNIZING the circumstances to HELP THEMSELVES...THEY CAN DO IT!  Show me how EVERY SUCCUESSFUL person was born with a silver spoon in their mouth.....

Don't want to get out and pick strawberries for minimum wage..how about for $100 bucks an hour...AHHHHH I can hear the wheels turning "Sure!"  So the JOB is not the problem it's the pay rate...

MAKE SOMETHING OF YOURSELF! Stop finding fault with BIG BUSINESS! Wimps.

Good freaking grief!  You act like I tarnished your mother's good name or something!  This foaming need to jealously defend the ruling class is somwhere between Pavlov and Limbaugh.  Pavlombaugh, perhaps?  I mean, Jesus Chr*st, it reminds me of that tantrum the "Big Lebowski" (David Huddleston) throws in The Big Lebowski:

The "Big" Lebowski to "The Dude" Lebowski: "Your revolution is over, Mr. Lebowski. Condolences. The bums lost. My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?"
"The bums will always lose!"

::) ::) ::)


http://www.trageser.com/raccoons/deathtothepoor.jpg
Grand Old Pig

CRYPT-KEEPER/RUMSFELD '08
"Some people out there THINK the government is supposed to come to their aid...
maybe THEY are mistaken!"


Max, you seem to miss a couple of key points here.

For one, I am a member of "the poor".  Also, I have been through natural disasters several times in my life.  And I am not as much a "Republican" as I am a "Conservative".

I do nto believe it is the Government's job to come to the rescue of people.  I think they should, but that is a far cry fomr they must.  A lot of the problems this country has today is the bloated, piggish, wastefull pork-barrel spending that we have gotten ourselves into.  You got people who want free medical, free dental, free viagra, free housing, free food, free everything.  And I for one am sick and tired of having to help pay for it all.

Our institutions are a mess.  They are far more interested in keeping themselves in business then they are in doing their jobs.  I often wish we could take a chainsaw and cut through 80% of out "Government Institutions", and give a lot of people there pink slips.  And I am not talking about firing them and bringing in more,  I am talking about eliminating their jobs alltogether.

75 years ago, we did not have this monstrosity in place.  A lot of it did not even exist 30 years ago.  Lyndon Johnson with his "Great Society" has done horrible things for this country.  Instead of having the drive and initiative to go out and do things, a lot of people now just stand around, their hand out for a payment, and their lips trying to suck from the teet of "Big Government".  And when that does not come fast enough, they scream, rant, and rave.

People like that want to be taken care of.  They want the Government to come along and change their diapers, and will do nothing unless they are told to do it.  In my mind, they are sheep.  And I have no sympathy for the sheep when they get butchered.

I for one do not expect anything direct from the Government.  And I do not want anything from them either!  I have been self-sufficient since I was 18, and I expect to continue to be like that.  And if anybody should tep in during a disaster, I would expect it would be the local Government.  City, County, and State officials should be the first to react, and only call on the Feds if the help is really needed.  The Feds should not be the first line of defense in these instances, it should be the last.

I know people are gonna say I am heartless for this.  I know they are gonna call me an evil fascist bastich.  But guess what, I don't care!

Here is a big time reality check:  people die.  Things happen, and they die.  It sucks, it hurts, but it is a fact of life.  One thing about being in the Military (especially the Infantry), is that you accept how special and fragile life is, and you accept it's loss.  I have lost friends while I was in to "training accidents".  Yea it sucks, but that is life.  He could have been killed 2 days later crossing the street instead of being hit in the head by a miss-aimed bullet.

Yea, I feel bad for the people of New Orleans.  But ya wanna know something?  If Katrina had not turned, it would have hit me (like Dennis did this year, and 3 hurricanes last year).  I was ready to evacuate when Katrina hit Southern Florida.  Once it was obvious on Saturday morning that it was going towards New Orleans, people started to leave.  Amtrack even tried to get people to leave on the trains.  They ran free evacuation trains before Katrina hit.  And guess what?  They left empty!  That's right.  The Mayor would not publicize that they were available, just as he did not use the city busses, nor did he properly plan for the shelter at the SuperDome.

I expect only one person to look out for my health and welfare, and that is me.  I do not want GOvernment to be watching over my shoulder all the time, telling me what to do and where to go.  I do not want them to take more money out of my pocket, just so Sally with 4 kids can have free abortions as the local clinic.  I do not want my money going to RIck, so he can buy pot at a "Marijuanna Club" so he can puff up to help his "migranes".  I also do not want Maxwell to be giving me money because I need some dental work, and can't afford it yet.

If you are going to keep blaming the people who didn't evacuate, you have to at least be consistent.  First they are being stubborn, then the mayor didn't publicize how they could get out.  Which one is it?

If you are going to keep blaming the people who didn't evacuate, you have to at least be consistent.  First they are being stubborn, then the mayor didn't publicize how they could get out.  Which one is it?


Both.

But because the mayor did not stress how dangerous it was, more people felt they could just ride it out.  His complaincency just exacerbated the problem.

Both.

But because the mayor did not stress how dangerous it was, more people felt they could just ride it out.  His complaincency just exacerbated the problem.


I blame the governor of Louisiana more than the mayor of New Orleans.

But I blame the media the most.  If the media didn't hype every single tropical depression for the last five years, people may have not thought they were crying wolf and being alarmists with Katrina.

Oh well.  November 30 is the end of hurricaine season, so the media will go back to shark attacks and missing pretty women.  :-\\

The rant/speech on what to do for oneself is for those  who didn't get the info in schools...

if it sounds dramatic..it's wahat is needed to get the point across for so long..it would be nice to have welfare ELIMINATED..what do you think those collecting would do..most likely GET A JOB doing something constructive..


If Max feels the message is right(just the way stated is wrong), I hope soemone else reading is inspired or woken up to be productive out there...Not at all referring that Maxwell isn't getting it..it's just how it was said that he may not like?

Good to hear your side Mushroom..yes, there are those that fall thru the cracks but in general..there is work out there, just look at the classifieds everyday...let's just work on the compensation...maybe that is my issue. ;)

The rant/speech on what to do for oneself is for those  who didn't get the info in schools...

if it sounds dramatic..it's wahat is needed to get the point across for so long..it would be nice to have welfare ELIMINATED..what do you think those collecting would do..most likely GET A JOB doing something constructive..


I do not think that the welfare system should be eliminated.  I think it is a nessicary "safety net" for people that honestly fall on hard times.  I am just sick to death of people who abuse and exploit the system.

I am also sick of people with no initiative or drive.  These are the people who whine "I am black/hispanic/poor/uneducated/dyslexic/anorexic, and I can't work".  I have no interest in supporting whiners who will not get off their arse and do something about it.

I have always had drive and initiative.  I joined the military at 18, and in 2 years, I made Corporal (E-4).  In the Marines in the early 1980's, that was quite an achievement.  Most people spent an entire 4 year career, and never made it above Lance Corporal (E-3).  After a few years, I did something and got busted.  But less then 2 years later, I was a Corporal again.  I did not get it by kissing up, but because I was motivated.

Even after I got out, I did a lot of "scut jobs" to make ends meet.  I worked at an amusement park, sold cars, security work, and a lot of other low paying jobs.  But every year, I could look back and for the most part was farther along then I was the year before.

Nobody starts out with a $15-30 an hour job.  For the most part, we start at minimum wage, and work our way up.  But a lot of people thumb their noses at "minimum wage", never realizing that if they have drive and initiative, they will not be there for long.  But most are willing to simply coast their way through life, taking what is handed to them.

Then they complain when all that is handed to them is feeces.

If somebody has that drive, I am willing to do whatever I can for them, especially if they fall on hard times.  I know that eventually they will pick themselves up again, and go even further then they did before.

Those that simply want to coast, they get what they are asking for.

I am not heartless, and I am not cruel.  I feel bad for everybody that was affected by Katrina.  But now we will see who will take advantage of this and make themselves a better life, and who will whine and beg.  For those that try to improve their lives, I say more power to them.  They can have the shirt off of my back and I will give them a push up.

Those that whine and beg and scream at "the world", well they can have one of my towels to cry into, cause I am not gonna give them anything else.

Good Grief!  I can't believe I'm reading some of this social darwinist bull dung.  I'm just too flabergasted, dismayed and depressed to even begin to respond. 

Good Grief!  I can't believe I'm reading some of this social darwinist bull dung.  I'm just too flabergasted, dismayed and depressed to even begin to respond. 


Actually, my view is closer to seeing it as "Social Triage".  Let those who can benefit from the aid get it first.  Then what is left-over can go to those who simply want to survive, and not do anything for themselves.

And I am not saying that those who are "lazy" should get nothing.  But they should not get the same aid as those who are trying, but simply having bad luck.

75 years ago, we did not have this monstrosity in place. 

No, we that monstrosity in place.
Poverty, privations, and oppression were horrendous in 1930.  Lyndon Johnson, age 22, was teaching school in south Texas then.  He saw it first hand.  After classes, he spent his afternoons tutoring poor Mexican kids in reading and English.  His parents were dirt farmers out there in the middle of nowhere on the arid plane of central Texas.  He went into politics knowing what poverty was and vowing to do something about it.  
In 1930 there were giant swaths of the population that didn't even count.  Blacks, Latinos, Native Americans, and the "underclasses" from both town and country were left to fend for themselves.  A sliver did pull themselves up by their bootstraps.  Far more remained in systemic poverty.  A lot died early of communicable diseases.  Others fended for themselves in vicious ways.  Above all, most Americans in 1930 were ignorned by their contemporaries, and they're still ignored by history.  The "New Deal" only came into being when it was clear the free market had failed too many people.  The ranks of the desperate swelled to include a huge segment of formerly prosperous whites.  Roosevelt saw capitalism about to split at the seems, so he put in stopgap measures.  His peers among the American aristocracy hated him for it.  They called FDR "a traitor to his class."

One phenomenon that has been terribly destructive since the late '60s is indeed the destruction of the family.  Social liberals gave the nod to easy divorce and bearing children out of wedlock.  The break down of "family" values has hurt everyone, regardless of class.  However, it has hurt poor folks a hell of a lot more.  I agree with the Heritage Foundation on that point....but that's as far as I go.  Conservatives have the right analysis, but they only use it as a cudgel with which to bash the poor.  Their solutions are all bogus.  
And remember, whole families went hungry regardless of ties.  Many whole families were driven apart by death and by split-ups made unavoidable by sheer privation.  Let's not kid ourselves by saying "if people got married and stayed married we wouldn't have all this poverty."

The conservatives on this board aren't listening to a few key points I have made. American business is no longer investing in the American people, and the government is facilitating the betrayal of our citizens by supporting unscrupulous corporations who put profits above humanity.