Well I have just recently found out that thanks to the No Child Left Behind act, special education teachers have to be dual-certified (meaning have to get certificate not only in special education but also in: early childhood, elementary, math, science, or language arts).  Well on the bright side, I just have to pass both certification tests, but think of all the university special education programs that have to change the curriculum for this.  UGH! Our special educators are so under-appreciated!

I don't think they are underappreciated.  I don't agree with everything in NCLB, but what is wrong with having a more qualified teacher? 

I used to teach high school, had to pass the CBEST and get credentialed in general and specific subjects :P  Very stringent, but necessary to make sure I don't teach the kids that monkeys can actually fly out of your butt :D

Yeah somebody can debate about if one subject is important and another one isnt, or if one requirement is important and another one is not.  But nobody gets my sympathy just cause they have to be more qualified to teach kids. 

For my undergraduate degree, all Ed majors also had to take another major. I chose History. For Secondary Ed it makes sense but for Elementary Ed, it was a bit different. The problem is with Elementary Ed, the teacher usually teaches EVERYTHING. By the time I got into the classroom, I did not feel confindent to teach math, science or other subjects. As a student teacher, I was teaching them about the weather. I was basically one step ahead of the students.

However, with NCLB, I don't believe testing is the answer-teachers or students. Here in Vermont, teachers HAVE to continuing their education if they want raises, promotions, etc. Everytime I renew my licence, I have to list the courses, workshops or anything else  I have taken. Since I am not using my licence, I am still at Catagory I. And because of that, I have to renew my licence every 2 years. If I were to use it and get upgraded to Catagory II, I could renew it every 4 years or so.




Cat

Don't get me wrong-I'm not "complaining" about being more qualified (yeah, it would be easier to get a job).  My problem is with changes having to be made to our special education curriculum:  they've already had to cut back some classes, now they might have to cut even more special ed. courses when they make new requirements for that degree.  How could a teacher be more qualified if they've got less schooling in the subject matter?

Boo hoo for them.  They should have had that stuff in there curriculum in the first place.  They thought special ed kids should feel grateful just to get people who were willing to teach them?  They didn't think the students deserved to get teachers who could actually TEACH them something?  Why should they cut back classes?  If you're teaching special ed you have to know MORE.  You have to know how to teach the subjects AND you have to know how to work with special needs kids.  Why are they going to take out stuff just so people don't have to do more work?  That's kinda like saying, gee, we want these students to get Masters degrees, so lets cut down on there BA classes so they can do both with the same amount of work.  Maybe less people will do Special Ed teaching if they don't want to do more work, but maybe they shouldn't be doing special ed.  If its a matter of tuition, then sure give them grants and stuff, but don't tell me people who really want to work with Special Ed kids are going to whine about taking extra classes.  I have to wonder if there really committed or if there the ones who are going to quit after a year anyway cuz its "too hard".

I think NCLB is a crock, just like everything else this vile administration does.  As for special ed teachers, I was in special ed for math from the get go.  All my teachers were frauds.  I pretended to do work, and they pretended to give me a grade.  To this day I can't do basic algebra.  Maybe my brain isn't wired well enough to do it.  I had a tutor in college, he was a great math teacher, and I tried to learn algebra in earnest.  I fought with it until smoke poured out of my ears.  No go.
Then they dumbed down the exam you could take to "test out" of the Tier II math requirement to the point where even I could pass.  So that's how I got through university without having to demonstrate even rudimentary algebraic proficiency. 
I gotta wonder, though, if I had a competent tutor back when my brain was squishier, maybe I would have developed the analytical aptitude. 
Not all "special ed" students are 'tards on the short bus, you know.  A lot of them are pretty bright, but have specific learning difficulties, like I did.  When I was in school, if you had just one learning disability, they tracked you into the dumb row for the whole ball of wax.  Lot of good that did me! 
So I say no more phony baloney special ed teachers...but also no more "one size fits all" testing schemes ala NCLB!

I think NCLB is a crock, just like everything else this vile administration does.  As for special ed teachers, I was in special ed for math from the get go.  All my teachers were frauds.  I pretended to do work, and they pretended to give me a grade.  To this day I can't do basic algebra.  Maybe my brain isn't wired well enough to do it.  I had a tutor in college, he was a great math teacher, and I tried to learn algebra in earnest.  I fought with it until smoke poured out of my ears.  No go.
Then they dumbed down the exam you could take to "test out" of the Tier II math requirement to the point where even I could pass.  So that's how I got through university without having to demonstrate even rudimentary algebraic proficiency. 
I gotta wonder, though, if I had a competent tutor back when my brain was squishier, maybe I would have developed the analytical aptitude. 
Not all "special ed" students are 'tards on the short bus, you know.  A lot of them are pretty bright, but have specific learning difficulties, like I did.  When I was in school, if you had just one learning disability, they tracked you into the dumb row for the whole ball of wax.  Lot of good that did me! 
So I say no more phony baloney special ed teachers...but also no more "one size fits all" testing schemes ala NCLB!



I agree with you. There was this one kid in my 5th grade student teaching class. He had mega-learning disabilities. We did a section on biographies where each student had to give a little presentation on who they read about. He did his on the Wright Bros. and built a model of their aircraft out of legos. My jaw dropped to the floor because it was so percise down to the last detail. I was very impressed. But the kid couldn't take a test if his life depended on it.




Cat

Boo hoo for them.  They should have had that stuff in there curriculum in the first place.  They thought special ed kids should feel grateful just to get people who were willing to teach them?  They didn't think the students deserved to get teachers who could actually TEACH them something?  Why should they cut back classes?  If you're teaching special ed you have to know MORE.  You have to know how to teach the subjects AND you have to know how to work with special needs kids.  Why are they going to take out stuff just so people don't have to do more work?  That's kinda like saying, gee, we want these students to get Masters degrees, so lets cut down on there BA classes so they can do both with the same amount of work.  Maybe less people will do Special Ed teaching if they don't want to do more work, but maybe they shouldn't be doing special ed.  If its a matter of tuition, then sure give them grants and stuff, but don't tell me people who really want to work with Special Ed kids are going to whine about taking extra classes.  I have to wonder if there really committed or if there the ones who are going to quit after a year anyway cuz its "too hard".


Well, it would make more sense to make Special Ed. Masters degree program, but a lot of schools dont wanna do that and just try to cram what they can in the bachelors program without going over 124 credit hours.  Thats what I meant.  Like what MaxwellSmart said, I don't like the "one size fits all" crap.

One thing I like about my kids' school is that they don't have a "special ed" class.  They have special teachers that work with the kids one-on-one (or two-on-one) to give them extra help on that particular subject.  For example, my middle guy was having major trouble with letters/phonics and reading (he has an auditory processing disorder) so instead of being in class with the rest of the kids during their "reading time", where the teacher usually didn't have time to help him and a few others one-on-one, he and 1 other boy went to work with a "reading specialist" twice a week.  Now, he's reading almost at 3rd grade level and he just started 2nd grade.  They also have accelerated programs for math & English where the kids go to a different class (a grade above) for math or English class.  I think it works better that way than having the kids lumped together in "special ed" where they probably wouldn't get the one-on-one attention they need.

A lot of adults thought I was dumb, starting way back in kindergarten.  The truth was I had childhood depression.  They were not diagnosing depression in children in the '70s.  My parents didn't like the public schools so they enrolled us in the local Waldorf School.  The quality of education in Rudolph Steiner "Waldorf" schools varies.  The one I went was lacking in teachers who could teach the three R's to kids who didn't learn at the same pace as the rest of the class.
In 3rd grade it was still "Johnny can't read" for me.  The school had wasn't going to admit the "whole word" method was a crummy way to start kids on reading, so they tried tell my mom it ws just another one of my "special problems."  My mom took a short course in teaching SRA reading labs, got the books, and started tutoring me from home.  My aptitude clicked into place and by fifth grade I was way ahead of my classmates in reading, spelling, and vocabulary.

There is a movement to push schools to "mainstream" special ed kids from the "resource room" to the regular classroom.  I don't like this movement because the motivation behind it is (of course) slashing budgets.  "Mainstreaming" must be done on a case-by-case basis.  Some kids with learning disabilities also have severe behavioral problems.  I didn't disrupt class because I wasn't a disruptive kid.  Well, I was disruptive in elementary school, but not after fifth grade.  Some kids with ADD, ADHD, or whatever, can't sit still, can't shut up, and raise hell.  This has a detrimental effect on the education of the other students.  Schools should not have to make decisions based on stingy budgets.

As a mother of a special needs child I will add that getting a qualified teacher is one of the toughest battles
I have, and it is the one that makes the most difference.  Certificates, or one or two classes don't do it and
I, thankfully, live in Massachusetts where there are laws that have to be followed.  Of course, even then it takes an advocate and/or lawyer to see that you are getting the services your child needs. Under qualified teachers do more harm than good, and you can usually pick them out within minutes of being in a classroom. 

However, many parents don't care if their children are detrimental to others learning (and yes, there ARE some at their school), they just don't want their child "labeled".   

I think parents do care what their children do, but if you look at the modern American family, not as many mothers are able to stay home and be a role model to their children in the traditional sense like you are able to do.  As a result, although they want to do as the teachers/counselors suggest, they neither have the time nor the energy to accomplish it.  I recall, as a teacher, sitting in several parent/teacher conferences, and one in particular stands out in my mind.  There was a kid who was not doing so well in my class because he either had ADD, didn't care, or both.  What I told his parents was that he needed to spend less time playing video games and goofing off in class, and also seek my help if he needed it (he certainly did).  I was available throughout the day during break periods and before/after school, and even went into the resource periods (which I wasn't paid for) to help certain kids with their science and math homework.  I think teachers do have plenty of time to do this (even though I still think they are underappreciated and underpaid) but without the parents to back them up, there is no accomplishment.  The kid that I was talking about never did do as I suggested, and in fact bragged about all the video game systems he had been playing as well as board games, role playing games etc.  This suggested to me that the parents were allowing the video games to babysit their son, and not taking the teacher's advice to heart, or perhaps were unable to because of a number of reasons.  

I guess the point I am trying to make is that NCLB has its problems, but I believe that despite its problems, it is a step in the right direction only if parents can alleviate some of the pressure on the teachers.  I also believe that a lot of the kids in "resource" (that's what the special supplemental aid program at our school was called) were taking advantage of their conditions to do less work.  This is not to say that kids didn't come to me for aid, or work hard...in fact, I remember fondly several kids who would come into class early for extra tutoring, and generally showed a fine work ethic.  But there were certainly kids who tried to take advantage of their resource privileges to goad their tutors into revealing test answers, or to force the use of a calculator when their classmates could not because their special needs form required it.  Funny thing is, these are the same kids who fail because they don't listen in class, they don't go to resource, and they will believe that 2 + 2 = 7 because their calculator says so.  

By the way, the kid who whined about the calculator got the lowest score.

We definately expect too much from 'regular' teachers in terms of working with different kinds of special needs(whether its a disability or laziness or just a discipline problem) and generally in terms of picking up where irresponsable parents leave off.  I don't know what the best solution is.  Some people should not be allowed to be parents, but that's another story.

One thing I like about my kids' school is that they don't have a "special ed" class.  They have special teachers that work with the kids one-on-one (or two-on-one) to give them extra help on that particular subject.  For example, my middle guy was having major trouble with letters/phonics and reading (he has an auditory processing disorder) so instead of being in class with the rest of the kids during their "reading time", where the teacher usually didn't have time to help him and a few others one-on-one, he and 1 other boy went to work with a "reading specialist" twice a week.  Now, he's reading almost at 3rd grade level and he just started 2nd grade.  They also have accelerated programs for math & English where the kids go to a different class (a grade above) for math or English class.  I think it works better that way than having the kids lumped together in "special ed" where they probably wouldn't get the one-on-one attention they need.


I hear about some school that tried to dodge the NCLB requirements by cutting the entire "special ed" program and put all the students in the general classroom and the special ed teachers just became "teacher assistants."  Fortunately, that didn't last long.  Yes its good for special needs children to be in the general classroom to the maximum extent appropriate (in fact, its the law)  But what about those with severe/profound disabilities who require a lot more than just a teacher assistant in the general classroom?

I hear about some school that tried to dodge the NCLB requirements by cutting the entire "special ed" program and put all the students in the general classroom and the special ed teachers just became "teacher assistants."  Fortunately, that didn't last long.  Yes its good for special needs children to be in the general classroom to the maximum extent appropriate (in fact, its the law)  But what about those with severe/profound disabilities who require a lot more than just a teacher assistant in the general classroom?



They almost instituted that in our school system, luckily there are enough activist parents to stop that, it would have been devasting educationally to most of the special needs kids, and a serious distraction to the rest.  Currently Jake goes into the special needs classroom for most of his classes, but goes into a regular classroom with an aide for math and art.  It works well.  In order to get this right though tends to be a struggle, I am lucky that I can afford a professional advocate/lawyer.  Those who can't are at the mercy of the school system, and they do not always do what it right.

 I was available throughout the day during break periods and before/after school, and even went into the resource periods (which I wasn't paid for) to help certain kids with their science and math homework.  I think teachers do have plenty of time to do this (even though I still think they are underappreciated and underpaid) but without the parents to back them up, there is no accomplishment.  The kid that I was talking about never did do as I suggested, and in fact bragged about all the video game systems he had been playing as well as board games, role playing games etc.  This suggested to me that the parents were allowing the video games to babysit their son, and not taking the teacher's advice to heart, or perhaps were unable to because of a number of reasons.  



It seems to me the latest Wall Street prognosticators are video games are more important than math.  All that math stuff is gonna get outsourced to India, but if you can create a great video system you're in the money!

I'm only half sacrastic here, and rolling my eyes.  I have heard a couple of different visionaries from the business press talk of these matters on C-Span and NPR.  I remember the same type of azzhole coming to my school in about 1983 and saying, "I have the three most important words to your futures: Math, Math, Math."  It looked like the whole country was going to be wrapped up in computer programming, engineering, financial analysis, and accounting.  All that Mickey Mouse creative write, theater, and arts was for kids who didn't want a "future." 
This was true for about fifteen years.  Now creative writing, theater, and arts are exactly what you need to make a splash in business!
Now we're being told, "Don't get any job that involves a routine.  It's gonna get outsourced to the Third World in the next five years."  And all college freshmen should become "designers."  Designing what?  Designing anything.  And there'll be a lot of openings for corporate storytellers. 
I'd like to line up all business journalists and throw blueberry pies in their faces!  I'm soooo sick of them, they are shameless.

Anyway, I always like to hear there are teachers like you, Rice Cube, who will volunteer their time to help out students in need...even if the student can't or won't seize the opportunity. 
Unfortunately, we are seeing, in some cases, a second generation of kids who don't value education.  In other words, their parents didn't think school was worth a d*mn either.  It's not just kids from poor families.  I see this attitude among people who are out there making six figures annually.  They found their niche and made it pay off.  Therefore, they don't see any use in reading Shakespeare, dissecting a frog, or learning  about the industrial revolution.  Ignorance is bliss.

Anyway, I always like to hear there are teachers like you, Rice Cube, who will volunteer their time to help out students in need...even if the student can't or won't seize the opportunity. 
Unfortunately, we are seeing, in some cases, a second generation of kids who don't value education.  In other words, their parents didn't think school was worth a d*mn either.  It's not just kids from poor families.  I see this attitude among people who are out there making six figures annually.  They found their niche and made it pay off.  Therefore, they don't see any use in reading Shakespeare, dissecting a frog, or learning  about the industrial revolution.  Ignorance is bliss.


Too true, I've worked with kids who do not have any inclination to hear about anything that isn't going to
make them a buck.  Being a bit of a history buff, and being old enough to be looked on as a bit of
ancient history myself, it is painful when I start talking about things I remember about civil rights and
having African American kids say that that was a long time ago and has nothing to do with them, or talking to females who thing the feminist movement has nothing to do with them.  Even things like the Civil War, or(being in New England) New England authors, or the Kennedy assasination(you mean there was a president from Massachusetts? and he was shot? really!) ARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!

, or learning  about the industrial revolution.  Ignorance is bliss.


One of my favorite haunts is the Lowell Mill tour, if you haven't done it I would suggest it to everyone who wants the real story of America, not the disney, Horatio Adler, patently false, version

Anyway, I always like to hear there are teachers like you, Rice Cube, who will volunteer their time to help out students in need...even if the student can't or won't seize the opportunity. 
Unfortunately, we are seeing, in some cases, a second generation of kids who don't value education.  In other words, their parents didn't think school was worth a d*mn either.  It's not just kids from poor families.  I see this attitude among people who are out there making six figures annually.  They found their niche and made it pay off.  Therefore, they don't see any use in reading Shakespeare, dissecting a frog, or learning  about the industrial revolution.  Ignorance is bliss.


I am not a teacher anymore because of what you mentioned.  Kids just do not have the same drive for learning that I did.  I am making a return to graduate school soon though, as I believe that I can better serve the kids who do go to college and want to learn something to specialize in a field that will benefit society. 

I taught in a very affluent neighborhood.  The kids were spoiled rotten and believed in appeasement and kickbacks and spoonfeeding.  I did not.  The school was stacked with resources and had an insane amount of funding, and yet the children did not seem to want to take advantage of it.  There's one thing with giving schools the assets and resources they deserve through government grants, and there's another when nobody bothers to take advantage of these grants.  Outside assistance is always nice, but a little bit of initiative and personal responsibility goes a long way.

I am not a teacher anymore because of what you mentioned.  Kids just do not have the same drive for learning that I did.  I am making a return to graduate school soon though, as I believe that I can better serve the kids who do go to college and want to learn something to specialize in a field that will benefit society. 

I taught in a very affluent neighborhood.  The kids were spoiled rotten and believed in appeasement and kickbacks and spoonfeeding.  I did not.  The school was stacked with resources and had an insane amount of funding, and yet the children did not seem to want to take advantage of it.  There's one thing with giving schools the assets and resources they deserve through government grants, and there's another when nobody bothers to take advantage of these grants.  Outside assistance is always nice, but a little bit of initiative and personal responsibility goes a long way.

Money talks.  If you've got enough dough, you can always get into college.  That's why the Right is so hateful of affirmative action programs.  They resent the breach of the financial barrier.  They don't want to admit it scares them that their dumb kids might have to compete with people of color based on merit.

Therefore, they don't see any use in reading Shakespeare, dissecting a frog, or learning  about the industrial revolution.  Ignorance is bliss.


Well, I can confirm that...I don't see any point in learning any of the above things.  Shakespeare, a good read perhaps, if you're into that sort of thing, but not necessary for a good life.  And chances are fairly good that I will never have to perform heart surgery on a frog.  Industrial Revolution...somewhat important, but there's other parts of history that I feel are more important to learn.

But truly, the reason I don't see any use in school is because it's so messed up.  The discussion so far was about special ed kids, but the same is true for those on the opposite end of the spectrum, myself included.  At my school, most of the classes are so dumbed down that it's impossible to learn anything.  And although I have a GIEP (Gifted Individual Education Program...I don't know if they do this outside of PA or not), nobody cares enough to keep it updated and helping me.  I'm not even sure I want to go to college anymore, I've lost so much faith in the schooling system.

Well, I can confirm that...I don't see any point in learning any of the above things.  Shakespeare, a good read perhaps, if you're into that sort of thing, but not necessary for a good life.
That sort of thing, whatchoo mean, that sort of thing?
Maybe...love, war, family, death, sex,  irony, growing up, growing old, loyalty, betrayal, politics, mental illness, marriage, infidelity, sunshine, rainfall, the beauty of nature, the fear of the unknown, geography, history....
I mean, do you think any of these things might apply to you and your life?  Shakespeare just might have something to say to you about these subjects....but then again, you've got Snoop Dogg and Grand Theft Auto, so what else do ya need?
::)

That sort of thing, whatchoo mean, that sort of thing?
Maybe...love, war, family, death, sex,  irony, growing up, growing old, loyalty, betrayal, politics, mental illness, marriage, infidelity, sunshine, rainfall, the beauty of nature, the fear of the unknown, geography, history....
I mean, do you think any of these things might apply to you and your life?  Shakespeare just might have something to say to you about these subjects....but then again, you've got Snoop Dogg and Grand Theft Auto, so what else do ya need?
::)


First of all, if you asked me to pick Snoop Dogg out of a crowd of people, I wouldn't be able to do it.  Same thing would be true if you asked me to translate that gibberish he mumbles.  And I'm most certainly not a gamer in any way.

And as for love, war, family, etc....you could get the same thing from almost any book/play.  Yeah, literature's a form of art, speaking to our emotions and everything, but that's not why they teach it in school.  In school (at least in Shippensburg), you don't read to learn...you read to analyze the work word by word, answer the test questions, and get an A (hopefully), so the school district looks good.  You can't grade life lessons.

First of all, if you asked me to pick Snoop Dogg out of a crowd of people, I wouldn't be able to do it.  Same thing would be true if you asked me to translate that gibberish he mumbles.  And I'm most certainly not a gamer in any way.

And as for love, war, family, etc....you could get the same thing from almost any book/play.  Yeah, literature's a form of art, speaking to our emotions and everything, but that's not why they teach it in school.  In school (at least in Shippensburg), you don't read to learn...you read to analyze the work word by word, answer the test questions, and get an A (hopefully), so the school district looks good.  You can't grade life lessons.

Nobody thinks rote memorization is a useful mode of education anymore.  The cynics who brought us NCLB are trying to sell us on education reform without reforming education.  The capitalists don't want to invest in the American worker, so why would they want to invest in the American student?  We have a government whose answer to every human need boils down to seven letters:  **** you!

Nobody thinks rote memorization is a useful mode of education anymore.  The cynics who brought us NCLB are trying to sell us on education reform without reforming education.  The capitalists don't want to invest in the American worker, so why would they want to invest in the American student?  We have a government whose answer to every human need boils down to seven letters:  **** you!


Actually rote memorization, not concept knowledge, is on the minds of those who love NCLB. Test them and if they don't memorize the facts, screw them.

Actually rote memorization, not concept knowledge, is on the minds of those who love NCLB. Test them and if they don't memorize the facts, screw them.

Exactly.  You'll always need some rote in education, but rote facts don't teach reasoning, context, or nuance.  If resource-strapped schools end up devoting their all to teaching the NCLB test requirements, that's not education reform.

Rote memorization of rudimentary knowledge should be mandatory.  I've taught classes where the bulk of the students don't understand that you can't get a bigger number after you SUBTRACT something and that Abraham Lincoln was the 16th President and not just a big stone face in the side of a mountain :P  Some things you just have to know.

I agree that conceptual learning is the best way to learn, because what a lot of kids do in all levels of education is they memorize and regurgitate and forget.  Concepts are rarely forgotten.  If they rig the tests so that there is more emphasis on conceptual aptitude, that would be great, but that would create biases in the test construction and the grading that nobody wants to get into. 

Kids DO have to memorize some things though, like the definitions for commonly used words and certain mathematical concepts and theora.  These things are the foundation to knowledge...without them, concepts cannot be formed.  Maybe we can find a happy medium, but I don't know what that medium is.

There are complaints among many teachers that NCLB straitjackets them into dispensing with a more liberal, freeflowing curriculum into a concrete pedagogy built on gearing kids towards passing a standardized test.  I don't know how many of you have taken a standardized test, but the only measure of "aptitude" these things measure is your ability to take that particular standardized test.  You're right...it's not a true method of gauging intelligence, but it is standardized.  What I would like to see is a methodology where the teacher can keep his/her mentoring freedoms while still getting the kids ready for the tests.  I know it is possible, because while I was a teacher, I was able to hammer concepts into the kids' heads in a fun and meaningful way (despite the fact that science is intrinsically boring when you're writing numbers and symbols on the board and not blowing sheesh up) within the boundaries of the state standards. 

State and federal standards are set up as goals for the kids to achieve.  After all, without some goals in life, what point is there to live it?  BUT, the way I see it, the standards are only minimal...the teacher has the right and the option of challenging the students beyond these standards, and persuade them to achieve loftier goals.  Sure, the students bitched at me when I did this, but in the end, I know at least 10 of them appreciated it.

My belief is that while it will be difficult to implement NCLB in its current form, a modified policy could be established to challenge students to reach their potential and satisfy the standards.  Teachers and students who say "We can't do this" are not necessarily making excuses, because the current policy appears to be extremely burdensome, but they are cheating themselves out of a solid educational opportunity...to challenge themselves towards self-improvement.  That is what education is about, isn't it?