I have to wonder why we are so cautious to the max in dealing with hate groups such as the KKK and terrorists such as Al-Qaida....Yes I know about the First Amendment and the right to SAY anything one wants to say...but many of these types ACT on it. I think we need to adopt a ZERO TOLERANCE policy with hate groups and terrorist factions...especially when their members continue stuff such as lynchings, beatings, and bombings...or else we WILL have another Michael Sheppard type hate crime...or worse another Oklahoma City or September 11, 2001 type incident!

I have to wonder why we are so cautious to the max in dealing with hate groups such as the KKK and terrorists such as Al-Qaida....Yes I know about the First Amendment and the right to SAY anything one wants to say...but many of these types ACT on it. I think we need to adopt a ZERO TOLERANCE policy with hate groups and terrorist factions...especially when their members continue stuff such as lynchings, beatings, and bombings...or else we WILL have another Michael Sheppard type hate crime...or worse another Oklahoma City or September 11, 2001 type incident!


I sypathise with your frustration but you must remember that there is a fine line between free speach an advocacy of violance.  I hate both the KKK and Al Quida, but I love my freedom of speech much more, and if mine depends on theirs, which it does (if nothing else the freedom of speech has to be the freedom to say that which is unpopular) then I must say, let those bastards spew their filth, and trust in our fellw citizens to see it as such.

What case are you talking about?
Matthew Sheppard the gay guy who was killed by white supremacist thugs after meeting them in a bar....the Oklahoma City bombing by Timothy McVeigh,who was a 'patriot separatist' with neo-Nazi leanings....and Al-Qaida who committed the September 11th 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon!

I sypathise with your frustration but you must remember that there is a fine line between free speach an advocacy of violance. I hate both the KKK and Al Quida, but I love my freedom of speech much more, and if mine depends on theirs, which it does (if nothing else the freedom of speech has to be the freedom to say that which is unpopular) then I must say, let those bastards spew their filth, and trust in our fellw citizens to see it as such.
Yes I agree to what you say...but try telling that to a grieving family who's lost a son,daughter,wife,husband,or parent to a hate crime or terrorist attack...especially to a child who loses both parents and now must either live with a relative(if they're lucky) or be entrusted to the 'tender loving care'(sarcasm meant) of a foster home...

What is a "hate group"?
We can all agree (I hope) that Al Qaeda, the KKK, and the American Nazi Party are "hate groups."

On the hand, one person's "hate group" is another person's "solidarity." 

To white Americans the CRIPS and the Bloods seem like hate groups.  Young men who join those gangs see them as a means of socio-economic survivial. 
Most of us in the West call political outfits such as Hamas and "Hezbollah as "hateful."  Their members, however, feel just as passionately these groups are fighting for survival, justice, and dignity.

The murder of the Weaver family at Ruby Ridge and the bombing of the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City brought "white sepratist" and "militia" into the national vocabulary.  The conflagaration that killed the Branch Davidians at Waco become affiliated with this same consciousness because it was a separated group with a cause who got killed by government action.  The Branch Davidians were an armageddonist cult, but not racist by mission.*  However, Ruby Ridge, Waco, and Oklahoma City formed a triad of events around which racist "Christian Identity Movement" groups, "white separatists," and anti-government militias built consensus.  I have seen a great reluctance among conservatives and Christian fundamentalists to call militias or far-right "Christian' communities "hate" groups.  Make no mistake---replace Christianity with Islam, or white with black, at Ruby Ridge, Waco, or Oklahoma City and you would have heard a far different tune over the past decade.

Who "hates" whom?  As much as cops hate Mumia Abu Jamal, it is Mumia's contention the Philadelphia police were acting as a "hate group" when they were trying to kill his brother.**

What does it mean to "hate."  I could point to the Heritiage Foundation and call them a "hate group."  I have concluded the REAL goals of the American Right to be so inimical to social justice and human decency as to render them "hateful."

I try not to "hate" anybody because I know it's bad for me and bad for the world.  I don't always succeed.


So---it is a complex question, a philosophical question, as to what hate really is, and what it means to hate, and thus what a "hate group" is.  If the United States government says an organization is a "hate group" (or "terrorist organization") are we obliged in a free society to go along with the government's designation?

"What is terrorism, and who is a terrorist?" is an equally complicated discussion.

I know we would all prefer to have political designations be uncomplicated.  However, if we make the complex simple for the sake of political expediency and psychological satisfaction, we will end up right back in a state of fear and confusion all the same.

As for "walking on eggshells," I don't see it when it comes to the Bush Administration.  They're about as subtle as a prison rodeo.  The government's problem is more one of ineptitude and mendacity.
::)

*I have heard right-wingers, such as G. Gordon Liddy, cally the Branch Davidians "Christian Fundamentalists."  However, they were an abomination to any Christian person of faith.  Just like the The People's Temple cult in the 1970s, the Davidians were no longer worshipping Christ, they were worshipping the cult leader as Christ.  Jim Jones in the case of People's Temple in Guyana, and David Koresh, in the case of the BD in Texas.

**William Cook, Mumia's brother, did confess to assaulting Officer Faulkner.  The larger point here was that the Philadelphia police had become the army of occupation.  The cops came around to poor neighborhoods every day and beat holy hell out people. 

Thanks, Max, for taking the time to post that.

Thanks, Max, for taking the time to post that.

That post didn't hang together too well, but I'm glad it made some sense to you.

That post didn't hang together too well, but I'm glad it made some sense to you.


I see what you are saying, so it can't be that hard to understand.

Who "hates" whom?  As much as cops hate Mumia Abu Jamal, it is Mumia's contention the Philadelphia police were acting as a "hate group" when they were trying to kill his brother.**


**William Cook, Mumia's brother, did confess to assaulting Officer Faulkner.  The larger point here was that the Philadelphia police had become the army of occupation.  The cops came around to poor neighborhoods every day and beat holy hell out people. 


We also hear the same things from Assata Shakur.  And you will always have people who will support people of questionable (if downright evil) character, no matter what else is proven or said.  They will do it simply because they think it supports their world view.

I agree with a lot of what you said there.  I knew that David Koresh was not to be trusted the first time he made a promise to surrender after being allowed to read a manifesto, then failing to do so.  If anything, I blame the government for not moving in fast enough!  By dragging it out so long, it allowed it to become a huge international event, instead of what it really was: trying to arrest a religous nutcase with a God complex.

But the point is that hate, in and of itself, is not a crime.  In fact, when I was younger, I considered myself an "equal opportunity hater" I hated everybody.  Then I gave up hatred for lent, and never went back.  Some deads are illigal, emotions are not.  Klaners would call me a spic, do I care?  Let the a33holes rant, at least 3 feet from my face.

That's why I disagree with hate crimes -- if people commit a crime, they should be punished.  I don't agree with judging if its worse to kill somebody because you hate them for being gay than if you hate them for being rich, or because you don't hate them at all, but you were just bored.

We also hear the same things from Assata Shakur.  And you will always have people who will support people of questionable (if downright evil) character, no matter what else is proven or said.  They will do it simply because they think it supports their world view.

I agree with a lot of what you said there.  I knew that David Koresh was not to be trusted the first time he made a promise to surrender after being allowed to read a manifesto, then failing to do so.  If anything, I blame the government for not moving in fast enough!  By dragging it out so long, it allowed it to become a huge international event, instead of what it really was: trying to arrest a religous nutcase with a God complex.

I don't think Mumia or his brother were "evil," nor was the cop.  The overarching problem of systemic racism and poverty was evil.  Inner city areas such as south Philly got turned into battle grounds.  I see it more like a kill-or-be-killed situation.  I don't expect you to agree with me on this matter, though.

The government's stupid tactics at Waco have been discussed time and time again since the tragedy.  They needed to lay low and arrest Koresh off the grounds of the compound.  The Branch Davidians were a massacre waiting to happen, like Jim Jones' People's Temple.  David Koresh was an armageddonist.  He probably pulled wood when the government surrounded the compound with tanks and munitions, like "Oh boy, just what I was waiting for!"  Regardless of who fired the first shot or who started the fire, Koresh wasn't going to be taken alive with the whole world watching, and he was going to make sure the death toll was as high as possible.
If they cuffed Koresh when he went to town for a pack of smokes, they would have taken out the cult's linchpin and been in a position to diffuse the situation.