WHAT IF EVERYONE WAS BLIND THEN NO-ONE WOULD KNOW WHO TO HATE bumper sticker I saw the other day, psst, pass it on  ;) I like the egg joke too  :) growing up in the North in intergrated schools, couldn't imagine segregated proms, but know some 'African Americans' from the South who did't like de-segregation of their schools, so guess what it said in that article was true, they like it the way it is....but I don't get it 8)

Once again Maxwell, are you speaking from real-life experience?  Have you ever lived in South-Central?  Well, I have.

I have also lived in Compton, Inglewood, and Watts.

And do you want to know where some of the worst slums are?  Try Hollywood and Beverly Hills.  Also try Pacoima (I have lived there also).

And yes, LA had it's racial issues, just like every other area of the country.  But it was nothing like what happened in Alabama and Mississippi in the 1950's and 1960's.  Governor Pat Brown was nothing like Governor George Wallace (even though both were Democrats).

I found this interesting bit on the LAUSD web site:

Roosevelt High School, the second largest high school in the United States, is now nearly 99% Latino. In the years before the formal end to segregation it had a much more diverse student body. For example in 1930s, the school had a Japanese American male student body president, and an African American female vice-president.

By the early 1970's, LA even had a bussing system in place to integrate the junior high and high schools.  This was done because of the self-segregation of LA.  We had blacks in my area, but nowhere near as many in areas like South-Central.  And yes, they did bus white students to South-Central!  It worked (and still works) both ways.

Many areas of South-Central are very "family oriented".  When I worked at Boeing, one of my co-workers still lived in Inglewood.  It was an area that had fallen on hard times, and he could afford to leave.  But the house was the one his grandfater had bought after WWII, and he just could not leave it.  2 of his aunts lived within walking distance, and his son lived a block away.

I remember a study that was done in the 1990's, that showed that South-Central had one of the highest percentages of privately owned homes!  Most of the people who live there actually own their homes.  And many have lived there for generations.  Their grandfathers (or great grandfathers) may have been "forced" to live there, but that is their home.  And yes, there are people of all ethnicities who live there.


How would you honestly know what L.A.'s attitudes were like if you most likely never experienced it? My in-laws and their families are from and still reside in Compton. Overt racism is easier to deal with than implied racism b/c there aren't any watch dogs. Yes, I cannot equate it to Alabama from the stories I've heard from family and elders; however, L.A. had (and still has) serious racial issues that went under the radar b/c it wasn't in the south. I hear the stories from my hubby's family and it's horrendous.

How would you honestly know what L.A.'s attitudes were like if you most likely never experienced it? My in-laws and their families are from and still reside in Compton. Overt racism is easier to deal with than implied racism b/c there aren't any watch dogs. Yes, I cannot equate it to Alabama from the stories I've heard from family and elders; however, L.A. had (and still has) serious racial issues that went under the radar b/c it wasn't in the south. I hear the stories from my hubby's family and it's horrendous.

Mushroom was saying he lived in Compton, so he certainly knows South Central better than I, as I have never even visited there.  However, I think the point is, many people can witness the same thing and come away with as many different perspectives.  You know, it's like Kurosawa's classic film "Roshomon," -- in ancient Japan, a woman is raped and her husband killed. The film gives us four viewpoints of the incident - one for each defendant - each revealing a little more detail. Which version, if any, is the real truth about what happened?
All can see some things, but no one can see all things.

A few semi-related thoughts:

1. Some people can't get their heads out of the past.  The NAACP seems to only exist now-a-days only to complain about the Mississippi state flag or the painting of Robert E. Lee in the Georgia governor's mansion.  There are some issues why the NAACP should still exist, but they haven't really move on.  It's like the anti-polio groups still existing.

2. Seriously it's time for section 5 of the voter rights act to die.  It's not 1965 anymore, and Massachusetts should not be treated better or worse than South Carolina.

3. Racism is not as widespread as some want to make it.  Sure, anybody can pull up a few newspaper articles, but that doesn't mean anything.

How would you honestly know what L.A.'s attitudes were like if you most likely never experienced it?


Uhh, maybe because I was born in LA, and live there for most of my life?

I was born in LA in 1964, and lived there until 1975.  I returned there in 1982 and lived there until 1987.  From 1990-1992 I lived in San Francisco, and visited my family in LA at least once a month.  When I came back in 1993 I lived there until 2003, when I was lucky enough to "Escape From LA".  I now live in Alabama, where I am happy for the first time in years.  All the stresses of "big city living" are now gone.

Believe me, I have lived all over LA.  Encino, Reseda, Torance, Long Beach, Seal Beach, Hollywood, Compton, Watts, Inglewood, Van Nuys, Pacoima, North Hollywood, Canoga Park, Lancaster, Palmdale, Quartz Hill, Seal Beach, Westminster, Bell, Anaheim, at one time I have either lived in, or spent a long time in each of those areas.

And here is a secret: there is racism everywhere.  And here is another secret: people of all races can be racist.

Here in Alabama, the White Racists are more obvious.  But for the most part, they are on the run.  And I have never been shy of telling one just what I think of them.  There is a business just down the street I used to go to.  I stopped, and will never return because I recently heard him talking about New Orlenas, and how "all them Nerfhearders got what they deserved" (he used another word, but you get the idea).  So now I shop someplace else.

In LA, I think that a large percentage of racists are/have belonged to gangs.  The gangs in LA are very racially driven, and I am sure that a lot of them that were members 20-30 years ago are still carrying the baggage from those days still today.  Overt racism is not tolerated in that city, and it is quickly acted upon.

Another segment tends to be the immigrant community.  LA has one of the largest (if not THE largest) immigrant population in the country.  And to a lot of immigrants, their only exposure to blacks before they moved here was in movies.  My ex moved to LA from Argentina when she was 16.  She had never seen a black person in her life before she came here.  And with the large Asian communities, there is always tension there.  In fact, some of the worst rioting in 1992 came from black gangs going into Asian districts.  And there is a lot of tension in the Hispanic districts as well.

In fact, "Whites" are a minority in LA, and have been for close to 10 years now.  My oldest son is "Hispanic", because of his mother.  In fact, she also "Hispanic", even though she is more "White" then I am.  LA is a big mixing pot of races and ethnicities.  For the most part, nobody really cares what race you are or where you come from.  But there is always going to be racism, because there will always be stupid people that can't get over outward appearance and preconcieved notions of how people "should" behave.

Let me help you here.

1. Yes, you may have experienced it indirectly because of others you know. But, you may have never experienced it directly.


Try being a white person in Compton or Inglewood.  Or better yet, try being an American in Panama or Japan.  Yes, I do know what Racism is, and I have experienced it first-hand.  Just because a person is white, that does not mean he/she has not come under attack because of their race.

And as for Argentina, there are very few blacks there.  There are also very few Indians, other then those in the highlands or Pampas plains.  Buenos Aires is a "White Meca" in South America.  Is it any wonder that so many former Nazi's relocated there?  My ex was actually rather racist in her own way (I never realized it until after we were married).  She was rather proud that all of her family came from "Italy, France, or Spain".  Myself, I am proud of my Heinz-57 ancestery.  She would never discriminate or say anything in public, but she never understood that Indians, Blacks, or Mexicans were people just like she was.

And as you should know, there is racism all over LA.  Be white and go to "M&M Soul Food" place on Manchester in Inglewood.  Or go to Rico's in Pacoima.  There have been times in both places where I have stood for 10 minutes before somebody would bother to take my order.

Or in Panama, where even in 1987, Americans were not welcome (and were attacked on the street, I whould know because I was attacked there just because I was an "Anglo").  Or Japan, where they are so Xenophobic, even a "Japanese-American" is looked at as a foreigner, and not welcome because he is "American".

There is discrimination and racism in this cournty.  And I admit that there always will be.  Some people just can't see past the obvious, and look inside of people.  But unlike some areas of the world (former Yugoslavia, Ireland, India, etc) it no longer results in open warfare in this country.  I just hope that someday it dissapears.  But as long as some people break the world into "Us" and "Them", it will always be here.

A few semi-related thoughts:

1. Some people can't get their heads out of the past.  The NAACP seems to only exist now-a-days only to complain about the Mississippi state flag or the painting of Robert E. Lee in the Georgia governor's mansion.  There are some issues why the NAACP should still exist, but they haven't really move on.  It's like the anti-polio groups still existing.

2. Seriously it's time for section 5 of the voter rights act to die.  It's not 1965 anymore, and Massachusetts should not be treated better or worse than South Carolina.

3. Racism is not as widespread as some want to make it.  Sure, anybody can pull up a few newspaper articles, but that doesn't mean anything.

Today racism falls under the heading of classism.  Classism is the proverbial 400-pound gorilla in the phone booth Americans are trying so hard not to see!  Basically, all races and ethnic groups are great as long as they live and act like White Republicans.

If someone reports that they've experienced racism, or feels they have, why do we so often feel compelled to:

1. take it personally
2. assume they're making it up
3. assume that our interpretation of events is more accurate than their actual experience
4. accuse them of "victimhood"
5. make the patronizing assumption that they're "letting their mindset hold them back in life"
6. attempt to discount their experience by going on at length about the racism we've encountered

Is any of this really productive?

Racism is no less real than it was forty years ago, it is now superceded by classism.  It's the whole "Cosby" phenomenon at play since the '80s.

If somebody discriminates against me for some reason, I simply shrug and go on with my life.  And if it is a business, I take my business elsewhere.

To me, life is to short and precious to spend my life hating others.  And I refuse to give into it in any way.  If they think differently of me (or somebody else) because of something so petty, then I know that I am the superior to that person, because their mind is closed.

A closed mind gathers no knowledge.

So if someone behaves in an offensive manner, you just ignore it and walk away, but if someone dares express irritation about having received such treatment, you chastize them for raising the issue?  :-\\

So if someone behaves in an offensive manner, you just ignore it and walk away, but if someone dares express irritation about having received such treatment, you chastize them for raising the issue?   :-\\


Quite often, yes.

At where I work, everybody knows not to use "The N Word" around me.  I do not like it, and do not want to hear it.  Quite often, the reaction is one of shock, then shame.

One guy here just did not get it when I asked him repeatedly to not say it around me.  Finally, I started to ignore him.  And I mean ignore.  Normally for a period of at least 30-45 minutes, I would pretend he is not there.  He could talk directly to me, and I just ignore it.  If he is talking to our boss, I will talk over him, and not respond to anything he says.  Finally, he got the idea.  He still slips from time to time, but nowhere near as much as he did a year ago.

And yes, I have also asked Blacks to not say it around me.  The reaction I get then is often funny.  But hopefully it also makes them think a bit too.  My objection to the word even prevents me from listening to most of Richard Pryor's work, or that of Eddie Murphy during his "Raw" period.

And as for Argentina, there are very few blacks there.  There are also very few Indians, other then those in the highlands or Pampas plains.  Buenos Aires is a "White Meca" in South America.  Is it any wonder that so many former Nazi's relocated there? 

just out of curiosity, is your ex related to the Nazi emigres???

But as long as some people break the world into "Us" and "Them", it will always be here.


so the ubiquitous nature of racism makes it tolerable?

^While I applaud you for trying to overcome such behavior, I must say that it is quite easy for you to ignore such discriminatory behavior. As an African-American and a woman, I face such behavior every day. Can I easily ignore it and walk away? No, because I belong to two groups that have fought long and hard for their equal rights. For me to deny my right to not be treated unfairly is a slap in their faces. So, I don't and I voice how I feel.

Try being a white person in Compton or Inglewood.  Or better yet, try being an American in Panama or Japan.  Yes, I do know what Racism is, and I have experienced it first-hand.  Just because a person is white, that does not mean he/she has not come under attack because of their race.

And as for Argentina, there are very few blacks there.  There are also very few Indians, other then those in the highlands or Pampas plains.  Buenos Aires is a "White Meca" in South America.  Is it any wonder that so many former Nazi's relocated there?  My ex was actually rather racist in her own way (I never realized it until after we were married).  She was rather proud that all of her family came from "Italy, France, or Spain".  Myself, I am proud of my Heinz-57 ancestery.  She would never discriminate or say anything in public, but she never understood that Indians, Blacks, or Mexicans were people just like she was.

And as you should know, there is racism all over LA.  Be white and go to "M&M Soul Food" place on Manchester in Inglewood.  Or go to Rico's in Pacoima.  There have been times in both places where I have stood for 10 minutes before somebody would bother to take my order.

Or in Panama, where even in 1987, Americans were not welcome (and were attacked on the street, I whould know because I was attacked there just because I was an "Anglo").  Or Japan, where they are so Xenophobic, even a "Japanese-American" is looked at as a foreigner, and not welcome because he is "American".

There is discrimination and racism in this cournty.  And I admit that there always will be.  Some people just can't see past the obvious, and look inside of people.  But unlike some areas of the world (former Yugoslavia, Ireland, India, etc) it no longer results in open warfare in this country.  I just hope that someday it dissapears.  But as long as some people break the world into "Us" and "Them", it will always be here.


1. That's not racism, but more of prejudicial views. What you've encountered is suspicion based on past experiences or stereotypes. It's not unknown to many ethnic neighborhoods (of color, to differentiate) for its residents to be weary of whites venturing in. Past experiences like whites only coming in to buy drugs or prostitutes or to stir up trouble (Toledo is a perfect example) have made many anxious (I'm not excusing the behavior, but I'm citing examples). I've summed up two kinds of prejudices from my lifetime experiences: a) prejudice b/c you blatantly just do not like a group (and cannot do anything about it b/c you don't own a bank, have stock in a company, blah, blah, blah) and b) prejudice b/c of historic background. I actually did a thesis in my undergraduate years. In it, I discussed how many parents of color (black, latino/hispanic, asian, native american) "warn" in various ways their children about whites based on how past and present treatment. The responses were amazing. One Asian mother told me that she had to b/c in her own words, "they don't have a good track record." Could I disagree with her? No. I'm not saying that all whites need to be warned of b/c many do not. However, I joke sometimes and say that they need to overthrow the ones that make most whites appear wrong, crazy, or evil. If you can get rid of them (as well as other people of color who feel the same way), we may be all right in the world.

But, I digress.....

2. Yeah, I wonder if she's tied in with the relocated nazis. You might want to check into that b/c she may only be a white person from Argentina, not having any mestizo, Indian, or mulatto blood in her at all b/c if she did she shouldn't feel that way.

3. If you are standing in line for 10 minutes that's rude service, period. I've stood in many Inglewood shops waiting for service - only to leave b/c the service was terrible.

I'm happy to have debated yet another topic with you, Mushroom. I look forward to the next topic.

Quite often, yes.

At where I work, everybody knows not to use "The N Word" around me.  I do not like it, and do not want to hear it.  Quite often, the reaction is one of shock, then shame.

One guy here just did not get it when I asked him repeatedly to not say it around me.  Finally, I started to ignore him.  And I mean ignore.  Normally for a period of at least 30-45 minutes, I would pretend he is not there.  He could talk directly to me, and I just ignore it.  If he is talking to our boss, I will talk over him, and not respond to anything he says.  Finally, he got the idea.  He still slips from time to time, but nowhere near as much as he did a year ago.

And yes, I have also asked Blacks to not say it around me.  The reaction I get then is often funny.  But hopefully it also makes them think a bit too.  My objection to the word even prevents me from listening to most of Richard Pryor's work, or that of Eddie Murphy during his "Raw" period.


I'm sorry, but where do you get off asking a black person not to use the word "******?" It's perfectly acceptable for a black person to use it if they want to, and I don't think I have to explain why. How do you think it makes a black person feel when a WHITE man asks THEM not to use that word because the white man finds it offensive??? That's like taking history and slapping that person in the face with it. For over 400 years, whites use the term against blacks as a perjorative, and then all of a sudden whites are the ones offended by its use by a black person (and usually as a term of endearment and brotherhood no less)! That's absurd. As far as being offended when other whites use the word, that I understand and empathise with that because I too get offended by this sort of ignorance, but I'm certainly never offended to hear black people use it. That's ridiculous, I have no right to be.

Personally, I'd prefer it if Black people did not use the "N" word, but I don't get my drawers in a knot.  Most adults have the common sense to know the difference.  It's the dopey white kids who think they're down in da hood 'coz they listen to Fiddy Cent that bother me.  Kids with red hair and doughy complexion walkin' the walk and saying: "'sup n*gga!"
::)

Kids with red hair and doughy complexion walkin' the walk and saying: "'sup n*gga!"
::)


I don't like it, but if the kid is using it with a black friend in a spirit of cameraderie, clearly they have a particular relationship, and it would probably be presumptuous of me to impose my judgement of how they ought to or ought not to refer to each other.  I mean, if I felt entitled to get on their case, then everytime some obnoxious couple started calling each other 'schmoopie-face' in public, I'd have to smack them, too.

What irritates me more is when people try to lamely suggest some equivalence between the traditional use of the word and the way it's used in urban black street lingo.  "Well, those rappers say it, why do you all get bent out of shape when we say it?"  Please.  Do I look stupid?  That's as disingenous as suggesting that Dick means dick.

Besides, it's America -- you certainly can say whatever you wish, just don't be naive.  Just as I'm allowed to call someone's mother a whore, but I'm a fool if I think he's gonna stand for it.

2. Yeah, I wonder if she's tied in with the relocated nazis. You might want to check into that b/c she may only be a white person from Argentina, not having any mestizo, Indian, or mulatto blood in her at all b/c if she did she shouldn't feel that way.


Actually, she is not.  Her family has mostly been there for over a century.  In fact, her uncle is a world famous palentologist.  One thing most people here do not realize is how rare in most countries it is to see such obvious "minorities".  It is even more noticeable in Japan (and other Asian countries) where the minority population is around 2-3%.  Compare this to the US, where even "minorities" are often in the 30-40% range.  We have mor contact with minorities of all types.  In many other areas of the world, it is a curiosity, and not understood at all.


^While I applaud you for trying to overcome such behavior, I must say that it is quite easy for you to ignore such discriminatory behavior. As an African-American and a woman, I face such behavior every day. Can I easily ignore it and walk away?


Well, obviously I am not black.  I would probably handle this much differently if I was.  But it does make a point, in a non-confrontational way for me.  And I am sure it sticks in peoples minds much more then if it was done by a black person.  It shows the idiots that "we" do not all agree with them.  And you have every right to do what you think is right when they offend you.


I'm sorry, but where do you get off asking a black person not to use the word "******?" It's perfectly acceptable for a black person to use it if they want to, and I don't think I have to explain why.


That is a double-standard.  And I do not believe in double standards.  Either a word is right, or it is wrong.  Either it is offensive, or it is not offensive.  I refuse to accept that somebody can use a word that I am not allowed to use, simply because of my ancestry.

And no, it is not "perfectly acctable.  In fact, there are a lot of people who want it expunged from the language entirely.

http://www.blackcommentator.com/10_1.html

Saying "It is ok for me to say it and not you" is as logical as any other double-standard.  If it is wrong, it is wrong.  Plain, simple, end of story.  Otherwise, you are just giving racists the right to do the same thing in return.

And I am not a fool.  I only object when it is used to me, not around me.  If somebody says it to another in conversation, I keep quiet.  It is when they say it to me that I take notice and do/say something about it.

And it is not only "The N Word" that I act like this about.  Any am angered offensive term (chink, jap, wop, kike, bitch, ho is a prostitute], spic, wetback, the list goes on).  I am against offensive speech, and do not accept it being spoken to me.

If you think it is acceptible, I think you need to take a long and serious look at the very idea.  You need to consider what "double standard" is, and what the consequences may be if this continues.  You are giving every "white supremist" permission to do whatever discriminatory privlidges they want, because you are saying that a double standard is acceptable.

A true "double standard" would apply if there were some term that had been coined by blacks to marginalize whites, which whites then started using as a term of cameraderie.

re: Mushroom

Ludicrous. What the black community has done over the centuries is they've taken a word which was originally intended to demean them and cause them emotional pain, and turned it into a word of comeraderie and brotherhood within their own community. That's the ultimate reversal, and I respect that. The reason it's usually not appropriate for any white person to say it is obvious. Traditionally the word was used by white to demen blacks, you can't expect that connotation to change in little over a generation. It might be a double-standard, but it's not that big of a deal. As a white man, I've never had the inclination to use the word at all anyway. It doesn't bother me that the black community uses it as a friendly word amongst themselves, because like I said, it's the ultimate F-U to all the racist bastards in the past who have tried to bring thier community down with it. You have no right to try and take that victory away from them.

The fact that some black people choose not to use the word because they dislike it in any context, doesn't change anything. You think that a few people speak for the feelings of the black community as a whole? "Nigga," and nigge* are two completely different words as far as I'm concerned.

It's so unbelievably condescending for a white person to tell a black person that they can't use the word (for any reason) because we can't and that's not fair. Well, tell me, was it fair when our ancestors were keeping their ancestors as property? Was it fair when our grandfathers were using better toiletts and eating at better restaurants simply because they were white?

Your failure to accept the difference between when a white person uses it and when a black person uses it, is an expression of resentment for having that social and racial legacy saddled on you simply because you're white. You don't want to feel responsible because in reality you aren't, but you confuse that reality with having the right to ignore the social ramifications of past racism that still exist today, and the social contexts they've created. You can't ignore them, you have to deal with them, and b!tching about a double-standard such as this is fruitless and a little insensitive to be honest.

My gawd, I love you McDonald. I would have your babies. LOL  :-X

Then I should stop correcting everybody for it's use then.

Either a word is right, or it is wrong.  I am not going to get on somebodies case for the use of a word that it seems like everybody else in here says is OK.

And if somebody thinks that is niggardly of me, that is fine.  I am tired of beating my head against a wall here.  It seems that to a lot of people in here, no matter what I do, I am wrong.  Since it does not apply to me, why am I even wasting my time and energy?  After all, it does not affect me.

Then I should stop correcting everybody for it's use then.

Either a word is right, or it is wrong.  I am not going to get on somebodies case for the use of a word that it seems like everybody else in here says is OK.

And if somebody thinks that is niggardly of me, that is fine.  I am tired of beating my head against a wall here.  It seems that to a lot of people in here, no matter what I do, I am wrong.  Since it does not apply to me, why am I even wasting my time and energy?  After all, it does not affect me.


The point is, it's not as simple as it being "ok" or not.  And your contrived misuse of the benign word 'niggardly', as if to try to bait someone into displaying their own misunderstanding of the word, comes off as simply childish.

Then I should stop correcting everybody for it's use then.

Either a word is right, or it is wrong.  I am not going to get on somebodies case for the use of a word that it seems like everybody else in here says is OK.

And if somebody thinks that is niggardly of me, that is fine.  I am tired of beating my head against a wall here.  It seems that to a lot of people in here, no matter what I do, I am wrong.  Since it does not apply to me, why am I even wasting my time and energy?  After all, it does not affect me.


If it doesn't affect you, God bless you and good day.  Would that I had the luxury of indifference.

My gawd, I love you McDonald. I would have your babies. LOL  :-X


yeah, i've only read a few of his posts but pretty good stuff. i might have to stop somewhere short of the childbearing though!

Quite often, yes.

At where I work, everybody knows not to use "The N Word" around me.  I do not like it, and do not want to hear it.  Quite often, the reaction is one of shock, then shame.

One guy here just did not get it when I asked him repeatedly to not say it around me.  Finally, I started to ignore him.  And I mean ignore. 


by ignoring such offensive behavior, are you not condoning it ???

great point, star70
yeah, i've only read a few of his posts but pretty good stuff. i might have to stop somewhere short of the childbearing though!


Just joking of course. I'm a mom already and I know whose children I will really bear.


by ignoring such offensive behavior, are you not condoning it ???


great point, star70

I'm sorry, but where do you get off asking a black person not to use the word "******?" It's perfectly acceptable for a black person to use it if they want to, and I don't think I have to explain why. How do you think it makes a black person feel when a WHITE man asks THEM not to use that word because the white man finds it offensive??? That's like taking history and slapping that person in the face with it. For over 400 years, whites use the term against blacks as a perjorative, and then all of a sudden whites are the ones offended by its use by a black person (and usually as a term of endearment and brotherhood no less)! That's absurd. As far as being offended when other whites use the word, that I understand and empathise with that because I too get offended by this sort of ignorance, but I'm certainly never offended to hear black people use it. That's ridiculous, I have no right to be.


McD. sometimes you can be so full of crap.

If calling someone a nigge* is offensive or causes hurt to someone then it's unacceptable to say it by anyone regardless of their color.

If it's a word of insult then it's no different than say calling someone "ugly".
If two unattractive people want to call themselves or others "ugly", then THEY CAN, but it is NOT OK. And saying it's all right because maybe they're unattractive and maybe they've been called it doesn't make it any more right.

Calling each other "nigge*" or "niggaz" between blacks is unacceptable because it's a poor choice of words, is degrading and encourages people to think like victims.

And that includes Kanye West and his trashy "Gold Digger" song and its "...she ain't messin' wit' no broke niggaz" line. Kanye West obviously doesn't care about black people.

--Edited to remove the "******".

McD. sometimes you can be so full of crap.

If calling someone a nigge* is offensive or causes hurt to someone then it's unacceptable to say it by anyone regardless of their color.

If it's a word of insult then it's no different than say calling someone "ugly".
If two unattractive people want to call themselves or others "ugly", then THEY CAN, but it is NOT OK. And saying it's all right because maybe they're unattractive and maybe they've been called it doesn't make it any more right.

Calling each other "nigge*" or "niggaz" between blacks is unacceptable because it's a poor choice of words, is degrading and encourages people to think like victims.

And that includes Kanye West and his trashy "Gold Digger" song and its "...she ain't messin' wit' no broke niggaz" line. Kanye West obviously doesn't care about black people.

--Edited to remove the "******".



Aw, zcrito, thanks for the thoughtful commentary, and for showing such restraint in using the word only four times in your own post.  Given such authentic concern for the damage that word can cause, I can only imagine how painful it must have been for you to make the effort to circumvent the censor so you could display as much of it as possible.  But thank you for taking the trouble to do that, as emotionally painful as it must have been.  I mean, the 'greater good', and all that.  After all, people of good will may disagree on strategy, but they seek the same end, right?
;)

McD. sometimes you can be so full of crap.

If calling someone a nigge* is offensive or causes hurt to someone then it's unacceptable to say it by anyone regardless of their color.

If it's a word of insult then it's no different than say calling someone "ugly".
If two unattractive people want to call themselves or others "ugly", then THEY CAN, but it is NOT OK. And saying it's all right because maybe they're unattractive and maybe they've been called it doesn't make it any more right.

Calling each other "nigge*" or "niggaz" between blacks is unacceptable because it's a poor choice of words, is degrading and encourages people to think like victims.

And that includes Kanye West and his trashy "Gold Digger" song and its "...she ain't messin' wit' no broke niggaz" line. Kanye West obviously doesn't care about black people.

--Edited to remove the "******".



It is of no use to comment on that in here I have discovered.  And I noticed that sarcasm is lost as well.

I find the word offensive, and will continue to treat it as offensive, no matter who says it to me.

And if some people continue with the "it is OK for this person to use it, but not that person", then they are endorsing a double standard, just as bad as the double standards they claim they want to remove.

It is more of the "what is fine for me is not OK for you" line of thinking that keeps discrimination alive in the first place.  And if telling me it is OK for a black person to use that word but it is not OK for me, that is discrimination in and of itself.

And don't nobody in here tell me not to use the word "boy" either.  It is a perfectly fine word, and is used reguardless of race here in the South.  If I have to accept your use of a word that many find offensive, then you have no right to complain if I use a word you think is offensive.

Boo hoo.  Informed, intelligent people of goodwill may honorably disagree on the issue of whether the term should ever be used by anyone under any circumstances.  But to my mind, anyone who attempts to suggest a simplistic moral equivalence among the varying contexts in which the word is used is clearly demonstrating a fundamental unwillingness to engage in meaningful discussion.

We can all try to put our egos on the back burner, suspend a bit of the sarcasm, resist the patronizing "what no one else but me seems to understand..." rhetoric and consider that other people might actually have a valid point of view, whether we agree with it or not.

Or we can keep doing this. Either way, I'm fine.

The point is, it's not as simple as it being "ok" or not.  And your contrived misuse of the benign word 'niggardly', as if to try to bait someone into displaying their own misunderstanding of the word, comes off as simply childish.

I agree.  Racial issues are nothing to s****** about!
;)

Civility, people, civility.  I notice a lot of venom on this thread.  We should all be here for fun--and possible edification.  Robust debate is good cerebral exercise, but let's keep it in the realm of debate, not pokes-in-the-eye!

Niggardly refers to stinginess.

If you say a word is "either right or wrong" to use, you limit yourself to black-and-white thinking (no pun intended) and set yourself up to feel offended.  Like I say, I'm not comfortable with the whole "N" word usage in pop culture, but I'm not gonna go around bawling people out for it.  That's not going to get me anywhere, so I just let it go.

Civility, people, civility.  I notice a lot of venom on this thread.  

yeah, race has that effect. i went to germany a few years ago and was at some college party and this german guy was talking about how amazing europe finds america's problems with race, it's so dug in. and considering the horrendous recent history of germany, that's saying something. they had to confront their heinous past when the allies invaded but america has never had to face its history with slavery and jim crow and all that horror. in this culture we repress it, i think, and try to pretend it isn't there -- unless we're among the people who suffer from it directly, in which case it's existence is undeniable and, i imagine, the refusal of the culture at large to acknowledge it is probably singularly infuriating.

someone in the office used the "N" word the other day; she was just quoting someone else in the context of telling a story but it made my flesh crawl. i hate that word more than anything.

yeah, race has that effect. i went to germany a few years ago and was at some college party and this german guy was talking about how amazing europe finds america's problems with race, it's so dug in. and considering the horrendous recent history of germany, that's saying something.
Ja, vaht's with ze racism you people!
:D

Ja, vaht's with ze racism you people!
:D


lol. yeah, it was really a moment quite like that. he phrased it really indelicately, i think because his grasp of english wasn't so hot.

let me hasten to add though that when i went in general i was very impressed with the political and social awareness of the people in germany. they've searched their souls since the war and they take their social infrastructure seriously, and you'll notice they don't leave their poverty striken on the streets the way the conservative government does in america. in the western society of nations i've never seen anything remind me so much of the warsaw ghetto as that unbelievable horror in new orleans. that's going to shame this nation for a generation, i think.

let me hasten to add though that when i went in general i was very impressed with the political and social awareness of the people in germany. they've searched their souls since the war and they take their social infrastructure seriously, and you'll notice they don't leave their poverty striken on the streets the way the conservative government does in america. in the western society of nations i've never seen anything remind me so much of the warsaw ghetto as that unbelievable horror in new orleans. that's going to shame this nation for a generation, i think.

Indeed, American business interests constantly try to suppress how well the progressive societies of post-WWII Europe actually work. 

Aw, zcrito, thanks for the thoughtful commentary, and for showing such restraint in using the word only four times in your own post.  Given such authentic concern for the damage that word can cause, I can only imagine how painful it must have been for you to make the effort to circumvent the censor so you could display as much of it as possible.  But thank you for taking the trouble to do that, as emotionally painful as it must have been.  I mean, the 'greater good', and all that.  After all, people of good will may disagree on strategy, but they seek the same end, right?
;)


Emotionally painful? No, it was easy typing it out -- twice actually.

Do I think it's a severely offensive word? NO. It's no worse than some of the other words we throw at some people. People can call themselves or anyone else whatever they like, just make sure they remember who's doing it and spare me the victim garbage later on.

Kanye West ** is an idiot.  I don't like him, and I don't like his first name. Did you catch my Kanye West joke?

** But I do so like his last CD/album's cover "The College Dropout" (seriously).

Civility, people, civility.  I notice a lot of venom on this thread.  We should all be here for fun--and possible edification.  Robust debate is good cerebral exercise, but let's keep it in the realm of debate, not pokes-in-the-eye!



I am civil, dammit!

in speaking of race and bigotry and all that...

http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=1231684&page=1

that's just plain WEIRD.

"Oct. 20, 2005 —  Thirteen-year-old twins Lamb and Lynx Gaede have one album out, another on the way, a music video, and lots of fans.

"They may remind you another famous pair of singers, the Olsen Twins, and the girls say they like that. But unlike the Olsens, who built a media empire on their fun-loving, squeaky-clean image, Lamb and Lynx are cultivating a much darker personna. They are white nationalists and use their talents to preach a message of hate. "

in speaking of race and bigotry and all that...

http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=1231684&page=1

that's just plain WEIRD.

"Oct. 20, 2005 —  Thirteen-year-old twins Lamb and Lynx Gaede have one album out, another on the way, a music video, and lots of fans.

"They may remind you another famous pair of singers, the Olsen Twins, and the girls say they like that. But unlike the Olsens, who built a media empire on their fun-loving, squeaky-clean image, Lamb and Lynx are cultivating a much darker personna. They are white nationalists and use their talents to preach a message of hate. "




I saw them on TV last night.  Sick, sad, sorry excuses for parents I would say.  We can only hope
that kids who are raised in that cult like atmosphere will one day see how wrong it all is.  But I won't
hold my breath on it, it is too easy to pump yourself up for arbitrary reasons, such as by virtue of
birth, than to actually do it by your own accomplishments.

in speaking of race and bigotry and all that...

http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=1231684&page=1

that's just plain WEIRD.

"Oct. 20, 2005 —  Thirteen-year-old twins Lamb and Lynx Gaede have one album out, another on the way, a music video, and lots of fans.

"They may remind you another famous pair of singers, the Olsen Twins, and the girls say they like that. But unlike the Olsens, who built a media empire on their fun-loving, squeaky-clean image, Lamb and Lynx are cultivating a much darker personna. They are white nationalists and use their talents to preach a message of hate. "



Lamb and Lynx?  If you're gonna name your twins Lamb and Lynx, you better push 'em into show business, because otherwise...
:D

McD. sometimes you can be so full of crap.

If calling someone a nigge* is offensive or causes hurt to someone then it's unacceptable to say it by anyone regardless of their color.

If it's a word of insult then it's no different than say calling someone "ugly".
If two unattractive people want to call themselves or others "ugly", then THEY CAN, but it is NOT OK. And saying it's all right because maybe they're unattractive and maybe they've been called it doesn't make it any more right.

Calling each other "nigge*" or "niggaz" between blacks is unacceptable because it's a poor choice of words, is degrading and encourages people to think like victims.

And that includes Kanye West and his trashy "Gold Digger" song and its "...she ain't messin' wit' no broke niggaz" line. Kanye West obviously doesn't care about black people.

--Edited to remove the "******".



You think I'm full of crap? Big deal! You haven't given any reasons why what I've said is crap, you simply stated what you believe to be the universally accepted truth and included some comment about Kanye West, who really has little if anything at all to do with this. Well done.


Do I think it's a severely offensive word? NO.


Now THAT'S full of crap!

Emotionally painful? No, it was easy typing it out -- twice actually.

Do I think it's a severely offensive word? NO. It's no worse than some of the other words we throw at some people. People can call themselves or anyone else whatever they like, just make sure they remember who's doing it and spare me the victim garbage later on.




You just don't seem to get it.  It is a severely offensive word with a singular history to it.  In this regard you
seem to be the only person here that doesn't know, or will not acknowledge that. I like to point to the story of Ty Cobb who jumped into the stands and severely beat a man in a wheelchair because the man called him the word that you do not believe to be severely offensive.  The judge in the case dismissed the case against Cobb because he felt that the man had used sufficient provocation, and Cobb was basically within his rights.  We all know that Cobb was not shy about using the word, to people who were not able to so much as lift their eyes and look him in the face, but pity the fool who would use it on him.  Lest you say that that was along time ago, it was used in the same way well within my lifetime, and I am sure their are still circumstances where that is still true. 
What has happened is that the people who were subjected to this treatment, and that word, have taken possession of the word, you could say we own it, and in this way we are diffusing its power, in our own way, in our own time.

What has happened is that the people who were subjected to this treatment, and that word, have taken possession of the word, you could say we own it, and in this way we are diffusing its power, in our own way, in our own time.


I just wanted to single this statement out. If anyone should remember anything written about this topic on this thread, this should be it.

You just don't seem to get it.  It is a severely offensive word with a singular history to it.  In this regard you
seem to be the only person here that doesn't know, or will not acknowledge that. I like to point to the story of Ty Cobb who jumped into the stands and severely beat a man in a wheelchair because the man called him the word that you do not believe to be severely offensive.  The judge in the case dismissed the case against Cobb because he felt that the man had used sufficient provocation, and Cobb was basically within his rights.  We all know that Cobb was not shy about using the word, to people who were not able to so much as lift their eyes and look him in the face, but pity the fool who would use it on him.  Lest you say that that was along time ago, it was used in the same way well within my lifetime, and I am sure their are still circumstances where that is still true. 
What has happened is that the people who were subjected to this treatment, and that word, have taken possession of the word, you could say we own it, and in this way we are diffusing its power, in our own way, in our own time.


Oh! I get what you're saying. I just don't agree.


And your Ty Cobb story doesn't quite match up with what I found...


These incidents pale in comparison with what happened at Hilltop Park in New York in May 1912, and what that episode triggered. A fan whom Cobb recognized as a regular heckler was sitting behind the Tigers' dugout verbally abusing Cobb. He and Cobb traded insults for a while, but Cobb wanted to avoid trouble, so he stayed in center field carriage park area during the second inning. In the third, he went by the New York dugout to look for the owner to ask to have the fan removed. When he got back to the Tigers' bench, he yelled something to the fan about his sister. The fan, Claude Lueker, responded to Cobb by calling him a "half-******." Sam Crawford asked Cobb if he would take that from the fan, at which point Cobb charged twelve rows into the stands and began to beat the fan vigorously.

It was at this point that people alerted Cobb to Lueker's handicap—he had lost three fingers on one hand and all of his other hand in an industrial accident. Police pulled Cobb off Lueker, and he was ejected...


http://wso.williams.edu/~jkossuth/cobb/race.htm

Oh! I get what you're saying. I just don't agree.


And your Ty Cobb story doesn't quite match up with what I found...


These incidents pale in comparison with what happened at Hilltop Park in New York in May 1912, and what that episode triggered. A fan whom Cobb recognized as a regular heckler was sitting behind the Tigers' dugout verbally abusing Cobb. He and Cobb traded insults for a while, but Cobb wanted to avoid trouble, so he stayed in center field carriage park area during the second inning. In the third, he went by the New York dugout to look for the owner to ask to have the fan removed. When he got back to the Tigers' bench, he yelled something to the fan about his sister. The fan, Claude Lueker, responded to Cobb by calling him a "half-******." Sam Crawford asked Cobb if he would take that from the fan, at which point Cobb charged twelve rows into the stands and began to beat the fan vigorously.

It was at this point that people alerted Cobb to Lueker's handicap—he had lost three fingers on one hand and all of his other hand in an industrial accident. Police pulled Cobb off Lueker, and he was ejected...


http://wso.williams.edu/~jkossuth/cobb/race.htm


I stand corrected on the wheelchair, it is how I had heard the story.

Xcrito, are you upset that she mentioned the man was in a wheelchair or that he was called something he didn't want to be called?

Xcrito, are you upset that she mentioned the man was in a wheelchair or that he was called something he didn't want to be called?


Neither. I'm just surprised she mentioned Ty Cobb and that really odd example. I know more about Ty Cobb that I care to. Athletes were treated different back then I guess, even when they acted like idiots. 

As for being "upset", not me.

(Xcrito ?)

Neither. I'm just surprised she mentioned Ty Cobb and that really odd example. I know more about Ty Cobb that I care to. Athletes were treated different back then I guess, even when they acted like idiots. 

As for being "upset", not me.

(Xcrito ?)



That's an odd example?  A judge ruled that having that term used 'against' you was sufficient provocation to beat the crap out of a wheelchair-bound amputee.  Hello.

Neither. I'm just surprised she mentioned Ty Cobb and that really odd example. I know more about Ty Cobb that I care to. Athletes were treated different back then I guess, even when they acted like idiots. 

As for being "upset", not me.

(Xcrito ?)



sorry, love. Mistyped, not personal.

in speaking of race and bigotry and all that...

http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=1231684&page=1

that's just plain WEIRD.

"Oct. 20, 2005 —  Thirteen-year-old twins Lamb and Lynx Gaede have one album out, another on the way, a music video, and lots of fans.

"They may remind you another famous pair of singers, the Olsen Twins, and the girls say they like that. But unlike the Olsens, who built a media empire on their fun-loving, squeaky-clean image, Lamb and Lynx are cultivating a much darker personna. They are white nationalists and use their talents to preach a message of hate. "



First I thought it was Jenna and Barbara ten years ago!

Then I saw the photo of them with Hitlerized smiley-face t-shirts, and I thought it must be a sick joke, and those responsible ought not to be exploiting 13-year-olds to pull off a sick joke.  But apparently, their old man is dead serious (yeah, seriously sicko).  He uses a swastika to brand his cows.
:o


Nazism: You have two cows, the government takes them both and shoots you!
(from one of the countless variations of the "two cows" parables, can't find this one in particular, but here's a link to another--
http://www.econ.unt.edu/elopez/TwoCows.htm )
:D

Anyway, I don't think it's the government's business in a free society to tell pop he can't brand his cows with a swastika or promote white supremecy, but in light of what just happened in Toledo, I think a cease and desist order is warranted on the use of his daughters via the "child endangerment" statute.
>:(

it's funny, you wanna do something because it's so obviously sick and misguided, with the fraulein olsen twins of the SS, but i guess there's nothing you can really do about it. you can't take the kids away from their parents because that's not what a free society's about. you just have to make this the kind of society where people like that are marginalized. unfortunately they're getting a lot of "news of the weird" type attention (from, not least, me, i guess, since i posted that link).

it's funny, you wanna do something because it's so obviously sick and misguided, with the fraulein olsen twins of the SS, but i guess there's nothing you can really do about it. you can't take the kids away from their parents because that's not what a free society's about. you just have to make this the kind of society where people like that are marginalized. unfortunately they're getting a lot of "news of the weird" type attention (from, not least, me, i guess, since i posted that link).

They shouldn't take the kids away just on the grounds presented, but they order them to stop using minors to promote their hateful message on the grounds that it may cause physical and psychological harm to the kids.