;).....tell me about it! ::)  No, I don't think they should be able to obtain driver's licenses, amongst other things as well.



Erin :)


Examples of what annoys the crap out of me...

1.  When they use food stamps, and then whip out a $100 bill to buy Tecate :P

2.  When they are on food stamps or WIC with five children in tow and obviously have another on the way :P

3.  When the husband stands around looking all smug, asks for cigarettes in Spanish expecting the cashier to know Spanish (believe it or not, some of us don't speak Spanish) and the pregnant wife with five children in tow is left to bag the groceries :P

I know it's incredibly callous and racist, but stereotypes are based in fact. 

Examples of what annoys the crap out of me...

1.  When they use food stamps, and then whip out a $100 bill to buy Tecate :P

2.  When they are on food stamps or WIC with five children in tow and obviously have another on the way :P

3.  When the husband stands around looking all smug, asks for cigarettes in Spanish expecting the cashier to know Spanish (believe it or not, some of us don't speak Spanish) and the pregnant wife with five children in tow is left to bag the groceries :P

I know it's incredibly callous and racist, but stereotypes are based in fact. 

And you're the Korean mini-mart proprietor who follows them around and make sure they no stealee nutting!
:D

And you're the Korean mini-mart proprietor who follows them around and make sure they no stealee nutting!
:D


I'm Chinese.  We actually have a couple white guys and a Hispanic who do the loss prevention for the store.  And the only thing I've seen stolen is a pregnancy test by a woman with a daughter in tow, which amused the hell out of me.

Examples of what annoys the crap out of me...


2.  When they are on food stamps or WIC with five children in tow and obviously have another on the way :P


I know it's incredibly callous and racist, but stereotypes are based in fact. 


I know what you mean on this one, around here we have a "food bank" which gives out enough food to do a family (based on the number of people in the family and only for people on social assistance) for a week. I used to volunteer there, one day a woman came in-she had 5 kids and was pregnant with twins (she made sure to tell us that she was having twins so that we could give her extra since she was eating for 3-her words not mine)

So, what do we do about these indolent, greedy poor people who want more food, more tobacco, more liquor, and more children? 
What's the answer?

I say, no more welfare benefits for able-bodied adults....
and a guaranteed living-wage job for any man or woman who asks for one.

Conservatives cheer for the first part, but call the second part "socialist." 

You see, Ronald Reagan, who popularized the "welfare queen" anectdote (as told by Whitewolf and Ricecube) had no real answers.  The goal of the "welfare queen" (or "sturdy beggar," to use an older epithet) stereotype is not to actually do anything about the problems of poverty.  The goal is to demonize, to divide, and to harden the public's heart to the hardships of poverty.  If we can look at poor people buying liquor and cigars, we can write off poverty as a matter of moral failure and willful lassitude.  Reagan didn't start it this attitude.  He merely reintroduced a callous attitude which had been relegated to the pages of Dickens novels.  After all, Reagan was a spokesman for reactionary idealogues and industrial barons who quite missed the good old days before the rise of the public sector and social conscience.  Dubya has done his d@mnedest to shove the deal back to 1885, but he hasn't quite succeeded.

I just wonder what the point those of you who go on about what's in poor people's foodbaskets are trying to make.  What are do you really think you are saying?
???

What's the chamber of commerce's interest in illegal aliens obtaining drivers' licenses?


The chamber of commerce has always like their illegal immigrants for their cheap slave-like labor, so I guess letting them drive will make it even easier to steal legal Americans' jobs.

I just wonder what the point those of you who go on about what's in poor people's foodbaskets are trying to make.  What are do you really think you are saying?
???


What I personally am saying is that if someone is strapped for cash, he/she shouldn't be spending what little is available on pumping out more kids and poisoning one's body with alcohol and tobacco and methamphetamines.  I am also saying that while I don't have a problem with certain people poisoning themselves as such, I don't believe my tax dollars should be used to support their habits.

Why?  What did you think I was saying?

I agree.  It also annoys the crap out of me to see someone use food stamps in a grocery store, then walk out and load their groceries into a brand new vehicle with $2000 rims.  And no, it's NOT just an anecdote...I see it almost every time I go to a particular grocery store.

Refer to my last post.  I say again, what are you really driving at here?
Frankly, I think it only "annoys the crap out of (you)" because you get off on having the crap annoyed out of you in this fashion.  Hey, what's more satisfying than a sense of righteous indignation?
I do not see this when I go to the grocery store.  Maybe it's different where I live, and maybe I don't make it my business to snoop into other people's affairs at the plaza. 
Are you telling me you peer over at folks to see what method of payment they're using at the market, and if they're using foodstamps* you crane your neck around to see if they're driving a car with "$2000 rims"?**  Maybe you need to getalife!

*I don't know how many other states use the card system, but Massachusetts uses an EBT card instead of paper coupons. 
**Personally, I don't know the difference between a $200 rim job, and a $2000 rim job.

Well, when there's a woman paying for her food items with one form of payment and the others in cash, holding up the line, it's kinda hard not to notice.  In IL, they have a "Link" card, but you cannot use it to buy things such as toilet paper, cleaning items, etc.  I personally don't know much about rims, but I DO know that "spinners" are NOT cheap.  They're the ones that spin like a roulette wheel and they're at least $1000 if not more.  And, when they check out right in front of me and are still loading their car when I come out, yes, I tend to notice because the parking lot is not that big and most likely, they are parked near me.  It's kind of hard to NOT notice the 3-5 kids running around.

Think whatever you want of me.....keep on believing that these people don't exist.....then come to MY "part of town" and I'll show you that they DO.....maybe you SHOULD make it your business to see what the rest of the world is doing before you get on your soapbox and preach to us about how these welfare abusers DON'T exist....that it's all a lie made up by the conservative right.  Yes, they may be more prevalent where I shop because, to be honest, it's not the nicest part of town.

You missed my drift, sister, I didn't say these "welfare abusers" don't exist either in my town or yours.  Poor folks always try to snag a bit of leisure, luxury, and pizzazz wherever they can.  Always have.  Welfare programs are a bad cycle.  They trap lots of people into static poverty.  In static poverty thrift doesn't pay off.  What I said in the prior post is I'd love to see an end to welfare programs with the stipulation that the economy be oriented toward reliable jobs that pay decent wages. 

Right now the Wall Street bigshots are giving us all the finger and saying we American workers are greedy because we won't work for a buck an hour.  The Republicans intend to keep firing America as a nation and telling us we're in a "new economic reality" and "globalization is inevitable."  They have no answers for poor folks except Dickensian servitude doubly more degrading than welfare.  The Dems just simper as Wall Street barons lead them on a tether.  I voted against Clinton in '96 because of so-called "welfare reform."  They're all happy to take benefits away and brag about how much the welfare rolls have dropped, but they never acknowledge what the true consequences have been.  Whether John and Mary Welfare play it honorably or exploitatively, our dominating political class has no viable alternatives. 

I say it's none of your beeswax what anybody else buys at the grocery store.  If you want to give me some Limbaugh lip about it's your business because you pay taxes, I'll have to break it to yout that you'd have to pay even more taxes in an economy that would allow us all to pay our own way. 

That is, unless you are in favor of returning to a century ago when the cities ran hectic with tuberculosis, typhus, sweatshop labor, tenement fires, murderous street urchins, and no social services at all.  A hundred years ago the countryside was full of desperate dirt farmers and sharecroppers.  Hunger, impetigo, rickets, and idiocy ran rampant through the hollows and prairies, and children left school at ten to work the fields and mines.  What strength hard divorce laws gave the family unit was eaten up by crippling occupational accidents, early death, insanity, men gone wandering in search of work, men given up and abandoning the family to ride the rails.  So, if you don't want taxes to go into this terrible welfare state, and you don't want to pay the higher costs of a unionized workforce with jobs and security for all who ask, you WILL pay a greater cost.  That cost is in poor public health, class oppression, and low public morale.

The "middle class" was a government program honed deliberately in the 20th century.  There never was a halcyon period of low taxes and universal Leave-it-to-Beaver purity.  That is the dishonest impression conservatives give of the past. 

Those welfare cheats cost you practically nothing.  Your contempt for them costs you much more--peace of mind and the virtue of minding your own business. 

You missed my drift, sister, I didn't say these "welfare abusers" don't exist either in my town or yours.  Poor folks always try to snag a bit of leisure, luxury, and pizzazz wherever they can.  Always have.  Welfare programs are a bad cycle.  They trap lots of people into static poverty.  In static poverty thrift doesn't pay off.  What I said in the prior post is I'd love to see an end to welfare programs with the stipulation that the economy be oriented toward reliable jobs that pay decent wages. 

It'd be nice if welfare programs also taught a bit of financial responsibility to their beneficiaries as well.  It would also be nice if the job market would cater to what you suggested and pay a janitor $30/hour to clean your toilet, but that is not going to happen.  A humorous note: remember the episode of the Simpsons where Homer won the position of sanitation official and spruced up the Springfield sanitation system--the episode with the "Garbageman" song and all the workers in shiny uniforms dancing with mops in hand?  In one month he had spent the entire year's garbage budget.  I realize that this is fictional, but the underlying principle is that you cannot afford to pay so-called "unskilled laborers" such a high salary because most places do not have the budget to keep it up.  There is also no incentive to increase unskilled labor salaries because of the topic we are discussing, which is illegal aliens.  Why should grocery stores or sanitation departments or whatever pay people more when Juan and Habib will come and do the same job for the current rate, and even less?  People may be complaining about low wages now, but employers won't care because they know that they can find a token illegal alien to work the same job without complaint, and while they will not tell it to you to your face in those words, it is more than implied.  This is one of the reasons why we have to curb illegal immigration, even though they are stealing jobs that "even black people won't want".  I realize that this may lead to increased outsourcing of jobs, but the "reliable" jobs will stay, because you know what?  Someone will always be needed to clean the toilets at your local supermarket, or to pick corn, or to babysit your kids while you go clubbing.  And you can believe it or not, but these jobs will generate enough money to keep the people alive.  They may not be able to enjoy the "leisure, luxury, and pizzazz" that you think everyone deserves, but to be brutally honest, nobody is entitled to that.


I say it's none of your beeswax what anybody else buys at the grocery store.  If you want to give me some Limbaugh lip about it's your business because you pay taxes, I'll have to break it to yout that you'd have to pay even more taxes in an economy that would allow us all to pay our own way.   

Those welfare cheats cost you practically nothing.  Your contempt for them costs you much more--peace of mind and the virtue of minding your own business. 


I have contempt for the welfare cheats because of that--they are cheating the legal citizens and legal aliens of our country out of benefits that they are entitled to, which makes the system as ass-backwards as a system can get.  They are diluting the pool of resources that taxpaying citizens and legal aliens contribute to, and in so doing, they are driving up medical costs among other things, and burdening the system by forcing it to handle more than it was designed to support.  I recall in another thread that you were lamenting tax cuts and how the money has to come from somewhere.  Maybe we would have enough tax money to go around, despite the tax cuts, if a certain part of our society would actually pay taxes too.

And it is my business to care about this.  Consider that when you go into a restaurant or a store, and patronize said establishment, you are essentially contributing to that business' success, and a big part of that is customer service.  It becomes your business when that establishment takes your hard earned money but does not provide you the service you desire.  It is the same thing with government.  I am not at all satisfied when a system that I am giving a great chunk of my paycheck to would rather cater to a group that did not go through the proper hurdles to become a citizen and pays no taxes than to people who fought for their country with honor and valor, or their children.  It's damned well my business to criticize the government's handling of welfare and I am glad others do as well.  There are lots of people out there who need the services provided by Uncle Sam, and if a person has enough money to buy beer and cigarettes, they should not need food stamps, and especially not if they aren't supposed to be in the country in the first place.

I know that this is incompassionate of me, and maybe even prejudiced, but after the 500th time you have seen something like this happen, you would probably be just a tad jaded too. 

Rice Cube,
Well thought-out post.  Many good points.
I think you'll find the people who cheat America out of the most tax money are rich people and corporations.  I too would like to see folks on the dole able to get good jobs so they too could b#tch about paying taxes. 
You mention that janitors are never going to get paid 30 bucks an hour.  At UMass, for instance, where they are unionized maintenance workers got paid anywhere from $12 to $20 an hour.  They don't make a killing, but the do OK.  Of course, it costs more in student fees, but when I was there, I never objected to my fees paying the wages of laborers and teaching staff.  It's the bloated administration that I objected to.
Like a lot of educational institutions, UMass got "corporatized."  When that happened, the bureaucracy got bloated.  You've got Assistant Associate Vice Chancellors for Development getting 150K a year, while grad students who teach huge lecture halls full of students can barely scrape a living together.

You seem to think the government has only to dismantle all entitlement programs and the folks will all go out and get those great jobs they were shirking.  I just don't agree with you there.  Since "welfare reform" hit my area the food pantries cannot keep enough goods in stock and the shelters are always busting at the girders. 
You want no welfare state and laissez-faire capitalism.  These two economic priorities are incompatible unless you are happy to see staggering amounts of human suffering.
I agree, by the way, I don't think people on the public dole should be buying booze and cigarettes.  I also know this is not the root of epidemic poverty.
So what is your answer to this issue you believe it is your business to care about?

You seem to think the government has only to dismantle all entitlement programs and the folks will all go out and get those great jobs they were shirking.  I just don't agree with you there.  Since "welfare reform" hit my area the food pantries cannot keep enough goods in stock and the shelters are always busting at the girders. 
You want no welfare state and laissez-faire capitalism.  These two economic priorities are incompatible unless you are happy to see staggering amounts of human suffering.
I agree, by the way, I don't think people on the public dole should be buying booze and cigarettes.  I also know this is not the root of epidemic poverty.
So what is your answer to this issue you believe it is your business to care about?


You misunderstand me.  I do not want there to be a complete absence of welfare, because that would be ludicrous and detrimental to the citizens who actually need the help.  Personally, I have been on unemployment benefits once, my father was on unemployment for three years (which helped him pay for tuition to get that elusive bachelor's degree and a new job), my wife has been on WIC and MediCal to pay for food and for the baby's healthcare while we were barely making ends meet, and I have a cousin who collects disability pay because of cerebral palsy (she is now living on her own in Kansas somewhere), which prevents her from working a "normal" job.  I understand the need for these programs, but that does not mean that I condone the abuse of the programs. 

It would be nice if they put a cap on what could be spent using EBT cash-aid benefits, so that people can still buy necessities like toilet paper and cleaning/laundry supplies, but not beer.  They already have this automated in grocery store registers for the electronic food stamps, which prevent the purchase of non-food items, so it would be a simple matter to do this for EBT as well.  If they argue that they must take some cash out for car repairs or something legitimate, there would be issues there because there is no way to enforce that they use the money on what they claim, but lots of places of business already allow EBT cash-aid to be used, so it may be feasible to lobby car repair shops and other necessary businesses (i.e. not a nudey-bar) to accept EBT as well, which would eliminate the need of getting cash back with the EBT card.  I don't know if this will ever happen, but it would be my suggestion to avoid some of the abuse.  This is, of course, going to piss off a lot of people who use their EBT to buy beer :D :P

The laissez-faire capitalism idea is a good one, but like communism, it fails because of the nature of human greed.  Ideally it would be great to have perfect economic competition, but because of the way the system is set up, businesses have to cut costs and increase profits to get ahead in the game.  This leads to layoffs for non-essential staff and outsourcing.  I am not saying that this is necessarily good, but ultimately it will lead to improvement in the society, because people who are out of work and want a job in the new economy must improve themselves through education and skill training in order to attain those jobs.  My father made almost $200K a year when he was laid off, and instead of saying "rabble rabble rabble", he realized that he had to get the education in order to regain an even footing.  I am not at all content with my current job, and I never intended to stay in it, only using it to make sure the baby would have food, which is why I am reapplying to graduate school so that I can have a better future.  The government offers tons of tax free and tax deferred education grants already for this purpose, so it's up to people to take advantage of them.  After all, at some point, people have to be weaned off government spoonfeeding, right?  And since it costs taxpayer money to fund these programs, the government isn't going to advertise as much as you might think ;) 

I'd like to see the welfare program should encourage its beneficiaries to take the initiative to improve on themselves, instead of continuing to pump out benefits with no sign of reciprocation.  That is what my business is to care about.  I'm not simply angry with people for buying beer with their cash-aid, but I want them to be smacked upside the head and be told that they could be doing something more useful with their lives (and money) than controlled liver destruction.

I realize that this has gotten way off topic, and to bring it back on topic, I believe that the denial of driver's licenses to illegal aliens is necessary to at least deter them from leeching off our system and creating a greater tax burden for legal citizens.  Not a complete stop, but a deterrent.

Leaching is in the eye of the beholder.

Leaching is in the eye of the beholder.


And I have beholden a lot of leeching ;)

Not even sure that is a word...I should look it up.

Okay, my bad...


beholden

adj : under a moral obligation to someone


So I should have used "beheld" rather than "beholden" because the above sentence didn't make sense.

...It'd be rather sad without American Movies anymore, but there are worse things....


;D



You think?  ;D  :P :P ;D

I'm just saying that my tax dollars pay for a lot of stuff I don't agree with for people who don't agree with the way other people spend.

You misunderstand me.  I do not want there to be a complete absence of welfare, because that would be ludicrous and detrimental to the citizens who actually need the help.  Personally, I have been on unemployment benefits once, my father was on unemployment for three years (which helped him pay for tuition to get that elusive bachelor's degree and a new job), my wife has been on WIC and MediCal to pay for food and for the baby's healthcare while we were barely making ends meet, and I have a cousin who collects disability pay because of cerebral palsy (she is now living on her own in Kansas somewhere), which prevents her from working a "normal" job.  I understand the need for these programs, but that does not mean that I condone the abuse of the programs. 

It would be nice if they put a cap on what could be spent using EBT cash-aid benefits, so that people can still buy necessities like toilet paper and cleaning/laundry supplies, but not beer.  They already have this automated in grocery store registers for the electronic food stamps, which prevent the purchase of non-food items, so it would be a simple matter to do this for EBT as well.  If they argue that they must take some cash out for car repairs or something legitimate, there would be issues there because there is no way to enforce that they use the money on what they claim, but lots of places of business already allow EBT cash-aid to be used, so it may be feasible to lobby car repair shops and other necessary businesses (i.e. not a nudey-bar) to accept EBT as well, which would eliminate the need of getting cash back with the EBT card.  I don't know if this will ever happen, but it would be my suggestion to avoid some of the abuse.  This is, of course, going to piss off a lot of people who use their EBT to buy beer :D :P

The laissez-faire capitalism idea is a good one, but like communism, it fails because of the nature of human greed.  Ideally it would be great to have perfect economic competition, but because of the way the system is set up, businesses have to cut costs and increase profits to get ahead in the game.  This leads to layoffs for non-essential staff and outsourcing.  I am not saying that this is necessarily good, but ultimately it will lead to improvement in the society, because people who are out of work and want a job in the new economy must improve themselves through education and skill training in order to attain those jobs.  My father made almost $200K a year when he was laid off, and instead of saying "rabble rabble rabble", he realized that he had to get the education in order to regain an even footing.  I am not at all content with my current job, and I never intended to stay in it, only using it to make sure the baby would have food, which is why I am reapplying to graduate school so that I can have a better future.  The government offers tons of tax free and tax deferred education grants already for this purpose, so it's up to people to take advantage of them.  After all, at some point, people have to be weaned off government spoonfeeding, right?  And since it costs taxpayer money to fund these programs, the government isn't going to advertise as much as you might think ;) 

I'd like to see the welfare program should encourage its beneficiaries to take the initiative to improve on themselves, instead of continuing to pump out benefits with no sign of reciprocation.  That is what my business is to care about.  I'm not simply angry with people for buying beer with their cash-aid, but I want them to be smacked upside the head and be told that they could be doing something more useful with their lives (and money) than controlled liver destruction.

Very well put, sir!  You've got a good grasp on the issues, and essentially a moral point of view.  I think we disagree more on what makes people tick, and why people behave in ways of which we don't approve.  I believe I have some ken into the motivations behind the "leeching" behavior you find irritating.  It's an understand I find hard to explain.  It's even harder to convince people not to feel irritated with people who buy beer with foodstamps.  I've had to accept that most people can't see what I can see.
I watched the consumer choices poor folks made when I was a kid working in a supermarket.  It made me feel more sad than angry.  The way I see things, politically speaking, the whole system is effed up.  I would like to see at least one of the major parties embrace a platform that would end this systemic poverty, but I don't see either Republicans or Democrats doing so.

Very well put, sir!  You've got a good grasp on the issues, and essentially a moral point of view.  I think we disagree more on what makes people tick, and why people behave in ways of which we don't approve.  I believe I have some ken into the motivations behind the "leeching" behavior you find irritating.  It's an understand I find hard to explain.  It's even harder to convince people not to feel irritated with people who buy beer with foodstamps.  I've had to accept that most people can't see what I can see.
I watched the consumer choices poor folks made when I was a kid working in a supermarket.  It made me feel more sad than angry.  The way I see things, politically speaking, the whole system is effed up.  I would like to see at least one of the major parties embrace a platform that would end this systemic poverty, but I don't see either Republicans or Democrats doing so.


I felt sad for the people the first few dozen times, and then after seeing the same people doing the same thing over and over again, it got incredibly annoying.  The Republicans and the Democrats are in too much of a power struggle at this point to do anything constructive, so I think this will come down to personal responsibility...which makes for a very bleak future considering what we are discussing now :P

I felt sad for the people the first few dozen times, and then after seeing the same people doing the same thing over and over again, it got incredibly annoying.  The Republicans and the Democrats are in too much of a power struggle at this point to do anything constructive, so I think this will come down to personal responsibility...which makes for a very bleak future considering what we are discussing now :P

Personal responsibility is one thing.  However, race prejudice and class prejudice have are a big problem.  Furthermore, we live in an economy where even accountants and computer engineers are told they have no future.  Even their jobs will get outsourced to India.  Maybe we'll all have to become psychotherapists and videogame designers!
:D

doesn't make any more sense than that kid that was robbing a school, fell through the skylight, sued the school and won, 'why are people in the country illegally?' is the question that should be asked...many are criminals on the lam, I personally have met some...I probably need more info, when the illegal alien applies for the license, shouldn't s/he be deported?