Our hospital cut back on beds on all the "important" wards.
ICU, childrens floor, no dialisys unit left, and beds for people that are sick enough to be hospitalized.

however they have a full wing for detox, and a new wing for a methadone clinic.

People who are sick from something out of their control have to leave the area (away from family and friends) to get treatment.
While people who are addicts (which is nobody's fault but their own) can stay in their hometown for treatment.

I thing it should be the other way around. Keep the sick people in their hometown and send the others away for treatment.

Rehabilitation from drug addiction requires a two-fold approach.
One, the addict needs to break the physical addiction and recover from whatever physical health problems he or she may have aquired during the period of abuse.
Two, the addict needs long term behavioral health treatment.
I don't know how different it is in Canada, but the only distinction between drug addiction and "real" illness is that in America the conservatives like to blame the addict.  Addiction is considered a character flaw and a sin.  This attitude never helped anybody stay off of drugs or recover from addiction, but it sure does help justify social injustice!

Too few heroin addicts have access to methadone, and even fewer have access to adequate behavioral therapy. 

The conservatives run the country and their answer to objectionable behavior by people with out any money is jail.  I mean, Rush Limbaugh and Courtney Love don't get locked up.  So drug addicts get put in jail where they kick the habit but don't really get treated.  They're still addicts when they get out, so they start using again, and get thown back in the slammer.  Never mind that correctional facilities are more costly than treatment facilities, conservaties like to see poor people go to jail, so the cost doesn't phase them.

If America is going to get serious about turning addicts into healthy citizens, the government will have to decriminalize drugs and treat drug abuse medically instead of criminally.  But what fun is that?  It's much more satisfying to say, "stinking junkies and crackheads!  Get 'em off my streets!  Lock 'em up and throw away the key!"
::)

I do agree with you Max, but how do you help someone who doesn't want help? How do you handle someone who has had all the best treatments around (different rehabs, methadone, loved ones support, etc.) and yet still remain addicted to it?

I speak from experience on this. My aunt was, and still is, addicted. Over the past 14 years, she has had every treatment known to man. Forgive me if I ramble after this, but it still hurts, ya know?

Fourteen years ago, my aunt was a normal woman. Sure, she drank and went out and did all that stuff. Nothing major. She held down a good job, took wonderful care of her son, and was an awesome person. Then my grandfather died. She didn't take it very well. Her "friend" (and I use that term loosely) introduced her to heroin. And it all went to sh*t after that. She got pregnant by her boyfriend. My cousin was born addicted to heroin. She's okay now, but you can see that there are some effects lingering from it. After that, she kicked it cold turkey. A year later, she was back on it. Then she got Methadone. It worked for awhile, but then she decided to go back to heroin. The rest of my memories are hazy of this. She went round and round: getting off of it, doing Methadone, rehab, back on, getting arrested, etc. She was finally sent to a rehab place where she couldn't leave. It worked for all of six months. Then she got herself thrown out of there. And heroin lured her back. At some point, her hip gave out on her. The bone deteriorated and now she has a metal hip. She was living with her boyfriend (also an addict who outright REFUSES to give it up), their daughter, and my grandmother. My cousin has no memories from her youth left. They were sold over the years for drug money. Food stamps? Converted to drug money. It got to the point that on Christmas and stuff, we had to buy my cousin toys she could play with then and there so they couldn't be sold.

Two years ago, my aunt was picked up and thrown in prison for possession of drugs and child endangerment. They discovered that she has Hepatitis C and other health problems from the drug. She claims to have changed now. She says she's found God and is finishing her education. I don't believe her. She gets out this December. All I can think of is "how long will it be before she gets picked up again for drugs?"

It's hard to love and trust someone who has let you down so many times in the past. It's hard to give them your support when they've let you down so many times before. It's hard to forgive someone who has done so much damage to your family. I tried to sit down and write her a letter when my son was born and I couldn't get past writing the opening greeting. I couldn't think of anything to say.

Please forgive me. I know that the above had absolutely nothing to do with the original post. I do know that rehab, love, and support work for most people. It just doesn't work in my aunt's case.

I hear you, Jessica.  My mother is a drug counselor and works for a mathodone clinic.  Oh, the stories she tells!
And that's why there's so much gray area when it comes to drug treatment.
"Free will" versus "for your own good" covers a lot of the philosophical struggle. The addict doesn't just hurt himself or herself, the addicts family suffers too.  People who say, "well it's your life, it's your business if you wanna wreck it with dope," often pause when you say, "do you have the right to deprive your children of a health and happiness?, do you have the right to cause your loved ones anguish?"  It is usally conservatives who say, "You don't have a right to take my tax money because you won't take care of yourself, and you don't have a right to menace people begging on the street."  I have my quarrels, but they do have a point.
It's all in the the eternal questions of the individual versus society.

I am convinced it does more harm than good to treat addicts like criminals--even recalcitrant ones.  Now, addicts frequently commit crimes to get their drugs, and that's where I draw the line.  If you commit assault, larceny, burglary, or fraud to get drugs, you should have to pay the penalty for the crime.  The drug problem should be parsed from the crime at sentencing.  The person should be treated for drug addiction while incarcerated, but not incarcerated for drug addiction.

If prisons in America are anything like some of the ones in the U.K the addict can probably get hold of the drugs easier there than anywhere else !

I have a friend who is a recovered addict and he said the time he quit for good was when he went into rehab in a different area.He had all the support and councelling he would have had in his home town but the major difference was that he was away from all the 'friends' and influences.I also knew a guy who came out of prison and went straight back onto heroin because he moved back to the same house and fell straight back in with the same crowd. 

I do agree with you Max, but how do you help someone who doesn't want help? How do you handle someone who has had all the best treatments around (different rehabs, methadone, loved ones support, etc.) and yet still remain addicted to it?

I speak from experience on this. My aunt was, and still is, addicted. Over the past 14 years, she has had every treatment known to man. Forgive me if I ramble after this, but it still hurts, ya know?


It's hard to love and trust someone who has let you down so many times in the past. It's hard to give them your support when they've let you down so many times before. It's hard to forgive someone who has done so much damage to your family. I tried to sit down and write her a letter when my son was born and I couldn't get past writing the opening greeting. I couldn't think of anything to say.

Please forgive me. I know that the above had absolutely nothing to do with the original post. I do know that rehab, love, and support work for most people. It just doesn't work in my aunt's case.



I hear ya loud and clear. Been there, done that. Only in my case, it wasn't drugs as it was alcohol (just as bad). And that was my first husband. After trying to get him help (a few rehab centers), I gave up and left him.




Cat

Religion does work for some people, as much as I don't like to admit it. My mother is bipolar and was a nurse for most of her life. She has never been addicted to one drug in particular, she was the type who didn't care what it was as long as it was mood-altering. She had some serious mental problems and probably shouldn't have chosen a career where you're around a multitude of drugs at all times. Needless to say, she got hooked on pills and ended up losing her license (and this was many years ago and I wasn't living with her). She moved in with some "friends" and became a full-fledged druggie before long. Luckily, I guess, part of her knew better and she ended up moving in with her sister and got off the drugs with a few minor relapses, and got on some medication for bipolarism. Eventually she got into religion and ended up getting off even her psychiatric perscriptions and she's doing better now than she ever was before because something about the religious aspect changed her attitude completely. She moved away from all her old influences and now she is content to flip burgers and read books. Now she's a Charles Dickens addict.

Religion does work for some people, as much as I don't like to admit it. My mother is bipolar and was a nurse for most of her life. She has never been addicted to one drug in particular, she was the type who didn't care what it was as long as it was mood-altering. She had some serious mental problems and probably shouldn't have chosen a career where you're around a multitude of drugs at all times. Needless to say, she got hooked on pills and ended up losing her license (and this was many years ago and I wasn't living with her). She moved in with some "friends" and became a full-fledged druggie before long. Luckily, I guess, part of her knew better and she ended up moving in with her sister and got off the drugs with a few minor relapses, and got on some medication for bipolarism. Eventually she got into religion and ended up getting off even her psychiatric perscriptions and she's doing better now than she ever was before because something about the religious aspect changed her attitude completely. She moved away from all her old influences and now she is content to flip burgers and read books. Now she's a Charles Dickens addict.

Better addicted to Dickens than addicted to dope!  The 12-step program developed by AA is about surrendering to a "higher power."  It's not necessarily religious, but "let go, let God" does work for millions of people.  I don't have contempt for religion itself, just people who make their religion your business and demonstrate gross hypocrisy.

I have always been a believer in giving first time drug users a break if they go in for treatment.  It is only the sellers, manufacturers and distributors that I feel should "have the book thrown at them".

And at the same time, if somebody refuses to "get off the dope", then there should be some form of long-term "semi-incarceration" available.  The problem is that a lot of addicts refuse to accept responsibility for themselves, or anything else.  And in this action, they feel free to do anything they want.  Steal for drug money, prostitute themselves, steal from family, beat spouses/friends/relatives, sponge off the welfare system, etc.

I have lived and worked with addicts, and it is never fun.  Probably 85-90% of those in LA homeless shelters are addicts of one form or another.  Almost none of them work, and a lot engage in illegal activity to support their habbit.  And as long as they get free food and shelter, they will live like that for the rest of their lives (and a lot of them do).

President Nixon initiated the "Drug Rehab" system in this country.  But sadly, it has become a revolving-door system.  Do drugs, get busted, enter rehab, do drugs, get busted, etc etc etc.  Only the few people that really want to change their lives make it.  The others are simply doing something ordered by the court, and go back to drugs at the first chance they get.

First of all, I don't think drug users should all be lumped together in one category.  There are recreational marijuana smokers, there are thugs and there are medicinal marijuana users, there are people who get hooked on PRESCRIBED LEGITIMATE pain killers...

I also don't think drug users in general are treated like criminals.  If I were to use drugs in the privacy of my own home, chances are very high that nobody would ever bother me.  Drug users usually get arrested because they are causing some type of disturbance.  Cops don't just show up at homes randomly, knock on doors and ask "Are you on drugs?"

Cops do go after dealers, which they need to do in order to get the sh!t off the streets, preventing MORE addicts.

Religion does work for some people, as much as I don't like to admit it. My mother is bipolar and was a nurse for most of her life. She has never been addicted to one drug in particular, she was the type who didn't care what it was as long as it was mood-altering. She had some serious mental problems and probably shouldn't have chosen a career where you're around a multitude of drugs at all times. Needless to say, she got hooked on pills and ended up losing her license (and this was many years ago and I wasn't living with her). She moved in with some "friends" and became a full-fledged druggie before long. Luckily, I guess, part of her knew better and she ended up moving in with her sister and got off the drugs with a few minor relapses, and got on some medication for bipolarism. Eventually she got into religion and ended up getting off even her psychiatric perscriptions and she's doing better now than she ever was before because something about the religious aspect changed her attitude completely. She moved away from all her old influences and now she is content to flip burgers and read books. Now she's a Charles Dickens addict.
At the end of the day any kind of addict has that kind of personality, an addictive personality and will always have something they hook onto.Quite a big majority of the people I met through voluteer work ended up with another 'addiction' which ranged from baking cakes to being a shopaholic ! 

First of all, I don't think drug users should all be lumped together in one category.  There are recreational marijuana smokers, there are thugs and there are medicinal marijuana users, there are people who get hooked on PRESCRIBED LEGITIMATE pain killers...

I also don't think drug users in general are treated like criminals.  If I were to use drugs in the privacy of my own home, chances are very high that nobody would ever bother me.  Drug users usually get arrested because they are causing some type of disturbance.  Cops don't just show up at homes randomly, knock on doors and ask "Are you on drugs?"

Cops do go after dealers, which they need to do in order to get the sh!t off the streets, preventing MORE addicts.


Well, the only "drug users" I place in a seperate category are the prescription drug users, who got addicted through carelessness (or doctor neglect).  This has happened to a lot of people, including Carrie Fisher, Melanie Griffith, and Rush Limbaugh.  In these cases the addiction is not due to a "desire to get high", but instead is largely an accident.  These are the cases where I feel light sentences are called for.  Drug Rehab should be a requirement though, to break the cycle of addiction.

However, I reject "recreational marijuanna users" as a classification.  If you use a drug (or alcohol) to get high, you are a user of that drug.  Plain and simple, cut and dry.  NA teaches people in it's program "there is no drug that is better or worse then any other".  To them, pot is as bad as crack, which is as bad as heroin.  Drug abuse is drug abuse, and there is no excuse.  There is only the need to get help.

Well, the only "drug users" I place in a seperate category are the prescription drug users, who got addicted through carelessness (or doctor neglect).  This has happened to a lot of people, including Carrie Fisher, Melanie Griffith, and Rush Limbaugh.  In these cases the addiction is not due to a "desire to get high", but instead is largely an accident.  These are the cases where I feel light sentences are called for.  Drug Rehab should be a requirement though, to break the cycle of addiction.

However, I reject "recreational marijuanna users" as a classification.  If you use a drug (or alcohol) to get high, you are a user of that drug.  Plain and simple, cut and dry.  NA teaches people in it's program "there is no drug that is better or worse then any other".  To them, pot is as bad as crack, which is as bad as heroin.  Drug abuse is drug abuse, and there is no excuse.  There is only the need to get help.


I agree with your standpoint that they all need help breaking their addictions.  However, I don't agree from a criminal standpoint.  What I mean is, if someone smokes a joint every once in awhile inside their own home and doesn't bother anyone else, I don't see why they should be placed in jail??

The point I was trying to make is that the ones who get arrested and end up in jail are usually the ones who have caused some disturbance, not just because they happened to use a drug.

Well, the only "drug users" I place in a seperate category are the prescription drug users, who got addicted through carelessness (or doctor neglect).  This has happened to a lot of people, including Carrie Fisher, Melanie Griffith, and Rush Limbaugh.  In these cases the addiction is not due to a "desire to get high", but instead is largely an accident.  These are the cases where I feel light sentences are called for.  Drug Rehab should be a requirement though, to break the cycle of addiction.

However, I reject "recreational marijuanna users" as a classification.  If you use a drug (or alcohol) to get high, you are a user of that drug.  Plain and simple, cut and dry.  NA teaches people in it's program "there is no drug that is better or worse then any other".  To them, pot is as bad as crack, which is as bad as heroin.  Drug abuse is drug abuse, and there is no excuse.  There is only the need to get help.

I think in NA and AA the philosophy is about breaking addiction, not replacing one with another.  It's flat out wrong to say any drug is like any other drug regarding chemistry or effects.  Freebasing cocaine and smoking marijuana are far different in every way, including the nature of the addiction.  However, I have observed the substance abuser-type often craves to change his consciousness by any means necessary.  I know a certain fellow who smokes pot at least twice a day and abuses as mnay prescription drugs as he can grab.

I find I can enjoy a beer or a joint, but I don't crave either substance.  I never got into psychedelics (which are non-addictive, though very abusable) because of my history of depression.  Coke, heroin, speed, and crap like that never had any appeal to me at all.  However, I'm a sugar slave and I must have my ice cream in the evening!  If I start eating Haagen-Dazs before noon, I'll admit I have a problem.  Coffee, too, I must have my coffee!

The alcoholics I know describe drinking as feeling like mother and home.  They feel incomplete without alcohol, and rectitude about the state of inebriation.  It's one of the hardest addictions to break.  I've seen several people close to me get on and fall of the wagon for years.
If you have a substance abuse problem, you're not doing yourself any good by switching from booze to pot.  Pot, instead of liquor, becomes the preoccupation of your daily living, and your "crutch" in the walk of life.  In that sense druag abuse is drug abuse, however, you don't get hepatitis from passing around a joint.

There should be different laws depending on the drug and the situation.  Like you can drink in public, but you can't drive.  Or you can get drunk and smoke a joint in your own house, but not if you have kids.  And certain drugs should just be illegal to use anytime.

What really gets me p*ssed off is parents who continue in their drug and/or alcohol addiction while pregnant. I truly wonder if addicted mothers are even able to comprehend that their child will feel the effects of their addiction much less CARE...And I know how d@mn LUCKY I am not to have full-blown fetal alcohol syndrome..My intelligence is intact but I can't do things like ride a bike because minimal brain damage affects my balance somewhat. But when I see a kid with FAS who can't read,write,do arithmetic,even PLAY like other kids...it makes me see RED! My mom got help after years and years of denial but it was too late...she died at age 63 of congestive heart failure and problems related to alcohol and prescription drug abuse. And I'm still angry that my parents' addictions were the reason why DYFS took custody away from them. If you are an addict...GET HELP and STICK WITH THE TREATMENT.

And now for the cynical side.  I worked in town and everyday would see the people outside the methadone
center lining up for their meds.  There were a lot of them, which meant there were a lot of drugs being dispensed.
The people didn't have to attend therapy or anything, they just showed up everyday for their meds.  Now these
meds have to be purchased from the drug companies and I bet they make a pretty penny on that government
contract.  See what I said about that cynical side.....

If your an addict, of course you dont make good decisions.  Your addicted to the drug, and you have to have it.  But on the other hand if you force some people to get treatment you have lawyers screaming about there civil liberties.  At least if they have kids, maybe you can get them locked up and force them into a program, but otherwise unless they actually get caught commit a violent crime, theres not a lot you can do.

At least if they have kids, maybe you can get them locked up and force them into a program, but otherwise unless they actually get caught commit a violent crime, theres not a lot you can do.


You can't lock a junkie up and force them into a program just because they have kids. The only way to lock them up is if they are caught committing a crime(violent or not).

Take the kids from them and maybe that will be a wake up call for them (but I doubt it)



And now for the cynical side. I worked in town and everyday would see the people outside the methadone
center lining up for their meds. There were a lot of them, which meant there were a lot of drugs being dispensed.
The people didn't have to attend therapy or anything, they just showed up everyday for their meds. Now these
meds have to be purchased from the drug companies and I bet they make a pretty penny on that government
contract. See what I said about that cynical side.....



the clinic here doesn't really work, here they let the junkies take home a supply of methadone and they sell each dose cheaper then drugs to other junkies that can't afford other drugs, they use that money for the drugs that they want. or some of the junkies take the methadone and still continue taking other drugs.

It was sad for me as a child to see my mother throw her life down the drain with booze and pills...I just cannot understand why,rather than get psychiatric help,she would self-medicate with enormous amounts of alcoholic beverages...AND pills....and 2 packs a day of cigarettes...Gawd,she IS my mom...I honestly wish she would have allowed herself to get sober...and have a better life for herself. Even if I could not be with her. It makes me sad that she died the way she did.

It was sad for me as a child to see my mother throw her life down the drain with booze and pills...I just cannot understand why,rather than get psychiatric help,she would self-medicate with enormous amounts of alcoholic beverages...AND pills....and 2 packs a day of cigarettes...Gawd,she IS my mom...I honestly wish she would have allowed herself to get sober...and have a better life for herself. Even if I could not be with her. It makes me sad that she died the way she did.


I think most people either feel they don't need help, or they feel they can't be helped... I for one am not the type who could ever go to counseling or psychiatrists, etc. because I am too stubborn and I know they won't work for me.  I'm sure drug users often feel the same way.

You can't lock a junkie up and force them into a program just because they have kids. The only way to lock them up is if they are caught committing a crime(violent or not).

Take the kids from them and maybe that will be a wake up call for them (but I doubt it)



the clinic here doesn't really work, here they let the junkies take home a supply of methadone and they sell each dose cheaper then drugs to other junkies that can't afford other drugs, they use that money for the drugs that they want. or some of the junkies take the methadone and still continue taking other drugs.


I'm talking about child endangerment.  If they are putting their kids at risk you might at least have a chance to force them to get some help.