Are there pro-choice people here who think Roe v Wade was a bad decision?  Some pro-choice people think that the legal decision was bad, even if they agree with the result.  I heard a guy say that a good law based on a bad argument is dangerous precident.  What do you think?

Are there pro-choice people here who think Roe v Wade was a bad decision?  Some pro-choice people think that the legal decision was bad, even if they agree with the result.  I heard a guy say that a good law based on a bad argument is dangerous precident.  What do you think?


I am a very moderate pro-choice person who has a lot of respect for a lot of pro-life people.  But, yes, inmho, Roe v Wade was a bad decision.  Abortion seems to be one of the areas that the Tenth Amendment says should be decided by states, not the federal government.  Before Roe v Wade, abortion was legal in some states and illegal in some states.  If Roe v Wade were overturned, abortions would most likely be legal in all blue states and some red states.  Utah and a few other states might make most abortions illegal, but I think all states would make them legal in cases of rape or danger to a mother's health.

I am a very moderate pro-choice person who has a lot of respect for a lot of pro-life people.  But, yes, inmho, Roe v Wade was a bad decision.  Abortion seems to be one of the areas that the Tenth Amendment says should be decided by states, not the federal government.  Before Roe v Wade, abortion was legal in some states and illegal in some states.  If Roe v Wade were overturned, abortions would most likely be legal in all blue states and some red states.  Utah and a few other states might make most abortions illegal, but I think all states would make them legal in cases of rape or danger to a mother's health.


I disagree.  Roe V Wade is based on the constitutional right to privacy, which, since it includes papers and affects, must include ones body.  Constitutional rights should not be determined by the whims (and politics) of state legislatures.

No it's not.  When an abortion is done, the fetus is not able to feel pain.


You mean...when CERTAIN abortions are performed.

You telling me that a fetus does not feel pain on a partial birth abortion.

Well if you are, let me come frank out and say, this time you ARE wrong.

I disagree.  Roe V Wade is based on the constitutional right to privacy, which, since it includes papers and affects, must include ones body.  Constitutional rights should not be determined by the whims (and politics) of state legislatures.


And the body of the victem? where's that right?

Roe V Wade is based on the constitutional right to privacy, which, since it includes papers and affects, must include ones body.  Constitutional rights should not be determined by the whims (and politics) of state legislatures.


The word "privacy" does not appear in the Constitution.  I know that some people interpret the Ninth Amendment to establish a right to privacy, but that is a stretch, especially if it does not apply to the privacy of the unborn child.

State legislatures pass laws covering education, taxation and a lot of other significant issues.  Why don't you trust them with abortion legislation?

My broccoli screams in agony when I eat it.

I guess that makes me a murdiddilyurderer as well.


You sure that's broccoli? Cause mine doesn't scream.

http://www.monitorpop.com/cornelius_old/pictures.html

You sure that's broccoli? Cause mine doesn't scream.

http://www.monitorpop.com/cornelius_old/pictures.html


the way my hubby likes his steak, I would swear that it still moos on his plate  :o

Comparing food to human life....sick ::)

Comparing food to human life....sick ::)



Hey at least mine was a living breathing animal at one time.
actually I forgot what thread we were on, and was following the post above.

Comparing food to human life....sick ::)



Lighten up man. This thread is 20 pages long. The last three are basically the same argument over, and over, and over. No one is actually comparing a baby to an animal. It's called a joke, look into it :)

Lighten up man. This thread is 20 pages long. The last three are basically the same argument over, and over, and over
Over and over and over, same with the issue at large!
::)

Yep, I agree to disagree ::)

No, I was not speaking of partial birth abortions, I was speaking of 99% of them.  Even a majority of pro-choice people think partial birth abortions are wrong in MOST situations.

Why use the anti-choice term "partial birth abortion" for the medical term "dilation and extraction"?  Why let them take the terms out of medicine and into the hysterical din of their religious zealotry?

I wonder how many people who are not religious also think fetuses should be protected.  There must be some.  We always think its only religious zealots, but that doesn't make sense to me that they would be the only people who think like that.

No, I was not speaking of partial birth abortions, I was speaking of 99% of them.  Even a majority of pro-choice people think partial birth abortions are wrong in MOST situations.


99% of them since 1972?  Or 99% of the ones that take place today?  You always give me greif about not being 110% accurate on what I point out, well it goes both ways.

I wonder how many people who are not religious also think fetuses should be protected.  There must be some.  We always think its only religious zealots, but that doesn't make sense to me that they would be the only people who think like that.


Not everyone who believes in the rights of the unborn is religious, and not everyone who does not believe in the rights of the unborn is unreligious.  Some God loving fearing people believe that the unborn have no rights and if someone wants to kill em, kill em. Some people who don't believe in God believe in the rights of the unborn, and say no, don't kill em.

I wonder how many people who are not religious also think fetuses should be protected.  There must be some.  We always think its only religious zealots, but that doesn't make sense to me that they would be the only people who think like that.

As I outlined on the other thread concerning abortion, the anti-choice position is tied in with the strategy of the Republican party, which entails to things:
1. Corporate control
2. Religious authority
The reason the Republicans bought the abortion issue from the Christian Right is to get people to vote against their economic interests.  If your religious convictions dictate abortion is murder, and the Republicans are the party against abortion, maybe you'll vote for them even if their economic policies will hurt you.  If the party platform emphasizes the abortion issue and keeps the truth about their plans to raise payroll taxes hidden, you'll vote Republican without understanding the nature of the GOP.
Whenever "conservatives" talk about the good old days, they don't talk about 1971, before Roe v. Wade passed.  They talk about 1955, before the Civil Rights movement.  Lately, their frame of reference seems to be 1928, before the New Deal, or even 1898, before the anti-trust legislation.  This is the push for corporate control over absolutely everything.
On the Christian Right side of reaction, the good old days are not decades ago, they are centuries ago.  The Christian Right yearns for the days before Darwin and Marx gave divine law a run for its money.  Some on the Christian Right have alluded to the French revolution being a problem because people were questioning the authority of the God-Government complex.  They conveniently ignore the influence of Locke, Voltaire, and Montesquieu upon our own Founding Fathers.  The more extreme in Christian Right disparage the Enlightenment itself, ignoring a minor figure in the history of Protestantism, Martin Luther.
The emphasis is on religious authority---not religious virtue, charity, or humility.  Those principles are only for the dopes who follow religious authority, not religious authority itself.  It's always been thus and thats, uh, why people get so skeptical to begin with.
Religious authority dovetails nicely with corporate control.  Corporatism--which is what Mussolini said Fascism should more appropriately be called--is a kind of religion.  It asks people to accept injustice as natural law, and not question why injustice exists.  Corporatism requires people to obey authority and not make authority accountable for its hypocrisy and failures.  So, you see, the power-hungry among religious leader and the power-hungry among business leaders have embraced in the Republican party and are colluding for the same nefarious purposes.
Here endeth the lesson.

I didn't think I would get a lesson or a ovious answer like not everybody is religious.  But thanks to everyone for the incite. 

And the body of the victem? where's that right?


As the Bush administration has argued, and as the courts have decided, only citizens are shielded by the Constitution.  Certainly, the unborn are not citizens, whatever they are.

The word "privacy" does not appear in the Constitution.  I know that some people interpret the Ninth Amendment to establish a right to privacy, but that is a stretch, especially if it does not apply to the privacy of the unborn child.

State legislatures pass laws covering education, taxation and a lot of other significant issues.  Why don't you trust them with abortion legislation?


The 9th has nothing to do with it.  "The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny...others retained by the people."

Article IV is the "privacy" amendment, and uses the words "secure in their PERSONS, houses, papers and effects..."  To be secuse in my person means that the government can't tell me what to do with my own body.  Being stoned on pot isn't, in itself a crime.  Possessing a controlled substance is.

Its not a matter of trust.  Issues not covered in the Constitution are left to the states, Article X "THe powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states repectively, or to the people."  And by the way, when this was written there were NO direct Federal taxes on the people, just state and local taxes.

The 9th has nothing to do with it. "The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny...others retained by the people."

Article IV is the "privacy" amendment, and uses the words "secure in their PERSONS, houses, papers and effects..." To be secuse in my person means that the government can't tell me what to do with my own body. Being stoned on pot isn't, in itself a crime. Possessing a controlled substance is.

Its not a matter of trust. Issues not covered in the Constitution are left to the states, Article X "THe powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states repectively, or to the people." And by the way, when this was written there were NO direct Federal taxes on the people, just state and local taxes.


I know there has to be some stabilty and you can't just rewrite the Constitution every 10 years, but it seems like sometimes society needs to think about things fresh and not necessarily worry about what people intended in the past.  The Fourth amendment probably wasn't supposed to deal with abortion, so maybe we shouldn't worry about that.  We should just decide it now.  Like for example when they wrote the Constitution they didn't intend for women and black people to vote in the first place, which is why they needed amendments.  We should use amendments to show what society thinks is important NOW and we should worry less about what people wanted back then. 

I know people don't agree on what is the right answer, but that's why there should be debate and discussion.  But it should be respectful, intelligent discussion, or it will just go on and on in circles (like this thread sometimes does), and the whole issue will keep depending on who is on the Supreme Court.  I don't think it would matter (as much) who was on the Supreme Court if society had been talking about this issue more intelligently and respectfully for the last 30 years.  For example, there will always be people who hate women and black people, but I don't think we don't worry (so much) about the Supreme Court overturning their right to vote because nowadays most intelligent people agree that this is should be a right.  I think that is becuase a lot of people made intelligent respectful arguments for it, not just angry people screaming "you woman-hating chauvanist pigs and racist crackers better give us the right to vote".  It is fine to be angry.  I think Gandi and King were probably very angry.  But they used it in a constructive way instead of just trying to make someone the enemy.

I know there has to be some stabilty and you can't just rewrite the Constitution every 10 years, but it seems like sometimes society needs to think about things fresh and not necessarily worry about what people intended in the past.  The Fourth amendment probably wasn't supposed to deal with abortion, so maybe we shouldn't worry about that.  We should just decide it now.  Like for example when they wrote the Constitution they didn't intend for women and black people to vote in the first place, which is why they needed amendments.  We should use amendments to show what society thinks is important NOW and we should worry less about what people wanted back then. 

I know people don't agree on what is the right answer, but that's why there should be debate and discussion.  But it should be respectful, intelligent discussion, or it will just go on and on in circles (like this thread sometimes does), and the whole issue will keep depending on who is on the Supreme Court.  I don't think it would matter (as much) who was on the Supreme Court if society had been talking about this issue more intelligently and respectfully for the last 30 years.  For example, there will always be people who hate women and black people, but I don't think we don't worry (so much) about the Supreme Court overturning their right to vote because nowadays most intelligent people agree that this is should be a right.  I think that is becuase a lot of people made intelligent respectful arguments for it, not just angry people screaming "you woman-hating chauvanist pigs and racist crackers better give us the right to vote".  It is fine to be angry.  I think Gandi and King were probably very angry.  But they used it in a constructive way instead of just trying to make someone the enemy.


Actually, the Constitution is totally silent re who should have the right to vote, and left that up to the states.  Before the Constitution was ammended in 1920, several states had granted women the vote.  The amendment  made it illegal to deprive women of the vote.  States still have some say, as in Florida released felons can't vote without dispensation from the governor, while in VT they asre restored to full citizenship (in most cases).

This is probably the most divisive question in politics today, and I think a case can be made on both sides on moral and religious grounds.  The problem is that there is little room for compromise.  But, one side wants to force its views on everyone while the other supports the individual's right to chose.

Well, I don't think its that much more divisive than slavery and there was no room for compromise there either.  People used to say it was just a property rights issue.  People made that argument easily.  Africans weren't protected under the US Constitution, and if you bought a slave, it was your property.  I have a right to my property that I bought legally, people would say.  But we got past the slavery issue.

As the Bush administration has argued, and as the courts have decided, only citizens are shielded by the Constitution.  Certainly, the unborn are not citizens, whatever they are.


Therefore if an illegal alien came to this country, he or she, who is NOT a citizen should not be protected by the constitution?

Well, according to the CDC, Alan Guttmacher Institute & NHO, it's actually LESS THAN 1% of total abortions that are "partial birth".  Some other interesting statistics I found:  almost 1/2 of the abortions performed each year (worldwide) are illegally performed, the US accounts for less than 2%.




and let me ask again....today or 1972?

Well, I don't think its that much more divisive than slavery and there was no room for compromise there either.  People used to say it was just a property rights issue.  People made that argument easily.  Africans weren't protected under the US Constitution, and if you bought a slave, it was your property.  I have a right to my property that I bought legally, people would say.  But we got past the slavery issue.


Thank God the slavery issue was put to an obilivion back when it was, in todays society it would be very difficult.

Ever hear of your no better than anybody else? Ever hear of you got no more right to live than anybody else? Ever hear of appreciating your chance and opportunity rather than taking it for granted? Ever hear of given a chance period?
I've been thru some HORRIBLE stuff at the hands of foster parents...Why would you wish crap like abuse on anyone? Foster care here in NJ is a JOKE. Many foster parents are in it for the MONEY here in the Garden State. Explain to me how someone getting thrown VIOLENTLY on the floor for making one little mistake is 'discipline' and why someone living in a home where that stuff goes on ALL THE TIME should be 'appreciative' of the 'chance' they SUPPOSEDLY got...and if one tells a caseworker they are being abused....look out for there is hell to pay...

Kill me or make go through some adversity.

I'll take the latter, not everything in life is easy, nor supposed to be that way.
I have to live with the effects of what was done to me...which is NOT easy and does not'go away with time and counseling'...I have a SERIOUS MENTAL ILLNESS in part due to minimal brain damage in utero because my mother boozed,drugged,and lived it up...with not ONE thought of who was growing inside her...I also inherited my COPD from her...at least the tendency for it(second-hand smoke actually brought it on)

Did YOU ever experience being UNLOVED and UNWANTED...You probably grew up with at least ONE parent who loved you...some of us aren't so fortunate.

Thank God the slavery issue was put to an obilivion back when it was, in todays society it would be very difficult.


But I don't think it was put to rest by the self-righteous Bible-thumpers who went around screaming at slaveowners that they were murderers, even though they could oviosly make a good case for that.  I think it was put to rest by people sticking by there convictions and making intelligent arguments to people's values.  It takes two sides to make an argument, and only one side to end it.  It doesn't matter if you call it debate or argument or whatever, two people can disagree respectfully and try to understand each other and challenge each others ideas, or they can be self-righteous and bicker and not accomplish anything exept sooth there fragile ego.

This is probably the most divisive question in politics today, and I think a case can be made on both sides on moral and religious grounds. The problem is that there is little room for compromise. But, one side wants to force its views on everyone while the other supports the individual's right to chose.


I think theres big problems on both sides of the issue, at least the way it is talked about in public most of the time.  On one side you hear too much 'murderer' crap and on the other side you hear too much 'you want to control women' crap.  Oviosly, most pro-choicers are not heartless sluts who want to use abortion as birth control after the fact, and oviosly most pro-lifers are not woman haters who want to control them. There are people who HONESTLY believe fetuses are worth protecting.  To me, it's not really honest to say its just about controling your own body, not when another' being' is involved.  If you think that being should have rights or not is a seperate issue.  Thats the real point that people should discuss, I think.

I've been thru some HORRIBLE stuff at the hands of foster parents...Why would you wish crap like abuse on anyone? Foster care here in NJ is a JOKE. Many foster parents are in it for the MONEY here in the Garden State. Explain to me how someone getting thrown VIOLENTLY on the floor for making one little mistake is 'discipline' and why someone living in a home where that stuff goes on ALL THE TIME should be 'appreciative' of the 'chance' they SUPPOSEDLY got...and if one tells a caseworker they are being abused....look out for there is hell to pay...


I don't wish for anything, anything at all and that includes abuse  upon anyone. I would not want abuse on anyone. However I think love, not homocide is the answer to the abuse the problem.  Love the kids, or abort them forget about them and they go down in history as unloved and forgotten.  I do not and will not accept that.

I have to live with the effects of what was done to me...which is NOT easy and does not'go away with time and counseling'...I have a SERIOUS MENTAL ILLNESS in part due to minimal brain damage in utero because my mother boozed,drugged,and lived it up...with not ONE thought of who was growing inside her...I also inherited my COPD from her...at least the tendency for it(second-hand smoke actually brought it on)

Did YOU ever experience being UNLOVED and UNWANTED...You probably grew up with at least ONE parent who loved you...some of us aren't so fortunate.


I get a kick out of you, I really do. You think because I love other people, and want to live my life for God that my life has been all fine and dandy and everything has been a cake walk for me.

Guess again, my life has handed me a lot of s h i t, a whole lot.  You wanna talk about Depression?  Try having one week without crying about something that happened to you seven years ago, I know I can't.  Try having one day go by when you don't get mad, sad, or just plain bitter about the day your life pretty much ended, and know d a m n good and well that you ain't never getting over it, so might as well accept it till the day you die, which at age 20 means a long F'N time.

Unloved?  You bet your bottom dollar.  Unwanted?  Good guess.

I care about myself and other people, I want things to be better, not never were.

But I don't think it was put to rest by the self-righteous Bible-thumpers who went around screaming at slaveowners that they were murderers, even though they could oviosly make a good case for that.  I think it was put to rest by people sticking by there convictions and making intelligent arguments to people's values.  It takes two sides to make an argument, and only one side to end it.  It doesn't matter if you call it debate or argument or whatever, two people can disagree respectfully and try to understand each other and challenge each others ideas, or they can be self-righteous and bicker and not accomplish anything exept sooth there fragile ego.


That's the thing about it though. Slavery is a sickening, evil, wrong thing. It should not be respected.

That's the thing about it though. Slavery is a sickening, evil, wrong thing. It should not be respected.


There's a difference between respecting something and discussing it respectfully.  You know that.

There's a difference between respecting something and discussing it respectfully.  You know that.


yeah I do.

Cool then.

They don't want to hear about those women who care more about making themselves "feel good" or those to whom another pregnancy means nothing more than an increase in their monthly check. They say it's all "God's Will"....well, if that's the kind of "God" they worship, I want no part of it.  Sure, in a perfect world, there would be no abuse, no neglect, no drug abuse, no abortion, no crime.....but we all know that we don't live in a perfect world and never will.....at least those of us who are grounded in reality



I'm not argueing with you, I just don't understand this point.  It seems like you mean choice would make for less kids born to bad abusive mothers, but these women you are talking about are not the women who will get abortions, right?

But, don't you see, most people who are anti-choice.....

Anti-choice?  You listen to NARAL to much.

But, don't you see, most people who are anti-choice don't give a rat's azz about what happens to you AFTER you're born.  They don't want to hear about those women who care more about making themselves "feel good" or those to whom another pregnancy means nothing more than an increase in their monthly check.  They say it's all "God's Will"....well, if that's the kind of "God" they worship, I want no part of it.  Sure, in a perfect world, there would be no abuse, no neglect, no drug abuse, no abortion, no crime.....but we all know that we don't live in a perfect world and never will.....at least those of us who are grounded in reality.

I feel for anyone who has ever been abused in any way, shape or form because I've been there myself.  Luckily, what I've been through in my life has left no physical damage.....psychological for sure, but no "visible" scars.


Call me whatever you want, Anit-choice, or what I really am Anti-unecessary homocide.  I do care what happens to them after they are born.  I could give a s h i t less about $$ and I know a lot of people who are in the same boat as me. 

You wanna go back to the pointing fingers deal? Fine.  What about the girl who has an abortion and feels guilty about it afterwards? Where are the pro-choice people to help her get through her guilt?  Huh? Where are they?  I'll tell you where, Long gone out the door or right there ready to make the girl feel stupid for having a heart about what she did.

Seen that happen a heck of a lot more than so called Planned Parent Hood counseling.

Pointing fingers?  Who the heck do you think are causing some of these girls to feel guilty?  Is it the pro-choice people who are calling them "murderers"?  Is it the pro-choice people who are telling them how "wrong" they are for having an abortion?  It's certainly not the pro-life people telling her that her CHOICE was okay.  I don't know a single pro-choice person who would not understand a girl regretting her choice, but I know quite a few pro-life people who would make her feel guilty for what she had done.  I've seen (and heard) it first hand.  People called me a murderer simply for visiting a Planned Parenthood clinic.....even when I WASN'T pregnant - I had gone there with a friend simply to get birth control.....and they certainly weren't pro-choice people.  So don't tell me it's the pro-choice people who are making women feel guilty for what they chose to do.  And, if you've ever been with someone who's had an abortion, every clinic I've been to DOES offer counselling.....even months after the abortion is done.


You don't know a SINGLE pro choice person, not one single one, congratualations on knowing the smaller portion of them.

and secondly....DUH.  Pro life people believe abortion is wrong, they believe it is evil.  Stop and think for a second here, OF COURSE we want them to feel guilty about doing something evil. We want them to feel guilty and realize what they did was not right, so that way they can speak out against what they did, stand up and say to other young women, This is not the path to take.  Redemption, Amen to Redemption.  What we're not, and I mean looking for is, "it's 110% fine what you did, you should not feel bad about it".  That to pro-choice people is the only way to go about counseling, if and that's a big if they offer anything at all.

Thirdly what I was saying before and what I'm saying now is that the pro choice people aren't there to help the girl after she realizes what she's done.  They say, "GET OVER IT" slam the door in her face and move on to whoever is next in line.  There main motive is to make what they stand for look good and if the girl needs counseling because people hold something against her, then great they give her counseling. If she needs counseling because she feels sorry for herself, great they give her counseling. If she needs counseling because she feels guilty, or because she's sad about not giving the baby life, screw her, it doesn't help there cause.  The "majority"  of Pro choice people for you.

Yes I think a woman has the RIGHT TO CHOOSE...

and BTW yes a lot of kids who are unwanted by their own parents end up in State care...and in foster homes where they are maimed(psychologically as well as physically)or even ADOPTIVE homes that abuse them...here in NJ there have been a number of cases where that has happened...and DYFS (Division of Youth and Family Services)has not done a d@mn thing about it....

And yes I still carry the scars..physically as well as emotionally. I still cry when I think of what happened to me...it was so bad it's IMPOSSIBLE to completely forget...and yes I have recieved counseling...but no amount of counseling or meds has stopped the nightmares I have where I wake up with my heart pounding wanting to scream and it does not come out..I still am plagued by head and neck pain from being physically abused...I am VERY WARY and SUSPICIOUS even with those people I know...I find it VERY hard to trust ANYONE. It has gotten somewhat better but yes it's still there...

Yes I think a woman has the RIGHT TO CHOOSE...

and BTW yes a lot of kids who are unwanted by their own parents end up in State care...and in foster homes where they are maimed(psychologically as well as physically)or even ADOPTIVE homes that abuse them...here in NJ there have been a number of cases where that has happened...and DYFS (Division of Youth and Family Services)has not done a d@mn thing about it....

And yes I still carry the scars..physically as well as emotionally. I still cry when I think of what happened to me...it was so bad it's IMPOSSIBLE to completely forget...and yes I have recieved counseling...but no amount of counseling or meds has stopped the nightmares I have where I wake up with my heart pounding wanting to scream and it does not come out..I still am plagued by head and neck pain from being physically abused...I am VERY WARY and SUSPICIOUS even with those people I know...I find it VERY hard to trust ANYONE. It has gotten somewhat better but yes it's still there...


So when it comes down to it your answer is, you wish you were never born and your better off dead?

Is that what your saying?

Anti-choice?  You listen to NARAL to much.

I don't know NARAL from Adam, but if you decree all women pregnant must remain pregnant, "anti-choice" is fair enough.  I'm not "pro-abortion," I am pro-abortion rights.  Why not say you're "anti-abortion rights"?  I think the Right has forfeited its credibility when it comes to "life."
You must admit American Conservatives have no other life-affirming positions outside the so-called "pro-life" position on the abortion issue.

Harmonica wrote
So when it comes down to it your answer is, you wish you were never born and your better off dead?
Is that what your saying?
For chrissake this has gone on long enough!  Look up the difference between the pronoun and the contraction.  Learn it, know it, practice it!
::)

I don't know NARAL from Adam, but if you decree all women pregnant must remain pregnant, "anti-choice" is fair enough.  I'm not "pro-abortion," I am pro-abortion rights.  Why not say you're "anti-abortion rights"?  I think the Right has forfeited its credibility when it comes to "life."
You must admit American Conservatives have no other life-affirming positions outside the so-called "pro-life" position on the abortion issue.

Harmonica wroteFor chrissake this has gone on long enough!  Look up the difference between the pronoun and the contraction.  Learn it, know it, practice it!
::)


You're.

Got to catch on to that.  This? That? yeah that.

WTF?  Read the ENTIRE sentence next time ::) SO,what was your point?  First, you try to say the pro-choice people don't care about what the woman has done and now you're saying the pro-life people don't care about what the woman has done.  So, you've been through post-abortion counseling from a pro-choice person?  You know what they say?  You seem to think that guilt is the way to deal with a woman who has had an abortion.  That doesn't sound very "Christian" to me
SO which is it?  The pro-choice people give them counseling or not?  You seem to know an awful lot about abortion and the counseling that accompanies it for someone who is so staunchly "pro-life".  When was the last time YOU were present before, during and after an abortion to see what someone TRULY goes through?



It's very christian to want redemption. Very Christian to want forgiveness for realizing what you did was wrong, and wanting to make a right where you made a wrong.  It's very unChristian to support Evil, it's very unchristian to say that Evil things are ok, certainly unchristian to say they are good.


I never said that either one of them didn't care what the woman has done. Both of them care, obviously for much much much different reasons. But both of them care about what shes' done.  The arguement is not the issue, cause both of them care strongly about the issue.  The arguement is whether or not they care about the girl and the unborn baby.  Which I say pro choice people care nothing about the unborn baby, and only about the woman, IF she conincides to what they stand for.  You say pro-life people care about nothing but the issue.

And the last time I was truly present was never.  I don't want to be any more a part of that than I want to get into a car and have the guy sitting next to me pull out a gun and shoot someone walking on the side walk for a little "Drive by Shooting" observation.  I'm not in hurry to go bust a rapest out of jail so I can observe him in action.  I know enough from listening, reading, and using my head to know what "exactly" goes on, good enough.

Pro Choice people give them counseling. If they condone to what they want, yes. If not, no.

Pro Choice people give them counseling. If they condone to what they want, yes. If not, no.


pro-choice people don't force a woman to have an abortion, they help the woman make the right choice-for her. and if they chose abortion, then counseling is provided and(for a girl I know that had an abortion) it was provided before and after the abortion.

pro-choice people don't force a woman to have an abortion, they help the woman make the right choice-for her. and if they chose abortion, then counseling is provided and(for a girl I know that had an abortion) it was provided before and after the abortion.


Your right in some cases, and I'd like it if you were right in all cases. But I know that just isn't the case.  They help that woman make the right choice in which they see.  If it were a straight down the middle this or that, ok, but it ain't. Too much lean, way to much lean.

Yes, it IS very christian to want redemption for something YOU did that was wrong, but how is calling someone a "murderer" wanting redemption for something YOU did? How is that "making a right where you made a wrong"? You seem to be missing the WHOLE point of "pro-choice"...it has NOTHING to do with YOU or YOUR beliefs or YOUR wishes. It has everything to do with CHOICE, something pro-life people seem to have never heard of. Noone's saying that you have to support or condone evil, but it's not YOUR evil. Who died and left you in charge of choosing what someone else does with their body? Isn't that up to God to judge?


Well said. 

This debate is unresolvable. You either think fetal life should be Constitutionally protected at some point, or you don't.  Nobody's position is right and no one's is wrong.  We could all stand to be a bit more civil and respectful though.  ???

You have pro-choice confused with pro-abortion.  There IS a difference.  Even on here, most of us have said that we personally don't think abortion is right, but telling someone else what they should think or feel is also not right.  It's about CHOICE, something pro-life people don't even consider.  And, once again, you confused me with someone else....I've NEVER said all pro-life people only care about the issue ::) So, you're basing your opinion on what happens in a counseling session on what you've listened to and read?  And, I'm sure a majority of what you've "heard and read" comes from a pro-life stance.  Again, pro-choice does NOT mean "pro-abortion".  It means allowing a woman to make the choice that's right for HER, not you or I.  They counsel the woman to do whatever SHE feels is right, to help her to look at all sides of the situation, not just the one that THEY feel is right for her.  As I said, I went to such a counselor when I found out that I was pregnant with my oldest child.  Abortion was never an option and when I told them that, they did not mention it again.  As I said, I've BEEN through it, so don't sit there and tell me "exactly what goes on" until you've been there and been through it yourself (not through some second-hand story that you've heard or read somewhere).  Just like a drive-by or rape, unless you're THERE and witness it yourself, you never really know exactly what went on.



I have TRIED to explain this to him several times before but it doesn't sink in. I have given up several pages ago. So why waste your breath (or fingers in this case). Personally, I told think he is worth it.




Cat

You have pro-choice confused with pro-abortion.  There IS a difference.  Even on here, most of us have said that we personally don't think abortion is right, but telling someone else what they should think or feel is also not right.  It's about CHOICE, something pro-life people don't even consider.  And, once again, you confused me with someone else....I've NEVER said all pro-life people only care about the issue ::) So, you're basing your opinion on what happens in a counseling session on what you've listened to and read?  And, I'm sure a majority of what you've "heard and read" comes from a pro-life stance.  Again, pro-choice does NOT mean "pro-abortion".  It means allowing a woman to make the choice that's right for HER, not you or I.  They counsel the woman to do whatever SHE feels is right, to help her to look at all sides of the situation, not just the one that THEY feel is right for her.  As I said, I went to such a counselor when I found out that I was pregnant with my oldest child.  Abortion was never an option and when I told them that, they did not mention it again.  As I said, I've BEEN through it, so don't sit there and tell me "exactly what goes on" until you've been there and been through it yourself (not through some second-hand story that you've heard or read somewhere).  Just like a drive-by or rape, unless you're THERE and witness it yourself, you never really know exactly what went on.


Not all pro choice people are like pro-abortion people, but you're taking me for a blind man if you want me to believe that there aren't pro choice people in this world that just asoon be pro-abortion because they aren't a heck of a lot different, IF not worse.

Way to go on making me guilty by association. It was very clever to assume that me, being pro life probably doesn't spend a lot of time hanging with my pro-choicers and Pro-abortionist.

And what a way to play an unfair advantage as well.  Seeing that I'm a male, getting pregnant and having that option of first hand knowledge isn't going to be an easy task.

Glad to know that they did not mention it again, also sad to know a case, of a little girl who's mommy was told it was the ONLY option, a heck of a lot more than once.

Yes, it IS very christian to want redemption for something YOU did that was wrong, but how is calling someone a "murderer" wanting redemption for something YOU did?  How is that "making a right where you made a wrong"?  You seem to be missing the WHOLE point of "pro-choice"...it has NOTHING to do with YOU or YOUR beliefs or YOUR wishes.  It has everything to do with CHOICE, something pro-life people seem to have never heard of.  Noone's saying that you have to support or condone evil, but it's not YOUR evil.  Who died and left you in charge of choosing what someone else does with their body?  Isn't that up to God to judge?


Yes it is up to God to judge.  It's also up to God to judge me for sitting by and letting evil things take place, when it clarify's deeply that I am not to be a pacifist and I am to take action.

Calling someone a murderer, to cause realization. Know what they are, what they have done.

Personally I would rather see someone forgiven, but first they need to ask for forgiveness, and before that they have to know what they did was wrong.

I have TRIED to explain this to him several times before but it doesn't sink in. I have given up several pages ago. So why waste your breath (or fingers in this case). Personally, I told think he is worth it.




Cat


You want me to do exactly what your telling me not to be doing.

The difference between me and you is clearly we think differently, but when it comes down to see it Harmonica's way, let's make fun of him, let's put down his christianity and let's make him out to be an anoited prick.  Funny how it isn't that way when it comes down to let's see it Cat's way, which for some unwritten reason is the right way.

You want me to do exactly what your telling me not to be doing.

The difference between me and you is clearly we think differently, but when it comes down to see it Harmonica's way, let's make fun of him, let's put down his christianity and let's make him out to be an anoited dweeb.  Funny how it isn't that way when it comes down to let's see it Cat's way, which for some unwritten reason is the right way.



First of all, that first sentence doesn't make any sense whatsoever. And I don't want you to DO anything.

And the other thing, I was talking to crazymom and not to you.

What I meant was that I tried to explain that there is a difference between pro-choice and pro-abortion but it hasn't sunk in and I am not going to waste any more of my time trying to explain it to you anymore. As Barbra Bush said to Al Frankin, "I'm done with you."



Well, Cat's way IS the right way to her, just as Harmonica's way is the right way to Harmonica. She's been a HECK Of a lot more polite towards people with differing views than you have. I've yet to hear her call ANYONE a derogatory name. Can't say the same for you.



Thanks, crazymom.  ;D




Cat

Never said that there aren't pro-choice people who are pro-abortion.  Pro-choice people are WORSE than pro-abortion?  In what way? Guilty by association of what?  I'm sure you have friends that span the spectrum when it comes to this subject....it's hard NOT to.  But, based on the assumptions YOU'VE made as to what goes on in a counseling session done by a pro-choice person, it's OBVIOUS that none of the literature you've read was DONE by someone who's pro-choice.
It's not an unfair advantage, it's the way the cookie crumbles.  Just because you're male doesn't mean you can't be present at counseling.  With my first pregnancy (that resulted in a miscarriage) I had my best friend present and he was male.I seriously doubt that.  As I've said before, I have friends who have had abortions and EVERY clinic I've been in does not ONLY give abortion as an option.  Even clinics that do nothing BUT abortions make sure that you are 100% positive that it is what you want. Well, Cat's way IS the right way to her, just as Harmonica's way is the right way to Harmonica.  She's been a HECK Of a lot more polite towards people with differing views than you have.  I've yet to hear her call ANYONE a derogatory name.  Can't say the same for you.


A  I respect a person who isn't afraid to say where they stand. A pro-abortion person who calls themself pro-choice, to me is worse than a person who is pro-abortion and admits to it.  Therefore, those who are pro-abortion and claim to be pro-choice, are worse in that way.

B  Yes it is an unfair advantage, because inorder for me to prove my theory correct I would have to be able to become pregnant inwhich I nor any other male on this planet can do. 

C  I'm sure you doubt what you don't want to hear.  That I don't doubt.  She was too young, she had to much going for her, there was too much to be given up.  Making it sound like her life was completely over, ruined, put to an obilivion if she had her daughter, WAS, telling her that abortion was the only option.

D  No, but you can't say the same for attacking religious background.

First of all, that first sentence doesn't make any sense whatsoever. And I don't want you to DO anything.

And the other thing, I was talking to crazymom and not to you.

What I meant was that I tried to explain that there is a difference between pro-choice and pro-abortion but it hasn't sunk in and I am not going to waste any more of my time trying to explain it to you anymore. As Barbra Bush said to Al Frankin, "I'm done with you."



Thanks, crazymom.  ;D




Cat


I know there is a difference between pro-choice and pro-abortion, and I also know that there are a lot of pro-choice people who just asoon be pro-abortion.

You can't take for granted and think that every pro-choice person says, "I don't personally condone in abortion, but if a woman wants to make that decision fine".  Some do and always will think, "I do personally condone in abortion".

I'm starting to wish I stuck to my principle of never discussing abortion.  The sanctimonious drivel in reply makes me wanna hurl!

B  Yes it is an unfair advantage, because inorder for me to prove my theory correct I would have to be able to become pregnant inwhich I nor any other male on this planet can do. 


In that case, since you can never become pregnant yourself, and never have to carry a baby inside you for nine months. You have absolutely no say in the matter. Bring up the bible and your morals all you want. You will never be in the position that a woman will be in. So shut up.

In that case, since you can never become pregnant yourself, and never have to carry a baby inside you for nine months. You have absolutely no say in the matter. Bring up the bible and your morals all you want. You will never be in the position that a woman will be in. So shut up.

I agree, but that kinda talk only eggs 'em on, Limmy!

A I respect a person who isn't afraid to say where they stand. A pro-abortion person who calls themself pro-choice, to me is worse than a person who is pro-abortion and admits to it. Therefore, those who are pro-abortion and claim to be pro-choice, are worse in that way.



So everyone who is pro choice is really pro abortion?  Hold the phone.  Many people, myself included, think abortion is a bad thing and would rather they didn't happen, but we recognize that it is not our place to tell others what they should and should not do with their bodies.  I have never heard antone say that abortion was a good thing, or encourage anyone to have one, except in very specific circumstances.  And thats just the point.  You want to make ironclad rules for everyone.  Pro choice respects individual freedom and individual rights, not your (or any other guru of whatever persusion's) notions of social engineering.

Further, I don't recall antone mocking your Christianity as such, and especially not Cat. 

In that case, since you can never become pregnant yourself, and never have to carry a baby inside you for nine months. You have absolutely no say in the matter. Bring up the bible and your morals all you want. You will never be in the position that a woman will be in. So shut up.


And where is your position to tell me that I should not condone in my christian duty?  Where is your position to tell me that innocent people are being killed left and right and I should have no feeling of sympathy for them?

Tell me that, oh arrogant one.

You still don't get it.  As Cat said, I'm done trying to explain it. Again, just because you're male doesn't mean you can't be present at counselling.  But then again, if you got a girl pregnant, it wouldn't matter what she wanted so ANY counselling would be out of the question ::)  If you say so. ::) Is this in reference to Cat?  What names has she ever called Christians?  She is probably the MOST respectful person on this board when it comes to differing opinions.  Quite a few people could learn a thing or two from her when it comes to tact and respect. And the point is?  What does it matter to you WHAT they "call" themselves?  There are many anti-abortion people who would condone it in the cases of rape, incest or medical necessity.  Isn't that just as bad? 


I do get it, I just don't convert to it. 

I've tried to explain to you 10's of thousands of times that I am not a liberal, but somehow or another you can't understand how I am not one to say, "do whatever, whenever, however" you want.

Time to be more specific, although the system doesn't allow specific.  I am against selfish and irresponsible abortion, which in the case of rape, incest or medical necessity does not conclude to either of those situations.  Not saying that I'm happy about making a second victem in a rape or an incest, but selfishness and irresponsibility are not there.

So everyone who is pro choice is really pro abortion?  Hold the phone.  Many people, myself included, think abortion is a bad thing and would rather they didn't happen, but we recognize that it is not our place to tell others what they should and should not do with their bodies.  I have never heard antone say that abortion was a good thing, or encourage anyone to have one, except in very specific circumstances.  And thats just the point.  You want to make ironclad rules for everyone.  Pro choice respects individual freedom and individual rights, not your (or any other guru of whatever persusion's) notions of social engineering.

Further, I don't recall antone mocking your Christianity as such, and especially not Cat.   


No, not everyone who is pro-choice is really pro abortion.  Some.

You have never heard anyone say that abortion was a good thing or encourage anyone to say it exccept in very specific circumstances?  Your kidding right? If you have Yahoo and have access to chat rooms go into the abortion debate chatroom and you witness 15-45 people at once saying how great they think abortion is.

I respect freedom and individual rights.  Freedom to not let someone else tell you, your not allowed to live and the individual right to God given life.

I don't want to make ironclad rules for everyone.  I want Everyone to get there chance in life.  Taking away someone's life is not right, and it's a lot more right to not murder someone than it is to take away a right for another person to murder another person.  Which if you haven't seen by now, someday you will, abortion to me and many others is murder, no changing our minds about that.

No, you DON'T get it.  You lump all of us (pro-choice and pro-abortion) together as "evil" simply because we don't agree with you.  You call US hypocrites when you're just as bad.  And trust me, I understand that you're NOT a liberal.....I'm not an idiot....NOONE could make that mistake.  But, how is someone saying "do whatever, whenever, however" any worse than you saying "You will do what I think is right, regardless of what you believe"?  You respect freedom and individual rights as long as their beliefs coincide with yours.  If someone doesn't want to have an abortion I say to them "Good for you", if they do want one, then I say "Well, that's your choice" whereas you impose YOUR beliefs on them and call them names.  Not very respectful if you ask me....


I don't lump you all together as being Evil. Support of an evil act, by whatever you are, good, great, evil, straight narrow, whatever.  Everyone is a hypocrit, and anyone who says' they are not, is either a liar, or somehow able to scew that system unlike the other 99% of us.

This all comes down to legal/illegal....anything illegal is perfectly fine to tell someone they can not do, regardless of what they feel or believe.

There are many freedoms and individual rights I respect that do not coincide with mine, the murder of innocents just doesnt' happen to be one of them.

Yeah, don't kill other people, my belief or not, I'm gonna stick to it.

This all comes down to legal/illegal....anything illegal is perfectly fine to tell someone they can not do, regardless of what they feel or believe.




  What about when laws are  clearly wrong, like when it was illegal for eveeryone but white men with land to vote?

  What about when laws are  clearly wrong, like when it was illegal for eveeryone but white men with land to vote?

And a lot of white men with land secretly pine for those good old days!
I heard Sen. Sam Brownback saying everybody was much happier reproductive rights policies prior to Roe v. Wade.  A lot of our leaders are living in a freaking fantasy world!

  What about when laws are  clearly wrong, like when it was illegal for eveeryone but white men with land to vote?


White men that OWNED property.

And a lot of white men with land secretly pine for those good old days!
I heard Sen. Sam Brownback saying everybody was much happier reproductive rights policies prior to Roe v. Wade.  A lot of our leaders are living in a freaking fantasy world!


Fantasy meaning great or good?

Property and land were synonymous back then, and fantasy does not mean good, great, or bad. It means unreal.

Property and land were synonymous back then, and fantasy does not mean good, great, or bad. It means unreal.


Synonymous or not when Thomas Jefferson wrote in the declaration of Independence, "All Men were created equal", many people believe whole heartedly that he meant, "All White men are created equal". When the truth of the matter he was saying, "All White men who own property are created equal."  Which excludes white men who do not own property.

Which is why he said "white men with land".....


Because I also know that if you owned a business on a piece of land that was not owned by yourslef that also gave you the right to vote.  For instance your brother owned land, and gave you the right to own a blacksmith shop on that land, you had the right to vote with that property.

Better also explain, that you, and I don't mean you litteraly, cause I'm smart enough to know that your a woman, that you dont' have to explain to me.

These technicalities are not really the point at all

These technicalities are not really the point at all


Was your point to clearly state that some laws, were and still are not right?

Was your point to clearly state that some laws, were and still are not right?


yeah, essentially

So everybody can do what they think is right.  Just like a lot of people who believed in civil rights did.  They broke the law and went to jail with dignity.  Hating and insulting people that disagree with you brings negative energy into your own life.

So everybody can do what they think is right.  Just like a lot of people who believed in civil rights did.  They broke the law and went to jail with dignity.  Hating and insulting people that disagree with you brings negative energy into your own life.


No obviously everybody can not do what they think is right, people in this country today still believe in the principles of the confederacy, they I suppose can do what they want, until that is they get caught.  Then they can't.

You are very angry and you show it in a very destructive way.  You could not even read what I said, and you did not understand it.  I hope you find a way to use your anger for good.  This is 25 pages of hate.  If you save every baby and bring them into a world with that kind of hate, it is a pity.

No, not everyone who is pro-choice is really pro abortion.  Some.

abortion to me and many others is murder, no changing our minds about that.



END OF DEBATE.

You are very angry and you show it in a very destructive way.  You could not even read what I said, and you did not understand it.  I hope you find a way to use your anger for good.  This is 25 pages of hate.  If you save every baby and bring them into a world with that kind of hate, it is a pity.


You are very poor at reading people. 

You wrote "So everybody can do what they think is right."  If you expected me to interpret that in some other way than what it is reading, then you are at fault as the writer, not me as the reader.

Sometimes in order to fight a thing such as abortion that exist mainly because of hate, stooping down to the level is a tatic.

The world can be a sad place, but I am to love not only the baby killers themselves but also the fact that baby murder exist?  Hate, yes is a bad thing, and I don't hate the women that have abortions for selfish and irresponsible reasons. I don't hate the men and women who perform selfish and irresponsible abortions. I don't hate the men that force women into having selfish and irresponsible abortions. Do I believe in what goes around comes around?  Yes I do.

Hate like everything has it's time and it's place, and I HATE the fact that irresponsible and Selfish abortion exist. You don't like that, tough. 

END OF DEBATE.


Fine by me. But realize if GWBush or whoever post a topic on abortion I refuse to see it one sided, if I have to be the only one, I'll be the only one. 

You are very poor at reading people.

You wrote "So everybody can do what they think is right." If you expected me to interpret that in some other way than what it is reading, then you are at fault as the writer, not me as the reader.

Sometimes in order to fight a thing such as abortion that exist mainly because of hate, stooping down to the level is a tatic.

The world can be a sad place, but I am to love not only the baby killers themselves but also the fact that baby murder exist? Hate, yes is a bad thing, and I don't hate the women that have abortions for selfish and irresponsible reasons. I don't hate the men and women who perform selfish and irresponsible abortions. I don't hate the men that force women into having selfish and irresponsible abortions. Do I believe in what goes around comes around? Yes I do.

Hate like everything has it's time and it's place, and I HATE the fact that irresponsible and Selfish abortion exist. You don't like that, tough.


You are very full of hate.  You are so hateful, you cannot even think straight.  You say hate is a bad thing, then you say hate has it's time and place.  That is confused.

When you say "If you don't like that tough", that is hateful.  If you think that civil rights leaders acting in peace to break bad laws and do what they thought was right was disrespect to your confederacy, you are full of hate.  There is nothing noble about hate to be proud of.  Hate has a time and a place if you give it a time and place, but it does not do anything positive to treat people with hatefulness or to talk hatefully.

I understand you are in pain over many things, but trying to make other people angry just because things have happened to you to make you angry will not heal your pain.  Everybody has had some kind of pain in their life.  There are people who suffered much much more than you and were never hateful.  Look at the picture of the man you want to follow and learn from his example.

You are very full of hate.  You are so hateful, you cannot even think straight.  You say hate is a bad thing, then you say hate has it's time and place.  That is confused.

When you say "If you don't like that tough", that is hateful.  If you think that civil rights leaders acting in peace to break bad laws and do what they thought was right was disrespect to your confederacy, you are full of hate.  There is nothing noble about hate to be proud of.  Hate has a time and a place if you give it a time and place, but it does not do anything positive to treat people with hatefulness or to talk hatefully.

I understand you are in pain over many things, but trying to make other people angry just because things have happened to you to make you angry will not heal your pain.  Everybody has had some kind of pain in their life.  There are people who suffered much much more than you and were never hateful.  Look at the picture of the man you want to follow and learn from his example.


Your name suits you very very well.

I'm going to stand up against selfish and irresponsible abortion, and if you don't like that and would rather have me support it or just shut my mouth, too bad. No hate towards you on that whatsoever. I'm just stating a fact, you don't like, tough.

I'm not out to make other people hurt, you think that, your as wrong as your gonna get.  I don't doubt one bit that people in this world have gone through tragedy and pathos far beyond what I'll ever know, I want to help them, not hurt them.

You know nothing about my pain, so don't act like you do. I don't make others pay for it, it's my own deal, I ain't killing nobody because of it, and I ain't stopping nobody's life from happening.

You know nothing about my pain, so don't act like you do. I don't make others pay for it, it's my own deal, I ain't killing nobody because of it, and I ain't stopping nobody's life from happening.



Bah blah blah! I think your needle's stuck ::)

Your name suits you very very well.

I'm going to stand up against selfish and irresponsible abortion, and if you don't like that and would rather have me support it or just shut my mouth, too bad. No hate towards you on that whatsoever. I'm just stating a fact, you don't like, tough.

I'm not out to make other people hurt, you think that, your as wrong as your gonna get.  I don't doubt one bit that people in this world have gone through tragedy and pathos far beyond what I'll ever know, I want to help them, not hurt them.

You know nothing about my pain, so don't act like you do. I don't make others pay for it, it's my own deal, I ain't killing nobody because of it, and I ain't stopping nobody's life from happening.



The only thing I Know about your pain is what you have expressed here.  I am just saying you don't have to let it make you hate and act hateful.  Maybe you really don't understand how hateful you are being.  I just assumed you did because of the way you seem to alianate people.  I hope it is not like that in your real life.  But if it is, and you want to change it, you can act differently.  Nobody is saying you should not feel the way you feel about things, but it doesn't mean you have to hate.  Hate doesn't help the fetuses that you say you want to help, and it doesn't help you.  It doesn't help anybody.  It just leaves you angry and frustrated.  BUt you seem like you want to make a difference in the world, so you should try to communicate to people and not act in a way that makes people not want to listen to you.  Just because you we not killing people doesn't mean we are not causing harm.

Bah blah blah! I think your needle's stuck ::)


Blah Blah Blah Blah...isn't that all your capable of hearing anyway?

The only thing I Know about your pain is what you have expressed here.  I am just saying you don't have to let it make you hate and act hateful.  Maybe you really don't understand how hateful you are being.  I just assumed you did because of the way you seem to alianate people.  I hope it is not like that in your real life.  But if it is, and you want to change it, you can act differently.  Nobody is saying you should not feel the way you feel about things, but it doesn't mean you have to hate.  Hate doesn't help the fetuses that you say you want to help, and it doesn't help you.  It doesn't help anybody.  It just leaves you angry and frustrated.  BUt you seem like you want to make a difference in the world, so you should try to communicate to people and not act in a way that makes people not want to listen to you.  Just because you we not killing people doesn't mean we are not causing harm.


I don't alianate anyone on this board anymore than they alianate me.  For example, I am not against women's rights, just because I don't agree with one certain one.  I am not for controlling everybody and having them do exactly what I want them to do, nor am I for everything that I don't like being eliminated.

The thing you don't understand is that it doesn't matter what emotion, or feeling, or thought or anything, nothing I say or how I say it matters, and you fail to realize that.

Listen to me?  Listen to anything other than what was already made up in their head?  Not by me, Not by Rocknrollfan, not by GWBush, not by the few others who disagree.....The deal was done before it was started.

You are very full of hate.  You are so hateful, you cannot even think straight.  You say hate is a bad thing, then you say hate has it's time and place.  That is confused.


Welcome to politco-religious extremism, Christian, Muslim, or otherwise.
Self-appointed "Christan" men like "Harmonica" have more in common with Osama Bin Laden than they do with Jesus.

Maxwell, I don't think that is fair to say either.  I don't see Harmonica say that people that disagree with him should be killed or that innocent people should be killed, so that is hurtful to say that.  He acts disrespectful and hateful, and he is stubborn in the way he talks to people because he has strong beliefs but that is different.  To say he is more like Osama than Jesus is cruel just like him calling someone a murderer is cruel.

Harmonica, it is not right to say that nothing you say or how you say it matters.  Everybody can be responsible for what he says and how he says it.  Some people will agree and some people will disagree.  If you are respectful, some people will hate you and disrespect you anyway, but some people might think of things a different way because of the way you say things.  You cannot control how other people react.  You can only control how you act.  You know when you just want to make people angry and start contraversy, and you know when you want to really discuss things and really try to understand what people have to say. 

I like arguing about things a lot, but I think this issue is important to alot of people so maybe it is better to talk about it carefully and with respect.  You can do that even if you have very, very strong feelings about what you think is right.  Back in the day not very long ago black people could be attacked just for walking down the street and they had their houses burned down for no reason, and women were raped and killed and nobody was even punished for it, but a lot of black people still figured out how to fight against it without disrespecting the people who hated them.  So for sure we can be able to do that about this.

I think you are singing by yourself, crazymom!   ;D ;D

Maxwell, I don't think that is fair to say either.  I don't see Harmonica say that people that disagree with him should be killed or that innocent people should be killed, so that is hurtful to say that.  He acts disrespectful and hateful, and he is stubborn in the way he talks to people because he has strong beliefs but that is different.  To say he is more like Osama than Jesus is cruel just like him calling someone a murderer is cruel.

Harmonica, it is not right to say that nothing you say or how you say it matters.  Everybody can be responsible for what he says and how he says it.  Some people will agree and some people will disagree.  If you are respectful, some people will hate you and disrespect you anyway, but some people might think of things a different way because of the way you say things.  You cannot control how other people react.  You can only control how you act.  You know when you just want to make people angry and start contraversy, and you know when you want to really discuss things and really try to understand what people have to say. 

I like arguing about things a lot, but I think this issue is important to alot of people so maybe it is better to talk about it carefully and with respect.  You can do that even if you have very, very strong feelings about what you think is right.  Back in the day not very long ago black people could be attacked just for walking down the street and they had their houses burned down for no reason, and women were raped and killed and nobody was even punished for it, but a lot of black people still figured out how to fight against it without disrespecting the people who hated them.  So for sure we can be able to do that about this.


I take responsiblity for what I say, and I know my words and actions will have rewards as well as consequences.  I think your aware of that, and I also think you realize my intentions upon my meaning.

Carefully and respect is what I tried to do at first but I was wrong, it wasn't a baby and it wasn't wrong. Their was no opinion on the matter, it was said as if that was a fact, and that got me going.  I dont' care how the debate goes, friendly, dirty, whatever, it's going equal I do know that. It will be fair.

As far as African Americans being able to fight back without disrespecting those who not only verbally but physically hated them, you once again fail to see beyond what your looking at.  If you don't think or know of them attacking the white supremacy followers then your ignorant to the situation.  I will not disagree that a hero like Martin Luther King Jr, was an African American who fought back without violence or disrespect, but I also take John Fairfield's tatics as equally heroic although not as examplifying a figure to follow.

awww....come on.....you know you want to.....

***kumbaya, my lord, kumbaya*** ;)




***Someone's sleeping, my lord, kumbaya***



;D ;D ;D




Cat

Maxwell, I don't think that is fair to say either.  I don't see Harmonica say that people that disagree with him should be killed or that innocent people should be killed, so that is hurtful to say that.  He acts disrespectful and hateful, and he is stubborn in the way he talks to people because he has strong beliefs but that is different.  To say he is more like Osama than Jesus is cruel just like him calling someone a murderer is cruel.

You're right.  My better senses were telling me to ignore him long ago, but I didn't.  Then I got fed up with him and shot my mouth off because I was so bloody sick of his tiresome rhetoric.

I take responsiblity for what I say, and I know my words and actions will have rewards as well as consequences. I think your aware of that, and I also think you realize my intentions upon my meaning.

Carefully and respect is what I tried to do at first but I was wrong, it wasn't a baby and it wasn't wrong. Their was no opinion on the matter, it was said as if that was a fact, and that got me going. I dont' care how the debate goes, friendly, dirty, whatever, it's going equal I do know that. It will be fair.

As far as African Americans being able to fight back without disrespecting those who not only verbally but physically hated them, you once again fail to see beyond what your looking at. If you don't think or know of them attacking the white supremacy followers then your ignorant to the situation. I will not disagree that a hero like Martin Luther King Jr, was an African American who fought back without violence or disrespect, but I also take John Fairfield's tatics as equally heroic although not as examplifying a figure to follow.



I am not so ignorant to think all black people were non-violent.  Maybe not even most of them, but that is not my point.  You can look anywhere for an example to justify how you want to act.  If I want to be violent and hateful, I can find examples easily.  So what?  There is nothing wrong with defending yourself if people physically attack you and want to kill you.  But if we see that some people can resist and stand up for thereself with dignity even when they are suffering much, much worse than any of us, we seem pretty ignorant and spoilt when we act like we know what it is like to be oppressed.  We are not marytrs.  Yes, we all have stuff to deal with, our personal sufferings and tragedies, and that's life.  But it's not like having our whole neighborhood dragged out of our houses and marched to a concentration camp, or waking up to find your wife was raped and your house was put on fire by the town sherriff and his friends, or like living with a war going on in your back yard year after year.  So we don't have to feel so sorry for ourself that we cry about how we have a right to be angry because somebody on a board said something that disagrees with us.  And I know that might sound all kumbaya and everything and I am not some pacifist believe me, but really I have been in the middle of enough violent situations in my own life to appreciate a little kumbaya sometimes.  ;-)

You're right.  My better senses were telling me to ignore him long ago, but I didn't.  Then I got fed up with him and shot my mouth off because I was so bloody sick of his tiresome rhetoric.


Somebody has got to take the other side........too much weight, way to much weight on the left.

I am not so ignorant to think all black people were non-violent.  Maybe not even most of them, but that is not my point.  You can look anywhere for an example to justify how you want to act.  If I want to be violent and hateful, I can find examples easily.  So what?  There is nothing wrong with defending yourself if people physically attack you and want to kill you.  But if we see that some people can resist and stand up for thereself with dignity even when they are suffering much, much worse than any of us, we seem pretty ignorant and spoilt when we act like we know what it is like to be oppressed.  We are not marytrs.  Yes, we all have stuff to deal with, our personal sufferings and tragedies, and that's life.  But it's not like having our whole neighborhood dragged out of our houses and marched to a concentration camp, or waking up to find your wife was raped and your house was put on fire by the town sherriff and his friends, or like living with a war going on in your back yard year after year.  So we don't have to feel so sorry for ourself that we cry about how we have a right to be angry because somebody on a board said something that disagrees with us.  And I know that might sound all kumbaya and everything and I am not some pacifist believe me, but really I have been in the middle of enough violent situations in my own life to appreciate a little kumbaya sometimes.  ;-)


I don't feel sorry for myself.  Where I was wronged, I was wronged. It happened, and it was meant to happen. Regardless of whether I'm happy about it or not, I Do NOT feel sorry for myself.

So what do you think about the morning after pill before a fetus starts being made?  Do you think that should be legal?

Somebody has got to take the other side........too much weight, way to much weight on the left.

The side you've taken is the north side of a southbound horse!
;D

I am not so ignorant to think all black people were non-violent.  Maybe not even most of them, but that is not my point.  You can look anywhere for an example to justify how you want to act.  If I want to be violent and hateful, I can find examples easily.  So what?  There is nothing wrong with defending yourself if people physically attack you and want to kill you.  But if we see that some people can resist and stand up for thereself with dignity even when they are suffering much, much worse than any of us, we seem pretty ignorant and spoilt when we act like we know what it is like to be oppressed.  We are not marytrs.  Yes, we all have stuff to deal with, our personal sufferings and tragedies, and that's life.  But it's not like having our whole neighborhood dragged out of our houses and marched to a concentration camp, or waking up to find your wife was raped and your house was put on fire by the town sherriff and his friends, or like living with a war going on in your back yard year after year.  So we don't have to feel so sorry for ourself that we cry about how we have a right to be angry because somebody on a board said something that disagrees with us.  And I know that might sound all kumbaya and everything and I am not some pacifist believe me, but really I have been in the middle of enough violent situations in my own life to appreciate a little kumbaya sometimes.  ;-)


                                Well Said 

So what do you think about the morning after pill before a fetus starts being made?  Do you think that should be legal?


I respect that more so than I do abortion, but I still don't condone in it.  The bottom line to me is, is she pregant or is she not. That's where I draw the line.  I do however believe in birth control pills, the so called "Before pregancy pill."

The side you've taken is the north side of a southbound horse!
;D


how thoughtful

                                Well Said 


Written.....Well Written

Speaking of Technical

oh, come on now. :-[

oh, come on now. :-[


Well, it was well written.

So when it comes down to it your answer is, you wish you were never born and your better off dead?

Is that what your saying?
Are you saying it's trivial what happened to me..are you saying i DESERVE the way I was treated? Yes I'm thankful to be here...but that does not take away what I have to live with...and the people in this world who have ABSOLUTELY not an inkling of COMPASSION for those born 'different' or into a dysfunctional family. I am lucky to have not 'slipped under the cracks'...I know many of my peers that never got the help I did...they ended up drug addicts...marrying abusive husbands...being kept in State hospitals(h*llholes)like Ancora...or dead by their own doing(OD's and suicides)..and many who sit in boarding homes,too sick or traumatized to make it on their own. I plan on becoming a peer counselor to reach out and help them...I know what they go through...they need understanding,not rhetoric.

Are you saying it's trivial what happened to me..are you saying i DESERVE the way I was treated? Yes I'm thankful to be here...but that does not take away what I have to live with...and the people in this world who have ABSOLUTELY not an inkling of COMPASSION for those born 'different' or into a dysfunctional family. I am lucky to have not 'slipped under the cracks'...I know many of my peers that never got the help I did...they ended up drug addicts...marrying abusive husbands...being kept in State hospitals(h*llholes)like Ancora...or dead by their own doing(OD's and suicides)..and many who sit in boarding homes,too sick or traumatized to make it on their own. I plan on becoming a peer counselor to reach out and help them...I know what they go through...they need understanding,not rhetoric.


I have no idea whether you deserved the way you were treated or not.  The way things usually work in this world I'd bet that you didn't deserve anything of the horror that happened to you.

I agree that they need understanding, and I admire you a great deal in your becoming a peer conselor.

I will never ever take away who they are, and I will NEVER look at them and tell them they don't deserve to be here.  May I rot in Hell the day I turn my back on them and say, "Oh, your mother should have had an abortion, wouldn't have to deal with you or your problems then".