Lynndie England...guilty or not?

Other.  I don't think she tortured anyone at Guantanamo.  She was too busy torturing prisoners at Abu Ghraib. 

Other.  I don't think she tortured anyone at Guantanamo.  She was too busy torturing prisoners at Abu Ghraib. 

Abu Grhrahib is just a training camp, I'd say Lynndie's read to graduate the bigtime, the Big G!

I think she did abuse those prisoners, but she's a scapegoat and a fallguy (or fallgal, if you will).  It's similar to Lt. Calley and the Mi Lai massacre.  The government is personifying the evil of the war in one underling to deflect attention from the real war criminals-- the chain of brass leading all the way up to the commander-in-chief.
Of course, the injustice was double in Calley's case.  Calley personally murdered dozens of civilians in a ditch AND he got off the hook for it!
>:(    ::)

She was too busy torturing prisoners at Abu Ghraib. 


Wow, what they did was torture.  I wonder what people who fought in Vietnam who underwent real torture would say about that.  I wonder if they'd rather be going on American "torture" or Abu Musab al-Zarqawi torture.  Real torture is cutting off fingers, kicking people in the head, etc., it's certainly not panties on somebody's head.

Wow, what they did was torture.  I wonder what people who fought in Vietnam who underwent real torture would say about that.  I wonder if they'd rather be going on American "torture" or Abu Musab al-Zarqawi torture.  Real torture is cutting off fingers, kicking people in the head, etc., it's certainly not panties on somebody's head.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, heard that one like a zillion times.  You sound like a broken Sean Hannity record!
My guess is that we don't know a tenth of what's going on in American prison camps, and if the government can help it, we never will.  I also find it mildly amusing the way all these chickenhawk  fanatics malign John McCain as some kind of patsy with no resolve just because he won't go along with their Machiavellian schemes.  As though five years in the Hanoi Hilton counts for nothing!

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, heard that one like a zillion times.  You sound like a broken Sean Hannity record!



And yet you still couldn't come up with a decent retort.  What they did was not torture, and I think you know it.

And yet you still couldn't come up with a decent retort.  What they did was not torture, and I think you know it.

What they did WAS torture, and it scares me that you DON'T know it!

And do you really believe it only went to the extent of putting panties on the head?  You really believe our military, our government, and our corporate media WOULD NOT lie to you?  Really?
:o

I think she did abuse those prisoners, but she's a scapegoat and a fallguy (or fallgal, if you will).  It's similar to Lt. Calley and the Mi Lai massacre.  The government is personifying the evil of the war in one underling to deflect attention from the real war criminals-- the chain of brass leading all the way up to the commander-in-chief.


I agree on this one...

Mental torture is just as devastating as physical torture, and the effects of mental torture can outlast
and in some casese be much more injurious than physical, this is something that shouldn't have to be explained.

And yet you still couldn't come up with a decent retort.  What they did was not torture, and I think you know it.


That's always the party line of the neocons now.  Kerry's war wounds were just a scratch, McCain didn't suffer enough, etc.  Then they prop up someone who never saw combat.  Ever notice how Rush and Coulter encourage their listeners to support the war, but don't encourage them to enlist? Quite the change from the World War II retorhic.

Torture is torture.  Plain and simple.  Just because the ones Lynndie tortured aren't going to leave lasting physical damage, doesn't mean they weren't tortured.  There are already cases coming to light in Afghanastan where they tortured one guy until he died, and then found out he was an innocent passerby.  I guess the fact that he died though, means it isn't real torture, he was just faking?  If you torture a guy, and he still claims he's innocent, does that mean you just haven't tortured him enough?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4566159.stm

What happened at Abu G... whatever WAS torture, but poor PFC Lynndie was just a scape goat.  The real criminals are in the oval office and running the "Defense Department".  Rumsfeld should be fired and Lil' Georgie should be impeached.  And, what's going on down in Guantanamo is equally outragous. 

AND IT IS HAPPENING IN OUR NAME

Winning hearts and minds?  Yeah, right.

Torture is torture.  Plain and simple.  Just because the ones Lynndie tortured aren't going to leave lasting physical damage, doesn't mean they weren't tortured.  There are already cases coming to light in Afghanastan where they tortured one guy until he died, and then found out he was an innocent passerby.  I guess the fact that he died though, means it isn't real torture, he was just faking?  If you torture a guy, and he still claims he's innocent, does that mean you just haven't tortured him enough?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4566159.stm

Who was that a-hole who said anything that didn't result in organ failure or death isn't torture?
Some of the most effect torture techniques don't even break the skin.  There's the Chinese Water Torture in which you tie the prisoner to a chair and run a constant drip-drip-drip of water on the guy's forehead.  Eventually,it drives him NUTS and he'll tell you anythng.  How about the other one popular in the Orient?  Foot-rapping.  Turn the prisoner upside down and lightly tap on the soles of his feet with a stick of bamboo.  Eventually, the irritation from the tap-tap-tapping drives him over the edge, and he'll tell you anything.  Then there's what the British bastids used to do to the IRA suspects: sleep deprivation.  Keep a guy a wake for 96 hours, and he'll go bonkers and tell you anything just for an hour's sleep.    How about this one, put somebody's head inside of a bell and keep ringing it, eventually, he'll go insane and tell you anything.  Or you can just make a guy lean against a wall.  It doesn't sound like much, but when you force him to lean prone with his hands pressed against the wall, the muscular exhaustion goes from fatiguing to maddening.  He'll give up and talk just to be able to sit down!
And yet, none of these would be "torture" because they don't cause death or organ failure.
A classic form of torture is simple rape.  You don't wanna talk, eh?  Enter Bubba and Smiley.  They'll have their way with you in all positions for a couple hours, and if you still don't talk, second bananas Gimp and Animal take their turns.  Eventually, you'll tell 'em what they want to hear!!

That's always the party line of the neocons now.  Kerry's war wounds were just a scratch, McCain didn't suffer enough, etc.  Then they prop up someone who never saw combat.  Ever notice how Rush and Coulter encourage their listeners to support the war, but don't encourage them to enlist? Quite the change from the World War II retorhic.
Maybe that's for the better.  I've seen the UMass Republican Club.  Year in year out they're populated by David Spade clones.  These aren't the kind of guys you want in the trenches with you when the bullets are whizzing past!  See Al Franken's "Lies and the Lying Liars..." for a good spoof on what would happen if the young chickenhawks had to go up the river with Kerry!  They're the type of guys who graduate with a 2.5 average and get a no-show hack job in daddy's business, or maybe an internship at the American Enterprise Institute.  These are young men of smugness and simper, not guts and mettle!
:P

Yes, she did something horrible, but was also taking orders from an unbalanced superior officer. Whether she did it willingly, that remains to be seen. :-\\

Yes, she did something horrible, but was also taking orders from an unbalanced superior officer. Whether she did it willingly, that remains to be seen. :-\\

Yeah, well, there are a lot remains to be seen all over the place where the U.S. military has been in Iraq and Afghanistan.  We'll never see 'em if the government can help it!

Wow, what they did was torture. I wonder what people who fought in Vietnam who underwent real torture would say about that. I wonder if they'd rather be going on American "torture" or Abu Musab al-Zarqawi torture. Real torture is cutting off fingers, kicking people in the head, etc., it's certainly not panties on somebody's head.
Have you ever heard of the Geneva Convention? ANY kind of torture of prisoners of war is against the Geneva Convention...that includes what that idiot Lynndie England did!

Have you ever heard of the Geneva Convention? ANY kind of torture of prisoners of war is against the Geneva Convention...that includes what that idiot Lynndie England did!

Yeah, but AG Gonzales says human rights are quaint.  We're America, we make the rules.  You know what the Romans did when they were running the world?  Crucified all dissenters along the roads and left them to rot.  Compared to the Romans, we're just too bloody nice!

Have you ever heard of the Geneva Convention?

The better question is, have you?  Geneva only applies to uniformed combatants, who are wearing a uniform, fighting for a specific country, under a flag.  These people are none of that.

The better question is, have you?  Geneva only applies to uniformed combatants, who are wearing a uniform, fighting for a specific country, under a flag.  These people are none of that.

Here is some of Left's unlikable log:
http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/schey_taliban_pow.htm

I suppose becaue the entire war is illegal, the Bush Administration are war criminals, and as war criminals, they are not beholden to the Geneva Conventions.  The Bushies can tell American citizens what to think and base their treatment of prisoners on the hysterical braying of American dogs.
The Iraqi terrorists catch our citizens and chop their heads off.  We don't much like that, do we?  Of course not, it's abominable.  We don't have to treat our prisoners abominably too, do we?  Or do you think torture and abuse at our detainee camps sends a tough message to Jihadists not to mess with Uncle Sam, 'coz he's one tough S.O.B!
::)

Here is some of Left's unlikable log:
http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/schey_taliban_pow.htm

I suppose becaue the entire war is illegal, the Bush Administration are war criminals, and as war criminals, they are not beholden to the Geneva Conventions. The Bushies can tell American citizens what to think and base their treatment of prisoners on the hysterical braying of American dogs.
The Iraqi terrorists catch our citizens and chop their heads off. We don't much like that, do we? Of course not, it's abominable. We don't have to treat our prisoners abominably too, do we? Or do you think torture and abuse at our detainee camps sends a tough message to Jihadists not to mess with Uncle Sam, 'coz he's one tough S.O.B!
::)
I remember a truly 'illegal',disgusting,messy,unwinnable war we should have NEVER gotten involved in..Vietnam!Of course we got involved because of all that anti-Soviet PARANOIA..and the 'domino theory' presented to an extremely PARANOID American public" If Southeast Asia goes..the commies will get us next!" Oh yeah...blame the GOP for planting the seeds for that 'police action'...Good ol' boy and Prez at the time,Ike Eisenhower sent our military over there as 'advisors'...oh yeah,the Democrats had their say too...Kennedy sent more 'advisors'..and LBJ REALLY got the 'fireworks' going!

I remember a truly 'illegal',disgusting,messy,unwinnable war we should have NEVER gotten involved in..Vietnam!Of course we got involved because of all that anti-Soviet PARANOIA..and the 'domino theory' presented to an extremely PARANOID American public" If Southeast Asia goes..the commies will get us next!" Oh yeah...blame the GOP for planting the seeds for that 'police action'...Good ol' boy and Prez at the time,Ike Eisenhower sent our military over there as 'advisors'...oh yeah,the Democrats had their say too...Kennedy sent more 'advisors'..and LBJ REALLY got the 'fireworks' going!
Vietnam brought us wonderful(sarcasm here)things like Lt William Calley's My Lai Massacre,the Tet Offensive,and the mass exodus of Vietnamese refugees..the 'boat people'.

Wow, what they did was torture.  I wonder what people who fought in Vietnam who underwent real torture would say about that.  I wonder if they'd rather be going on American "torture" or Abu Musab al-Zarqawi torture.  Real torture is cutting off fingers, kicking people in the head, etc., it's certainly not panties on somebody's head.
Personally I think she was a stooge for something much larger and more sinister. I think that she should have known better, but I also think that the whole thing was set up on purpose and the photos were released deliberately to further inflame anti-American sentiment in the Muslim world. 
  As far as comparing "real" torture to what happened in Abu Ghirab, I think that's a non-issue. Personally I was outraged and disgusted by the photos that came out of Abu Ghirab. And do you know why? Not because I feel any sympathy towards those who wish harm on us, but because of basic human decency. I've always wanted to believe that we, as Americans, are supposed to be BETTER THAN THAT. There's an old saying that "America is great, because America is GOOD."  And when I see our troops doing B.S. like that it makes me wonder if we're reallly that much better than they are.
    You know what picture really p*ssed me off the most? The one where a naked Iraqi prisoner was trembling in terror while a U.S. military police German Shepherd was barking fiercely three feet away from him.  That's like every man's worst fear. That's like Nazi sh*t in my book. I mean, what went on in that prison that WASN'T photographed???