I've thought about it and I've figured it's very unlikely either exist.  First I will debunk Heaven.

1. It was made up as an enticement to do good / out of wishful thinking

I think Heaven was invented by people over time to give rulers more control over their people buy promising them eternal life.  I also think it's wishful thinking on the part of Mankind that Christ either said was true and meant it metaphorically or the ancients didn't understand.  Who wouldnt't want an eternal vacation?

2. It detracts our attention from this life, so if there's a God he doesn't want us to believe in Heaven

3. The Earth only sucks because we've made it that way as a race.

If everyone did good, there was no war, and we protected our environment Earth would be a perfect place. It wouldn't necessarily be without suffering but it would be much better. What's the point of Heaven when it's on Earth?

4. Who goes there?

According to most Christian churches wild animals don't go to Heaven.  Many say heathens don't either.  Why would God be so cruel?

5, Heaven couldn't exist without Hell

I'll elaborate later.



For hell:

1. It couldn't exist without Heaven

It wouldn't be fair to have Hell if there was no Heaven, vice versa.  The only way that could work is if Hell was only temporary.

2 Nobody really deserves eternal torture

Even if Hitler was given 100 years for each person he killed, it wouldn't go anywhere near Eternity.

3. Nobody ever really "gets away" with crimes

I believe no big wrongdoer on Earth is truly happy, and if they are they are remorseful for their crimes.  Karma explains any exceptions quite well.  There's Hell on Earth.

how about an arguement for Heaven and Hell. Personally I have never seen any evidence of hell but I have seen evidence of Heaven. All of my family watched an angel come to take my father's spirit when he died, that is enough proof for me.

how about an arguement for Heaven and Hell. Personally I have never seen any evidence of hell but I have seen evidence of Heaven. All of my family watched an angel come to take my father's spirit when he died, that is enough proof for me.


You posted about that once.  That's very interesting, although we can only take's others experiences with a grain of salt, even if they're worthy of trust (I believe you, you seem honest and consistent here, but I can only take my own experiences at face value).

my new religious path explains hell as what we see around us. we live in hell and only through spiritual fulfillment can we achieve the ticket into heaven. despite that, i truly believe a dimension of eternal suffering exists. not the christian burning hell but a plane that tailors itself to the punished.

God does want us to believe in Heaven.  He wants us to know that this life is not what it is all about.  

my new religious path explains hell as what we see around us. we live in hell and only through spiritual fulfillment can we achieve the ticket into heaven. despite that, i truly believe a dimension of eternal suffering exists. not the christian burning hell but a plane that tailors itself to the punished.


I believe (or rather "guess") when we experience suffering if we've done ill, but I don't think it's permanent. I don't think Heaven is either, Heaven and Hell are both just perceptions of the times our souls spend in the Metaphysical Realm between lives.

Heaven and Hell?

Well when I'm not reading Ann Coulter for free at the local bookstore and when I'm not checking out the Computer or Film books I sometimes move on over to the New Age and Religion sections.

For the last ten years or so there have been many books published about people who die, come back to life and tell about what happened to them while they were "dead". I've read several of these books (most of the time while standing up mind you) and you can either pass off what they say as a hallucination or just plain lying to sell books, but some of what these people say on what they were told and saw after they died is just too clever to discard as fake. 

Many of the books are from "psychics" which I don't bother looking at. The others are more of the Raymond Moody kind where he was the first person to write about after death experiences (NDEs) probably 25 years ago.

Here's the lastest one I've seen at the bookstores. I first heard about this guy's story probably 12 years ago. It's an interesting read.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385513763/qid=1114394221/br=1-1/ref=br_lf_b_1//103-4600056-1776621?v=glance&s=books&n=596556

Heaven and Hell?

Well when I'm not reading Ann Coulter for free at the local bookstore and when I'm not checking out the Computer or Film books I sometimes move on over to the New Age and Religion sections.

For the last ten years or so there have been many books published about people who die, come back to life and tell about what happened to them while they were "dead". I've read several of these books (most of the time while standing up mind you) and you can either pass off what they say as a hallucination or just plain lying to sell books, but some of what these people say on what they were told and saw after they died is just too clever to discard as fake. 

Many of the books are from "psychics" which I don't bother looking at. The others are more of the Raymond Moody kind where he was the first person to write about after death experiences (NDEs) probably 25 years ago.

Here's the lastest one I've seen at the bookstores. I first heard about this guy's story probably 12 years ago. It's an interesting read.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385513763/qid=1114394221/br=1-1/ref=br_lf_b_1//103-4600056-1776621?v=glance&s=books&n=596556



Interesting. I'll check out the link.

I'd say there's a 5% change the Christian Heaven and Hell exist.  Being a scientist I won't rule it out, it just seems unlikely.

3. The Earth only sucks because we've made it that way as a race.

Even if Hitler was given 100 years for each person he killed, it wouldn't go anywhere near Eternity.

3. Nobody ever really "gets away" with crime



The Earth only sucking cause we've made it that way, was your best statement with the most truth.

Technically, Hitler would serve 400 years, cause Technically he only killed his lover, his two children, and himself.

Nobdoy ever really "gets away" with crime?  Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

I don't want to go to Hell because I don't want to burn in eternal agony.  Then again, I don't want to go to Heaven because I can't stand any of the people who say they are going there!
;)

watch the language folks.  adults might swear, but not here.

All of my family watched an angel come to take my father's spirit when he died, that is enough proof for me.


Two of my friends have experienced that.  One when her husband passed away and the other when her son passed on.   Both of them said that it gave them an immense feeling of peace. 

I still don't believe in heaven though.

Heaven and Hell are fantasies,


Yeah, got to agree with you there.

No, sputnikcorp, you won't. You just need a cookie.

Taoist, that is a pretty ignorant thing to say, and your supposedly a Taoist? Or your took that nickname simply to be "cool"? Either way, I disregard your comments out of hand.

Heaven and hell? hmmm..
Thousands of years of philiosophy, Millions of dreamers and thinkers, and yet no one knows for sure.

The X-tians think they know for sure, as do the Muslims, the Hebrews, etc etc..
I'm one of those "evil paganistic heathens" X-tians warn you about. Asatru to be precise.
www.thetroth.org
If your genuinely interested. We have Valhallah. It works for me..
But one of the base ideals of Asatru " There is wisdom to be found in everything, you only need to see".

Perhapes there is, perhapes there isn't a heaven or hell, For us hell is Nifelheim, a cold dark wet place where you are forever cold, wet and alone in the dark. Reserved for the truely henious of wrong doers (pedophiles, etc, etc) but not because you happen to disagree.

I would say, keep an open mind, accept they they may be right, they may be wrong, and come to your own decision.

Belief in heavan and hell can be neither proven or disproven.  This is a matter of faith.  So to me, this is a pointless debate.  You either believe or you don't.  There is nmo proof either way, but if I get the chance - if there is the net in eternity, when I get there I'll let you know.  Hopefully, that will be in dacades, not years.

Heaven and hell? hmmm..
Thousands of years of philiosophy, Millions of dreamers and thinkers, and yet no one knows for sure.

Er... so they're just fantasies?


how about an arguement for Heaven and Hell. Personally I have never seen any evidence of hell but I have seen evidence of Heaven. All of my family watched an angel come to take my father's spirit when he died, that is enough proof for me.

If you don't mind my asking, how could that be considered evidence for Heaven?  Did the angel leave a forwarding address?

If you don't mind my asking, how could that be considered evidence for Heaven?  Did the angel leave a forwarding address?


For me it's a matter of Faith, I believe that my father went to heaven. Heaven and angels go hand in hand.

For me it's a matter of Faith, I believe that my father went to heaven. Heaven and angels go hand in hand.


Angels also go hand in hand with California.

Angels also go hand in hand with California.


Are you (of all people) trying to say angels and Heaven don't exist? :o

Are you (of all people) trying to say angels and Heaven don't exist? :o


What I believe on this subject is of and by itself, so I'll leave it for you to wonder.

I was just referring to Los Angeles, "City of Angels" and to Anihime(that's spelled wrong) home of the California Angels.

What I believe on this subject is of and by itself, so I'll leave it for you to wonder.

I was just referring to Los Angeles, "City of Angels" and to Anihime(that's spelled wrong) home of the California Angels.


I know who you were referring to. I was just questioning your comment.

Correct me if I am wrong, but i took it as a "so what's your point" sort of comment.

Wardenhammer, you are an Asatru? Interesting, I have never met one before.

While I refuse to commit myself to an organized religion officially, Neo-Paganism(specifically Wicca) is something I dabble with.

I know who you were referring to. I was just questioning your comment.

Correct me if I am wrong, but i took it as a "so what's your point" sort of comment.


I knew what your point was.

It was more of a "look beyond".

If you don't mind my asking, how could that be considered evidence for Heaven?  Did the angel leave a forwarding address?


We also had an unusual experience when my nephew took my father's heart pills. He died for 4 minutes, when he came to, he told his mother that God told him he had to come home, that it wasn't his time to go there, My nephew was only 3 at the time and my sister did not expose him to church or religious beliefs before this.

I can't say that I believe in any afterlife, although I guess there is part of me that wishes there is somewhere where we can be with loved ones (all of them, not just the good ones) after we're all dead. Be that as it may, I don't know what there is and I have nothing on which to base a belief in anything specific.

I don't believe in the traditional view of heaven and hell, I think that's a bunch of bollocks. Thought plenty about that and that's the conclusion I have come to.

As for supernatural experiences, I'm not sure I can even validate the ones i have experienced in my own life, let alone those of others. I try to look at everything as objectively as possible when it comes to the unknown.

^I feel kind of like you.

Although I must say if any of it is possible..I think some form of re-birth is most likely.

^I feel kind of like you.

Although I must say if any of it is possible..I think some form of re-birth is most likely.


re-birth as in what?  Reincarnation? Coming back over and over again in the same life and having different things, different fates  happen to you as well as making different decisions, different choices?  Reliving the same life over and over again, to have different outcomes everytime?

What kind of re-birth do you believe in? I find it quite intriguing.

re-birth as in what? Reincarnation? Coming back over and over again in the same life and having different things, different fates happen to you as well as making different decisions, different choices? Reliving the same life over and over again, to have different outcomes everytime?

What kind of re-birth do you believe in? I find it quite intriguing.




Well, get a cup of coffee and break it. Wipe up the coffee on the floor. That coffee still exists, but in a different form. It was absorbed by the napkin or paper towl or wash rag you used. Nothing is created or destroyed. I think we continue to exist in some form. Also, its a psuedo-science, but a lot of people believe in an 'aura', which is a somewhat more scientific view on the soul. Basically, humans are made of energy. Everything is. We have 7 different layers of energy that make up us. The only one that we can conciously comprehend is what we know as our physical body, because it occurs at the lowest frequency or vibration or whatever.

The existence of an aura, or 'energy body' or whatever has been proven- kind of. They have a special type of photography developed in Russia called Kirlian photography or something like that that shows energy around the human body.

My opinion is perhaps when we die, its just the physical body(the densest body) dieing, but the others keep living on a different plane of existence. Supposedly, some people have claimed to detach their other bodies from the physical ones conciously in this life, having out of body experience. You know, through meditation and the like. Many claim to have been still anchored to their body by a silver chord.

Interestingly enough theres a verse somewhere in the Bible that says something like "And when the silver chord is cut".

Well, get a cup of coffee and break it. Wipe up the coffee on the floor. That coffee still exists, but in a different form. It was absorbed by the napkin or paper towl or wash rag you used. Nothing is created or destroyed. I think we continue to exist in some form. Also, its a psuedo-science, but a lot of people believe in an 'aura', which is a somewhat more scientific view on the soul. Basically, humans are made of energy. Everything is. We have 7 different layers of energy that <a  style='text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px double;' href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=24&k=make%20up" onmouseover="window.status='make up'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">make up</a> us. The only one that we can conciously comprehend is what we know as our physical body, because it occurs at the lowest frequency or vibration or whatever.

The existence of an aura, or 'energy body' or whatever has been proven- kind of. They have a special type of photography developed in Russia called Kirlian photography or something like that that shows energy around the human body.

My opinion is perhaps when we die, its just the physical body(the densest body) dieing, but the others keep living on a different plane of existence. Supposedly, some people have claimed to detach their other bodies from the physical ones conciously in this life, having out of body experience. You know, through meditation and the like. Many claim to have been still anchored to their body by a silver chord.

Interestingly enough theres a verse somewhere in the Bible that says something like "And when the silver chord is cut".


what is your view on communication with the dead then?

IF they still exist that is?

what is your view on communication with the dead then?

IF they still exist that is?


Hmm..I don't really have one I guess. I haven't looked very far into that subject.

I used to believe in Heaven and Hell... it wasn't really them I stopped believing in, but they went out the window when God did. I don't see any proof for it, so that's my logic.