Well seeing as we had plenty to say about the US elections over here - please feel free to have a look at ours in the UK and let us know who you'd be voting for. Here's alink to the key issues and each parties stance on them so you can make an informed decision if ya want http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/vote2005/issues/html/grid.stm?s1=CON_UK&s2=LAB_UK&s3=LD_UK&x=9&y=11

Just my ten cents worth - if the Conservative party get in then the only safe place to live will be...ummm, did someone say they'd discovered water on Mars??? ;D

All three major parties--including Conservative--look pretty good compared to the Fascist-controlled Republican Party running the U.S. this term.

I chose labor by accident.  Now I can't take it back!  Arrrgh!  I'm really more in line with Charles Kennedy's "Liberal Democrat" party.  I hope Parliament votes no confidence on Tony the Phony, but I bet they won't!
::)

What is the Plaid Party, and wouldn't Ian Paisley be better suited for that affiliation?
;D

(That's a little joke, son.)

I choose labor, from what I know they are the moderate center-left party in the UK, and that's pretty in line with my views.

I absolutely adore Kennedy and his party, but they probably won't win. Conservatives don't have much chance imo either. Labour will win. But that doesn't neccessarily mean Phony Tony Bliar will be sticking around. At least I hope not.

**Tries hard not to start yawning**

Other: The Stopathome Party (bring on the apathy...)

I am still deciding between either Labour or Lib Dems. As a union rep there is always the subtle pressure to vote Labour but there are some things I am not happy with.  I need to do more reading I think before making my decision.

Well, not really much choice.

There's the right wing Conservative party
or the right wing labour party
or the "Somewhere in the middle" lib dems

Whilst I though I would never vote Tory (conservative), I don't think the lib dems have a hope in hell and I CANNOT vote labour after Tony Blairs terrorism in Iraq (OK, I'll vote for them when they try and hang him for crimes against humanity)

At the end of the day, I probably won't vote!

At the end of the day, I probably won't vote!


then you won't be able to complain afterwards

At the end of the day, I probably won't vote!


RECONSIDER.  People who don't vote drive me absolutely nuts.  Even if you vote Mickey Mouse
it is better than not voting at all.  At least show up and be counted at the polls.  There is nothing
power grabbers love more than an apathetic electorate.  Wherever peoplehave the right to vote
their ancestors were beaten, raped, hung, and murdered to get the vote.  There are many places
where people are being beaten, raped, hung, and murdered trying to get the vote.  It isn't too much
to ask of those who benefit from it to just show up.

Surely if I have a right to vote, then logically I should also have a right 'not to'...

but if you didn't vote one way or the other then you can't complain about the party who are voted in.  Because if everyone went around not voting then absolute sheeshe would get it. ....... wait a moment....

perhaps we should have a 'none of the above' option

then you won't be able to complain afterwards

Actually, I can complain about the system which renders it pointless for me to vote!
There seems little point in voting, all the parties (with a chance of winning) are the same.  The current labour government commits international crimes against innocent people and the Tory opposition supported them (actually, they supported the war but opposed the way Labour did it)
So what's the choice?

I would vote if I thought it wouldn't be a waste of my time!

Not sure who I'll vote for yet but it will definatly NOT be Labour. I didn't vote last election because I couldn't be arsed which appeared to be the case for most of the country as it was one of the lowest turn outs ever recorded.In my opinion the reason why Labour got in so easily again. 

Is it not compulsory to vote in the UK?  We cop a fine here if we don't.

It is not compulsory.  voter apathy is a big problem as you can see

It is not compulsory.  voter apathy is a big problem as you can see


I couldn't imagine not voting.  Even if you can't get to the polling booth on election day, you have to lodge an absentee vote or a postal vote.

I couldn't imagine not voting.  Even if you can't get to the polling booth on election day, you have to lodge an absentee vote or a postal vote.

I'd be quite happy to vote so long as there were a category stating "I think they are all crooks and would rather have no government" ;)

Obviously, I'm not in the UK, and I don't really like ANY of them, but I guess I would have to go Labour or Lib Dem, based on the info in the link Astrocat provided.


I am supporting Michael Howard's conservatives.

I don't agree with most of what he has to say, but they are the alternative to Bliar.

As long as the Conservative party can take 70 seats out of Labours majority and the Lib Dems do something similar then Phony wont have all the power he has enjoyed this term.

With any luck Parliament will be restored, unlike it is now.. 'The Labour Party London Confrence'

After looking at the information provided, the LibDems seem to match my views rather consistantly. The Tories get on my nerves just reading about them (especially the NI devolution bit). Labour is on the right track, but not the whole way there. The LibDems seem totally Pelagian, which is what I'm all about... so I go with Lib-Dems...

In any case, I'm not a UK citizen so I don't get to vote.

Same here....although I wasn't too jazzed about the 50% income tax thing ;)


The way I understand it, that is the maximum amount which can be taken (in relation to how much money one makes, i.e. the richest Brits could pay up to 50% of their annual gross)... I'm not sure about this, but I think the highest US tax bracket is somewhere around 50% (not exactly).

Is it not compulsory to vote in the UK?   We cop a fine here if we don't.


Not compulsory, Janine...not yet in any case...

Depending on how low the turnout is (and I reckon it's gonna be the lowest in years) there'll soon be cries to bring it in...mostly from er, the politicians themselves...

Well my vote won't make any difference because - as I have JUST discovered - I have not been entered on the Electoral register since moving house and as such I am a non-person and it is too late to register to vote now  :-\\

Funny how they manage to know where I live for local taxes and bills but when according to the people at town hall there is no-one living at my address. Hmmmm, my fault admittedly for assuming that since I filled inthe form I would be registered. Hey ho  :-[

I'd be quite happy to vote so long as there were a category stating "I think they are all crooks and would rather have no government" ;)


It's amazing the number of people who who cast donkey votes.  They write such things on their ballot papers as "you're all d!ckheads" or they don't bother putting anything at all.  I've seen people get handed their ballot papers, they simply fold them and put them in the ballot box!  Voter apathy is alive and well  :o

It's amazing the number of people who who cast donkey votes.  They write such things on their ballot papers as "you're all d!ckheads" or they don't bother putting anything at all.  I've seen people get handed their ballot papers, they simply fold them and put them in the ballot box!  Voter apathy is alive and well  :o


The 'compulsory voting' thing is a bit of a misnomer really. What's compulsory is turning out on voting day and rocking up to a poll, getting your name ticked off and putting the ballot in the box. Actually marking the ballot first is still up to the individual, but the idea behind it is that, if you're going to go to the polling booth anyway, you're more inclined to actually vote. And it's true. Even though there are still a huge amount of informal votes at every election, the numbers of actual votes cast per capita in Australia is higher than in the UK or the US.

The 'compulsory voting' thing is a bit of a misnomer really. What's compulsory is turning out on voting day and rocking up to a poll, getting your name ticked off and putting the ballot in the box. Actually marking the ballot first is still up to the individual, but the idea behind it is that, if you're going to go to the polling booth anyway, you're more inclined to actually vote. And it's true. Even though there are still a huge amount of informal votes at every election, the numbers of actual votes cast per capita in Australia is higher than in the UK or the US.


I figure if you get to the Polling Booth you may as well vote and make a difference.  I do, however, take an interest in policy and try to make an informed decision.  At the end of the day you still end up with a politician though!!  ::)

Well my vote won't make any difference because - as I have JUST discovered - I have not been entered on the Electoral register since moving house and as such I am a non-person and it is too late to register to vote now  :-\\

Funny how they manage to know where I live for local taxes and bills but when according to the people at town hall there is no-one living at my address. Hmmmm, my fault admittedly for assuming that since I filled inthe form I would be registered. Hey ho  :-[


Yet i am illegible to vote and am on the Electoral Register.

The Idiots cock it up every year.. I was sent a Proxy Voting form for some unbeknownst reason.

Not knowing the UK's parties-or candidates too well, at first I want to say the Labor (or Labour  ;)) Party. But, since Tony Blair (aka Bush's lap dog) I don't think I would vote for him. I think probably the Liberal.


Let me ask this question: Do you vote for a candidate or a party? In case you don't already know, here we vote for a candidate. Sometimes there can be more than one candidate from the same party-depending on the post we are voting on.




Cat

To all intents and purposes, Cat, you vote for the candidate that represents your chosen party...

Each party fields in own candidate in an area known as a constituency (or seat) - I think when I last left it, there were about 600-odd throughout the country...

The party that gains the most number of these seats wins...simple, eh?

There is no limit (although it is sometimes frowned upon) to the number of different parties that can stand for election...there was one place (somewhere near Birmingham, I think) that fielded no less than 30 different candidates in the last election (or possibly by-election) there...!

Heh! For someone who's supposedly 'not bothered' by this election, I have spent a bit of time on this thread...!!

To all intents and purposes, Cat, you vote for the candidate that represents your chosen party...

Each party fields in own candidate in an area known as a constituency (or seat) - I think when I last left it, there were about 600-odd throughout the country...

The party that gains the most number of these seats wins...simple, eh?

There is no limit (although it is sometimes frowned upon) to the number of different parties that can stand for election...there was one place (somewhere near Birmingham, I think) that fielded no less than 30 different candidates in the last election (or possibly by-election) there...!

Heh! For someone who's supposedly 'not bothered' by this election, I have spent a bit of time on this thread...!!




Thanks for the info.




Cat

Another "stupid American" question...

Oh, come now...!! I wasn't much clued up about US politics until I saw some of the posts here...

Do y'all have a minimum age to vote?  Like you have to be at least 18 here?

Like most of the world, it's 18 here too...I think it was changed from 21 sometime in the 60s/70s...

Some people would like this lowered to 16, quoting the fact that it's legal to have sex or die for your country (not at the same time, I hope...!) before you're allowed to put an 'X' on a bit of paper...

And, I'm still confused, Paul...you don't actually vote for PM?  You vote for the legislature and whichever party gets the most seats picks the PM?  Do you know who the party has picked before the election?


Correct! You vote for the Party (via the respective candidiate that stands for that Party in your constituency - see above)

Candidates (and also leaders of the Party - potential PM's if you like) are picked by the Party's governing body - Joe Public has no say in who this is...

I will be voting Lib Dem this time. Our local MP is Lib Dem and I'd like to see her retained in that post.

I'm not a party political animal at all, my rationale is based solely on the fact that the Liberal Democrats' policies are on the whole more sensible to me. I can't say I understand their economic policy though, i.e. how they propose to balance the books.

I'm not a party political animal at all, my rationale is based solely on the fact that the Liberal Democrats' policies are on the whole more sensible to me. I can't say I understand their economic policy though, i.e. how they propose to balance the books.


I think they're hoping to 'fund' a lot of it via a walloping tax hike for the super-rich...

Which I think is what Labour did in the 70s...

...and then most of the super-rich became tax-exiles...!!

I think they're hoping to 'fund' a lot of it via a walloping tax hike for the super-rich...

Which I think is what Labour did in the 70s...

...and then most of the super-rich became tax-exiles...!!


Which somewhat defeats the object.

That's why we will never have another actual Liberal government for a long time.

The current generation of the Lib Dems don't seem to have even the most basic grasp of Economics.

I do however agree with a lot of there Social Policys.

I think they're hoping to 'fund' a lot of it via a walloping tax hike for the super-rich...



I think the Lib Dems are proposing a 50% level which is not that much higher than the current levels.  I didn't pay much attention during the 70's Labour govt. but wasn't their level ridiculously high like 70% or more?

I could ask my brother I suppose.  He is active within the Lib Dems and has stood for the local council as their candidate.  He hasn't got in yet because the ward is one where the Tories could stick a monkey up and still get in!

I think the Lib Dems are proposing a 50% level which is not that much higher than the current levels.  I didn't pay much attention during the 70's Labour govt. but wasn't their level ridiculously high like 70% or more?

I can't recall without looking it up, karen, but it was ridiculously high...

Denis Healey (him of the eyebrows and Chancellor of the time) famously stated that he 'wanted to squeeze the rich until the pips squeak', so they squeaked off overseas...

Public spending at the time was rife, so he went cap-in-hand to the World Bank and borrowed heavily, which eventually led to the Winter Of Discontent in the late 70s...

I could ask my brother I suppose.  He is active within the Lib Dems and has stood for the local council as their candidate.  He hasn't got in yet because the ward is one where the Tories could stick a monkey up and still get in!

That'd be an idea, karen...it'd save wading through half the bumf that comes flying through the door...!

That aside (and please don't take this as any offence to your bro'), I'm not totally enamoured by the Lib-Dems total willingness to plunge us ever-deeper into the bureaucratic nightmare that is 'Europe'...

But at least they tell you all this up front...

Of all the election issues the issue of 'Europe' is by far the most bemusing. Whatever the parties may be saying in their manifestos at the moment they are all, with the exception of the insanely funny and irritating UK Independence party, totally committed to Europe both economically and politically.

To try an extricate the UK from Europe is as possible and as likely as Texas extircating itself from the USA. It's simply being used as a political football to gain votes from those who are against being part of Europe which is like me complaining about being part of the Human race - I might not like it but its a fact.

I won't be voting because, well I can't (grrr) due to a cock-up at town hall, but I will be supporting the Labour Party because, unfortunately for British politics, much like the Democrats in America, they are the only real alternative to a neo-con adgenda which the Tories would embrace like junkies in a pharmacy.

I'm still waiting on the day that the Liberals become the party of national politics in the way that they have done so well at local council level. Maybe next time ?

Who of the Brits here knew that it was also Council elections this time?  I only found out the other day because my brother mentioned he was standing.  We haven't had any local manifestos or anything about it at all.

I'd be quite happy to vote so long as there were a category stating "I think they are all crooks and would rather have no government" ;)

So is there a OMRLP candidate in your area, Tao?


What is the Plaid Party, and wouldn't Ian Paisley be better suited for that affiliation?
;D

(That's a little joke, son.)

Technically the "plaid" in Plaid Cymru simply means "Party" in Welsh - I did some work with Cardiff police a while back for the Plaid llafur conference (that's Labour Party, in Welsh)... The joke works another way: all signs and public documents in Wales have to be written in both languages, so I guess you might see a sign that said "Plaid Party".


Who of the Brits here knew that it was also Council elections this time?

In some places but not others: my sister's not up for re-election this year, but we have county & district elections here.


I think the Lib Dems are proposing a 50% level which is not that much higher than the current levels. I didn't pay much attention during the 70's Labour govt. but wasn't their level ridiculously high like 70% or more?

According to George Harrison, it was 95% (Let me tell you how it will be/There's one for you, nineteen for me) - and I think he was telling it like it was.  I'm not sure at what level the top rate came in, though - of course, you know who came out best in the end: the company directors who were awarded massive pay increases 'cause they'd lost a lot of their take-home somehow didn't take a corresponding pay cut when top rate income tax fell. You could argue that Denis Healey actually caused a lot of the subsequent fat-cattery.

As for me, I'm a Liberal still... in my twenty-first year of voting, not missed a single election and still never voted for a winning candidate, or ever (that I can think of) seen the most capable/competent candidate win on merit in an election in which I've voted.  Any wonder that I've spent the last few years trying to come up with a better idea than democracy?  It's a sheeshe system, but currently still the least worst option :(

if anyones interested?


Hate to say it, but I'm not.  I would have been a month ago.  But reading every article, poll, and blog I could find on this, it's easy to see why I'm not interested.

The reason?  It's not a mystery, unlike the US elections, of who will win.  Labor will win, and Tony Blair with his new fake tan with still most-likely be at 10 downing street.  Conservatives will come in second.  Liberal democrats third.

You know who the winner will be.  Unless a lot of labor voters get mad at Blair and jump ship to the liberal democrats or don't vote at all and split the vote for the close second place conservatives, you know who the winner is ahead of time.

It seems like the 1972 or 1984 elections here in America, a lot of "what if" talk, but everyone deep down knows what's coming.

Hate to say it, but I'm not.  I would have been a month ago.  But reading every article, poll, and blog I could find on this, it's easy to see why I'm not interested.

The reason?  It's not a mystery, unlike the US elections, of who will win.  Labor will win, and Tony Blair with his new fake tan with still most-likely be at 10 downing street.  Conservatives will come in second.  Liberal democrats third.

You know who the winner will be.  Unless a lot of labor voters get mad at Blair and jump ship to the liberal democrats or don't vote at all and split the vote for the close second place conservatives, you know who the winner is ahead of time.

It seems like the 1972 or 1984 elections here in America, a lot of "what if" talk, but everyone deep down knows what's coming.


Thing is GW, if enough people vote Conservative or Lib Dem then the Majority the Labour party currently have will be cut, thus ensuring Bliar can't push through anything he wants.

I know that Labour will win.. however they will have to fight for the next 4 or so years.

I wonder what UKers on here think of Plaid Cymru?

Plaid Cymru are an irritating, self righteous bunch of pillocks who believe the welsh language is more important than anything else. they want Wales to be a separate country in Europe and, while I support the socialist/liberal views on many subjects, I do not believe that the welfare of the individual people in Wales is at the top of their agenda.

Their major achievement to date is to force bilingualism into every aspect of Welsh life and as such we suffer the expense and the pointlessness of wlesh/english road signs, public signs in all buildings and in all government documentation.

Furthermore the Welsh language Elite, for that is what they are being predominately middle-class, or the Taffia and 'Old Boyo Network' control so much of the media in Wales and SIMPLE BECAUSE THEY CAN SPEAK WELSH they get government grants and funding to support them with their own radio stations and TV station.

My grievances with these people is therefore brought to a head in Plaid Cymru who are smug, self-satisfied idealists living in cloud cuckoo land squawking like stuck pigs everytime someone dares say anything against them. If they were truly an oppressed minority then I would not be speaking of them in this way; they are not. They have schools funded by my taxes which teach in the welsh language and these schools are slowly replacing the provision for english language schools in Wales to the detriment of ordinary working people who don't or can't see the point in educating their children in a language whose relevance is limited to the arts and culture that can only be enjoyed by those who are not worrying about their jobs or other SERIOUS issues affecting the people of my country on a daily basis.

They are narrow-minded bigots in the most part who sneer at those of us who have as much right, if not more, to call ourselves Welsh.

My final point is - I will never support or condone ANY party that is built upon and continues to remain focused on Nationalism of any creed or colour. That way leads madness as we have seen so often in our past as a species on this planet. When Plaid Cymru drops the flag and embraces the people -ALL OF THEM - of this country then maybe I will listen to them.

Plaid Cymru are an irritating, self righteous bunch of pillocks who believe the welsh language is more important than anything else. they want Wales to be a separate country in Europe and, while I support the socialist/liberal views on many subjects, I do not believe that the welfare of the individual people in Wales is at the top of their agenda.

Their major achievement to date is to force bilingualism into every aspect of Welsh life and as such we suffer the expense and the pointlessness of wlesh/english road signs, public signs in all buildings and in all government documentation.

Furthermore the Welsh language Elite, for that is what they are being predominately middle-class, or the Taffia and 'Old Boyo Network' control so much of the media in Wales and SIMPLE BECAUSE THEY CAN SPEAK WELSH they get government grants and funding to support them with their own radio stations and TV station.

My grievances with these people is therefore brought to a head in Plaid Cymru who are smug, self-satisfied idealists living in cloud cuckoo land squawking like stuck pigs everytime someone dares say anything against them. If they were truly an oppressed minority then I would not be speaking of them in this way; they are not. They have schools funded by my taxes which teach in the welsh language and these schools are slowly replacing the provision for english language schools in Wales to the detriment of ordinary working people who don't or can't see the point in educating their children in a language whose relevance is limited to the arts and culture that can only be enjoyed by those who are not worrying about their jobs or other SERIOUS issues affecting the people of my country on a daily basis.

They are narrow-minded bigots in the most part who sneer at those of us who have as much right, if not more, to call ourselves Welsh.

My final point is - I will never support or condone ANY party that is built upon and continues to remain focused on Nationalism of any creed or colour. That way leads madness as we have seen so often in our past as a species on this planet. When Plaid Cymru drops the flag and embraces the people -ALL OF THEM - of this country then maybe I will listen to them.


So you don't support bi-lingualism?

Why is it pointless as you say? A 1,000+ year old language is pointless? Welsh is older than English for Christ's sake. I don't understand why you would want to throw it away like it was nothing. Once its gone, it will be gone forever.

I'm sorry but I really don't understand that attitude. I don't understand why you resent Welsh-speakers. That seems weird to me.

I'd imagine the aim of bi-lingualism is so that Welsh WILL become more relevant than in just the arts and culture. So that kind of makes your argument seem moot to say its pointless because of that problem when the aim of it is to fix it.

And I'd say the "nationalism" you speak of, is not of the kind you see in the BNP(British National Party). I think that it is more about restoring Welsh language and culture in it's own land, its not about making all people in Wales conform to Welsh social customs. Its language. In England, their native language is English. Regardless of whether or not you are of English descent, if you live there, you should speak it. Why can it not be the same for Welsh in Wales?

I'm sorry but I just don't see your argument.

And it makes me very sad, actually. :(

You seem to be very, I don't know, "English" in your worldview anyway. Didn't you say you live very close to the border?

My views are pretty inline with those expressed by Dylan Thomas. He held a nationalism that was not blind, and supported socialist economic policies. That out look is pretty much how I feel on Welsh political/social issues.

But I guess because I am in the diaspora it doesn't really matter what I think. Even if I support Plaid Cymru, it would be illegal for me to give them any donations.

Alex

The problem many Welsh people have with Plaid Cymru is this insistance on making everything bi-lingual when it is not necessary.  I appreciate (sort of) the need for bi-lingual road signs, menus etc. but an application form for people seeking asylum?  What is the point of making that in Welsh?  Or is there some small corner of Africa (or wherever) where Welsh is the native language? 

Also forcing people who work for government in whatever form to learn Welsh.  By this I mean people who work at Welsh universities where the vast majority of students of from England or abroad.  Pointless.

In the village my husband came from the council moved part of a primary school out of the original old school building and turned it into a Welsh only school.  However, when they had hardly any uptake in pupils at the school they closed the school and knocked it down to build houses.  A few hundred years of history gone!

There's not really a lot of call for Welsh to be spoken...even in Wales...

Go to any of the major towns and cities in South Wales and see if you can find many people who can speak it fluent, not just a couple of words...

Anyway, back to the election thing...

To all intents and purposes, it's another Labour victory, but there's one thing I have noticed...there doesn't appear to be half as many endorsement posters in people's front windows for this election...

Not sure whether that's just my part of the country being different...

There's not really a lot of call for Welsh to be spoken...even in Wales...

Go to any of the major towns and cities in South Wales and see if you can find many people who can speak it fluent, not just a couple of words...

Anyway, back to the election thing...

To all intents and purposes, it's another Labour victory, but there's one thing I have noticed...there doesn't appear to be half as many endorsement posters in people's front windows for this election...

Not sure whether that's just my part of the country being different...


South Leicester has always been more of a Tory stronghold than a Labour one, but i haven't seen a single Red poster at all.

I've seen 7 - 8 houses with Andrew Robotham signs (Our Tory MP) but no Red signs. Odd because it was closer last time than it had been for a long time.

To be honest i'm not sure who the other partys have running around here, need to find out.

There's not really a lot of call for Welsh to be spoken...even in Wales...

There's really no call for Welsh to be spoken at all - but... I have to admit that I can see exactly where Corporate Rawk Haw is coming from, but...  thing is, all this "everything bilingual" malarkey in Wales is kind of a last-ditch effort to save a dying language.  Whether that makes it worth the hassle and expense is arguable - what value can one put on a language, anyway?

There's really no call for Welsh to be spoken at all - but... I have to admit that I can see exactly where Corporate Rawk Haw is coming from, but... thing is, all this "everything bilingual" malarkey in Wales is kind of a last-ditch effort to save a dying language. Whether that makes it worth the hassle and expense is arguable - what value can one put on a language, anyway?


A dying language? Welsh is much better off than any of the Gaelic languages. Most linguists consider the language to be in very good shape, it has over half a million native speakers still, and right about 1 million total(counting those in Wales, in other parts of the UK, as well as the diaspora).

Why should ENGLISH take precidence over Welsh in WALES? Welsh is actually FROM the British Isles, English is the foreign language. Its Germanic.

God this makes me so angry.

Alex

The problem many Welsh people have with Plaid Cymru is this insistance on making everything bi-lingual when it is not necessary. I appreciate (sort of) the need for bi-lingual road signs, menus etc. but an application form for people seeking asylum? What is the point of making that in Welsh? Or is there some small corner of Africa (or wherever) where Welsh is the native language?

Also forcing people who work for government in whatever form to learn Welsh. By this I mean people who work at Welsh universities where the vast majority of students of from England or abroad. Pointless.

In the village my husband came from the council moved part of a primary school out of the original old school building and turned it into a Welsh only school. However, when they had hardly any uptake in pupils at the school they closed the school and knocked it down to build houses. A few hundred years of history gone!


Well, there are several thousand Welsh-speakers in Patagonia, Argentina. :)

And it makes perfect sense to make those people learn Welsh. The intent of the bi-lingual movement is to make Welsh as much part of everyday use as English, of course. Following this intention, these people certainly have to know English as well in order to work for the government, and if the government is bi-lingual, than it is JUST as necessary they learn Welsh.

You lot don't seem to get the idea of what bi-lingualism means. It doesn't mean one language is the main language and the other is on a "only if you want to use it" basis, it means BOTH are necessary in government affairs, education etc.

A dying language? Welsh is much better off than any of the Gaelic languages. Most linguists consider the language to be in very good shape, it has over half a million native speakers still, and right about 1 million total(counting those in Wales, in other parts of the UK, as well as the diaspora).

Compare it to fifty years ago, and you'll get the idea: the rationale behind the dual language everywhere was because Welsh speakers were becoming, I suppose the word is "rusty" as nearly all day-to-day business was being carried out in English.  If action to strenghten Welsh as a language hadn't been taken when it was, then in ten or twenty years' time, the only people speaking the language would have  been the septuagenarians.


Why should ENGLISH take precidence over Welsh in WALES? Welsh is actually FROM the British Isles, English is the foreign language. Its Germanic.

English is from pretty much everywhere - it is kind of odd, though, that the neighbouring language, Welsh, must have just about the fewest words added to the list.


God this makes me so angry.

Why?

Why?


Because its something I caare about, as someone living in the diaspora. And it just makes me angry to see people actually over in the UK don't give a crap at all about their heritage. Judging from some Welshman's attitudes, they might as well get it over with and change their last name to Smith.

Because its something I caare about, as someone living in the diaspora. And it just makes me angry to see people actually over in the UK don't give a crap at all about their heritage. Judging from some Welshman's attitudes, they might as well get it over with and change their last name to Smith.


Not speaking Welsh dosen't mean they are 'selling out' it just means they are faceing reality.

It is a language that within the next 50 years will pretty much die. I don't say it's an inferior language and i have no problem with anybody speaking it who wants to.. but people don't want to.

I am from Brixton in London.. i don't talk 'Cockerney'  ;D  even though i could.

It's not that there is a stigma attatched to it, it's just that anybody not from round there wouldn't have the first idea about what i was talking about.

Same with welsh. If i went to Aberyswyth (lovely place) again, i would imagine they would all talk English, like they did the last 4-5 times i have been there, if somebody spoke welsh, i wouldn't have the first idea what they were talking about. I'd probably feel uncomfortable and either go somewhere else or explain that i couldn't speak welsh.

As for having Welsh only schools, how friggin stupid is that. Let's send these kids out in to the world with no idea how to speak English... the worlds language.

Not speaking Welsh dosen't mean they are 'selling out' it just means they are faceing reality.

It is a language that within the next 50 years will pretty much die. I don't say it's an inferior language and i have no problem with anybody speaking it who wants to.. but people don't want to.

I am from Brixton in London.. i don't talk 'Cockerney' ;D even though i could.

It's not that there is a stigma attatched to it, it's just that anybody not from round there wouldn't have the first idea about what i was talking about.

Same with welsh. If i went to Aberyswyth (lovely place) again, i would imagine they would all talk English, like they did the last 4-5 times i have been there, if somebody spoke welsh, i wouldn't have the first idea what they were talking about. I'd probably feel uncomfortable and either go somewhere else or explain that i couldn't speak welsh.

As for having Welsh only schools, how friggin stupid is that. Let's send these kids out in to the world with no idea how to speak English... the worlds language.



The world's language? PFffft. I spit on that.

What crap. The Welsh language is strengthening, not dieing. And people do want to speak it. The language movement has gotten stronger in the last twenty years, and in Northern Wales at least(although you don't hear it as much in the South) its still used very regularly. 1 in 3 households in Wales speak at least some Welsh. I don't see, with that figure, how you could think its dead as a language. It's lot has improved since the end of the second World War, not worsened.

You are WRONG if you think you can wipe out Celtic culture and identity. We proved you wrong in Ireland, and we will keep on doing so.

Where is McDonald when you need him? I need back-up!

The world's language? PFffft. I spit on that.

What crap. The Welsh language is strengthening, not dieing. And people do want to speak it. The language movement has gotten stronger in the last twenty years, and in Northern Wales at least(although you don't hear it as much in the South) its still used very regularly. 1 in 3 households in Wales speak at least some Welsh. I don't see, with that figure, how you could think its dead as a language. It's lot has improved since the end of the second World War, not worsened.

You are WRONG if you think you can wipe out Celtic culture and identity. We proved you wrong in Ireland, and we will keep on doing so.

Where is McDonald when you need him? I need back-up!


Nobody is trying to wipe anything out.. but it's like living in the dark ages. Let's embrace a language that hardly anybody in the world talks.. we can't use it whenever we speak to the majority of the population of the UK or anybody from abroad, but who cares, we have our pride.

No wonder the EU Left Wales of the map  ::)

Nobody is trying to wipe anything out.. but it's like living in the dark ages. Let's embrace a language that hardly anybody in the world talks.. we can't use it whenever we speak to the majority of the population of the UK or anybody from abroad, but who cares, we have our pride.

No wonder the EU Left Wales of the map ::)


That is so arrogant and typically Anglo. So because the majority of the world does not speak the Welsh language, that means the Welsh should not speak it?

It is OUR language with a longer history than your's, and it has more of a claim to being the British language. Seeing as it is actually Britonic where as English is an import from the German lands.

Bottomline: Welsh, Cornish, Manx, and Scots Gaelic all have a right to be spoken. English can remain the NATIONAL language, but they have every right to speak Welsh within the borders of WALES. You are SO used to the monolingual viewpoint of the world, you just cannot understand the idea that a nation can make use of two languages at once. Well they can! Look at Switzerland, Belgium, China, etc. They all use more than one language and that doesn't mess things up.

And yes you are typing to wipe something out, Welsh identity. Wiping out the language will be the first step. Then the Parliament will go, and it will be back to the days of "WALES. See under ENGLAND". >:(

Hopefully the bi-lingual policy in effect now will prevent that.

That is so arrogant and typically Anglo. So because the majority of the world does not speak the Welsh language, that means the Welsh should not speak it?

It is OUR language with a longer history than your's, and it has more of a claim to being the British language. Seeing as it is actually Britonic where as English is an import from the German lands.

Bottomline: Welsh, Cornish, Manx, and Scots Gaelic all have a right to be spoken. English can remain the NATIONAL language, but they have every right to speak Welsh within the borders of WALES. You are SO used to the monolingual viewpoint of the world, you just cannot understand the idea that a nation can make use of two languages at once. Well they can! Look at Switzerland, Belgium, China, etc. They all use more than one language and that doesn't mess things up.


Yesh.. i have said more than once that i don't care if they speak it or not. It is just beneficial to them to learn english whilst learning welsh has no real benefit except to satisfy there Nationalistic urges.

Bottomline: Welsh, Cornish, Manx, and Scots Gaelic all have a right to be spoken. English can remain the NATIONAL language, but they have every right to speak Welsh within the borders of WALES.

Whoa! Just a minute...who decreed that all of the above CANNOT be spoken? Everyone's got the right to speak the languages if they want...

You're making it sound as if the 'big bad Englishmen' have banned it outright...

Contrary to what you (obviously) think, we're not that bloody draconic here...!

Oh I see, they have Welsh-only schools? That doesn't make sense.

Perhaps Wales should set a national policy on language, and that being that ALL schools will be BI-LINGUAL. I think that could work things out quite nicely.

Oh I see, they have Welsh-only schools? That doesn't make sense.

Perhaps Wales should set a national policy on language, and that being that ALL schools will be BI-LINGUAL. I think that could work things out quite nicely.


As far as i know, most of the schools in Wales offer Welsh as a class... but if people don't want to do it then they shouldn't be forced to.

Hell, i could have learnt Japanese (went to a fairly arty farty school for a couple of years) but didn't want to because i am pretty sure i would have no need for it.

As far as i know, most of the schools in Wales offer Welsh as a class... but if people don't want to do it then they shouldn't be forced to.

Hell, i could have learnt Japanese (went to a fairly arty farty school for a couple of years) but didn't want to because i am pretty sure i would have no need for it.


Your still not getting the concept of bi-lingualism. Bi-lingualism means BOTH languages are just as required as the other. Welsh should be a REQUIRED course in Welsh schools, from an early age. Just like they do in the Swiss school system. And many other 'continental' school systems.

You say you would have no need for it..well you see, Japanese is not a language native to England. BUT WELSH IS NATIVE TO THE LAND OF WALES, HMM, UNLIKE ENGLISH!

;)

And is it just me, or do English-speakers generally, no matter what country, tend to be RABIDLY afraid of bi-lingualism. I see it here with your attitude toward Welsh, I see it with the Western Canadians attitude toward French, I see it with our attitude toward our burgeoning second national language here in the USA, Spanish.

And is it just me, or do English-speakers generally, no matter what country, tend to be RABIDLY afraid of bi-lingualism. I see it here with your attitude toward Welsh, I see it with the Western Canadians attitude toward French, I see it with our attitude toward our burgeoning second national language here in the USA, Spanish.


I'm not afraid of Bi-Lingualism.. just personally.. i wouldn't learn another language unless i needed it.

The whole Spanish in the US thing is a bit of a pisser offer. If people move to the United states, they should speak freakin english.

We have the same problem in the UK, most pamphlets and signs now have Gujurati, Punjabi etc versions. Fine.. if the taxpayers didn't have to spend money on the bloody things.

Our latest terrorism warning pamphlet (which was so pathetic it was funny) could be found in somewhere in the region of 40 languages. Including welsh!!

Well.. if your gonna move to England.. chances are, you may just need to know how to speak English. We all do, you'll find we are all far more receptive towards you if you speak English.

There we go, sorry to rant but it's a real sore point.

Dude, Spanish has just as much right to be spoken here as English.

Look at how many places in this country have Spanish names, how many states. Florida was a Spanish colony, the southwest was part of Mexico. The first explorers and colonists to arrive on these shores were not Anglo-Saxons, they were Spaniards.

The only languages that are REALLY American are Tsalagi(Cherokee) and other Native American languages. The notion that English somehow has inherently more right to be spoken in this country is ridiculous, when it is, itself, a foreign language.

Calling Spanish a foreign language in this country vis-a-vis English is laughable. Its the pot calling the kettle black.

There are many towns in the Southwestern United States with Spanish-speaking populations that lived here before Anglo settlers ever arrived.

Quite frankly, the language of Americans is whatever they speak. If you have a language like Spanish, which over 10 percent of the population(out of 300 million!) speak it, its an American language imo.

I am a Spanish-speaker, and I will raise my children in the future to be bi-lingual. There are benefits to it, when done properly(i.e. they are balanced in their abilities of both languages). Studies have shown bi-lingual children on average even do a bit better in their studies than their monolingual counterparts. Bi or multi lingualism is the natural state for much of the world's population.

I think it makes children more open to other cultures, less ethno-centric, which is a pressing issue for Americans to address in this day and age.

I often notice when I bring up arguments about bi-lingualism, people like to throw out "they should learn English if they are gonna live here!!!!". Sorry to be frank, but NO **** SHERLOCK. I am advocating BI lingualism. Which would imply that I think that everyone should speak English as well. So either you just cannot wrap your mind around the basic concept, or you have no argument against the actual concept and your just distracting from the real question by turning the debate into one over whether or not immigrants hould learn English.

Let us not throw the baby out with the bath water.

Okay guys, as I'm actually living in Wales and I was the one who started the whole argument I'd like to point out a few things to mollify the semi-flame war that almost occurred as a result.

My Grandmother on my mothers side was born in a small welsh village in West Wales in the latter part of the 19th Century. She suffered under the Welsh-Not system imposed in school at the time whereby children would be punished (beaten, whipped, excluded and publicly humiliated)  for speaking the Welsh language. The language was, at the time, being systematically eradicated by the English who feared the fact that they could not understand what the peasants - for that is what the Welsh people were (and still are at times) to them. The fact is that, as in Ireland and Scotland before, they successfully destroyed the Welsh language. At that time the language, just like the negro spirituals, was the code of the oppressed which bound the community together. Politically, the welsh people at the time did not exist; they were like most of the celtic nations 'the blacks of Britain'.

However, let us not be too simplistic. In the North of England and in Cornwall and in the rural communities of England the poor working class were treated almost as badly, if not worse. They too developed their own dialects and possessed their own cultures which reinforced their sense of community during times of oppression and great poverty.

When people talk of the 'English' they meant then, and still do now, the ruling classes and landed gentry and aristocracy; the Welsh were never oppressed by the Geordies or the Cornish or the Mancunians - it was a South East England power elite that controlled the country for their own laisez faire capitalist means.

Now to keep this as brief as possible, the Welsh language of the modern day is very much the preserve and the fascination of the middle-classes in Wales. These people with their wealth and influence in society still talk about and act like they are an oppressed minority. They are not - it is an affectation, a pose, and an insult to the past; they are the chattering classes wittering on in a language at dinner parties as if by doing so they have, and herein lies the rub, a greater claim and make a greater constribution to the heritage and culture of Wales. Furthermore as a minority, unlike in the past, they have power and influence through the media and politics in a way that my Grandmother and here contemporary natural welsh speakers never had.

Where were these people when the Conservative government were closing down the mining and Steel industries in Wales in the 1980s? They were lobbying parliament for bilingual unemployment forms and bilingual signs in hospitals. Where were they when I and many other evil traitors to our country (i.e. non Welsh speakers) were collecting money and food and clothing for the poor striking miners? I never saw one of them on the picket lines or out there with a collecting bucket getting called a commie like I was.

While the real Welsh people, the hard working class, were fighting for the survival of their communities and their jobs, they were, like Nero fiddling while Rome burnt, busy tackling the important issues of getting S4C the Welsh only TV Channel (lower viewing figures than PBS during the Super Bowl) funded by the taxpayers of Wales.

My point is that, and let me be totally clear about this, "I am NOT anti-Welsh language". I fully support many of the initiatives to support and promote and, essentially, preserve the culture and language of Wales in the same way as I support the varied and individual cultures of any community. While I do not speak Welsh I can understand the language, written and spoken, for the most part and it is a beautiful language. I have released records on my label by bands that perform in both languages. Some of you may know about the great Welsh band the Super Furry Animals? They sing in both Welsh and English but were brought up in North wales in predominately Welsh-speaking towns. When the played the Eisteddfod (a big Welsh culture event held each year) they were told that they could not, under any circumstances, perform any of their songs off their album in English. In protest they proceeded to whistle the melodies to each track. Now that is quite a ridiculous thing to do to a band that has probably done more to promote the Welsh language to young people within and outside Wales than almost any other. Even they find the rules and attitudes farcical. Support the culture but do NOT censor either language.

What I do not support is the disproportionate level of expenditure made in my country (yes its mine as well as theirs) which benefits only an elite. My sister works in a junior school in Cardiff which is likely to close down as a result of government cutbacks. She does not speak Welsh. They will be re-opening the school in September as a Welsh-Medium school. She cannot get a job in that school because she does not speak Welsh. Children will only be allowed to attend the school if their parents are committed to their children speaking Welsh. Those children currently attending the school whose parents do not or cannot agree to this will have to send their kids miles away to the next nearest school. This is simply madness on a grand scale. As someone pointed out earlier, Welsh is already compulsory in all schools in Wales until 14 years old and then is optional until 18 - what is wrong with that? The real reason for the popularity of the Welsh language schools is that they receive increased grant funding and therefore have better facilities and smaller class sizes so, hey, the middle classes get a pseudo private education for free. Gin and Tonics all round, what ho !!

So to conclude this rather overlong dissertation *ahem* which is neither complete nor impirical, the ability to speak the Welsh language does not make anyone more welsh but in the eyes of Plaid Cymru and their chattering supporters it does. They see a Wales cowed in the past, full of myths and legends, as non-existent today as it was, in reality for the vast majority of Welsh people, even then. The language issue is no longer a political imperative, it is a matter of aesthetics and this does not secure jobs and the well-being of the people of Wales. It cannot be a priority issue and I'm afraid that, even though Plaid Cymru has progressed over the last few decades, until they stop excluding the Non-Welsh speaking people of Wales from their true agenda they will never be the party of power in the region.

We can embrace and learn from the past - we cannot live in it !

PS: English is the language of Wales as much as Welsh - we are bilingual diolch yn fawr  ;)

Martin, I understand everything you meant. You explained it quite eloquently.

I agree with basically everything you say.

And I think compulsory Welsh-education until 14 is enough.

Heres my argument though. While I don't think its right to do to people what they are doing in the name of getting people to learn Welsh, I DO support bi-lingualism and would like one day for all the people in Wales to know it, no matter their background. It should be embraced along with English. I like your assesment of Wales being a bi-lingual culture.

And if Plaid Cymru doesn't see it that way, if they see Welsh-language as being about the past and myths and legends and just pure national pride, than I disagree with that. It should be the contemporary language of Wales alongside English. Thats my opinion. I guess we agree afterall.

I was just a little apprehensive because prior to this I had a positive impression of Plaid Cymru, and I guess I got too defensive. I made the mistake of assuming you were anti-Welsh because you were critical of them.

Hi Alex
I think Plaid are a lot better and have a more mature attitude these days but the people behind the party do not have the political experience or vision, in my opinion, to build a future for Wales. Maybe in a few more years who knows, but they must embrace the whole culture of Wales now and not just the interests of a minority.

Also, everyone in Wales is fully aware of the Welsh language. I just think, in fact I know, that the majority resent the way it has been forced down their throats. If you want to bring about change its about winning hearts and minds. While I notionally and theoretically support true bilinguallism in any country there is a resource issue in each case as it cannot be done without incurring costs and it cannot be done without excluding people from opportunities in employment. You cannot enforce bilingualism to a country that only has 21% of the population claiming to speak, read or write the language ( http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=447 ) and that does not ask the question, how many conduct their daily lives and business entirely in welsh (I think the proportion falls off dramatically to less than 10% if a recent article is correct?!?)

As the article also points out, that figure is starting to rise and it will be interesting to see how it develops in the future and to see how many of the 10-15 year olds continue to speak the language into adulthood.

Hi Alex
I think Plaid are a lot better and have a more mature attitude these days but the people behind the party do not have the political experience or vision, in my opinion, to build a future for Wales. Maybe in a few more years who knows, but they must embrace the whole culture of Wales now and not just the interests of a minority.

Also, everyone in Wales is fully aware of the Welsh language. I just think, in fact I know, that the majority resent the way it has been forced down their throats. If you want to bring about change its about winning hearts and minds. While I notionally and theoretically support true bilinguallism in any country there is a resource issue in each case as it cannot be done without incurring costs and it cannot be done without excluding people from opportunities in employment. You cannot enforce bilingualism to a country that only has 21% of the population claiming to speak, read or write the language ( http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=447 ) and that does not ask the question, how many conduct their daily lives and business entirely in welsh (I think the proportion falls off dramatically to less than 10% if a recent article is correct?!?)

As the article also points out, that figure is starting to rise and it will be interesting to see how it develops in the future and to see how many of the 10-15 year olds continue to speak the language into adulthood.


Yeah, that is what I will be keeping an eye on too. How many of this generation(which are, I believe, the first to have compulsory Welsh education) will retain it into their adulthood and use it later in life? Even pass it on to their children? I think THAT, more than anything, will determine the vitality of Cymraeg into the future.

Hey, think about it though, if Israel could manage to revive Hebrew, anything is possible. ;D

Yeah, that is what I will be keeping an eye on too. How many of this generation(which are, I believe, the first to have compulsory Welsh education) will retain it into their adulthood and use it later in life? Even pass it on to their children? I think THAT, more than anything, will determine the vitality of Cymraeg into the future.



My husband was taught Welsh at school.  His mother speaks a little Southern Welsh because her grandmother and aunts did.  However it is not a language she uses at any other time than when visiting elderly relatives.  My husband does not speak Welsh in any meaningful way though he understands the roots of words etc.

You can be proud of your Welsh heritage without being a Welsh speaker. 

I am proud of my Indian heritage. However i don't feel the need to go out and learn the language of the Sioux.

I can fully understand Alex your wish that people be Bi-Lingual. It has it's advantages. I speak French to a fairly good standard. I am slow with it, but understand it. When i visit France they are very appreciative of my efforts and as such i probably recieve better treatment and service than some idiot from Newcastle who Yorps away in Geordie and just speaks louder when they can't understand.

However, children should not be Forced to be Bi Lingual. Here in the UK schools teach languages from the age of about 11 until 16. That's 5 years of Languages. There is an additional 2 years on top of that where languages are optional and then of course if your interested you can do it at University.

I don't know one single person in my group of friends and associates that has chosen to take on a language to any higher degree. Does this mean they are all idiots (partially  ;D) No.. does it mean that they know they can get away with speaking English anywhere? Bingo.

I am sure it is sad to see a language dissapear, but English is the worlds Language. It may not be the fluent spoken language of everybody, but i guarentee more people speak English in a business situation than they do Spanish or Mandarin Chinese.

I would hazard a guess that more people can understand English to some degree than any other language.

So yes, being Bi-Lingual isn't an advantage, but whats more important, Kids knowing about the History of there own country, Being fit and active, Understanding how the planet works, or being able to speak to somebody on the other side of the world? If languages were made compulsory and were given as much school time as english then what would suffer..

History, Physical Education, The Sciences. All important subjects.

It's difficult for me to come to a conclusion that you will agree with here, because our opinions are very different but let me just say this.

In my opinion, it's far more important that little Jimmy can do Basic Maths, and can understand his own language, English, to a good standard, than it is for him to be able to speak fluent Spanish.

Like i have said, i did languages for 5 years. I would estimate that 10% of my school week was taken up on languages. I failed Maths, now just for arguments sake, what do you think would have happened if i had been given extra math classes instead of French?
I think i may have passed.. instead i know a language that i have used.. three times. Ever. Hmmm, you do the Math there Alex, I might get it wrong.  ;D

You are correct. I am not going to agree.

Is it not compulsory to vote in the UK?  We cop a fine here if we don't.
Same here too. Not sure if it's enforced though.

I'd vote Liberal. Hrmm... elections in 2 days  :o Good luck  :)

I am still undecided  :-\\

I intend to sit down tonight and read though all the stuff that's arrived through the letterbox and then decide.  Except I think I threw all the Conservative stuff straight in the bin!  ;D

I am still undecided  :-\\

I intend to sit down tonight and read though all the stuff that's arrived through the letterbox and then decide.  Except I think I threw all the Conservative stuff straight in the bin!  ;D


I would actually vote Conservative if i was able to (They sent me some form about Voting by Proxy, then sent me a letter telling me to throw it away..  ::))

I don't really want Howard in, however they are the only viable alternative to the Bliar.

I've said it once and i'll say it again, as long as Tony's Majority can be cut to somewhere around the 40 mark, then although most of what The Government wants will go through Parliament, some of the more Controversial (and pointless i.e Foxhunting Ban) bills will be held up and stopped before they get going.

The Lib Dems would Bankrupt the country withing two terms. One term would give them at least enough time to cause some serious damage.

I asked the Kilroy-Silk representative why he wanted us to withdraw from Europe. He gave me some convulted excuse that involved National pride of all things. I told him i would have much more national pride if we had a stable economy, something that being a part of Europe helps us attain.

I think we've got people from the Kilroy-Silk party (whatever its called - Verso? something beginning with V anyhow) and a UKIP guy who sounds a real racist in his address  ::)  Definitely sha't be voting for either of them.

I think we've got people from the Kilroy-Silk party (whatever its called - Verso? something beginning with V anyhow) and a UKIP guy who sounds a real racist in his address  ::)  Definitely sha't be voting for either of them.


I still remember the BNP Video with the Sikh chap explaining why he was supporting them. That was a very clever move by them. Not all skinhead thugs evidently.

They have taken a lot of unfair knocks. It's really the National Front who are the thugs.

They have taken a lot of unfair knocks. It's really the National Front who are the thugs.


I agree that, on the whole, NF members are thugs.  It doesn't stop people in the other parties beign racist in the language that they use.  I can't remember his exact words but the UKIP guy was basically saying Britain is Great and Johnny Foreigner should go back home to where he came frombecause he's just here to take jobs and money away from white people who deserve it more.

I think we've got people from the Kilroy-Silk party (whatever its called - Verso? something beginning with V anyhow)

Veritarse.. I mean "Veritas"

All that the election's inspired so far is: http://www.amiright.com/parody/60s/thebeatles1065.shtml

...somehow it just doesn't seem to have the comic potential of the US election.

I don't really want Howard in,

Is it the pink?  Just kidding.

Is it the pink?  Just kidding.

I'm saying no more, I know nothing about any of them.


;D The pink is somewhat off putting.

Well GW, here nobody likes to commit themselves to anything, they usually say fairly similar things that most people could agree with. I haven't actually read the Tory Manifesto this time round (I have seen the Lib Dem one because there econmic ideas were just laughable) but generally he will be somewhat less interested in getting deeper in bed with Europe, a point i am split on, he wants to cut taxes somewhat but of course this is a lie. Essentially very similar plans to The Bliar, however with a somewhat more Conservative slant to them.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/newspapers/5_may_2005/img/6.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/newspapers/5_may_2005/img/7.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/newspapers/5_may_2005/img/3.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/newspapers/5_may_2005/img/1.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/newspapers/5_may_2005/img/2.jpg