At 8:37 British time it was announced that The Pope has passed away at The Vatican this evening.

I am at a loss for words....

It is not really any surprise. We all know it was coming. I am not a Catholic but I do recongize his leadership in the world and his contrubition to humanity and history. May he rest in peace.




Cat

"Ask not for whoim the bell tolls, it tolls for thee".  I must say that I really didn't like this Pope.  I liked his predeseser much better.  But I am sorry for his passing.  He certainly will have a place in histroy.l

Go with God, John Paul II.

"Ask not for whoim the bell tolls, it tolls for thee".  I must say that I really didn't like this Pope.  I liked his predeseser much better.  But I am sorry for his passing.  He certainly will have a place in histroy.l

I agree.  I disagreed with him on many social issues.  I do admire his stand against Soviet tyranny and especially his support for Solidarity in Poland.  The corporate media steered clear of John Paul's criticisms of capitalism, which are also held by most of the Church's leadership.  The American Right embraced this Pope's hard line against contraception, abortion, and euthenasia.  John Paul's stand against capital punishment and war was equally rigorous, but dismissed by conservatives in my country as a matter of course. 
Since I am not a Catholic, and not even a practicing Christian, I don't feel a personal relationship to the papacy.  I'm not going to pretend to be personally mournful.  However, my condolences go out to the hundreds of millions who tonight mourn Pope John Paul's passing.  As a member of the social species homo sapiens, I do feel sympathetic on this sad day.
:\'(

I must say that I really didn't like this Pope.  I liked his predeseser much better.


Would that have been John Paul I, who lasted about a month (if memory serves...)

Pope John Paul

"Ask not for whoim the bell tolls, it tolls for thee".  I must say that I really didn't like this Pope.  I liked his predeseser much better.  But I am sorry for his passing.  He certainly will have a place in histroy.l


Pope Paul VI was a career bureaucrat who frittered away most of his 15 year reign.  I won't ding him for Vatican II changes because they were mainly cosmetic, despite the complaints of many old-line Catholics.  But Paul basically broke little new ground and served mainly as a figurehead.

Interestingly though, Paul VI did take quite an interest in the then-young Karol Woytija and elevated him to Cardinal at the tender age of 47 years.  Apparently Woytija was a strong influence in Pope Paul's Human Vitae encyclical which clearly condemned artificial contraception.

The church had a long history of electing bureaucrats to the papacy.  Pope John Paul II was first and foremost a pastor, and it showed in his papacy.  I sincerely hope that the next pope is more pastor than bureaucrat.

At 8:37 British time it was announced that The Pope has passed away at The Vatican this evening.

I am at a loss for words....
Sad as this occassion is, I was trying to place the announcement time of the sad event last night, thank you.

"Ask not for whoim the bell tolls, it tolls for thee".  I must say that I really didn't like this Pope.  I liked his predeseser much better.  But I am sorry for his passing.  He certainly will have a place in histroy.l
I liked him,though i don't agree with many ogf the church's policies,but catholicism is part of hheritage.it was nice that he was from Poland,like some of my ancestors,and he inspired the fall fo the iron Curtain.It was unfortunate that we didn't get to know Albino Luciani that well,though.

I am at a loss for words as well. He will be deeply missed. :\'( I just know that he was the only pope whose papacy I lived through, since he was elected pope two years before I was born.  Also I remember very well when he came to Los Angeles in September of 1987.

Sorry i really didnt know who he was.  Can someone give me some info about him?  I knew he was a good person and all of that stuff, but I really dont know any of his history.

God rest his soul.

My question is why is everyone calling him the holy father when all he was was the pope.  I thought God was the holy father?

Sorry i really didnt know who he was.  Can someone give me some info about him?  I knew he was a good person and all of that stuff, but I really dont know any of his history.

My question is why is everyone calling him the holy father when all he was was the pope. I thought God was the holy father?


The Pope is the highest up in the ranks of the churches, mostly the Catholic church. Not too sure whyhe was called the Holy Father as for God I always see him as The Heavenly Father.

hope this helps.

helps a bit but just doesnt seem to make sense to me

I take it that you are Catholic?

very good reasoning.  I am not Catholic but my church always says that Catholics think that they are Holy and stuff like that

lol the only way you can go to Hell is if you dont accept Christ into your heart.  That is what I have been taught so those others are wrong lol but thats funny that they are trying to tell you something like that.  I know a lot of people that were baptized at birth and there is nothing wrong with them.  I was baptized at 14 so I really dont know what the difference is.

Our church teaches that if the person did not know of Jesus because they were young or mentally challenged in some way, then He will have mercy and save them.  I am not totally sure about that though becuase I am not God

I heard the news just as I was getting off work Saturday afternoon.  And I also was saddened.

One legacy that will remain is his outreach to other faiths.

He was the first pope to visit a Jewish Synagogue in modern history.

He was opposed to the Holocost, and actively helped Jewish refugees to escape WWII Europe.

Officially recognized Israel, and established Diplomatic relations with Israel.

Was the first Pope to visit a Mosque.

In 1999, kissed a copy of the Qur'an, recognizing it as a Holy Book.

In 1983, was the first Pope to preach a service in the Lutheran Church in Rome.

Had many meetings with the Eastern Orthadox Church, striving to end the long schizm between their faiths.

Of course, me met with world leaders, including 4 US Presidents, Soviet Prime Ministers, Yassar Arrafat, Fidel Castro, and many many more.

Now I am not Catholic, but I can still recognize a good man when I see him.  Of course I do not agree with everything he did or said, but I think he did FAR more good things then things I dissagree with.

i was looking for papal prophesies on the net and i happened upon a far right catholic site that denounced pope john paul II as evil because he was a humanitarian who reached out to the enemies of God by building bridges with jews, muslims and other faiths... ::)

there's no winning with extremists.

I am glad to see that you agree with me crazymom.  I was watching the TV this morning and the popes funeral was a neverending thing.  It really shocked me.

Apparently, back in 1978 the cardinals in the Vatican revealed themselves to be big fans of the Beatles. Maybe they'll name the next pope "George Ringo."

;)

Apparently, back in 1978 the cardinals in the Vatican revealed themselves to be big fans of the Beatles. Maybe they'll name the next pope "George Ringo."

;)

;D Too funny! I actually thought that myself as well.

Apparently death wipes away all criticism of public figures.

He didn't win the nobel peace prize, he croaked. Dying does not correct someone's personality flaws or automatically redeem them from their mistakes.

I agree with you on that.  I do not understand why his death is much bigger than that of Reagans.

I agree with you on that.  I do not understand why his death is much bigger than that of Reagans.


You've got to be kidding.  Without the leadership of Pope John Paul 2, much of Europe would still be nder communist rule.

It was JP2 who inspired the Polish people to rise against the totalitarians in a peaceful way.

Reagan then rightly took advantage on the political scene.

1000 years from now, few people will remember Ronald Reagan.  On the other hand, John Paul the Great will be remembered forever and celebrated as a hero and a Polish patriot.  :)

You've got to be kidding. Without the leadership of Pope John Paul 2, much of Europe would still be nder communist rule.

It was JP2 who inspired the Polish people to rise against the totalitarians in a peaceful way.

Reagan then rightly took advantage on the political scene.

1000 years from now, few people will remember Ronald Reagan. On the other hand, John Paul the Great will be remembered forever and celebrated as a hero and a Polish patriot. :)


Those things are true, but he was also ineffective in preventing the molestation scandal, and he has done little to fix the growing gap in the church between progressives in the industrialised world and traditionalists in the third world.

I heard the news just as I was getting off work Saturday afternoon.  And I also was saddened.

One legacy that will remain is his outreach to other faiths.

He was the first pope to visit a Jewish Synagogue in modern history.

He was opposed to the Holocost, and actively helped Jewish refugees to escape WWII Europe.

Officially recognized Israel, and established Diplomatic relations with Israel.

Was the first Pope to visit a Mosque.

In 1999, kissed a copy of the Qur'an, recognizing it as a Holy Book.

In 1983, was the first Pope to preach a service in the Lutheran Church in Rome.

Had many meetings with the Eastern Orthadox Church, striving to end the long schizm between their faiths.

Of course, me met with world leaders, including 4 US Presidents, Soviet Prime Ministers, Yassar Arrafat, Fidel Castro, and many many more.

Now I am not Catholic, but I can still recognize a good man when I see him.  Of course I do not agree with everything he did or said, but I think he did FAR more good things then things I dissagree with.


Thanks for supplying this list, I (as a non-catholic) was wondering what all the fuss was about. I understand he was the figurehead for the catholic church during his reign, but does anyone know what his accomplishments were during that time? Yes, he may have been the first Pope to visit a synagogue etc, but did any permanent improvement result from that? I've heard lots of talk of him being a 'great' Pope, but I can't see anything that would distinguish his actions as such. Can anyone advise me what acheivements class him as a 'great' Pope, or have all his predecessors been completely inactive?

(this is not meant to offend catholics, I just don't know how you discern a 'great' Pope from an average one, and would like to know...)

(this is not meant to offend catholics, I just don't know how you discern a 'great' Pope from an average one, and would like to know...)


No offense taken, goodsin.

From my point of view, JP2 was Great because of his impact on so many people, and because of his "outreach".  He was, first and foremost, a pastor.

Prior popes, such as Paul VI, tended to be Vatican bureaucrats whose parish consisted of the various knick-knacks on their office desks; they rarely left the Vatican.

JP2 was different.  He reached out.  He visted the ends of the earth, even to countries that had almost no Catholic population.  He cradled AIDS victims in his hands and prayed for them.

JP2 was "the people's Pope".  And because of that he was able to inspire the suppressed populations of Eastern Europe at just the right time to oversome their oppressive regimes.

JP2 was "non aligned".  He was equally comfortable with seeing the United States as an important bastion for the hope of freedom, but at the same time he had no problem HARSHLY criticizing us for other aspects that he saw as unholy and sinful.  He called it from his heart and not from some sort of "political spin analysis".  And you never saw him criticize the sinner.  Rather, he criticized sinful behaviour and always expressed hope for the souls of those who sin.

His outreach led to new relations with the Eastern Catholic rites, as well as other Christian and non Christian religions.  The fact that he was revered by Catholic and Protestant, Jew and Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist alike is evidence of his greatness.

JP2 will be a hard act to follow.  He was a man the likes of which the world may not see again for centuries.

Now on to the American molestation problem.  I certainly wish that he had been more effective at laying down the law with the American church heirarchy with this problem.  Maybe if he were a better bureaucrat he could have dealt with it better.  But when you view the body of his work and his impact on the world, it is clear that he was Great.

I am so proud to say that he was my Pope.  :)

prayed for them.

JP2 was "the people's Pope".  And because of that he was able to inspire the suppressed populations of Eastern Europe at just the right time to oversome their oppressive regimes.


Well, not exactly.  He collaborated with Reagan and the CIA to crush the populist Liberation Theology in Central America. 

I personally think that his death is being made way to big of a deal.  It is not because I am not of his religion or anything like that, but its because he was a man.  A Human being created by God just like the rest of us.  People are making such a big deal of it.  He wasn't God.

I personally think that his death is being made way to big of a deal. It is not because I am not of his religion or anything like that, but its because he was a man. A Human being created by God just like the rest of us. People are making such a big deal of it. He wasn't God.


True, he wasn't God, but he was the most influential person on Earth.

He has, or had, influence over the leaders of all the countries of the world.  And none of them can talk bad about him for fear of losing their Christian supporters.  If you still don't believe me, consider this:  Pope John Paul II was one of the major players in destroying communism.  Sure, people like Reagan helped, but the pope was the leader in all this.

I personally think that his death is being made way to big of a deal.  It is not because I am not of his religion or anything like that, but its because he was a man.  A Human being created by God just like the rest of us.  People are making such a big deal of it.  He wasn't God.


He was a good guy, though. Even me, a godless heathen like me, I'm sad to see him go. But I knew it was coming.

Well, not exactly.  He collaborated with Reagan and the CIA to crush the populist Liberation Theology in Central America. 


Communism was a "populist theology" in Russia in 1917 too.

As for so-called "Liberation Theology", it is completely out of sync with JP2's theology or the overall Respect for Life.

Liberation Theologists embrace violence as a method for social change.  JP2 only "justified" violence in the case of imminent physical threat (such as the liberation of Kuwait which had been attacked).  Thus his exhortations to the IRA to stop the violence, and his opposition to the death penalty, abortion, and the Iraq war.  These positions all stemmed from the same principles of the sanctity of life.

Check out the attached link and it is not very hard to see why JP2 would oppose liberation theology. http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Liberation.html

I still think that his death is being made to big and thats all.  I am sure he was a great man but still.  It just doesn't make sense to me.

Consider this:  (I feel like Bill Nye)

Pope John Paul II was the leader of the world's largest religion.  Sure, not all Christians are Catholic, but the pope represents the Christian Church on the global scene.  So when the pope dies, a powerful politician needs to be replaced.  If the President dies, it would create an outpouring of grief, but not as widespread as if he were the pope.  After all, in most minds, the pope does more good than any president.

Not sure where I was going with that, but I'll post it anyhow.  Get some reactions off of it.

I understand that part.  I guess that it is different having so many people mourn over someone they really didn't personally know.  I guess we would be the same if the president were to die.

I understand that part.  I guess that it is different having so many people mourn over someone they really didn't personally know.  I guess we would be the same if the president were to die.


look what they did for Reagan, and he was just a former president. He was worshipped like a monarch, and this is suppoed to be a republic.

Yes I agree on that one as well.  I think that famous people should be treated just like any other person.  I dont suppose you are going to plaster it all over the news that I a 14 year old teen died.  Weird I believe.

Well of course it is going to affect people worldwide becuase he wasnt a leader of a nation he was a leader of a religion so therefore there is going to be worldwide mourning.

I think what you are trying to say is that his death not only affected those in the US, it affected people worldwide. ;) At least, that's what I got out of it....


Sort of...but not quite.  The death of G-Dub would cause change for the world as well, especially in Iraq.  (But then again, I have no idea what Dick Cheney thinks, or if he's even still alive.)  I think what I was trying to say was that both the president and the pope are powerful.  However, there is not much arguement as to whether Pope John Paul II did good things with his power.  If the president died, however, there would be much debate and people would be split.

I think I weakened my point by explaining it clearly, but oh well.

Okay so he was a good man, but I dont think that people need to be worshipping him like he was God or something.  He was someone God put on this earth.  Not the Christ coming back or anything such as that.  I just dont understand I guess.

Okay so he was a good man, but I dont think that people need to be worshipping him like he was God or something.  He was someone God put on this earth.  Not the Christ coming back or anything such as that.  I just dont understand I guess.


you would have to understand the catholic mind. they worship mortals as saints from God totally ignoring the first commandment.

So they are not really of God then because they do not follow one of His commandments.  Hmmm, sounds a bit odd if you ask me!

Hmm sounds to me like a complicated religion and nothing I want to be apart of.

Actually, Catholics don't worship saints.  They honor them, but don't worship them in the sense that God is worshipped.


many of the earlier saints were canonized pagan gods so that it would be easier to convert the masses.

I always learned that the first ones were martyrs - some who were "recognized" by the "Church" and some who were just "local" (for lack of a better term) and only known in certain areas; and that the first "official" saint was canonized somewhere around 1000 A.D.  I've never heard of any "god" being canonized by the Catholic church ???


two that i know of: st. bridget and st. cornely. st. cornely is the green man of irish legend, herne the hunter. there are more, my wiccan exgf and former catholic once showed me a list of the co-opting of her beliefs by the roman church. of coarse there's the holidays of halloween and christmas and the dark origins of santa claus and the symbols of easter. all pagan and all absorbed and repackaged for a christian audience.

hmmmm.  I whipped out my mom's old book (copyright 1958) of Catholilc Saints because you piqued my curiousity.  According to it, BOTH Bridget (a former Swedish princess) & Cornely (which is, I'm assuming short for Cornelius as there's no Cornely listed) were real people.  Cornelius was archbishop of Ireland.
Now, the holidays, I knew that there was no coincidence that they all coincide with pagan holidays.;)


and why would a book written by catholics for catholics reveal the dark truth of the matter. history is, afterall, written by the conquerers. i suggest, if your interested, to go to any esoteric book store and resaech the matter there or look around the net on reputable websites on paganism.

I personally think that Catholics are just people who like to follow other people and not God.

well I just think that they think that the only way to God is through other people when that is not the truth.  I have nothing against them.

Such as them going into confession.  I sort of dont agree with that.  I think that if they have stuff they want to confess they can take it straight to God themselves.  I am not trying to be mean or anything.

I am a bit confused right now.  So you are saying that you HAVE to confess to someone else?  I thought that it was okay just to go to God personally and do it?

Now, if you're saying that the ENTIRE Christian religion "steals" from Paganism, then I guess you've exposed the Bible as a "story" that was made up by men and therefore cannot be the word of God as "God" as the Christians know him does not exist in Paganism.


i'm not saying that at all. there's enough real people who made an influence in the catholic religion to make it a religion that's unique, even christ was real. i'm just saying that the early church during the dark ages had to canonize pagan gods to make the church believable to the people they were trying to convert.

In the Catholic religion, yes.  Even in the Bible, some sinners confessed their sins to someone else (usually Jesus).  And, just like all the other sacraments :baptizm, marriage, communion, confirmation, unction, holy orders, it must be performed by another person.  As I said above, you cannot marry yourself, baptize yourself, give yourself communion, etc. so why should confession of your sins be any different?

So I have been hearing a lie from my church?  Oh my!  This is not good.

I'm just telling you what the Catholic Church believes and it makes sense to me.  I mean, why would penance be the only sacrament you can do to yourself?  It seems to me that if it was that easy, then why would anyone bother to NOT sin?

I understand.  I am just starting to think maybe I heard something wrong.  I will talk to someone from my church tonight.

All the Catholic saints were mortals, not "gods".  Other saints, I can't say, but the Catholic ones were all real people.


i agree. history tells us the vast majority of catholic saints were real people.

Well who would you think they were?  Angels?  Deamonds?  I would think they would be people?  Or is there something that I am missing?

Well who would you think they were?  Angels?  Deamonds?  I would think they would be people?  Or is there something that I am missing?


if you read earlier in this thread i said that the roman catholics used to canonize (make someone a saint) pagan gods when the church was going about the rest of europe in the 5th and 6th centuries trying to convert the masses. by canonizing their gods they legitmised them for veneration and made converting those much easier.

you have to understand that christianity was still new to europe 500 years after christ died and the roman catholics were only few in number compared to the rest of pagan europe. since the roman empire was still fresh in the pagan minds and the atrocities that the roman empire did to them by waging war and demanding tithes on the conquered, the early catholic missionaries had to "sell" the pagan peoples this new church. if those missionaries went to people preaching fire and brimstone they would have ended up with their heads on a stick. by canonizing their gods they made the newly converted welcomed into the christian faith.

as the centuries wore on, ordinary people became saints by extolling christian virtues.

Okay now I think that I understand.  I guess I am not that wise about things.