What the F**K!http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20050321185409990006

When will this madness stop....when our government gets the GUTS to stand up to the NRA....

Where were the boy's family when he left for school that day!?!

I'm beginning to think for some kids...school is reading,writing,arithmetic.....and violence...

It's been a while since the last serious school shooting in Colorado. Just more sad evidence that National Security isn't doing it's job of protecting us. :(

when our government gets the GUTS to stand up to the NRA....


Oh yeah that's it.  If only guns were illegal he would have looked at the gun and said "man I want to shoot everyone and kill myself...but it's illegal to have a gun."  ::)

Any news as to what his reasoning was? Did he leave a note or anything?

Ah the school shooting spree...it's as American as Apple pie and college football. And they will continue for as long as the 'second ammendment' is in place. But I guess the yanks still haven't learnt THAT lesson.

Ah the school shooting spree...it's as American as Apple pie and college football. And they will continue for as long as the 'second ammendment' is in place. But I guess the yanks still haven't learnt THAT lesson.

There all comin' after you now, bayin' like hounds!
  :o

Guns don't kill people, people use guns to kill people.  It's easier than defenestration.

Ah the school shooting spree...it's as American as Apple pie and college football.

Yeah.  They are an everyday thing.  The fact this this is being reported shows how rare it has become in the great United States of America.

Yeah. They are an everyday thing. The fact this this is being reported shows how rare it has become in the great United States of America.
A lot of crimes committed that involve guns do NOT make the national news.....or the networks would be SWAMPED in 'breaking news stories'....

A lot of crimes committed that involve guns do NOT make the national news.....or the networks would be SWAMPED in 'breaking news stories'....


I'm talking about school shootings.  School shootings are a rare thing, that is why this is being reported.  If it was a common thing, the media would simply ignore it.

Getting rid of guns isn't the answer.  There would still be ways of getting ahold of them.  Look at all the illegal substances that people can buy every day. 

This is a sad story.  According to the news this morning, he had shot his grandparents before going to school.  His father is dead and his mother is in a care center after a brain injury.  I just wish there was a way to see this sort of thing coming so he could have gotten the help he needed. 

Getting rid of guns isn't the answer.  There would still be ways of getting ahold of them.  Look at all the illegal substances that people can buy every day. 
I agree with this. The overwhelming majority of gun owners in this country are responsible, law-abiding adults, and they shouldn't be punished for the actions of a few deranged individuals. This is not a Second Amendment issue, IMO. This is just a symptom of a larger problem. What is causing people to blow their gaskets and go on shooting rampages? I don't know.
     But I will tell you this: I firmly believe that sooner or later, someone with the same mindset as this kid or the Columbine shooters--someone who is so filled with anger and hatred for society that they want to go out with a blaze of glory and take as many people with them--will put two and two together and realize that shooting up their school or workplace is small potatoes, and instead they will link up with al-Qaeda and attempt a catastrophic terrorist attack in this country. I think that the next 9/11 will be carried out by white boys. (And let's not forget what Timothy McVeigh did.)

I heard about this kid on the news. They say he was laughing and smiling whilst he shot. Wow... something had to have been wrong with him...

Did you happen to notice in the reports that the boy "blasted his way throught the school's metal detector?  When I was a kid, there were metal detectors at airports and maybe some courthouses, and that was about it as far as metal detectors in public places.
Today, there are metal detectors in public schools in places as tiny and remote as the Red Lake Indian Reservation.

There is something severely wrong in the United States.  A fish rots from the head down.  The government is run strictly on behalf of businessmen and the rich, not the average American.  More and more Americans of all stripes feel frightened, lost, wrathful, and alienated.  Maybe it is time for American to reset its social and political priorities.

another troubled teen falls through the cracks and ends up with a body count. the issue is not guns, it's neglecting problem children. there were warning signs and everyone in that community failed to notice.

Okay accepted the issue is not wholly about guns but, come on - how many people do you reckon he would have killed with a knife? 1 maybe two? Yet again i guess he just got his guns from his grandfathers perfectly legal arsenal.

I was surprised bow and arrows weren't used

I was surprised bow and arrows weren't used


Yeah... really surprising. I, for one, am shocked that a Native American would use anything else to kill someone. By "shoot" are we sure the media didn't mean "scalp?"  ::)

The kid turned out to a neo-nazi, Adolf Hitler worshipper who was into the gothic subculture.

Another idiot.

Okay accepted the issue is not wholly about guns but, come on - how many people do you reckon he would have killed with a knife? 1 maybe two? Yet again i guess he just got his guns from his grandfathers perfectly legal arsenal.

Disgraceful.  Another someone died so let's ban it type thing.  Just like fireworks in New York, and now axes in England.  Also lawn darts and gel sweets candy.  Remember gel sweets?  One stupid 11-year-old girl chockes to death on them because she thought they melt in your mouth and they get banned in America.

My guess is that he would have gotten the gun, banned or not.  The gun was his grandfather's former service revolver (he was a police officer.)  Without the gun, he may have made a bomb.  Then what?  Ban gasoline and gunpowder?

We see with the war on drugs that banning something doesn't work.  It doesn't work.  A sizeable minority would never give up their guns, despite what the government says.  The highest gun crime rate in America is in the city of Washington DC, where it's illegal to own any gun (for obvious reasons, ie the president.)

To take rights away from 35% of Americas (the percentage of Americans who own at least one firearm) because of some idiots is absurb and a violation on the bill of rights.

It's a rare thing, but I agree with GWB2004 on this. Not about the neo-nazi goth bit (people in glass houses etc), but it does seem a terrible knee-jerk reaction to call for banning guns over this. Dagwood hit the nail on the head in an earlier post, it would be better to have a social set-up where the mental state of this person was noted, before it got to the stage where he had to kill people to express his distress.

Oh yeah that's it.  If only guns were illegal he would have looked at the gun and said "man I want to shoot everyone and kill myself...but it's illegal to have a gun."  ::)


I have to agree, Handguns are illegal here, it didn't stop a kid at my old school shooting somebody.

wearing dark and listening to dark music does not make someone goth. that was an outsider making an assumption. goths are romantics, they would more likely kill themselves before hurting someone else.

the neo-nazi thing confused me at first. why would a non-white kid admire hitler? i read that he believed in racial purity for his own race. but then i read that there are many confused individuals out there who are jewish, black, gay and other targeted minorities that call themselves nazi, the need to believe in power corrupts weak minds.

speaking as a first nation person, this type of murder is very rare, many native murders are domestic, gang related or suicides. this individual was ignored by his people and the eldars should have seen the signs. i'm assuming alcohol and substance abuse is a big issue on the red lake indian reserve, i guess that must have made people not care and let this kid do what he did. i'm waiting for the reprecussions to hit up here in manitoba and how aboriginal leaders are going to deal with these murders and the likelyhood of it happening here.

they was his guy in scotlan in the u.k back in 1995 who shot (11 kids) in a school.
i suppose if you put guns in the hands off the made s**t happens.  >:(

wearing dark and listening to dark music does not make someone goth. that was an outsider making an assumption. goths are romantics, they would more likely kill themselves before hurting someone else.
THANK YOU!  I was Goth before Goth was cool.  Heck, I was Goth before Goth was called Goth!  I was outcast for being different, non-conformist.  I was alienated and depressed.
"I wear black on the outside because black is how I feel on the inside..."
--Morrissey

When people blame tastes in attire and music for anti-social behavior it remindes me of the '80s with Tipper Gore and her misguided Parents Music Resource Center.

I have said before that "high school" is an inherently pathological environment.  High school is socially bad for young people.  It is just as bad for the cocky basketball star and the Barbie Doll cheerleader as it is for the nerd, the burnout, and the Goth in the black trench coat.  Teenagers shouldn't be crammed into one building all day where they form bogus hierarchies and cliques.  Teenagers would be much better off in more individualist settings with their learning done in apprenticeships among adults.  Young men and women emerge from American high schools with no desire to act like adults.  They come to my town to go to the University and take high school with them.  It's very sad.

the neo-nazi thing confused me at first. why would a non-white kid admire hitler? i read that he believed in racial purity for his own race. but then i read that there are many confused individuals out there who are jewish, black, gay and other targeted minorities that call themselves nazi, the need to believe in power corrupts weak minds.
Given the absolutely inept job public school curricula do at teaching history, it's no surprise that rageful kids find Hitler and Nazism intriguing.  If their teachers had impressed upon them the true horror of the atrocities committed by the Nazi regime, kids would want nothing to do with Nazism no matter how angry they are.

speaking as a first nation person, this type of murder is very rare, many native murders are domestic, gang related or suicides. this individual was ignored by his people and the eldars should have seen the signs. i'm assuming alcohol and substance abuse is a big issue on the red lake indian reserve, i guess that must have made people not care and let this kid do what he did. i'm waiting for the reprecussions to hit up here in manitoba and how aboriginal leaders are going to deal with these murders and the likelyhood of it happening here.

The Red Lake area is about the poorest part of Minnesota.  Indiginous people are well aware of what has been done to them, and what continues to be done to them.  This creates an undercurrent of rage and despair.  Neither of these emotions tend to be expressed in positive ways.

The kid turned out to a neo-nazi, Adolf Hitler worshipper who was into the gothic subculture.


Psuedo-Gothic... figures.

they was his guy in scotlan in the u.k back in 1995 who shot (11 kids) in a school.
i suppose if you put guns in the hands off the made s**t happens.  >:(



Dublane, that was...I think it may have been 1996...

Whatever - it did speed the legislation along with regard to banning certain types of firearm without a licence over here...

Not that it matters much - you can still get hold of illegal firearms if you know where to look...

Nonetheless, the events in Red Lake were altogether tragic - my heart goes out to the victims...

Dublane, that was...I think it may have been 1996...

Whatever - it did speed the legislation along with regard to banning certain types of firearm without a licence over here...

Not that it matters much - you can still get hold of illegal firearms if you know where to look...


Exactly the point!

Getting Firearms is not a problem.

Here in Leicester (and Leicester is not by any stretch of the imagination a big city) gun crime is not only prevelant but increasing nearly 3 fold every year.

And Handguns are illegal here.

Oh i think it was more than 11 that died in Dunblane.

Okay go on - have your guns. Blow your brains out until eternity as far as i care. America will never give over its guns - blah blah blah. Its your society so if you want to feel safer at night with a gun under your pillow go fer it. I dunno but the only person I know of who has been killed by a gun in my experience was a mentally unstable ex-school friend who went along to a licensed gun club, got given a gun on a firing range and promptly put it in his mouth and blew his brains out. Maybe that and things like Dunblane, Hungerford and what happened in Columbine and that school this week make me nervous about guns being 'legal' in society. I don't recall any of the guns being illegally owned even if they were the property of the parents in some cases. Call me irrational i don't give a hoot but yeah I know people kill people, they keep doing it all the time - guns just make it a hell of a lot easier.

Okay go on - have your guns. Blow your brains out until eternity as far as i care. America will never give over its guns - blah blah blah. Its your society so if you want to feel safer at night with a gun under your pillow go fer it. I dunno but the only person I know of who has been killed by a gun in my experience was a mentally unstable ex-school friend who went along to a licensed gun club, got given a gun on a firing range and promptly put it in his mouth and blew his brains out. Maybe that and things like Dunblane, Hungerford and what happened in Columbine and that school this week make me nervous about guns being 'legal' in society. I don't recall any of the guns being illegally owned even if they were the property of the parents in some cases. Call me irrational i don't give a hoot but yeah I know people kill people, they keep doing it all the time - guns just make it a hell of a lot easier.

I hear ya, UKV!  I get pretty exasperated with these gun-o-philes myself.  The best they could say after Columbine was, "Well, if everybody in the school was armed, the shooters would have been shot before they could shoot anybody."  See?  Can't be caught out there!
Most yanks probably don't remember the Hungerford massacre of Aug.19, 1987,  in which a 27-year-old laborer, Michael Robert Ryan,  blew away seventeen people (including his mum) in one frenzied afternoon.  He then shot himself dead.  He had a big collection of firearms, all of the legal and registered.
The Firearms Amendment Act of 1988 followed.
http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/michael_ryan/2.html?sect=8

The nutter in Dunblane killed 18 people--sixteen pre-schoolers, a teacher, and himself.  After that massacre, the Firearms Act was further amended in 1997.  I'd have to look up the exact legislation, but I think it required all British citizens to hand over their handguns.  You can still go shooting in a gun club, but you can't keep the guns personally.  Something like that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_Massacre

The kid turned out to a neo-nazi, Adolf Hitler worshipper who was into the gothic subculture.

Another idiot.

Disgraceful.  Another someone died so let's ban it type thing.  Just like fireworks in New York, and now axes in England.  Also lawn darts and gel sweets candy.  Remember gel sweets?  One stupid 11-year-old girl chockes to death on them because she thought they melt in your mouth and they get banned in America.

My guess is that he would have gotten the gun, banned or not.  The gun was his grandfather's former service revolver (he was a police officer.)  Without the gun, he may have made a bomb.  Then what?  Ban gasoline and gunpowder?

We see with the war on drugs that banning something doesn't work.  It doesn't work.  A sizeable minority would never give up their guns, despite what the government says.  The highest gun crime rate in America is in the city of Washington DC, where it's illegal to own any gun (for obvious reasons, ie the president.)

To take rights away from 35% of Americas (the percentage of Americans who own at least one firearm) because of some idiots is absurb and a violation on the bill of rights.



I agree with GWBush2004???  :o I do agree with gun control (not prohibition) and wholeheartledly despise the NRA, but prohibition very rarely works.

I dunno but the only person I know of who has been killed by a gun

There you go, I don't know anyone who has been killed by a gun.  Remember America has a lower assult, robbery, and rape rate than Great Britain.  And over half of all home invasions in Britain take place while the homer owner is home, while only 12% of America's home invasions take place while the home owner is home.

We see this with drugs in America.  Pot, meth, cocaine....they're all over the place.  Yet they are all banned.  Don't tell me banning something works, we see it with the war on drugs.  We see it with fireworks here in the state of Georgia, people just drive to Alabama, Tennessee, Florida, and South Carolina, and smuggle them right back in this state.  That's why all the fireworks stands in the states around Georgia are just barely over the state border.  We lose no telling how much tax money and economy money to those other states.  The police don't even care.

Psuedo-Gothic... figures.


Here is a google cache showing the posts that Jeff Weise (the shooter) made on a Nazi website.  Read his posts at the following link: http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:Dlr86foA5hcJ:www.nazi.org/current/forum/YaBB.cgi%3Fboard%3Dnativeamerican%3Baction%3Dprint%3Bnum%3D1079672948%20%22jeff%20weise%22&hl=en

There you go, I don't know anyone who has been killed by a gun.  Remember America has a lower assult, robbery, and rape rate than America.  And over half of all home invasions in Britain take place while the homer owner is home, while only 12% of America's home invasions take place while the home owner is home.

We see this with drugs in America.  Pot, meth, cocaine....they're all over the place.  Yet they are all banned.  Don't tell me banning something works, we see it with the war on drugs.

OK, guns make us safer from assault, robbery, rape, and home invasion than over in Limeyland.  I'll tell you, that's some tough country.  When I got off the train in the city of Carlisle I feared for my life! (lotta sarcasm)
I spent days walking all over London.  I took the Tube and the buses everywhere at all hours and was never even hassled.  OK, so maybe all the hooligans make a concerted effort not to bother anybody who looks like he might be a tourist.
Anyway, if the U.S. has a lower crime rate because of guns, in one crime, murder by gun, our rate is a thousand times higher than the U.K.  I guess everything has its price!
::)

OK, guns make us safer from assault, robbery, rape, and home invasion than over in Limeyland.  I'll tell you, that's some tough country.  When I got off the train in the city of Carlisle I feared for my life! (lotta sarcasm)
I spent days walking all over London.  I took the Tube and the buses everywhere at all hours and was never even hassled.  OK, so maybe all the hooligans make a concerted effort not to bother anybody who looks like he might be a tourist.
Anyway, if the U.S. has a lower crime rate because of guns, in one crime, murder by gun, our rate is a thousand times higher than the U.K.  I guess everything has its price!
::)


Again, may I point out that the nation's highest gun crime rate is in Washington DC, the only place where all guns are banned (because of the President.)  The left blames it on Virginia and Maryland, I blame it on the the idiots who wanted to protect our elected representatives back in 1976.

The representatives know this as well.  Since Washington DC is not a state they can't dictate their laws.  So a member of the US house of representatives filed a bill last year to allow all guns in Washington DC.  The bill passed the US House by a vote of 250-174.  When it was set to pass the US Senate and go to President Bush who said he would sign the bill, the bill's filer dropped his name from the bill (he never gave a reason as far as I remember) and the bill died without a vote in the US Senate.  The bill has a new sponser and has been filed again this year, let's work to restore gun rights to the District of Columbia, to help reduce gun crime!

You've written before you don't support banning all guns upright.  So what then?  Ban .50 caliber rifles like Barney Frank (Herr Frank) is trying (dead bill walking) in Washington now?  Bring back that bogus assult weapons ban (Bob Barr's words, not mine.)  How much must we water down the second amendment to the US Constitution?

There you go, I don't know anyone who has been killed by a gun.  Remember America has a lower assult, robbery, and rape rate than Great Britain.  And over half of all home invasions in Britain take place while the homer owner is home, while only 12% of America's home invasions take place while the home owner is home.

We see this with drugs in America.  Pot, meth, cocaine....they're all over the place.  Yet they are all banned.  Don't tell me banning something works, we see it with the war on drugs.  We see it with fireworks here in the state of Georgia, people just drive to Alabama, Tennessee, Florida, and South Carolina, and smuggle them right back in this state.  That's why all the fireworks stands in the states around Georgia are just barely over the state border.  We lose no telling how much tax money and economy money to those other states.  The police don't even care.
We used to lose a lot of money to Florida before they finaly let Georgia have the Lotto, I notice you have the new Georgia flag as your avatar, what did you think about the change in the flag without the public's vote?

Psuedo-Gothic... figures.


I have to say that i loathe this comment, do you actually believe that being of any Gothic sub-culture makes someone likely to do something like shoot up a school, you friend need to do some research.

I would consider myself to be a Goth but not in the way that media spins it, i don't go around in black and dark colours or worship Satan or all this bulls**t.

Gothic subculture should be about admiration and respect for the darker things that others do not see and showing and feeling emoticons without shame.

We see death as a gift given to those who have survived life, we do not want to go out and kill people because of this, most of us wouldn't even dream of killing ourselves, we like literature (reading and writing it), music, horror, we are people like any other we just have diffrent views, we are mostly like the old romantic's.

This doesn't mean people who call themselves goth's don't do anything wrong we all make mistakes but mistakes like any other person.

If a someone calling themselves a goth kills someone most of us 'real' Goths would be absolutely appalled, we don't want this to go on under our name (or any for that matter) just like you wouldn't want someone claiming to be of your culture and killing people, its ob-sured.

people who think that wearing black and listening to cradle of filth makes them goth need a good lesson in sub-culture we would call these people 'wannabes' alot of the Goths i know (including me) wear white alot, maybe black shoes or jeans but not completely black, we wear eye-liner not lipstick and all that we are into music of a classical nature like lacrimosa and deine lakaien not cradle of filth or slipknot or any of that rubbish.

as for the if you listen to Marilyn Manson you = goth that to is ob-sured, YES i listen to Marilyn Manson
but i don't think that makes me goth, i enjoy his music i think he is a great artist, a good example of anti-government (only corrupt government and corrupt law enforcement) but in no way would i consider him to be what goth stands for.

I'll end there for this post, hope I've enlightened some people as to the horrible misconception's
(i told you in my welcome I'm very opinionated)

thanks for reading.  :D ;D

I notice you have the new Georgia flag as your avatar, what did you think about the change in the flag without the public's vote?


No I didn't, Sonny Perdue obviously broke his campaign promise over that.  But at the same time I don't really care about the flag issue, it's just this could have been neutralized for good had he put every flag on the ballot and made the vote binding.

If a someone calling themselves a goth kills someone most of us 'real' Goths would be absolutely appalled, we don't want this to go on under our name (or any for that matter) just like you wouldn't want someone claiming to be of your culture and killing people, its ob-sured.

So you are a "real" goth, meaning you can trace your ancestral roots back to the gothic barbarian tribes that helped overthrow the Roman Empire. From what I've seen of people who call theirselves goth is nothing like the history of gothic people, they were very warlike people so I would guess that some of your modern goths would adopt this lifestyle as well. I see a band like Cradle of Filth as being black metal and have no idea why you would put slip knot into the same category. I personally like black metal and death metal, I know most people would concider this music to be satanic and a lot of the lyrics are satanic but you don't have to be satanic to listen to it, just like you don't have to be goth to listen to gothic music  ;)

So you are a "real" goth, meaning you can trace your ancestral roots back to the gothic barbarian tribes that helped overthrow the Roman Empire. From what I've seen of people who call theirselves goth is nothing like the history of gothic people, they were very warlike people so I would guess that some of your modern goths would adopt this lifestyle as well. I see a band like Cradle of Filth as being black metal and have no idea why you would put slip knot into the same category. I personally like black metal and death metal, I know most people would concider this music to be satanic and a lot of the lyrics are satanic but you don't have to be satanic to listen to it, just like you don't have to be goth to listen to gothic music  ;)


modern goths refer to the gothic period of the middle ages, the same age that influenced the architecture.

i listen to mostly goth and industrial, i read dark literature and consider myself a dark romantic. i'm no satanist, in fact i'm christian but i'm far from actually being goth, at least in the true sub-culture sense. it irks me when the common person sees anyone with any sort of remote interest in dark clothing and music and thinks that there goths. i mentioned this previously on this topic.

modern goths refer to the gothic period of the middle ages, the same age that influenced the architecture.

i listen to mostly goth and industrial, i read dark literature and consider myself a dark romantic. i'm no satanist, in fact i'm christian but i'm far from actually being goth, at least in the true sub-culture sense. it irks me when the common person sees anyone with any sort of remote interest in dark clothing and music and thinks that there goths. i mentioned this previously on this topic.
I could care less if a person is satanic or not as long as they are not going around killing and sacrificing people. From what I've read about "true satanism" is that it's a strong belief in yourself and you don't sacrifice and kill things. I read a lot of dark stuff, I don't like seeing people label theirselves as something that I feel they will "grow out of" in a few years, I've known many metal fans who have grown out of liking the music. How can you not like something anymore that was basically your life? If I ever find the light I'll also find the switch so I can turn the light off  ;D

I really dont understand the shooting.  Is the kid going to get in more trouble because at first he murdered his grandparents?  This is a unique and odd school shooting.

So you are a "real" goth, meaning you can trace your ancestral roots back to the Gothic barbarian tribes that helped overthrow the Roman Empire. From what I've seen of people who call theirselves goth is nothing like the history of Gothic people, they were very warlike people so I would guess that some of your modern Goths would adopt this lifestyle as well. I see a band like Cradle of Filth as being black metal and have no idea why you would put slip knot into the same category. I personally like black metal and death metal, I know most people would concider this music to be satanic and a lot of the lyrics are satanic but you don't have to be satanic to listen to it, just like you don't have to be goth to listen to Gothic music  ;)


yes on my mothers side of the family i can trace my ancestral roots back to the original Goths who lived on the delta of the river Danube on the Romanian coastline of the black sea.

and as for Goths being a war-like people you are correct the Visigoths were always waring with people most famously the romans (by the way the Goths had very little to do with the fall of the roman empire, and one tribe even helped them, alot of it was down to the two separate tribes of vandals also a Germanic tribe)

so yes people who think goth in terms of visi/Western Goths would maybe reflect a war like past

however it seems to me that your neglecting the ostro/eastern Goths who acted more as protectors you know the ones who moved to Italy  ::)

"when the Ostrogoth's went into Italy they wanted to adopt Roman culture and to be accepted and equals with the Romans. They helped protect the civilized world against other barbarians. Although the Ostrogoth's were a barbarian people, they fought against them."

"The most important Ostrogoth leader was Theodoric the Great, who reigned from AD 493 to 526. In 488 the Ostrogoth's were commissioned by the Emperor Zeno to attack Odoacer, a German usuper, in Italy. Odoacer surrendered in 493 on the condition that he was allowed to retain his half of the kingdom but he was killed by Theodoric, who then became sole ruler of Italy. Under Theodoric the old Roman law, taxation, and administrative systems were continued unbroken. There was also a great deal of PEACE and PROSPERITY. He attempted to secure good diplomatic relations with his German neighbors by offering his daughters and sons to their kings in marriage."

i made bold the part about peace and prosperity so you didn't miss it  :P
so if you thought in terms of the ostro/eastern Goths you may consider yourself a more peaceful person

Just trying to present both sides

And in case you care, when i think of goth i think of people who do what they have to to get the 'peace' they want within themselves (it's tragic to think that some people think killing themselves is the best way to do this) i think of a compromising people who respect the darker side of life (this could be related to the original Goths) and people who enjoy making/listening to music enjoy reading/writing poetry literature enjoy dressing a diffrent way like being diffrent from the 'norm' (this could be related to medieval Britain) so maybe I'm note pure goth in the sense that i don't follow all of the beliefs of the visi/ostro Goths but answer me this, What culture is still pure that has its root's thousands of years ago without change?, answer none.

modern goths refer to the gothic period of the middle ages, the same age that influenced the architecture.

That seems to be the general idea over here not alot of goths i've met even know that the goths were a tribe of people

I think that kid obviously had something mentally wrong.  The parents needed to be more aware of what he was doing.

I think that kid obviously had something mentally wrong. The parents needed to be more aware of what he was doing.


If I recall correctly he didn't have any parents around.  I think his dad had died and his mum was having some sort of long term hospital care.

If I recall correctly he didn't have any parents around.  I think his dad had died and his mum was having some sort of long term hospital care.


Who was montitoring him then?

Someone had to have noticed his behavior though!

Agreed. There HAD to have been someone.

I heard that some recognized his behavior but did nothing.  I know that here in my state and in my town, the behavior would be picked up and dealt with.  What wasnt it there?

He was living with his granfather because his dad committed suicide some years ago and his mother was in hospital.  there's more details here

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4371803.stm

Quite why any problems weren't picked up isn't clear.  Many of the things he did though are just the things that many teenagers do whilst trying find their role in life

he has had a rough start top life with all of that drama with his parents.  So I can understand his actions.  They could have been possibly a reach for attention or some sort of anger because of his father.  That is weird though.

Oh yeah that's it.  If only guns were illegal he would have looked at the gun and said "man I want to shoot everyone and kill myself...but it's illegal to have a gun."  ::)


Word. 

Sure, guns are too prevalent, but if you're psychotic, you're psychotic.  Yeah, maybe if it's harder to get hold of a gun, you don't kill 9 schoolmates... but you might stab your whole family while they're sleeping.  I don't know that that's a 'better outcome' just because the numbers are smaller...

I personally think that this kid would have killed all those people with a q tip if it was possible.  This had to be a long drawn out plan anyways or else he wouldnt have succeeded.

I heard that some recognized his behavior but did nothing.  I know that here in my state and in my town, the behavior would be picked up and dealt with.  What wasnt it there?


You never know... I know at least 3 people who you'd never expect that I could see doing something like that. Seriously.

Yeah there are some kids at my school i could see doing it, and all the teachers think is that they are joking and stuff when honestly, they could be being serious.

I heard that some recognized his behavior but did nothing.  I know that here in my state and in my town, the behavior would be picked up and dealt with.  What wasnt it there?

Often, people who are mentally disturbed don't necessarily want to advertise the fact, or have people 'help' them with it. I really don't know what sort of pre-cursors you would look for in someone who goes on such a killing spree, I can't imagine (if it was planned) that he went around telling people of his intentions. Even if someone's depressed, anxious, or angry, it's still not an indication that someone's going to go on a killing spree. If, on the other hand, he had stated his intentions beforehand, then it should definitely have been picked up.

"The clues were all there," said Kim DesJarlait, Mr. Weise's stepaunt, who lives in Minneapolis. "Everything was laid out, right there, for the school or the authorities in Red Lake to see it coming. I don't want to blame Red Lake, but did they not put two and two together? This kid was crying out, and those guys chose to ignore it. They need to start focusing on their kids."

Oh hush!  Why didn't they do something?  You're family -- if the clues were so frickin' obvious, where were you?  Geez, it's so lovely to blame other people isn't it?

Again, may I point out that the nation's highest gun crime rate is in Washington DC, the only place where all guns are banned (because of the President.)  The left blames it on Virginia and Maryland, I blame it on the the idiots who wanted to protect our elected representatives back in 1976.

The representatives know this as well.  Since Washington DC is not a state they can't dictate their laws.  So a member of the US house of representatives filed a bill last year to allow all guns in Washington DC.  The bill passed the US House by a vote of 250-174.  When it was set to pass the US Senate and go to President Bush who said he would sign the bill, the bill's filer dropped his name from the bill (he never gave a reason as far as I remember) and the bill died without a vote in the US Senate.  The bill has a new sponser and has been filed again this year, let's work to restore gun rights to the District of Columbia, to help reduce gun crime!

You've written before you don't support banning all guns upright.  So what then?  Ban .50 caliber rifles like Barney Frank (Herr Frank) is trying (dead bill walking) in Washington now?  Bring back that bogus assult weapons ban (Bob Barr's words, not mine.)  How much must we water down the second amendment to the US Constitution?


As long as the Second Amendment is valid, I don't think we can forbid U.S. citizens from owning guns.  However, the prevalence of gun ownership, and the easy access Americans have to guns--both legally and illegally--becomes very dangerous when you have a society as vicious as present-day America.  A lot of violence in America comes from the fact that the cabal of the super-rich act like gladiators as they pound the cr*p out of the average citizen day in and day out.  To protect their own selfish interests, the rich who control media and education have made "class" a vorboten discussion. 
The kids who did the Columbine massacre were treated like lepers by the rich and beautiful of the school.  The same phenomenon occurs in America at large.  This kid in Red Lake did not understand his own circumstances stemmed from classist oppression as much anything.

American culture is very toxic today.

If you are trying to imply by your "Herr Frank" remark that Representative Barney Frank is like a Nazi, then you are too silly to bother with.

As long as the Second Amendment is valid, I don't think we can forbid U.S. citizens from owning guns.  However, the prevalence of gun ownership, and the easy access Americans have to guns--both legally and illegally--becomes very dangerous when you have a society as vicious as present-day America.  A lot of violence in America comes from the fact that the cabal of the super-rich act like gladiators as they pound the cr*p out of the average citizen day in and day out.  To protect their own selfish interests, the rich who control media and education have made "class" a vorboten discussion. 
The kids who did the Columbine massacre were treated like lepers by the rich and beautiful of the school.  The same phenomenon occurs in America at large.  This kid in Red Lake did not understand his own circumstances stemmed from classist oppression as much anything.


Are you trying to say povery breeds crime?  Do you have any statistics to back up that cliam?

Are you trying to say povery breeds crime?  Do you have any statistics to back up that cliam?


Are you trying to say that poverty has no bearing on crime? I would offer some statistics that support the link between the two but seeing as they have only ever been produced by organisations which you would consider to be left wing such as the UN or UNICEF and the Milton Eisenhower Institute then it would seem pointless.

Furthermore it is not in the interests of any government to accept such a link between poverty and crime because that would make it preventable and their responsibility when crime occurs. It is much easier to ignore the underlying causes and merely villify and punish the individuals. We have to accept at some point that criminal behaviour is not, in most cases, innate. It is a learned behaviour from your environment. Now I am NOT making excuses for criminals by saying this - this is perfectly simple societal self-interest. I want to stop criminal behaviour before it occurs and I do believe from the papers I've read and my own experiences that poverty is a driving factor in encouraging criminal behaviour at the street level but it is not the only factor. Nothing is, sadly for those of us who might like a simple answer, black and white.

I don't want my car stolen, house broken into or my head split open by some drug-addled junkie, but just waiting for the crime to happen and then chucking them in jail day after day doen't seem to be solving the problem. So lets examine the environments that breed crime and try to eradicate as much as we can the conditions that drive it. Drugs, poverty, abuse, etc. all have a bearing on the individuals development and effect their sense of morality.

Perhaps the biggest cause of crime, or rather the 'catch-all' cause, is alienation from the society within which you are living. From Timothy McVeigh to that kid in Minnesota to the rapists and the muggers of little old ladies these people do not care about the people that they harm at the point at which they act. They may feel remorse or not at a later point but they are all venting anger in one way or another because they are disassociated from society in general.

So in the words of Tony Blair, which I'm still waiting for him to deliver upon, Lets be tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime.

Are you trying to say that poverty has no bearing on crime? I would offer some statistics that support the link between the two but seeing as they have only ever been produced by organisations which you would consider to be left wing such as the UN or UNICEF and the Milton Eisenhower Institute then it would seem pointless.

Furthermore it is not in the interests of any government to accept such a link between poverty and crime because that would make it preventable and their responsibility when crime occurs. It is much easier to ignore the underlying causes and merely villify and punish the individuals. We have to accept at some point that criminal behaviour is not, in most cases, innate. It is a learned behaviour from your environment. Now I am NOT making excuses for criminals by saying this - this is perfectly simple societal self-interest. I want to stop criminal behaviour before it occurs and I do believe from the papers I've read and my own experiences that poverty is a driving factor in encouraging criminal behaviour at the street level but it is not the only factor. Nothing is, sadly for those of us who might like a simple answer, black and white.

I don't want my car stolen, house broken into or my head split open by some drug-addled junkie, but just waiting for the crime to happen and then chucking them in jail day after day doen't seem to be solving the problem. So lets examine the environments that breed crime and try to eradicate as much as we can the conditions that drive it. Drugs, poverty, abuse, etc. all have a bearing on the individuals development and effect their sense of morality.

Perhaps the biggest cause of crime, or rather the 'catch-all' cause, is alienation from the society within which you are living. From Timothy McVeigh to that kid in Minnesota to the rapists and the muggers of little old ladies these people do not care about the people that they harm at the point at which they act. They may feel remorse or not at a later point but they are all venting anger in one way or another because they are disassociated from society in general.

So in the words of Tony Blair, which I'm still waiting for him to deliver upon, Lets be tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime.

I agree with you entirely, but you are taking your argument to a man who thinks Adolph Hitler was a liberal.
(nazi=National Socialist Party and liberal = socialist, therefore Hitler was a liberal)
He's not the only right-winger I've heard make this argument.  The American conservative movement is becomeing hysterically silly--but they are in charge of my country!!!
  :o :o :o

Unfortunately no amount of speculation and guesswork can ever tell us truly why this kid did what he did, it does seem that this kid was in desperate need of some help which he did not receive (to my knowledge) and this may be a part of it but we can never truly say.

there's a distrubing flash animation that is posted on newgrounds.org that is supposedly made by jeff weise. the admin is keeping it up for public record. the animation is about a shooter killing innocents and the police and it ends up with the shooter killing himself. this kid knew what he was going to do and left evidence on the net.

there's a distrubing flash animation that is posted on newgrounds.org that is supposedly made by jeff weise. the admin is keeping it up for public record. the animation is about a shooter killing innocents and the police and it ends up with the shooter killing himself. this kid knew what he was going to do and left evidence on the net.


Again read his posts on a Nazi forum at the following link: http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:Dlr86foA5hcJ:www.nazi.org/current/forum/YaBB.cgi%3Fboard%3Dnativeamerican%3Baction%3Dprint%3Bnum%3D1079672948%20%22jeff%20weise%22&hl=en

The posts made by "Todesengel" are Jeff Weise.  It's been confirmed.  "Todesengel" is death angel is german I think.  The posts were deleted, but thanks to google cache, we can read inside this freak's mind.  Here are his posts:

"Hello all.
My name is Jeff Weise, a Native American from the Red Lake "Indian" reservation in Minnesota. I'm interested in joining the group, as I support your ideals and even though I am young, I still want to join. What is the age requirement (if any)?"

and...

"Thank you.
What brings me to the forum? Well, I stumbled across the site in my study of the Third Reich as well as Nazism, amongst other things. I guess I've always carried a natural admiration for Hitler and his ideals, and his courage to take on larger nations. I also have a natural dis-like for communism.
When I was growing up, I was taught (like others) that Nazi's were (are) evil and that Hitler was a very evil man ect... Of course, not for a second did I believe this. Upon reading up on his actions, the ideals and issues the German Third Reich adressed, I began to see how much of a lie had been painted about them. They truly were doing it for the better.
It kind of angers me how people pass pre-judgement on someone if they even so much as say something like "I support what Hitler did," without even hearing what you have to say. This goes double if you're ethnic. I also hear things like, "oh he had syphilis, he was crazy and thats why he did what he did." Or, "he molested his neice," it's easy to see that even today people are trying to destroy the image of a man who deserves great respect..."

and...

"Once I commit myself to something, I stay until the end..."

and...

"Hmn, after a recent discussion with some misinformed people I had to ask you guys, why are people so close minded?
By the way, I'm being blamed for a threat on the school I attend because someone said they were going to shoot up the school on 4/20, Hitlers birthday, and just because I claim being a National Socialist, guess whom they've pinned?"

and finally...

"You encounter a lot of hostility when you claim to be a National Socialist, but because of my size and appearance people don’t give me as much trouble as they would if I looked weak. I already had a fist fight with a communist not to long ago over me being what I am (I also won), but it was worth it. I don’t try to hide what I am from anyone, if they’re going to start something over it then fine, I’m not backing down; Nor am I hiding. I try not to be aggressive in most situations, I’ll use force if I have to, but I’m not about to go out and pick a fight. I’m mostly defensive, I’ll defend myself if someone tries something but other than that I’m a peaceful person.
But the school threat passed and I was cleared as a suspect, I’m glad for that. I don’t much care for jail, I’ve never been there and I don’t plan on it.
Either way, I was wondering if there was a way to become a more active member, besides posting on this board I can’t really think of anything else to do. I could do some recruiting, but a lot of the people I socialize with are against Nazism whole-heartedly, I managed to sway a few opinions in the favor of the movement none the less, and there is also a few of my “friends” who only like Hitler because they think Nazi’s are “cool.” Which I agree with, don’t get me wrong, but they aren’t as serious about it as I am.
Any ideas?
I may young, but I’m willing to help."

Pretty chilling stuff, GWB, although I can't see what him being a Nazi has to do with the fact he killed people. I admire (but not venerate, or celebrate) Hitler for having the charisma to influence his compatriots to the degree he did, but I'd never seriously consider commiting a mass shooting.

What you've posted has prompted me to start a thread in the Playful Penguin Place, regarding Internet postings as a legacy of people's lives. 20 years ago, though this killer may have written his thoughts down, we'd probably not have got the details of this.

it seems he was an intelligent person, reading that and talented somewhat (if that animation is truly his). all i can say is that, despite a person's admiration towards history's greatest villian, it wouldn't lead to murder. thousands of people out there call themselves nazis, aryan or whatever and lead peaceful lives and wouldn't think of killing, even the minorities that they hate.

i guess jeff weise will remain an anomoly, whatever actions lead to his killings can only be speculated.

Someone made a parody: http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/228814

Oh, I thought there was yet another yet another school shooting spree in Minnesota.  Phew!  It's just old thread resurfacing.  I see GWB2004's account is still active!
:o ;D

http://www.newgrounds.com/collection/bastards.html