Check this out.

http://www.rutlandherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050318/NEWS/503180312/1039/OPINION03

The gist of it is that military preparedness is just a part of national defense.  China, by aquiring more and more of our national debt (second largest holder right now, and more, could reek hovoc with our economy.  And china is our next major competitor for world hegemony.  I don't know about the  rest of you, but I am not intererested in learning to speak Mandarin.

With 1.2 billion people, we Americans are just chump change.

It's all part of the selling of America.  The aristos are living in a world economy and have the means to go where the living is best for them.  Loyalty to the country is not on their agenda although they jump up and down and wave the flag while sending the working classes to fight wars that protect their dividends, and the working classes fall for it.

It's all part of the selling of America.  The aristos are living in a world economy and have the means to go where the living is best for them.  Loyalty to the country is not on their agenda although they jump up and down and wave the flag while sending the working classes to fight wars that protect their dividends, and the working classes fall for it.


Every time so far.  Maybe some day we will all learn who the real enemy is.  Certainly not the Chinese masses I hope, but it could very well come to that.  World War Three anyone?

It's all part of the selling of America.  The aristos are living in a world economy and have the means to go where the living is best for them.  Loyalty to the country is not on their agenda although they jump up and down and wave the flag while sending the working classes to fight wars that protect their dividends, and the working classes fall for it.

You said it 'Noota!
Couldn't have said it better myself!
:)

Did the link work?  No one has commented on it, and where is GWB2004?  I though he would be all over this one.

That is an excellent article that makes a lot of sense to me. The author is not only pointing out the folly of the current administration's policies but also putting forward proposals to mitigate the effects, e.g. $1 per gallon gasoline tax to fund the budget defecit rather than selling on debts to China. However (and I seem to be saying this a lot recently)....it's not going to happen!

It's interesting to compare the economic situation of the USA 100 years ago to that of China now. Consider the effect of that economic strength and how the USA has had such a massive influence on World politics throughout the 20th century; it's a sobering thought now that China (and India, by the way) look set to dominate World economics and politics in this century.

That is an excellent article that makes a lot of sense to me. The author is not only pointing out the folly of the current administration's policies but also putting forward proposals to mitigate the effects, e.g. $1 per gallon gasoline tax to fund the budget defecit rather than selling on debts to China. However (and I seem to be saying this a lot recently)....it's not going to happen!

It's interesting to compare the economic situation of the USA 100 years ago to that of China now. Consider the effect of that economic strength and how the USA has had such a massive influence on World politics throughout the 20th century; it's a sobering thought now that China (and India, by the way) look set to dominate World economics and politics in this century.


Sobering and scary.  We have all grown up with +/- US hegemony, but that could soon change.  Hope my grandkids can learn Chinese (I'm not sure which dialect).

Hope my grandkids can learn Chinese (I'm not sure which dialect).

I saw an item on the news recently about a private school here in the UK that is teaching Mandarin as a second language for exactly this  reason. The school isn't full of the children of Chinese expatriates, it's simply full of kids whose parents want them to have this advantage in their adult careers.

I saw an item on the news recently about a private school here in the UK that is teaching Mandarin as a second language for exactly this  reason. The school isn't full of the children of Chinese expatriates, it's simply full of kids whose parents want them to have this advantage in their adult careers.


A lot of schools here are teaching Mandarin.  Australians are being told all the time "we have to think of ourselves as Asian"  - you really wonder what's ahead ???

What's ahead is the Chinese century.  This could be either good or bad, but certainly different than the world we are use to.  Hard to imagine the US as a third world country.  I guess it doesn't hjave to be that way, but all the indications are there.

What's ahead is the Chinese century.  This could be either good or bad, but certainly different than the world we are use to.  Hard to imagine the US as a third world country.  I guess it doesn't hjave to be that way, but all the indications are there.
I agree with this, and it frightens me. Last summer I saw an episode of NOVA where they were discussing the massive expansion of China's industrial base, and how as a result the Chinese people are becoming more affluent. I remember as recently as 10 years ago seeing footage of thousands of Chinese commuting to their jobs in Beijing on bicycles. Today, more and more Chinese are being able to afford automobiles, and not just rinky-dink econocars either. They have an appetite for large, gas-guzzling SUV's, just like we do. They estimated that by 2020, there will be just as many if not more privately-owned cars in China than in the U.S. Methinks that there won't be enough petroleum to go around, and unless we can somehow quit dillydallying around and finally get off the oil tit, this will eventually lead to a conflict between China and the U.S.

I agree with this, and it frightens me. Last summer I saw an episode of NOVA where they were discussing the massive expansion of China's industrial base, and how as a result the Chinese people are becoming more affluent. I remember as recently as 10 years ago seeing footage of thousands of Chinese commuting to their jobs in Beijing on bicycles. Today, more and more Chinese are being able to afford automobiles, and not just rinky-dink econocars either. They have an appetite for large, gas-guzzling SUV's, just like we do. They estimated that by 2020, there will be just as many if not more privately-owned cars in China than in the U.S. Methinks that there won't be enough petroleum to go around, and unless we can somehow quit dillydallying around and finally get off the oil tit, this will eventually lead to a conflict between China and the U.S.




Yes, and since Alaska oil will mostly be marketed in China...

Not yet, but soon.

America shall become a land of theme parks in between rust, garbage, and miserable huddled masses!

China is what the USA was 100 years ago, and the USA is what England was 100 years ago, except our working classes do get a better shake.  We are going backwards socially and economically.  In the next generation the children and grandchildren of people who are displaying stickers that say speak English or get the f*ck out will be  struggling in Shanghai to learn the language.

As racist as this sounds,  I really hope we're not forced to adopt Chinese culture, i.e. speak the language, watch their movies, listen to their music, etc.  Even though it's probably very Americanized now.  I'm not really a big fan of Far Eastern art and culture, except for martial arts and the food!

As racist as this sounds,  I really hope we're not forced to adopt Chinese culture, i.e. speak the language, watch their movies, listen to their music, etc.  Even though it's probably very Americanized now.  I'm not really a big fan of Far Eastern art and culture, except for martial arts and the food!



You'll have to take that up with the Walton family (I mean the Wal-Mart Waltons not the TV Waltons) because they are providing China with the economic powerhouse it needs to export Chinese imperialism once again. 
I don't think the Chinese are interested in imposing their culture on us.  There's no need to as long as they've got all our money.  The Romans succeeded this way for centuries.  Keep your language, religion, and customs, but pay us our tribute or we'll crucify a hundred thousand of you!
:o

You'll have to take that up with the Walton family (I mean the Wal-Mart Waltons not the TV Waltons) because they are providing China with the economic powerhouse it needs to export Chinese imperialism once again. 
I don't think the Chinese are interested in imposing their culture on us.  There's no need to as long as they've got all our money.  The Romans succeeded this way for centuries.  Keep your language, religion, and customs, but pay us our tribute or we'll crucify a hundred thousand of you!
:o


So is America gonna be the next Tibet then?

So is America gonna be the next Tibet then?

Yeah...and Paris Hilton will be our Dalai Lama!
:D

The gist of it is that military preparedness is just a part of national defense.  China, by aquiring more and more of our national debt (second largest holder right now, and more, could reek hovoc with our economy.  And china is our next major competitor for world hegemony.  I don't know about the  rest of you, but I am not intererested in learning to speak Mandarin.


My problem with China is their horrid record of human rights.

I think that their MFN status should be pulled immediately.  The granting may have seemed like a good idea at the time, because with this status more of their people would benefit, and they would have to ease up.  But the opposite has actually happened.

In fact, the day that President Bush Sr. asked Congress to renew MFN status, China killed over 4,000 of it's own people during a peaceful protest in Tiananmen Square.

And the recent coal disasters shows just how bad things are there for their citizens.  over 80% of mine deaths worldwide occur in China.  Even with the recent disasters in our own country, China lost more people last year then were lost in the US over the last 10 years.

In my mind, they have simply shown themselves (The politicians, not the Chinese people) to be barbarians, simply out for their own interests and not those of their people.  And unless they start to show more consideration for their own citizens, they do not deserve equal trading rights with our country.

My problem with China is their horrid record of human rights.

I think that their MFN status should be pulled immediately.  The granting may have seemed like a good idea at the time, because with this status more of their people would benefit, and they would have to ease up.  But the opposite has actually happened.

In fact, the day that President Bush Sr. asked Congress to renew MFN status, China killed over 4,000 of it's own people during a peaceful protest in Tiananmen Square.

And the recent coal disasters shows just how bad things are there for their citizens.  over 80% of mine deaths worldwide occur in China.  Even with the recent disasters in our own country, China lost more people last year then were lost in the US over the last 10 years.

In my mind, they have simply shown themselves (The politicians, not the Chinese people) to be barbarians, simply out for their own interests and not those of their people.  And unless they start to show more consideration for their own citizens, they do not deserve equal trading rights with our country.


Yeah, you're right. But we'll never do that. Three words: Mutually assured destruction. If the feds were to make moves that would negatively impact China's commerce with our economy, that could be very damaging to them. Especially considering their relationship with Wal-Mart. And in that case, why wouldn't they sell off all their dollars and cause massive inflation here? If we were to restrict trading rights, we'd ALREADY be seeing inflation in prices of consumer goods since we buy so much cheap crap from there.

Yeah, you're right. But we'll never do that. Three words: Mutually assured destruction. If the feds were to make moves that would negatively impact China's commerce with our economy, that could be very damaging to them. Especially considering their relationship with Wal-Mart. And in that case, why wouldn't they sell off all their dollars and cause massive inflation here? If we were to restrict trading rights, we'd ALREADY be seeing inflation in prices of consumer goods since we buy so much cheap crap from there.


In other words, money is more important to you then human rights?

I thought that I was the Capitolist Pig, who only cared about money.  Personally, I could not care less about that.  I am sure that China would be much worse off then we would be.  And we could get our goods from other nations that need the money just as badly, like Philippines, Thailand, Malaysia, and Taiwan.  Sure we might hurt for a while, but we will recover.  What will happen to China when it looses it's #1 trading partner, and has nobody to take it's place?

Try reading The Dragon And The Bear by Tom Clancy.  I think he accurately points out what would happen politically if something like that actually happened.

In other words, money is more important to you then human rights?

I thought that I was the Capitolist Pig, who only cared about money.  Personally, I could not care less about that.  I am sure that China would be much worse off then we would be.  And we could get our goods from other nations that need the money just as badly, like Philippines, Thailand, Malaysia, and Taiwan.  Sure we might hurt for a while, but we will recover.  What will happen to China when it looses it's #1 trading partner, and has nobody to take it's place?

Try reading The Dragon And The Bear by Tom Clancy.  I think he accurately points out what would happen politically if something like that actually happened.


Well, I care very much for rights. BUT, people have to be able to provide for their families. As much as i feel for the Chinese people, I don't think endangering America's standards of living is a trade off I'd be willing to make. So I guess the answer in this case is, yes.

Well, I care very much for rights. BUT, people have to be able to provide for their families. As much as i feel for the Chinese people, I don't think endangering America's standards of living is a trade off I'd be willing to make. So I guess the answer in this case is, yes.


I still do not really understand.

What does China provide that we can't get somewhere else?  For that matter, what we did not get somewhere else before we started to trade with them?

SO the price goes up on low end clothes and toys, so what?  Somebody else will step in to take their place.  That is what always happens, it is simply global economics.

My problem with China is their horrid record of human rights.

Well, darn it, the Bush Administration is doing all they can in the human rights dept. to catch up with China!  Give 'em a break.  The Bushies have only had five years, the Red Chinese have had over half a century!
:D

I still do not really understand.

What does China provide that we can't get somewhere else?  For that matter, what we did not get somewhere else before we started to trade with them?

SO the price goes up on low end clothes and toys, so what?  Somebody else will step in to take their place.  That is what always happens, it is simply global economics.


Its not just that. If they dump their dollars it will cause massive inflation across the board. Food, clothes, everything. Inflation affects the price of everything when it comes from devaluation of the dollar, does it not?

There are alot of people in this country who have a tough time making it anyway.

Its not just that. If they dump their dollars it will cause massive inflation across the board. Food, clothes, everything. Inflation affects the price of everything when it comes from devaluation of the dollar, does it not?

There are alot of people in this country who have a tough time making it anyway.


Here, you have to understand what is propping up the Yuan.

The Yuan (China's currency) is largely propped up because of the intake of US Dollars.  If the supply of US Dollars vanishes, then their currency will sharply devaluate.  This will weaken their currency, but have little impact on the US Dollar.

And if anything, it might even raise the value of the Dollar.  Because of the number of imports that would come from other countries, many will get into "bidding wars", hoping to catch some of the open contracts.

For a good example of the power of the Dollar, look how many countries use it as their official currency.  In 1989, one of the things President Bush did to Panama was to enact an international ban on sending the US Dollar to Panama.  Since that is also their official currency, it meant they were getting no money.  This strengthened the US Dollar, and almost bankrupt Panama.

In fact, that was a question I posted last year in the trivia section here.
18.  What do Panama, British Virgin Islands, East Timor, Ecudaor, El Salvador, and Guatemala all have in common?
Mushroom:  They all have the US Dollar as the official currency.


So moving our imports somewhere else will only have a short-term effect on our currency and economy.  This will mostly be in shortages of low-money items.  But within 6 months, a lot of other countries will maje them to take the place of China.  But it is doubtful how well China would fare, loosing their #1 trading partner.