Newslink1: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4349963.stm
Newslink2: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4331819.stm
Newslink3: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4285723.stm

It is important to glance at these three stories, and perhaps hint around related stories as well to get a good perspective of the current situation. It boils down to the fact that the peace process is in danger. Both sides are possibly guilty of undermining it, but from what I can see, the British government is using the Belfast murder and the family involved in order to degrade the Nationalist cause.

If you take a good look at newslink3, you'll see that the British government has given Sinn Féin four days to defend itself before they vote on possible sanctions for the bank raid in Belfast, which many believe was an IRA event. What's wrong with this picture is two things: first off, they have not yet even proven that the IRA was behind the heist, have not made arrests, have not had trials, have not had convictions yet they are going to sanction Sinn Féin (a seperate organisation, and a legitimate, popular political party in both the Republic and in Ulster). Will they get away with it? Maybe, but that's not their objective. Their objective is to publically defame Sinn Féin, and there are already talks of excluding them from the Northern Ireland Assembly. For what? For mere rumours?

Newslink4: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4270807.stm

Sinn Féin is a century's old organisation committed to the peace process, and has been entrusted by several hundred thousand voters in both Irelands to do so. Their connection with the IRA is merely a historical one and any real connection between the two was severed even before the Good Friday Agreement. Nevertheless, old prejudices stick hard and fast, and British popular opinion seems to suggest that Sinn Féin is nothing more than a political mouthpiece for a barbaric IRA. With these two contraversies, the British media and governmental presence in Northern Ireland has been given significant ammunition to finally throw the most committed seekers of Irish unity, freedom, and social responsibility (Sinn Féin) out of the loop so that they can have their way with Ulster.

I hear cries from all over, on both sides of the Atlantic, for the disbanding of the IRA. How naive to think that this will occur before their mission has been realised. Though they too are committed to the peace proccess, they are more committed to the Nationalist cause and will not simply back off. While I personally abhor their behaviour of late (drug smuggling and murder in particular), I also recognise that the organisation gets the blame for a lot of crap it has nothing to do with, and that the British authorities in N. Ireland are playing a dangerous and possibly deadly game by trying to shove Sinn Féin out of the Peace Process. The IRA might be talked into going more legit as far as funding is concerned, but they will never go away until their mission is achieved and it is ignorant to think they will. They too have issued statements.

Newslink5: http://www.inac.org/action/alert/72

I think it's time for the blame game to end and it's time for the dirty tricks to stop before a serious situation developes. Too many great strides have been made with the help of the Irish Government, British Government, Sinn Féin, the IRA, Bill Clinton, and countless others to foil it all now. I think a serious effort needs to be made here. End the bullshhh.

I have always been a big fan of the BBC, but even I didn't expect them to be too impartial when covering this situation. All I see is constant denunciation of Gerry Adams and Sinn Féin (who have been instrumental in the peace process, and have hepled to make great developments) by the BBC, and never any credit to the good he's done. He and SF have been a thorn in a lot of arses over the years, but they had to be -they have an electorate and a mission to serve. The British government doesn't like them and can't be expected to because for 100 years they have been the most fervent workers toward the goal of a united, free Ireland and they have no intention on giving in. No wonder the British authorities and the BBC are capitalising on these controversies so hard... they finally see a possible way to get Sinn Féin out of their hair. If it works, one thing is for sure. The IRA will still be there even if SF is not, which will ultimately prove the lack of connection between the two. I just hope that all players involved play their cards smart in order to avoid more bloodshed.

It is so sad. I was hoping that would solve their differences and end the hatred and the bloodshed.



"Isaac was my friend! he cried, he begged them with his tears
But centuries of hatred have ears that do not hear
An eye for an eye, it was all that filled their minds
And another eye for another eye till everyone is blind"

              -"There were Roses" by Tommy Sands





Cat

Both sides are possibly guilty of undermining it, but from what I can see, the British government is using the Belfast murder and the family involved in order to degrade the Nationalist cause.

Really, you should get out more: the British Government?  Ha!  This is a prime example of the Republican movement shooting themselves in both feet - IRA thugs killed the wrong man, then tried to use their connections to put pressure on witnesses not to talk.  I have to admit, I can't quite see why


Sinn Féin is a centuries-old organisation committed to the peace process, and has been entrusted by several hundred thousand voters in both Irelands to do so. Their connection with the IRA is merely a historical one and any real connection between the two was severed even before the Good Friday Agreement.

Crap.  Sinn Fein is the political wing of the IRA: if they weren't they wouldn't have any power or clout in Irish politics whatsoever.  It is also THE best-funded political party in the island of Ireland, having roundabout ten times as much to spend as every other party in both the North and South put together - politics over there ain't a level playing field.  Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness still have ties with the IRA (and they didn't go so far as to deny the statement by the Southern Irish justice minister who said they Adams is part of the IRA Army Council).

And if you really feel the Republican cause is still a valid one, and Sinn Fein are following only peaceful means, what would be your take on the fact that they had on the hard disk of one of their computers the names and addresses of nearly every single serving prison officer in the province?  What possible use could they have for that information, other than to do what they've done in the past, which is to threaten them with violence if the situation in the prisons goes against their wishes?  Incidentally, there are no IRA members locked up for political offences any more (though there are still plenty behind bars for civil offences, such as robbing banks).

There is no serious doubt whatsoever that the IRA was involved with the Northern Bank robbery: there ain't anyone else with that kind of organization - and nobody else would be stupid enough to do that kind of thing under their noses.  And what about this story?  Face it, Sinn Fein are the voter-friendly face of the biggest bunch of criminals in the Western world.

I can't claim to be an expert, or even well read on this topic, but from what I do know, the English first conquored the Irish under Cromwell, brutally, and hjave been lording it over Irelan ever since - until independance.  I'm going to introduce what might seem like a digression.  Some years ago 2 researchers published a book titleed The Bell Curve about differences in IQ test between blacks and whites in the US.  Whites scored higher, so there were two bell curves.  Their conclusion was that there would always be a black "underclass" because blacks are mentally inferior to whites, and the IQ test data proved it.  Problem is, when you look at IQ test data for Northern Ireland, you find the same disparity between High score Protestants and low score Catholics.  Same in Japan between Japanese and Koreans living in Japan.  The disadvantaged always are less well developed.  Inferior schools, sub-standard social services, low income, deteriorating or slum neighborhoods - all of that and the impact of poverty on families and what they can give to their children are clearly the determining factors.  The fact that the IQ observations from Northern Ireland continue to demonstrate that gap suggests that there is still no equality there.  The fact that the Orangemen still insist on their annual march (I forget where), which is, to Catholics akin to the KKK marching through Harlem, suggests that there are still deep animosities, as the verse Cat quoted suggest, and a long way to go.

My favorite verse in that song, though, goes like this, and I would hope that ALL people in that troubled land would get the point:

The ones who give the orders
are not the ones who die.
Its Scott, and McDonalld,
and the likes of you and I.

I hope for peace, an end to the violance, and a realization that Protestants and Catholics can live together and thrive together.  On the other hand, Neither side can forget its martyres.  Remember Kevin Barry.

I can't claim to be an expert, or even well read on this topic, but from what I do know, the English first conquored the Irish under Cromwell, brutally, and hjave been lording it over Irelan ever since - until independance.  I'm going to introduce what might seem like a digression.  Some years ago 2 researchers published a book titleed The Bell Curve about differences in IQ test between blacks and whites in the US.  Whites scored higher, so there were two bell curves.  Their conclusion was that there would always be a black "underclass" because blacks are mentally inferior to whites, and the IQ test data proved it.  Problem is, when you look at IQ test data for Northern Ireland, you find the same disparity between High score Protestants and low score Catholics.  Same in Japan between Japanese and Koreans living in Japan.  The disadvantaged always are less well developed.  Inferior schools, sub-standard social services, low income, deteriorating or slum neighborhoods - all of that and the impact of poverty on families and what they can give to their children are clearly the determining factors.  The fact that the IQ observations from Northern Ireland continue to demonstrate that gap suggests that there is still no equality there.  The fact that the Orangemen still insist on their annual march (I forget where), which is, to Catholics akin to the KKK marching through Harlem, suggests that there are still deep animosities, as the verse Cat quoted suggest, and a long way to go.



It is one of the things that drives me absolutely nuts about the relationship between the Irish and African Americans in the USA.  The Catholic Irish(from Ireland) come over and are appalled at the division in Boston between the two considering the history and treatment.  They liken the treatment of African Americans by the Irish power structure here much the same way as the treatment of the Protestant power structure to the Catholics "back home".  Bernadette Devlin equated the situation in the same way at a forum at Boston University and was booed(as well as applauded), and told she was not welcome to come back to Southie.  Much has changed in the past few years, but, working in South Boston, I attribute that to the influx of Irish(no hyphen) who aren't quite so...... ???...set in there ways.

It's a misconception that the troubles in Northern Ireland have been about religion: the religious divide hasn't helped (and the Catholic church certainly hasn't helped, often being a lot more interested in playing power politics than preventing bloodshed), but it boils down to fear and thinking of oneself as a victim: the Irish (quite rightly, looking at the history) have seen themselves as victims of English aggression (well, and Scottish, too); and the English at the time of partition couldn't pull out of all of Ireland because of (also, very reasonable) worries that the Protestant population would have been slaughtered.

The Orangemen *definitely* don't help the situation by insisting on their 400-year-old victory parades, living way back in the past and refusing to bend or compromise in any way.

A chap I worked with in NI had an even more telling description of how things are: things are never going to change while you can tell which side of the fence a child comes from just by hearing his name; when Grammar School Protestants play rugby, the other protestants play football and catholics play Gaelic football... and ne'er the twain shall meet on the sports field.

And there's parents who'll quite happily use their children as political pawns, walking them unnecessarily (and unnecessarily provocatively) through the opposing side's ghettos just so that they can get headlines.

A plague o' both their houses. :(

It's a misconception that the troubles in Northern Ireland have been about religion: the religious divide hasn't helped (and the Catholic church certainly hasn't helped, often being a lot more interested in playing power politics than preventing bloodshed), but it boils down to fear and thinking of oneself as a victim: the Irish (quite rightly, looking at the history) have seen themselves as victims of English aggression (well, and Scottish, too); and the English at the time of partition couldn't pull out of all of Ireland because of (also, very reasonable) worries that the Protestant population would have been slaughtered.

The Orangemen *definitely* don't help the situation by insisting on their 400-year-old victory parades, living way back in the past and refusing to bend or compromise in any way.

A chap I worked with in NI had an even more telling description of how things are: things are never going to change while you can tell which side of the fence a child comes from just by hearing his name; when Grammar School Protestants play rugby, the other protestants play football and catholics play Gaelic football... and ne'er the twain shall meet on the sports field.

And there's parents who'll quite happily use their children as political pawns, walking them unnecessarily (and unnecessarily provocatively) through the opposing side's ghettos just so that they can get headlines.

A plague o' both their houses. :(


Religion was used as an excuse to oppress/decimate the Catholics.  The real reasons of course were/are power and money.

Religion was used as an excuse to oppress/decimate the Catholics. The real reasons of course were/are power and money.

Well, given that the Catholics had been conspiring against the monarchy, and given a few years in power had managed to decimate the ruling classes, the anti-Catholic feeling here in the middle ages was pretty reasonable.  But it certainly was exploited (the sacking of the monasteries being a case in point)

It's a misconception that the troubles in Northern Ireland have been about religion: the religious divide hasn't helped (and the Catholic church certainly hasn't helped, often being a lot more interested in playing power politics than preventing bloodshed), but it boils down to fear and thinking of oneself as a victim: the Irish (quite rightly, looking at the history) have seen themselves as victims of English aggression (well, and Scottish, too); and the English at the time of partition couldn't pull out of all of Ireland because of (also, very reasonable) worries that the Protestant population would have been slaughtered.

The Orangemen *definitely* don't help the situation by insisting on their 400-year-old victory parades, living way back in the past and refusing to bend or compromise in any way.

A chap I worked with in NI had an even more telling description of how things are: things are never going to change while you can tell which side of the fence a child comes from just by hearing his name; when Grammar School Protestants play rugby, the other protestants play football and catholics play Gaelic football... and ne'er the twain shall meet on the sports field.

And there's parents who'll quite happily use their children as political pawns, walking them unnecessarily (and unnecessarily provocatively) through the opposing side's ghettos just so that they can get headlines.

A plague o' both their houses. :(


I go back to the verse I posted:

The ones who give the orders...

Maybe both sides need to realize that THEY are the ones whop need to die.  Peace.

It is so sad. I was hoping that would solve their differences and end the hatred and the bloodshed.



"Isaac was my friend! he cried, he begged them with his tears
But centuries of hatred have ears that do not hear
An eye for an eye, it was all that filled their minds
And another eye for another eye till everyone is blind"

              -"There were Roses" by Tommy Sands


Don't forget about Bobby Sands!

I find it hard for the Celtic world to trust the British central government when they only allowed Wales to have it's own assembly since the late 90s. And it cannot even pass real legislation or adjust taxes at all. Home rule still seems to be a difficult concept for Downing Street to deal with. Here in the U.S. states have had their own legislatures from the very beginning of the Republic.

Well, given that the Catholics had been conspiring against the monarchy, and given a few years in power had managed to decimate the ruling classes,


But given the lives of the peasants under the thumb of the ruling classes was that was more defensive.  The actions of the ruling classes were offensive, and the retaliation was taken to the extreme

Don't forget about Bobby Sands!


Dam* right!

Really, you should get out more: the British Government?  Ha!  This is a prime example of the Republican movement shooting themselves in both feet - IRA thugs killed the wrong man, then tried to use their connections to put pressure on witnesses not to talk.
 
You're right, thugs did kill the wrong man, however, there are a few questions I have myself about the murder that the press has neither asked nor answered. First off, what caused the row in the first place? Second, anyone here stupid enough to tick of a couple of IRA members? Didn't think so. I am no IRA defender, although I was at one point and still would be if they cleaned up their act. I don't condone drug-smuggling and tyrannical street-rule. However, their cause is a definite one, and like a Derry local was quoted in saying "you can't have a deal without them." They aren't simply going to go away just because people want them to, mainly because a lot of people (and that's more people than the British or American press want you to think) don't want them to.


Sinn Fein is the political wing of the IRA: if they weren't they wouldn't have any power or clout in Irish politics whatsoever.  It is also THE best-funded political party in the island of Ireland, having roundabout ten times as much to spend as every other party in both the North and South put together - politics over there ain't a level playing field.  Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness still have ties with the IRA (and they didn't go so far as to deny the statement by the Southern Irish justice minister who said they Adams is part of the IRA Army Council).

How many times has he had to deny a hard connection before? Plenty, I should say. There are several reasons why they are the best funded party. First off, they're 100 years old... people have faith in them. Secondly, they are the only party in the North or South whose primary concern is Irish re-unification. Thirdly, they are a Socialist-leaning group, and given the present Europolitical spectrum, that scores them many points.

I do not believe that Gerry Adams or McGuinness or even Sinn Féin are actual "bosses" of the IRA as much as I would say that they are political figurehead and symbols for the power of the IRA both presently and historically. People like to associate the two more than is due, IMHO.


And if you really feel the Republican cause is still a valid one, and Sinn Fein are following only peaceful means, what would be your take on the fact that they had on the hard disk of one of their computers the names and addresses of nearly every single serving prison officer in the province?  What possible use could they have for that information, other than to do what they've done in the past, which is to threaten them with violence if the situation in the prisons goes against their wishes?  Incidentally, there are no IRA members locked up for political offences any more (though there are still plenty behind bars for civil offences, such as robbing banks).


I have to admit that this is the first I've heard of the hard disk, so until I view more specific and conclusive information about it, I shouldn't comment. One thing, I think, remains certain. Sinn Féin is bigger than the IRA ever was, and if there are significant connections such as this disk would suggest, they will have to sompletely sever them if they are to survive. And they will survive for the reasons I have already stated.


There is no serious doubt whatsoever that the IRA was involved with the Northern Bank robbery: there ain't anyone else with that kind of organization - and nobody else would be stupid enough to do that kind of thing under their noses.  And what about this story?  Face it, Sinn Fein are the voter-friendly face of the biggest bunch of criminals in the Western world.


Those are some pretty conclusive reasons there... "no one else is stupid enough." I think I read an update on that story you linked and I believe those two men were released without charges, although I may be mixing them up with two others.

The main point I am trying to make is this. The Unionist officials are being very disingenuous about this. First off, they are capitalising on the Belfast murder in order to suit their political agenda. You can't have a deal without Sinn Féin, you just can't have one. By suggesting that Adams and SF be excluded from the assembly, they are playing a dangerous game. If the IRA ever had any reason to disband, it will be out the window as soon as the main voice of the Nationalist community is excluded from the governing body, and the real violence will start again. The Unionist minority, instead of truly mourning the loss of McCartney, are only using his family and memory for their own agenda, and the British press and the American press are facilitating that. Do you expect that the hardcore Nationalists will stand for a Sinn Féin exclusion and massive IRA raids in their communities once again like in the 80s and early 90s? Hell no they won't, not to a foreign government who they feel have no right to be there in the first place. The sh*t will hit the fan. If people on both sides are truly committed to the peace process, they will set the record straight. Blair and Ahern have both called for an end to paramilitarism... Hello! Won't ever happen, because the official military is a UK backed one, and the Nationalists won't stand for it. They'd rather have the IRA (and a cleaned-up one at that, which is a definite possibility after the media frenzy around McCartney's killing).

What I hope will come out of this is a Sinn Féin who acts strictly as a liaison between the decided policies of the assembly, and the IRA. Not as leaders or shotcallers or whatever people think they are. Let's face it, there will be an IRA until Irish reunification occurs, and until that time there needs to be someone who can negotiate with them, and if Sinn Féin is that someone then so be it. I also hope that the IRA will turn its back on criminal activities like bank heists, drug smuggling, and murder, and re-emerge as a powerful symbol of protection for the Catholic and Nationalist community.

First off, what caused the row in the first place? Second, anyone here stupid enough to tick of a couple of IRA members?
Irrelevant: what caused the problem was not that the IRA killed someone - hell, they've been doing that for years - it's that they tried to cover up an "unsanctioned" killing by applying the same pressure on the witnesses as if it were something of which the IRA approved, and were it not for the unprecedented publicity that this murder has achieved they'd have got away with it as usual.


How many times has he had to deny a hard connection before? Plenty, I should say. There are several reasons why they are the best funded party. First off, they're 100 years old... people have faith in them. Secondly, they are the only party in the North or South whose primary concern is Irish re-unification. Thirdly, they are a Socialist-leaning group, and given the present Europolitical spectrum, that scores them many points.

Wrong again: the reason they're the best funded party has historically been that they get millions (that's literally millions of pounds, sterling) from the US: they are the ONLY political party in the UK that's allowed to receive donations from overseas, after they were granted an exemption so as not to derail the peace process.  If donations from folks ignorant of how Sinn Fein actually behave were discounted, they'd be broke... or at least reduced to robbing banks.


I do not believe that Gerry Adams or McGuinness or even Sinn Féin are actual "bosses" of the IRA as much as I would say that they are political figurehead and symbols for the power of the IRA both presently and historically. People like to associate the two more than is due, IMHO.

They are at very best ex-members: both were active IRA members during the most violent parts of the Troubles, that isn't in doubt (during the Bloody Sunday inquest, McGuinness finally, after denying it for years, admitted being part of an IRA contingent in the crowd).  Whether they're actually running things or not, it certainly wouldn't surprise anybody if they were.


I have to admit that this is the first I've heard of the hard disk, so until I view more specific and conclusive information about it, I shouldn't comment. One thing, I think, remains certain. Sinn Féin is bigger than the IRA ever was, and if there are significant connections such as this disk would suggest, they will have to sompletely sever them if they are to survive. And they will survive for the reasons I have already stated.

I was in Maghaberry prison the day this story broke: many of the staff there used to work at the Maze and if they hadn't had their own family intimidated or attacked (or killed - I'm not sure how many prison staff were killed over that period, but it's well into double figures and probably nearer the hundred), then they'd been friends with people who had.  There were a lot of very worried guys there.


Those are some pretty conclusive reasons there... "no one else is stupid enough." I think I read an update on that story you linked and I believe those two men were released without charges, although I may be mixing them up with two others.

I've not been able to find anything that says the Sinn Fein officials arrested during those raids have been released without charges.  But seriously: even Gerry Adams' position on this is changing from his inital "they told us that they didn't do it and we believe them"...


The main point I am trying to make is this. The Unionist officials are being very disingenuous about this. First off, they are capitalising on the Belfast murder in order to suit their political agenda. You can't have a deal without Sinn Féin, you just can't have one. By suggesting that Adams and SF be excluded from the assembly, they are playing a dangerous game.
There's no change from the Unionists: they've not wanted to deal with SF from the start.  And I agree, that any kind of permanent exclusion them will prevent all progress, and probably cause things to head back to trouble again... but that doesn't mean that the Sinn Fein leadership are not lying, murderous bastards.


The Unionist minority, instead of truly mourning the loss of McCartney, are only using his family and memory for their own agenda, and the British press and the American press are facilitating that.

Don't you get it?  McCartney was a Sinn Fein-supporting republican - as were his sisters.  The vast majority of the Unionists are keeping their heads well down, seeing that their quest for justice is best supported by them not saying anything at all - especially when you get the IRA offering to shoot the murderers as though that's going to make everything all right. 


Won't ever happen, because the official military is a UK backed one, and the Nationalists won't stand for it. They'd rather have the IRA (and a cleaned-up one at that, which is a definite possibility after the media frenzy around McCartney's killing).

I don't know anyone over in NI (on either side of the divide) who'd prefer the IRA patrolling the streets rather than a proper police force.  But I also don't know any Catholics who'd say that in public: the nationalists are always complaining that the PSNI (formerly the RUC) are overwhelmingly Protestant... but it's the IRA who intimidate and beat up the families of Catholic policemen.  They have a vested interest in there being a one-sided police force, or especially the perception of a partisan one: it means that the people who have the means to send them to prison don't have any trust in the law that'd clean the streets up once and for all.


What I hope will come out of this is a Sinn Féin who acts strictly as a liaison between the decided policies of the assembly, and the IRA. Not as leaders or shotcallers or whatever people think they are. Let's face it, there will be an IRA until Irish reunification occurs, and until that time there needs to be someone who can negotiate with them, and if Sinn Féin is that someone then so be it. I also hope that the IRA will turn its back on criminal activities like bank heists, drug smuggling, and murder, and re-emerge as a powerful symbol of protection for the Catholic and Nationalist community.

It's a nice thing to hope for.  But I hope you've got an awful lot of fingers to keep crossed.

Wrong again: the reason they're the best funded party has historically been that they get millions (that's literally millions of pounds, sterling) from the US: they are the ONLY political party in the UK that's allowed to receive donations from overseas, after they were granted an exemption so as not to derail the peace process.

I'm not sure why the country of origin re: SF funding is particularly relevent. They are still being donated such funds for the reasons I have stated. People have faith in them (be they in the US or not) because they are an old party and the only party whose primary mission is the re-unification of Ireland (something most Irish-Americans hope to see in their own lifetimes). It's important to us. I have refrained from making donations to INAC (the Irish Northern Aid Committee, Noraid) just in case some of the money was funneled to the IRA. I've heard rumours about INAC. I wouldn't want to help pay for drugs being smuggled into Ireland.

Also, re: the faith in SF issue, I am not wrong at all. They are the largest Natioanlist party in N.I. and hold a majority of seats in the Assembly. They also hold four out of seven nationalist seats in parliament. Their support has shown a trend of growing support in the last few years. People obviously do have faith in them, and I would also expect these people to be donating money. You can't possibly believe that they scared all those people into voting for them...

There's no change from the Unionists: they've not wanted to deal with SF from the start.  And I agree, that any kind of permanent exclusion them will prevent all progress, and probably cause things to head back to trouble again... but that doesn't mean that the Sinn Fein leadership are not lying, murderous bastards.

Part of the problem with the Unionists is that they've not wanted to deal with SF, the main voice in Irish Republicanism. And let us not pretend that Unionism hasn't had (doesn't have) its fair share of paramilitarism, beatings, and criminal activities. Where are the crusaders against them? Oh yeah, they're busy being the scapegoats for any and every street crime committed in Ulster. And how Gerry Adams could possibly have enough time to face a daily barage of slander and accusations, not to mention the intense scrutiny the other authorities have him under, and also be the clandestine leader of the IRA is beyond me.


Don't you get it?  McCartney was a Sinn Fein-supporting republican - as were his sisters. 


I don't see the relevence here. So what? A couple of vigilante IRA members kill their brother, and of course they cry out in anger against the IRA and any body having any historical connection with them. I don't expect that the McCartney sisters are privvy to a lot of inside evidence, which for whatever reason, they cannot publically disclose. It's not like they have even the IRA to fear now; if any of them turned up dead, there'd be hysteria. So let's have all the evidence which has them so convinced that Sinn Féin is responsible...

And I love how the press is covering Sinn Féin's 'warning' to the sisters. I actually read the Dallas Morning Newa this morning, and the author actually said it 'sounded more like a threat'. Are you kidding me? Did this guy read it or hear it, or is he just taking out of context on purpose? The 'warning' was nothing of the sort. It was Adams and McGuinness letting the sisters know that they are being taken advantage of by people with political agendas... I read it and it was totally straightforward if you ask me... but then again, the typical Dallasite neither knows that or really gives a rat's @ss. The press' way of trying to sway a poorly informed Irish-American community.


The vast majority of the Unionists are keeping their heads well down, seeing that their quest for justice is best supported by them not saying anything at all - especially when you get the IRA offering to shoot the murderers as though that's going to make everything all right. 


One wouldn't be able to conclude that from the actions of Unionist leaders. The leader of their majority party called for the exclusion of Sinn Féin from the Assembly (bad idea). They are also threatening sanctions on SF for the suspected IRA robbery. Even if it is generally accepted that SF is closely affiliated with the IRA, they haven't proven it... otherwise Gerry Adams would be in jail, as IRA membership is illegal (especially in the Republic, which means if Adams' membership were proven, he would face arrest everytime he entered the Republic, which he does often). Furthermore, Adams has challenged the officials in the Republic who have accused him of IRA membership/leadership to have him arrested for conspiracy. Unsurprisingly, it hasn't happened yet, and don't think for a second that the Irish government wouldn't do it if they could. So therefore, where do the Unionist leaders get off making threats about sanctions? It seems that they are already using the mandate they've gained thanks to all the bad press SF has received. Perhaos trying to strengthen it.

As for the shooting offer, what did you expect them to do? Are the public so naive as to think that the IRA would hand over members of its own organisation to the Unionist-dominated police (where they might possibly leak information)? Let's get real! I don't condone it, but I can't say I blame them.


I don't know anyone over in NI (on either side of the divide) who'd prefer the IRA patrolling the streets rather than a proper police force.

Surely not. Problem is, in Republican eyes, a proper police force is one commissioned by a free, Irish republic. Also, despite what the press wants everyone to believe, there is still significant support for the IRA present in Nationalist communities. When members of the police force entered a nationalist neighbourhood recently to search for IRA suspects in the murder or robbery (I can't remember which one), they came under a barage of stones being thrown by locals. This one event proves that there is a distrust of the Police by the nationalist community... and if it were merely IRA intimidation, I think the locals would just be compelled to stay silent, not throw rocks. It's more than the IRA that's the problem here, obviously.


But I also don't know any Catholics who'd say that in public: the nationalists are always complaining that the PSNI (formerly the RUC) are overwhelmingly Protestant... but it's the IRA who intimidate and beat up the families of Catholic policemen.

I have been scowering the net for just one news clip that would support this suggestion... I can't find one. Can you link me to one, or is this something you know from personal experience? It's a bit more difficult for me to keep completely current because I don't live in Ireland or the U.K. But I do think it's a little convenient to be able to blame the IRA everytime there is no evidence to back up the accusations they are already being blamed for. It's too easy because they are an organisation that operates clandestinely, and that is the reason why they are given little chance to defend themselves. You could say anything about the IRA, and blame anything on them and the best they can do is deny it... you think they'd ever have a shot at a fair day in court? They're the effin' IRA for cryin' out loud, they don't even recognise the legitimacy of the current courts in Northern Ireland.


It's a nice thing to hope for.  But I hope you've got an awful lot of fingers to keep crossed.


I only have ten, but fortunately I am of the majority of Irish-Americans who hope to see a unified Ireland in our lifetime.

I'm not sure why the country of origin re: SF funding is particularly relevent. They are still being donated such funds for the reasons I have stated. People have faith in them (be they in the US or not) because they are an old party and the only party whose primary mission is the re-unification of Ireland (something most Irish-Americans hope to see in their own lifetimes). It's important to us.

It's relevant because it's illegal for any other political party in the UK to receive donations from overseas.  The people who have faith in them on that side of the Atlantic do so because they do not know the people to whom they are giving money: your description of Sinn Fein as a bunch of peace-loving, trustworthy individuals who deserve to be given money for their cause would raise a truly cynical laugh from anyone who knows these people.  And, if you don't mind my asking, WTF is a united Ireland important to you?


I have refrained from making donations to INAC (the Irish Northern Aid Committee, Noraid) just in case some of the money was funneled to the IRA. I've heard rumours about INAC. I wouldn't want to help pay for drugs being smuggled into Ireland.

Good for you... but: "just in case" some money went to the IRA??? Where else was the money going?  A large number of the good citizens of the US (up till a couple of years ago) was the main sponsor of terrorism over here - now the IRA aren't spending so much buying arms and ammunition, it's going to Sinn Fein: tell me, what would you think if one of the political parties over there was sponsored to the tune of more than everyone else put together by some interested minority overseas?


Also, re: the faith in SF issue, I am not wrong at all. They are the largest Natioanlist party in N.I. and hold a majority of seats in the Assembly.

At the last election, for the first time *ever*, Sinn Fein polled more votes than the SDLP (the mainstream Nationalist political party: the one that actually helped to bring about the peace process, not the ones who jumped on the bandwagon way after it started rolling) - which was roundabout 20% of the vote in NI - they DO NOT hold a majority of the seats, or even close.  The biggest reason, IMO, that their electoral performance has taken off is that they've bought their way in.  Like any democracy, the ones who spend the most money on their campaign score best - I was in NI during local (not assembly) elections, and there were at least twenty Sinn Fein posters up for every non-SF one: it had nothing to do with popular support, but everything to do with activism and money to burn.


You can't possibly believe that they scared all those people into voting for them...

I think I've just answered that one.. but I will say that they don't use direct intimidation at election time: if that were proven, Sinn Fein as a political party would be dead in the water 'cause they'd be disbarred from holding office, and they're way too clever to let that happen.


Part of the problem with the Unionists is that they've not wanted to deal with SF, the main voice in Irish Republicanism. And let us not pretend that Unionism hasn't had (doesn't have) its fair share of paramilitarism, beatings, and criminal activities. Where are the crusaders against them? Oh yeah, they're busy being the scapegoats for any and every street crime committed in Ulster.

Crap - Unionist thugs and bully-boys are (and should be) treated in exactly the same way - the main difference is that in comparison the Loyalist paramilitaries are poorly-organised and just plain stupid.  I'm not sectarian in this: I don't see any real difference between the two in their use of aggression and intimidation of what should be "their own" communities.  You can't, without true hypocrisy, try and highlight the activities of one side and say that the other is behaving reasonably.


I don't see the relevence here. So what? A couple of vigilante IRA members kill their brother, and of course they cry out in anger against the IRA and any body having any historical connection with them. I don't expect that the McCartney sisters are privvy to a lot of inside evidence, which for whatever reason, they cannot publically disclose. It's not like they have even the IRA to fear now; if any of them turned up dead, there'd be hysteria. So let's have all the evidence which has them so convinced that Sinn Féin is responsible...

You were the one who brough the Unionists into this: I was simply pointing out that the whole shenanigans is wholly within the Republican community.  What's caused the main uproar is that the murderers used the shield of IRA membership to try and cover up their crime.  If McCartney had been a protestant, you'd not have heard a word in the press from his sisters, it'd just have been another killing in Northern Ireland.

You're perilously close to a strawman here: nobody that I'm aware of has said that SF is responsible for the murder of McCartney; however, two SF prospective candidates were in the bar at the time, neither of them came forward until they were contacted by the police, and coincidentally, neither of them saw or heard anything at all.  Yeah, right.


It was Adams and McGuinness letting the sisters know that they are being taken advantage of by people with political agendas... I read it and it was totally straightforward if you ask me... but then again, the typical Dallasite neither knows that or really gives a rat's @ss. The press' way of trying to sway a poorly informed Irish-American community.

On one thing here, I completely agree with you: the "poorly-informed Irish-American community" - if they knew what SF/IRA have really been doing, they'd not have given so much money to them.  I don't believe the sisters are being taken advantage of, particularly: they seem to know exactly what they're doing.  There does now seem to be an orchestrated backlash against them, though... which is hardly surprising, when you think about it.


Even if it is generally accepted that SF is closely affiliated with the IRA, they haven't proven it... otherwise Gerry Adams would be in jail, as IRA membership is illegal (especially in the Republic, which means if Adams' membership were proven, he would face arrest everytime he entered the Republic, which he does often).

That's one of the joys of the peace process: Adams and McGuinness both categorically denied being members of the IRA at any time before the Good Friday talks; now they have both at various times said that they were active members of the IRA - you'd need a head buried in the sand up to your ankles to believe that today they have no connection to the IRA.


As for the shooting offer, what did you expect them to do? Are the public so naive as to think that the IRA would hand over members of its own organisation to the Unionist-dominated police (where they might possibly leak information)? Let's get real! I don't condone it, but I can't say I blame them.

Why should the constitution of the police make any difference: FFS, they KNOW the guys that killed McCartney - are they unduly worried that they're not going to get a fair trial?  What have they got to lose by handing them over to the police?  I will admit to being kind of surprised that they didn't just kill the murderers and stay schtumm: they presumably have a reason for wanting them alive...


Surely not. Problem is, in Republican eyes, a proper police force is one commissioned by a free, Irish republic. Also, despite what the press wants everyone to believe, there is still significant support for the IRA present in Nationalist communities. When members of the police force entered a nationalist neighbourhood recently to search for IRA suspects in the murder or robbery (I can't remember which one), they came under a barage of stones being thrown by locals. This one event proves that there is a distrust of the Police by the nationalist community... and if it were merely IRA intimidation, I think the locals would just be compelled to stay silent, not throw rocks. It's more than the IRA that's the problem here, obviously.

So you'd rather see intimidation and rule by terrorists win out over the rule of law?  If Bush were trying this kind of stunt, you'd be all over him.  Take of the green-tinted spectacles and look at what you're actually suggesting, here.


I have been scouring the net for just one news clip that would support this suggestion... I can't find one. Can you link me to one, or is this something you know from personal experience?

To take the moderate Nationalist viewpoint:

http://www.sdlp.ie/policy/documents/pdPOLICING%20-%20FREEDOM%20FROM%20INTIMIDATION%20AND%20HARASSMENT.shtm

And I'm going to do what you hate so much and blame the IRA for this one: http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2002/06/07/story53922.asp even though nobody was arrested for it.  Could have been the Loyalist paramilitaries, I know, but they're not the ones with most to lose in that situation.


It's a bit more difficult for me to keep completely current because I don't live in Ireland or the U.K. But I do think it's a little convenient to be able to blame the IRA everytime there is no evidence to back up the accusations they are already being blamed for. It's too easy because they are an organisation that operates clandestinely, and that is the reason why they are given little chance to defend themselves. You could say anything about the IRA, and blame anything on them and the best they can do is deny it... you think they'd ever have a shot at a fair day in court? They're the effin' IRA for cryin' out loud, they don't even recognise the legitimacy of the current courts in Northern Ireland.

Do you think an organization which has killed more people than died in the World Trade Centre really has that much claim to legitimacy?  Yes, they're the effin' IRA - bank robbery, extortion, protection rackets, smuggling, punishment beatings.  Yeah, they're the fudgeing good guys, all right.

And, if you don't mind my asking, WTF is a united Ireland important to you?
Because unlike other ethnic communities in the US, our community has always taken an active interest in the goings on of the country from which our predessecors came. It only happens that the particular goings in Ireland is that the country has been partitioned for 84 years against the will of the overwhelming majority of its people, our ethnic relatives. Not to mention that Irish re-unification will, at long last, be a final symbol of the reversal of the oppression and sadness that drove many of our ancestors to emmigrate in the first place.

And I hope you will be pleasantly surprised to know that it's not only donating to INAC or whatever, it's also volunteering to help teach children from BOTH sides of the divide the importance of tolerance and educating them about the negligible differences between Catholic and Protestant. I, in fact, work with someone who does this when I attend the state Student Government conventions. She volunteers for an organisation in Austin that does this. There are also services which are provided within the community itself, such as teaching the Irish Language, and primary schools teaching through the Irish Language medium.

tell me, what would you think if one of the political parties over there was sponsored to the tune of more than everyone else put together by some interested minority overseas?
I don't suppose I would like it very much.

look at what you're actually suggesting, here.
What was I suggesting... That the Nationalist community in the North doesn't trust the police force? That many of them prefer it over a loyalist-dominated police force? Well, am I wrong about those two suggestions? I didn't say that lawlessness is better than a good police, I'm not a barbarian. I'd love to see a fit police force that BOTH sides could accept.

If McCartney had been a protestant, you'd not have heard a word in the press from his sisters, it'd just have been another killing in Northern Ireland. Now, you're certainly right about that.


your description of Sinn Fein as a bunch of peace-loving, trustworthy individuals who deserve to be given money for their cause

So you'd rather see intimidation and rule by terrorists win out over the rule of law? **//:of course not://**  If Bush were trying this kind of stunt, you'd be all over him.  Take off the green-tinted spectacles and look at what you're actually suggesting, here.

And I'm going to do what you hate so much and blame the IRA for this one

Yes, they're the effin' IRA - bank robbery, extortion, protection rackets, smuggling, punishment beatings.  Yeah, they're the flippin' good guys, all right


This collection of statements seems to suggest that you think I am an all out IRA supporter, when I have said many times flat out that I do not approve of the behaviour they engage in. I even said that I've refrained from donating to INAC like many other members of my community have, even though they claim to be a charitable organisation to help former political prisoners and their families, just in case they had a financial connection with the IRA. Drug-trafficking, murder, beatings... etc. I do not support these things... the only thing I support is a unified Ireland.

I am not is a position to believe many of the things that I hear from the BBC or RTÉ or any American press service when it comes to Northern Ireland... I can only collect their stories and try to sort through the meanings between the lines to form my own conclusions. When the BBC flat out says the SF and IRA are basically one and the same, how am I supposed to simply believe that? Being so used to the bullshhh the American press puts out on a daily basis, I have a seriously difficult time believing anything I see/read on TV/News about anything.. especially when the government has a large stock in what's being said. This translates to even the BBC (whom I usually trust) when it comes to NI, since the British government has so much to gain by Sinn Féin being a bunch of thieving, murdering brigands. Combine that with the fact that I was reared believeing so strongly in the Republican cause, that I have an admitted bias.

The things you have shown me suggest that Sinn Féin haven't been the good guys in a lot of circumstances, and I believe you. Nevertheless, I still have faith that they can totally separate themselves from the IRA, clean up their act and still achieve re-unification. I have followed the SDLP just as long as I have Sinn Féin, and I have always seen them as too reticent and acquiescent to really get anything done for re-unification. I have always known Sinn Féin was on the more extreme end of the spectrum, and I think most Irish-Americans know it too (hell, I'm sure even most Sinn Féin members/supporters know it) but when people want something badly enough... well, you know.

I apologise, McD - I was making the jump from trying to "trying to understand" to "condoning" the actions of the Nationalist extremists.  You're right in that by and large the Nationalists don't trust the police (and prison staff: there was a chap last year who accused the prison staff in all seriousness of having trained their drugs dog to sniff out Nationalists, and saying there was a sectarian bias in the way the dog indicated where the drugs were.  Well, it made me laugh, anyway)

One of the somewhat sardonically amusing sights of the past couple of weeks, though, has been seeing the Sinn Fein spokesmen wriggling on the hook made for them by the IRA cover-up of McCartney's killing: the story has changed many times as they started off basically supporting the IRA's right to kill anyone (not in so many words, of course), then equivocating as the political wind changed, and now they're completely against such flagrant abuse of power in the cover-up.  The really sad thing is that there are so many people who are willing to believe them even as they do their 180º turnabout.


Because unlike other ethnic communities in the US, our community has always taken an active interest in the goings on of the country from which our predessecors came.

Unfortunately, the interest shown by the Irish-American community hasn't by and large been as enlightened as the position you have taken: it *has* been sponsoring terrorism for thirty plus years, helped in no small amount by the ridiculously one-sided propaganda that has been spread by the folks who are trying to get as much money in for their cause as possible.  You'd not believe the rubbish I've had told to me, sworn as gospel truth, about what the Brits have been doing in Ireland over the past few decades.  The most ironic part is that the majority of English people you'd speak to would be wholly in favour of divesting the UK of its most troublesome part - the two main reasons for not handing NI over to Dublin are i) the majority of people in the province don't want a united Ireland (though for obvious demographic reasons, that'll change at some point over the next dozen or so years), and ii) it would seem like the IRA had "won", and that's the last thing anyone over here would want to see.


Not to mention that Irish re-unification will, at long last, be a final symbol of the reversal of the oppression and sadness that drove many of our ancestors to emmigrate in the first place.

I am frequently somewhat rude about the Orangemen and their tendency to let events of four hundred years ago rule their current social and political thinking, so in the interests of balance I feel that I should point out that this was an awful long time ago, and perpetrated by nobody within living memory.  It's a bit like asking for directions, and in classic Irish tradition (this happened on the only time that we asked for directions in Ireland, and I've been loth to ask again in case it breaks a 100% tradition), being told "well, I wouldn't be starting from here if I were you" - as things stand, a unified Ireland wouldn't solve anything: you'd just be moving to a different set of problems.


And I hope you will be pleasantly surprised to know that it's not only donating to INAC or whatever, it's also volunteering to help teach children from BOTH sides of the divide the importance of tolerance and educating them about the negligible differences between Catholic and Protestant. I, in fact, work with someone who does this when I attend the state Student Government conventions. She volunteers for an organisation in Austin that does this. There are also services which are provided within the community itself, such as teaching the Irish Language, and primary schools teaching through the Irish Language medium.

Yes, I am pleasantly surprised :)  Well, not so surprised, really...