UKVisitor's topic on the U.S.A. was rather interesting. The way it connects Britain and America, it was very touching I think.

As I sat reading it, I glanced down at my class ring. Which happens to have a Union Jack on it.

This got me to thinking about something..

I see myself as a British-American. This is a natural thing to me, I have always felt an affinity for the "old country" for some reason. Noone else in my family does. Not my uncles, my aunts, my cousins, my parents, my brother-just me. And the more I thought about it, the more I realized. British-Americans have a very, very weak sense of ethnic identity compared to other ethnic groups in this country.

It seems to me that the British-American identity is built around the history of British people here in THIS country, and less around the "old country". Thus, British identity here is kind of usurped by national American identity. We don't have much of an individual identity that stands out from the 'American' identity'.  Yet this does not happen with most other ethnic groups, who have maintained stronger ties to their homelands.

I wonder why this is?

Any thoughts, or hypothesis?

it might have something to do with the fact that the British were violently kicked out of America and then tried to invade thirty years later.

Sorry :-\\ all we wanted was for you to worship the king with his shiny crown. I guess we got our own back with Elizabeth taylor and more recently Catherine Zeta  ;)

I think maybe it has something to do with the fact that with Asians, Hispanics, Arabs, Indians, etc. are more specifically "Japanese-American" or "Chinese-American", etc. than someone like me and many others of European Descent.  On my mom's side I am Irish, British, German, and Dutch.  My father was Italian and Jewish (Israeli, not Jewish religion)

Kinda hard to identify with all my ethnic backgrounds.  If people ask, I just say I'm Italian since I'm more Italian than any other...

it might have something to do with the fact that the British were violently kicked out of America and then tried to invade thirty years later.


So? Thats in the past.

I like Britain right now more than America. They are now the civilized, decent people in my opinion and we the imperialistic barbarians. ;)

I think maybe it has something to do with the fact that with Asians, Hispanics, Arabs, Indians, etc. are more specifically "Japanese-American" or "Chinese-American", etc. than someone like me and many others of European Descent. On my mom's side I am Irish, British, German, and Dutch. My father was Italian and Jewish (Israeli, not Jewish religion)

Kinda hard to identify with all my ethnic backgrounds. If people ask, I just say I'm Italian since I'm more Italian than any other...


In all fairness, you are mixed. I am about 15% Native American, but besides that, I'm all Brit. No German or anything.

And those of predominately British heritage still make up a big chunk of the population, although that group is slowly decreasing.

So? Thats in the past.



Uhhh... weren't we talking about ethnic backgrounds??  Ethnic backgrounds usually ARE in the past..

Uhhh... weren't we talking about ethnic backgrounds?? Ethnic backgrounds usually ARE in the past..


Ethan seemed to imply we should reject who we are because of the events of the Revolution and the subsequent war of 1812. Those events are over and done with, so it would seem silly to me to carry on some sort of grudge over them. Especially post-World War II.

Ethan seemed to imply we should reject who we are because of the events of the Revolution and the subsequent war of 1812. Those events are over and done with, so it would seem silly to me to carry on some sort of grudge over them. Especially post-World War II.


Oops, I thought that was a response to my post... sorry.. my mistake.. i'm kinda tired..

I'm about 60% British, 40% Irish :)  I think the reason Americans don't think of it is because they speak (more or less) the same language there, so we don't see em as wholly foreign.

I'm about 60% British, 40% Irish :) I think the reason Americans don't think of it is because they speak (more or less) the same language there, so we don't see em as wholly foreign.


Irish=British

British is a blanket term for any nationality from the British Isles, which includes Ireland. So you are 100% British actually.

Irish=British

British is a blanket term for any nationality from the British Isles, which includes Ireland. So you are 100% British actually.


Sweet! I think I'm Native American in spirit. 

I think the reason is because the break with Britain came so long ago for America. The War of Independence was more than 230 years ago, and since then America has adopted its own currency and legal systems, its own nuances of language and voting systems. You even drive on the opposite side of the road; your nuts and bolts have a thread opposite to the way it is in Britain and you even register the date in reverse. :)

Almost every other country where English is the main language has yet to break from the British crown, so the ties with Britain are that much stronger. The same could be said for a lot of ethnic communities in America, who only left their roots in their native lands perhaps as recently as this generation.

Irish=British

British is a blanket term for any nationality from the British Isles, which includes Ireland. So you are 100% British actually.


Excuse me, but this is a little bit like saying that "Americans" is a blanket term for anyone from North America, including Canadians and Mexicans. British is only a blanket term for any nationality from the British Isles if you're an American. I've never heard an Australian or a Brit suggest this. Britain and Ireland are two different countries, therefore you are either British, or Irish.

Excuse me, but this is a little bit like saying that "Americans" is a blanket term for anyone from North America, including Canadians and Mexicans. British is only a blanket term for any nationality from the British Isles if you're an American. I've never heard an Australian or a Brit suggest this. Britain and Ireland are two different countries, therefore you are either British, or Irish.


I disagree.

As someone of Welsh ancestry, this is perplexing. Why are the Irish to be set aside from the other nationalities of the British isles? That doesn't make much sense. Look, the Welsh, Scots, and Irish are all CELTIC, and the English/Anglos are actually of Germanic origin. So really, if any ethnic should be excluded from the rest of them in the British isles, it is the English, not the Irish. And what about Northern Irish? Should they be cut off from the rest of their people because of some modern borders?

I'm not talking in terms of legal citizenship and modern borders/definition. I am talking ethnicity and culture. And in this sense, the Irish ARE British. If they are not British in this sense, then the same can easily be argued for the Welsh and Scotish. Which would relegate the term British to being a synonym for English(which, I sometimes suspect is what the English want ;) ).

I disagree.

As someone of Welsh ancestry, this is perplexing. Why are the Irish to be set aside from the other nationalities of the British isles? That doesn't make much sense. Look, the Welsh, Scots, and Irish are all CELTIC, and the English/Anglos are actually of Germanic origin. So really, if any ethnic should be excluded from the rest of them in the British isles, it is the English, not the Irish. And what about Northern Irish? Should they be cut off from the rest of their people because of some modern borders?

I'm not talking in terms of legal citizenship and modern borders/definition. I am talking ethnicity and culture. And in this sense, the Irish ARE British. If they are not British in this sense, then the same can easily be argued for the Welsh and Scotish. Which would relegate the term British to being a synonym for English(which, I sometimes suspect is what the English want ;) ).


The Welsh are really more Celtic and "British" than anyone else.  The Irish originally were Celts from Spain, the Welsh were in Britain way before the Nordic English, which are almost Vikings really.

The Welsh are really more Celtic and "British" than anyone else. The Irish originally were Celts from Spain, the Welsh were in Britain way before the Nordic English, which are almost Vikings really.


See, this is where the problem lies. Who REALLY owns the term British? I don't think any of the nationalities in the Isles should be excluded, it should be the term for anyone from them. Because if you go into the business of deciding who is and who isn't British(and I'm not talking in terms of citizenship and the 'modern' definition, im talking culture), you run into many conflicts over the title. Its better for everyone to accept it as a title for all four groups. That is my opinion.

See, this is where the problem lies. Who REALLY owns the term British? I don't think any of the nationalities in the Isles should be excluded, it should be the term for anyone from them. Because if you go into the business of deciding who is and who isn't British(and I'm not talking in terms of citizenship and the 'modern' definition, im talking culture), you run into many conflicts over the title. Its better for everyone to accept it as a title for all four groups. That is my opinion.


Definitely.  I think the Britons from Brittany, France can also claim it.

Hey Dude, you read "Atlas of the Celts"?  Great book  8)

-DR

I disagree.

As someone of Welsh ancestry, this is perplexing. Why are the Irish to be set aside from the other nationalities of the British isles? That doesn't make much sense. Look, the Welsh, Scots, and Irish are all CELTIC, and the English/Anglos are actually of Germanic origin. So really, if any ethnic should be excluded from the rest of them in the British isles, it is the English, not the Irish. And what about Northern Irish? Should they be cut off from the rest of their people because of some modern borders?

I'm not talking in terms of legal citizenship and modern borders/definition. I am talking ethnicity and culture. And in this sense, the Irish ARE British. If they are not British in this sense, then the same can easily be argued for the Welsh and Scotish. Which would relegate the term British to being a synonym for English(which, I sometimes suspect is what the English want ;) ).


What I said is correct because Scotland, Wales and England are all part of Great Britain, and Ireland isn't. Also, Northern Ireland is part of Britain, and they are cut off from the rest of their people. What do you the fighting there has been all about? You can't use the term British when you're talking about the Irish, because they're not British. You could argue that Danes, Swedes, Norwegians, Finns and Icelanders are all the same too because they're all of Viking heritage, but you'd start a fight if you did it.

What I said is correct because Scotland, Wales and England are all part of Great Britain, and Ireland isn't. Also, Northern Ireland is part of Britain, and they are cut off from the rest of their people. What do you the fighting there has been all about? You can't use the term British when you're talking about the Irish, because they're not British. You could argue that Danes, Swedes, Norwegians, Finns and Icelanders are all the same too because they're all of Viking heritage, but you'd start a fight if you did it.


I don't care about the BORDERS! Do you not understand that? I am not talking in legal, citizenship definitions. I am talking heritage, I am talking culture.

In reality, my people have more right to the word British than the English(they invaded and took over, the Britons were there first, and the Anglos had the audacity to re-name them Welsh from old English world 'wealas'(foreigner) in their own homeland)! But am I complaining? No.

Last time I checked, Ireland is part of the British Isles.

I don't care about the BORDERS! Do you not understand that? I am not talking in legal, citizenship definitions. I am talking heritage, I am talking culture.

In reality, my people have more right to the word British than the English(they invaded and took over, the Britons were there first, and the Anglos had the audacity to re-name them Welsh from old English world 'wealas'(foreigner) in their own homeland)! But am I complaining? No.

Last time I checked, Ireland is part of the British Isles.


IMO Britain is Ireland, Great Britain, all the lesser isles, and Brittany in France.  Brittany wouldn't the Isles though of course.

There is a difference between cultural & legal here too... for example, Puerto Rico is a territory of the US but I don't think many would consider residents of Puerto Rico to be Americans.

I don't care about the BORDERS! Do you not understand that? I am not talking in legal, citizenship definitions. I am talking heritage, I am talking culture.

In reality, my people have more right to the word British than the English(they invaded and took over, the Britons were there first, and the Anglos had the audacity to re-name them Welsh from old English world 'wealas'(foreigner) in their own homeland)! But am I complaining? No.

Last time I checked, Ireland is part of the British Isles.


I can see your point, but I dare you to walk into an Irish gathering and refer to them as British. ;)  From a historical perspective, you're right, inasmuch as all the peoples you have listed are from the British Isles; however, even historically, the term Britain only refers to part of it.

There is a difference between cultural & legal here too... for example, Puerto Rico is a territory of the US but I don't think many would consider residents of Puerto Rico to be Americans.


Even if they did, do Puerto Ricans consider themselves to be Americans?

Even if they did, do Puerto Ricans consider themselves to be Americans?


Honestly... I don't know any.  So I haven't asked..

Honestly... I don't know any.  So I haven't asked..


:) Well, I know quite a lot of Irish people, and they certainly don't consider themselves as British. The Scots don't really like it either.

:) Well, I know quite a lot of Irish people, and they certainly don't consider themselves as British. The Scots don't really like it either.


So..then British IS to be used as a synonym for English, basically..that is problematic, don't you think? As an American who is no longer as caught up in the conflicts of the 'old country' and you as an aussie as well should be able to see my point unbiased: They really are MUCH MUCH more alike than different. They are almost identical infact in comparison to the French or Germans. So don't you think it would be a good thing to have an across the bord adjective for the nationalities of the British isles? And what other word could that possibly be than British?

See my point now?

Then is there even any use for the term "British"?

There is English, Scottish, Welsh & Irish.

Although "American" technically would cover Canadians, Mexicans, Peruvians, Brazilians, etc. the U.S. is the only country that identifies with "American" because there is no "United Statesian" or any other such word.  If there were, the term American would not even be necessary.

Then is there even any use for the term "British"?

There is English, Scottish, Welsh & Irish.

Although "American" technically would cover Canadians, Mexicans, Peruvians, Brazilians, etc. the U.S. is the only country that identifies with "American" because there is no "United Statesian" or any other such word.  If there were, the term American would not even be necessary.


But you see, all four of them are really about 90% alike and about 10% different. They speak the same language(Gaelic is almost dead and Welsh is only used moderately and as more of a 'at home' language), and they share their history. They have all inhabitied the isles for centuries now. I think its silly that they continue to try and put walls of seperation inbetween themselves. They are even worse than the Spanish about this it seems.

And I might add, in Spain, the Castillians, Galicians, Basques, and Catalonians are seperated by different languages, yet the English/Scots/Welsh/Irish who all share ONE language seem to have a harder time getting along. Just dumb imo.

Well I am a little lost on this topic - I'm not much of a world history buff...

We will hopefully get a perspective from Alcoholica or someone else who lives over there (Now I don't know whether to say England or Britain  :-[)

They would probably understand it alot better than we do...

I'm all politicked out for tonite.  Off to bed.

So..then British IS to be used as a synonym for English, basically..that is problematic, don't you think? As an American who is no longer as caught up in the conflicts of the 'old country' and you as an aussie as well should be able to see my point unbiased: They really are MUCH MUCH more alike than different. They are almost identical infact in comparison to the French or Germans. So don't you think it would be a good thing to have an across the bord adjective for the nationalities of the British isles? And what other word could that possibly be than British?

See my point now?


Believe me, I've seen your point all along, and it IS problematic, unfortunately. Maybe we should wait for some of our British friends to join this thread and see what they think? You are correct in saying that they are much more alike than different, but because you are so far removed from them you can't really appreciate how they see the differences themselves.

And I might add, in Spain, the Castillians, Galicians, Basques, and Catalonians are seperated by different languages, yet the English/Scots/Welsh/Irish who all share ONE language seem to have a harder time getting along. Just dumb imo.


Actually, the Scots, Welsh and Irish all speak English, but only because their own native languages were repressed by their English overlords. The natives of Cornwall in England used to speak their own language too, but I don't think there are any native speakers of Cornish anymore.

Actually, the Scots, Welsh and Irish all speak English, but only because their own native languages were repressed by their English overlords. The natives of Cornwall in England used to speak their own language too, but I don't think there are any native speakers of Cornish anymore.


Yeah, I am aware of the circumstances of WHY they use English, I am just saying, their main language is now basically English. Welsh is the only one still in healthy condition(the others are almost extinct), Welsh has co-lingual status with English in Wales, and about 1 in 3 Welsh supposedly speak at least some. However, it is more of an 'at home' language I think, English is used in school, business, etc.

This is sort of offtopic too. Because the subject is about British identity in American society, and on this side of the Pond the term "British" usually refers to all four groups.Or at least, that is always how I have heard it used.

This is all very frustrating. The Irish kind of bug me sometimes, because they are a bit too persistent with the whole "WE ARE DIFFERENT FROM THE ENGLISH" thing. If they can argue that, then the Welsh and Scots can easily argue the same thing. And if you go in that direction, why have the term Britain at all? And in the worst case scenario, why have a Great Britain? Why not four completely seperate countries?

Its a slippery slope, and I can definitely understand how this caused so much fighting..but why? Just pride? I don't know. I guess we should just wait on furthering this dicussion until our British(;) ) friends can add their views.

Well... ooh, where to start except to say you're all correct. The generic term for Ireland, the channel islands of Jersey, Guernsey and umm, the other one  ??? and mainland Britain is "The British Isles" which would, regardless of what our good Gaelic Irish friends might wish, does make them, in some sense British.

Now the United Kingdom refers to Wales, Scotland, England and Wales as a political entity. Since Devolution Wales and Scotland now have their own parliaments with varying degrees of legislative and tax raising powers as well as remaining wholly governed by westminster in Lond. Its a bit like the State/Federal split in the USA but with less powers at the state level currently (its still in its infancy). Northern Ireland has also got its own devolved parliament but the Unionists and Sinn Fein are still, as always *sigh*, arguing with each other over who sits where and who gets to be king (sad but a whole new topic not for here).

Now to history, if we go right back to the dawn of man in Europe, it was the Iberians who followed the herds of animals up to Britain from Spain/Italy (which is why so many of the Welsh, like myself, have Latin good looks  ;) ). Then came the Vikings, the Romans, the Germans, the French and pretty much anyone who was passing by until the British got a bit miffed at being invaded and told everyone to naff off - especially the French - when Henry the 5th did all his Shakespeare speeches and then Cate Blanchett as Liz the first got frustrated at the lack of nooky and battered the Spanish Armada.

Since then Britain took the line "Fog over the English Channel, Europe Isolated (genuine WW!! headline  ;D ) as our model for attitude to the World until we were told to give our Empire back (yes, even the nice bits we'd been hiding behind our back :\'( ) and started getting all European.

I think all these arguments as to 'who you are and what is your heritage' are interesting but also hark back to a natural desire to claim an identity. I mean, like everyone else, I'm part Welsh, part American, part Australian (don't ask), part idiot and part genius  ;) . Makes rascism seem even more ludicrous doesn't it when we all look back into our heritage.

On my passport I am British and on its cover it says I'm European. Home: Planet Earth - Species: Homo Erectus.

That'll do for me  ;)

I think all these arguments as to 'who you are and what is your heritage' are interesting but also hark back to a natural desire to claim an identity. I mean, like everyone else, I'm part Welsh, part American, part Australian (don't ask), part idiot and part genius  ;) . Makes rascism seem even more ludicrous doesn't it when we all look back into our heritage.



Why "don't ask" about the part Australian heritage?? 

This also explains why all black Americans, regardless of whether their ancestry traces back to Africa, tend to be described, by others, as "African American" despite constantly correcting those who use the term in their earshot and why so many whose ethnic background appears to be Asian, but whose facial features most Americans don't associate with a specific country in Asia are simply described as "Asian Americans."  (Same thing with blanket terms such as Hispanic,  Latin American, Latino and Spanish American.)  Bigotry driving the mainstream recognition of terms intended to celebrate ethnic heritage also explains why the term "Arab American" has been almost completely replaced in the mainstream by "Muslim American" even though not all Muslims are Arab and not all Arabs are Muslim.


I can see what you are saying. Perhaps it is a form of discrimination still in the mainstream to designate groups seperate, as "African-American" and what not. And since Brits ran the political establishment here for so long, then of course OTHER groups would get labeled seperately, while we were the ones who maintained the "just plain old American" label, in order to maintain cultural/political dominance. Actually, we  still do, but maybe not as much. Take Bush for example. The Bushes are descendants from a particular British family that was tied into the House of Lords, and on his mother's side I believe(I may be wrong it could be his father's), he is a distant cousin to the Windsors. This country is very oligarchic in my view. Many of our Presidents(the majority), as well as some of the more powerful governors and senators in our history came from old, aristocratic British families who have been here since before the American revolution. Actually, my family is "colonial" and not immigrant on BOTH sides(meaning they came here pre-Revolution as subjects of the British Empire).

I don't know about my mother's family as to WHY they came here. However, my father's family, my Welsh side, came here as fugitives. Can you guess it? They were trying to escape debtor's prison.

Well... ooh, where to start except to say you're all correct. The generic term for Ireland, the channel islands of Jersey, Guernsey and umm, the other one ??? and mainland Britain is "The British Isles" which would, regardless of what our good Gaelic Irish friends might wish, does make them, in some sense British.

I believe the name you are looking for is "Isle of Man", though I could be wrong.

Now the United Kingdom refers to Wales, Scotland, England and Wales as a political entity. Since Devolution Wales and Scotland now have their own parliaments with varying degrees of legislative and tax raising powers as well as remaining wholly governed by westminster in Lond. Its a bit like the State/Federal split in the USA but with less powers at the state level currently (its still in its infancy). Northern Ireland has also got its own devolved parliament but the Unionists and Sinn Fein are still, as always *sigh*, arguing with each other over who sits where and who gets to be king (sad but a whole new topic not for here).

Yeah, I knew about the Welsh Parliament. Pretty interesting development..from everything I have read, Wales has had sort of a revival of national identity in the past few years. But unlike the Irish, its not as much based in resentment against the English. Its just more of a positive patriotism. Also, thanks to that act that was passed a few years ago by Parliament(can't recall the name), the Welsh language is slowly being restored. Welsh language radio and things of that nature are supposedly growing. I'd like to learn Welsh, but I will definitely have to find a school that teaches it. And perhaps do a study program in Wales. Its too hard of a language to just learn on your own I think.

Now to history, if we go right back to the dawn of man in Europe, it was the Iberians who followed the herds of animals up to Britain from Spain/Italy (which is why so many of the Welsh, like myself, have Latin good looks  Wink ).

Wow, you know what, THAT MAKES SO MUCH SENSE. I've always been told that I look Italian, or sometimes Hispanic, and I was even mistaken for Lebanese once(whilst I was studying the religion of Islam, I visited a mosque and this Lebanese man there tried to talk to me in Arabic). And that would definitely explain why the Welsh national treasure known as Catherine Zeta-Jones(;) ) looks like she does..when she was in the Mask of Zorro I figured she was Spanish, I was so shocked to find out shes 100% Welsh.

I think all these arguments as to 'who you are and what is your heritage' are interesting but also hark back to a natural desire to claim an identity.

I think you are right.

Why "don't ask" about the part Australian heritage?? 


Heh heh - lets just say that someone's *ahem* grandfather was a merchant seaman and he travelled the world as did his semen, girl in every port, etc. Not a slur on the Aussies at all  ;) The original Old Dirty B****d  ;D

Heh heh - lets just say that someone's *ahem* grandfather was a merchant seaman and he travelled the world as did his semen, girl in every port, etc. Not a slur on the Aussies at all ;) The original Old Dirty B****d ;D


I can relate. My great grandfather on my father's side was a travelling salesman, and he had four families(that did not know of eachother until later on), and also many illegit children from one night stands. When WWII rolled around, he had to sign papers for over 100 boys.

Whoa Duderino, Christmas musta cost a fortune and how big was the Thanksgiving Turkey? Or would an Ostrich have been better?

Whoa Duderino, Christmas musta cost a fortune and how big was the Thanksgiving Turkey? Or would an Ostrich have been better?


Heh, well he was very wealthy. He owned a couple of companies, he was a travelling salesman(selling could make a lot of money back then), and my uncle thinks he might have had some "under the table" dealings that generated capital for him as well. My grandfather always was well taken care of growing up. His father wasn't around much(maybe about 3 months out of the year, they were his 'main' family sort of), but when he did come around he didn't neglect or ignore him and his siblings.

He wasn't really an A**HOLE, just too extravagant with his sex life(maybe he was a nymph, I dunno).

As a few people have pointed it, it really started with the American Revolution. The American people did not want anything associated with the British. After the Boston Tea Party, most Americans switch to coffee because tea was "too British". It may have stopped after one generation back in the late 18th century except for the fact that the U.S. was once again engaged in war with Britian during the War of 1812. So there were two generations that dispised the British and tried to "do away" with everything that would link the two cultures. Now, after a couple of centuries, there seems to be little left to link the two. As Carlos says (sorry honey, I'm stealing your thunder) we are two nations seperated by a common language.





Cat

As a few people have pointed it, it really started with the American Revolution. The American people did not want anything associated with the British. After the Boston Tea Party, most Americans switch to coffee because tea was "too British". It may have stopped after one generation back in the late 18th century except for the fact that the U.S. was once again engaged in war with Britian during the War of 1812. So there were two generations that dispised the British and tried to "do away" with everything that would link the two cultures. Now, after a couple of centuries, there seems to be little left to link the two. As Carlos says (sorry honey, I'm stealing your thunder) we are two nations seperated by a common language.





Cat


This is all correct (except that the "two nations seperated by a common language" is, I think, Winston Churchill), but there is another eliment, I think.  The farther (temporally) one is removed from "the old country" the less pull it usually has, with one exception.  First generation immigrants tend to want to become 100% "American", whatever that means.  Their kids tend to want to rediscover parts at least of the old culture.  Their kids usually could care less.  So aside from the early animosity between us and the British militrary, there is the time eliment.  I maintain my Puerto Rican connection because it is very real to my life experience.  It is less so with my kids, and especially with tyhe younger ones, who experienced it less.  Unless they visit often and regularly, thjeir kids will feel less and less affinity.  Time heals all wounds - and wounds all heals  ;)  ;)

Irish=British



No it's not.  Great Britain, the nation that existed during the American revolution, consisted of England and Scotland.  Ireland was a seperate nation. 

England, Scotland, and Ireland exited. Then, if I remember correctly, England joined up with Scotland in 1707 to become Great Britain, then Ireland joined up God knows when and they became the United Kingdom, though very few people (including me) use the official name (United Kingdom.)

If you say British, you speak of England and Scotland.  The correct terms are English, Irish and Scottish.

So? Thats in the past.

I like Britain right now more than America. They are now the civilized, decent people in my opinion and we the imperialistic barbarians. ;)


HA! You haven't seen the real Britain have you.

There are plenty of excellent things about this fair isle.. there are also plenty of downright awful things.

Did you know we are guarenteed no rights whatsoever.. that's right, we are the only civilised country in the world not to have a codified constitution. Boy that sucks.. you wonder why so many law suits against Newspapers and reporters are bought over here.. it's because we don't have anything silly like.. i don't know.. Freedom of Speech. Oh sure we 'have' it.. but as we can see from what Gruppen Fuher Blair is doing right now, none of our rights are guarenteed.

At the moment, if you don't look right, i dunno... your Arabic, then boy your fudgeed in the a**!

You can be arrested, you can be locked up with no charges what so ever and this can be done at any time any where. You guys had to at least have the Patriot Act pass before this could happen.

Now, i am fully aware of the Welfare Spongers that GW likes to talk about.. and to some extent i have to agree.. you see we have a higher percentage of them than just about any country in the world.

Now, unlike certian Right Wing Bigots, i have actually seen these people and can atest, there are whole familys that have never worked, they just play the system, most city's in Britian have a ring of 'Council Estates' surrounding them.

About 50% of the people living there are good honest hard working people, the other 50% are what i like to call the 'Burberry Classes'. These are people who don't work, don't want to work and are happy to go to the Job Centre every tuesday and pick up there Welfare Cheque.

I went to a school smack dab in the middle of one of these places and it isn't just a stereotype, that's what a large percentage of these people are like.

I hate to bash Britain so much, but it is not the green and pleasant land of Cinema.


No it's not.  Great Britain, the nation that existed during the American revolution, consisted of England and Scotland.  Ireland was a seperate nation. 

England, Scotland, and Ireland exited. Then, if I remember correctly, England joined up with Scotland in 1707 to become Great Britain, then Ireland joined up God knows when and they became the United Kingdom, though very few people (including me) use the official name (United Kingdom.)

If you say British, you speak of England and Scotland. The correct terms are English, Irish and Scottish.


GW, i believe you will find that my beloved Ireland isn't actually part of the United Kingdom, Northern Ireland however is. Of course, if the Government and crown actually thought they had any real claim on Northern Ireland they wouldn't call it that, they'd treat it as if it were a real part of the U.K.

You will also find that due to the fact that we are all just labled British, there is a lot of nationalistic histility. The scots dont like the english, the english don't like the scots and the welsh, the welsh seem fairly happy to just get on with things.

Also The Catholic Protestant split is prevelant all over the U.K Not just in Northern Ireland. Although Officially England belongs to The Proddy Dog's a large percentage of the population is Catholic. Of course you have heard of the great Rivalry between Glasgow Celtic (The Catholic, & better club) and Rangers (the proddy dog club) well that is repeated all over Scotland.

Andy, I didn't know that Britain doesn't have a codified Constitution. :o

Well..if the U.K. accepts the E.U. constitution, THEN you will have guaranteed rights, because that is part of what the E.U. constitution is I believe(a guarantee of certain rights in all countries that ratify it). Although, it looks like it will have a hard time getting passed in the U.K. which is just dumb imo. Considering all of the problems with Blair, and the fact that the current government doesn't guarantee fundamental rights as you say, I'd take my chance with Brussels if I were in your shoes.

Andy, I didn't know that Britain doesn't have a codified Constitution. :o

Well..if the U.K. accepts the E.U. constitution, THEN you will have guaranteed rights, because that is part of what the E.U. constitution is I believe(a guarantee of certain rights in all countries that ratify it). Although, it looks like it will have a hard time getting passed in the U.K. which is just dumb imo. Considering all of the problems with Blair, and the fact that the current government doesn't guarantee fundamental rights as you say, I'd take my chance with Brussels if I were in your shoes.


I'm sure the majority of citizens in Britain don't want to join the EU.  They want to be different, which I know the left hates.

And they do have rights.  Remember the UK Human Rights Act 1998, which came into force on the October 02, 2000?  http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts1998/19980042.htm

Andy, I didn't know that Britain doesn't have a codified Constitution. :o

Well..if the U.K. accepts the E.U. constitution, THEN you will have guaranteed rights, because that is part of what the E.U. constitution is I believe(a guarantee of certain rights in all countries that ratify it). Although, it looks like it will have a hard time getting passed in the U.K. which is just dumb imo. Considering all of the problems with Blair, and the fact that the current government doesn't guarantee fundamental rights as you say, I'd take my chance with Brussels if I were in your shoes.


No, i'm happier taking chances with the Government as it stands. Until Brussels sorts it'self out i would vote against getting further in bed with them.

As soon as the EU Parliament can start sorting things out in a reasonable manner without the vast expenses they currently suck up then i would be happy to vote for any reseloution pushing us further in.

No the left dosen't hate people being different GW, in fact at the moment 'the crazy left' are the only people who aren't Mindfudge clones.

Yes we have Human Rights but we have none of the kind of rights that the U.S Constitution gives.

Modded to add: I actually do have those rights.. but my fellow countrymen don't

Yes we have Human Rights but we have none of the kind of rights that the U.S Constitution gives.



Tell me that Article 9 of the human rights act of the United Kingdom doesn't read like the first amendment to the United States Constitution:

Article 9. Freedom of thought, conscience and religion

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.

Tell me that Article 9 of the human rights act of the United Kingdom doesn't read like the first amendment to the United States Constitution:

Article 9. Freedom of thought, conscience and religion

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.


True True, however the Government of the United Kingdom does not protect these rights. They are supposed to, but at the end of the day it is not there job to do so. That is why every country in the world has Human Rights inspectors that come around and have a good check.

It just goes to show how backwards we are that we have to be protected by something like this.

If we were to adopt a codified constitution with a guarenteed bill of rights i would feel considerably better off.

I'm sure the majority of citizens in Britain don't want to join the EU.  They want to be different, which I know the left hates.


First sentence I'll agree with, but not because we want to be 'different'...

It's a case of what actual benefit it's going to be for us...we've actually been 'in' the EU since 1973 and, to my mind, it's benefits are far outweighed by the bureucracy and corruption that goes on within the organisation...

People have (thankfully) started to realise this...

But when you're not even sure what rights your leaders have 'signed away' (Major's as much to blame as Blair), then what chance have you got...?

When all's said and done, it's something that is proving difficult to sell...ask Tone...

First sentence I'll agree with, but not because we want to be 'different'...

It's a case of what actual benefit it's going to be for us...we've actually been 'in' the EU since 1973 and, to my mind, it's benefits are far outweighed by the bureucracy and corruption that goes on within the organisation...

People have (thankfully) started to realise this...

But when you're not even sure what rights your leaders have 'signed away' (Major's as much to blame as Blair), then what chance have you got...?

When all's said and done, it's something that is proving difficult to sell...ask Tone...


When you actually get past a lot of the piffle in the EU Constitution.. it guarentees sod all of any benefit. Just makes vague promises of future beneficial amendments and laws.

(Major's as much to blame as Blair)




I think many have been under the impression (maybe up until this war on terror) that if a country has a queen or king, that is the person who makes the decisions... since a king or queen is a monarch, it would make sense that a king or queen would have more political power than a president of a democracy...  I know many people were surprised to learn that Tony Blair (PM) plays the role of "leader", and not the Queen. 

What role does the Queen play in politics?

I think many have been under the impression (maybe up until this war on terror) that if a country has a queen or king, that is the person who makes the decisions... since a king or queen is a monarch, it would make sense that a king or queen would have more political power than a president of a democracy...  I know many people were surprised to learn that Tony Blair (PM) plays the role of "leader", and not the Queen. 

What role does the Queen play in politics?


The Queen has no real power nowadays. She still has to sign every act (bill) that is passed before her, and she can refuse to, however that dosen't happen.

She opens and closes Parliament and does a few other jobs. For a long time now the Monarchy has just been a rather expensive burdon on the taxpayer... however that is offset by the amnount of Tourist Revenue that they all bring in.

Essentially Blair and his lot run the coutry, Parliament is there to make sure they don't have too much power, but alas, power has become very much Centralised under this labour government, and as such Parliament 'currently' has about as much power as my dog.

That sucks, Andy.

Hopefully Labour will replace him after the elections.

That sucks, Andy.

Hopefully Labour will replace him after the elections.


It's case of who.. I actually have supported the Conservative party for the past few years.. at the time of my starting supporting them, there leader was a chap called William hague, he was basically the most left of centre conservative i can think of. Tremendous chap, funny to boot. He would have made an outstanding leader IMO as long as he had a good cabinet, which unfortunatley is something the Conservatives cannot provide.

At the moment the only 'real' liberal party (the liberal democrats) are un-electable, which just leaves me to hope that Gordon Brown becomes leader of the Labour Party. He is a very sensible, level headed chap who IMO is slightly more left leaning than the Neo facist Tony Bliar.

It's case of who.. I actually have supported the Conservative party for the past few years.. at the time of my starting supporting them, there leader was a chap called William hague, he was basically the most left of centre conservative i can think of. Tremendous chap, funny to boot. He would have made an outstanding leader IMO as long as he had a good cabinet, which unfortunatley is something the Conservatives cannot provide.

At the moment the only 'real' liberal party (the liberal democrats) are un-electable, which just leaves me to hope that Gordon Brown becomes leader of the Labour Party. He is a very sensible, level headed chap who IMO is slightly more left leaning than the Neo facist Tony Bliar.


What's "Conservative" in the UK, Andy?  About John Kerry position?

Just a note, parliament in the UK has been proved to work recently wherein the government was defeated, whether they admit it of not, on the Terrorist bill allowing detention without trial of suspects. With a second chamber, the House of Lords, taking a stance against the ludicrous legislation and forcing a sunset clause be included to allow parliament to review the legislation in 12 months time.

I'm sorry but I cannot bring myself to ever supprt the Conservative/Tory party. They are bereft of ideas, morals and credibility and are sorely in danger of becoming the third party in UK politics. Tory Boy Hague was a joke, Ian Duncan Smith was a dead loss and Michael Howard may charm the blue-rinse set but has no attraction to the majority of the population. Maybe if they'd brought in Ken Clarke when they had a chance things would be different but he was Pro-European which is anathema to the Tories in general.

The Liberal party has some nice ideas but then its so long since they've held any power in the UK above local council level that they can say things like, lets legalise all drugs (a good idea in my book... not because i want to get stoned, for other reasons) in the sure and certain knowledge that they'll never have to implement the policies. And Charles Kennedy is a decent leader but will not be accepted by the media-spun voting public.

As to having a constitution in the UK, we are party to many international treaties and agreements as well as our own and, I was a firm believer in the need for a UK constitution for many years until I saw how easily it has been usurped in the USA to meet the exigencies of the government. If a constitution was to be put forward, I would still support it dependent on what it actually was attempting to constitute.

Don't know what this has to do with the topic but, hey... just going with the flow  ;)

You know whats funny, in the UK, the Republican Party would probably be seen as not much better than the British National Party. ;D

At least with the current leadership, people like Dick Cheney, George W. Bush, and Tom Delay. However, more moderate Republicans like Christine Whitman would probably still be seen as more conservative than most British Conservatives. My, we ARE on the right wing over here, aren't we? :(

You know whats funny, in the UK, the Republican Party would probably be seen as not much better than the British National Party. ;D

At least with the current leadership, people like dip Cheney, George W. Bush, and Tom Delay. However, more moderate Republicans like Christine Whitman would probably still be seen as more conservative than most British Conservatives. My, we ARE on the right wing over here, aren't we? :(

Is the British National Party a pack of extreme tories?
???

I'd like to learn Welsh, but I will definitely have to find a school that teaches it. And perhaps do a study program in Wales. Its too hard of a language to just learn on your own I think.




Have a look here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/learnwelsh/

Have a look here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/learnwelsh/


That is cool, Karen. We have a lot of Welsh descendants around here. I don't know if anyone really speaks the language around here or not, but some may.



Cat

My husband is Welsh but is from a part of South Wales where the vast majority speak English.  There was a Welsh-speaking school in his village for a few years but it closed through low numbers.

A friend of his from uni is from North Wales and she spoke Welsh at home, school and in the general community.  It is not a dead language like Gaelic.

Is the British National Party a pack of extreme tories?
???


Yes.

My husband is Welsh but is from a part of South Wales where the vast majority speak English.  There was a Welsh-speaking school in his village for a few years but it closed through low numbers.

A friend of his from uni is from North Wales and she spoke Welsh at home, school and in the general community.  It is not a dead language like Gaelic.


Gaelic is not a dead language either, unless you're talking about Manx Gaelic. Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic still have native speakers, although their status has been in constant danger for generations.

Irish is the Republic of Ireland's first official language, and there are several communities throughout Ireland called Gaeltachts where Irish is used as the everyday community language. There are also a great many Gaelscoileanna (Gaelic language schools) which are public schools all over the country. Not to mention Gaelic Universities and according to Ireland's 1996 census, 71,000 adults claimed to use the language everyday. While Irish is not the Celtic powerhouse that Welsh is today, it ain't dead yet.

Scot's Gaelic is in worse shape than Irish, but it isn't dead either. The last UK census showed that the number of Scot's Gaelic speakers had fallen to just below 59,000. It also has official status in the UK. The trouble there is the near total indifference of Scottish youth to their native language. Irish at least is enjoying a revival in Ireland with families re-adopting the language, sending their kids to Gaelscoileanna and moving into new Gaeltachts. Scot's Gaelic is also spoken by a small minority in Nova Scotia, but that is diminishing as well.

I think out of the two remaining Gaelic languages, Irish will last longer and has the best potential for coming back. The government is becoming more committed to its revival than ever and there is a growing Irish Gaelic media, with original TV, radio, newspapers, music, and Literature being produced. I think if Israel did it with Hebrew, Éire can do it with Gaeilge.

The reason I perceived Gaelic to be dead is that whilst on holiday in Wales I have heard Welsh spoken when out and about whereas I have never heard Gaelic spoken in Scotland or Ireland.

The reason I perceived Gaelic to be dead is that whilst on holiday in Wales I have heard Welsh spoken when out and about whereas I have never heard Gaelic spoken in Scotland or Ireland.


Well, there is no doubt at all that English is the main language in all these countries, and that Welsh is the most thriving celtic language of them all at this point. But as long as there is a community of speakers, it's not dead. Being of Gaelic descent (my dad's grandmother was the last speaker in our family) and having committed myself to learning my ancestors' language(s), this is a subject that is of grave importance to me. It's like getting punched when someone says it's "dead." It's terribly sad that you heard no one speaking it in Ireland. Of course, if you had visited one of the Gaeltachts, you would have. In places like Dublin, you can still find Irish speakers all over, but only if you're actively seeking them out. They don't come right out and start yapping in Gaelic at someone because the main language is English (unfortunately). There are even cafés in Dublin which are Gaelic-only. It's pretty cool. I think it's going to make a slow but sure return.

It's difficult though, especially with teens. Who wants to speak Irish when all your favourite celebs speak English? Know what I mean? It will take a lot of careful work, but I think Irish will get to a point where it is at least comparable to English in the Republic of Ireland, and hopefully one day, in Ulster as well.

Or maybe it won't. I mean, English is a great language too. It's the most important language on Earth at the momoent. Ireland will naturally have to maintain a bilingual policy to keep it's fervor in a global economy dominated by Anglo countries. The question is, if everyone speaks both Irish and English (hypothetically speaking) and the global economy demands English, who will opt to speak mostly Gaeilge? We'll see what happens.

What's "Conservative" in the UK, Andy?  About John Kerry position?


Niet, i would compare the Conservative Party to.. well Republicans who aren't in the pocket of Big Businnes (yet)


Yes.


No.

Although there are some Radical right wing elements of the Conservative Party (and labour party for that matter kiddo's) they aren't in any way linked with the BNP. In fact Michael Howard lambasted the BNP's blatent bigotry recently.

The BNP did have a major coup recently, when they got a Skih chap to advertise there position.. apparently they aren't nut job racists anymore.. oh right.. sure  ???

The BNP did have a major coup recently, when they got a Skih chap to advertise there position.. apparently they aren't nut job racists anymore.. oh right.. sure ???


I don't know, I've heard stories of BNP thugs jumping Asian youth in some Northern towns like Bradford.

To McD: As a Celtic brother, I sincerely hope that your language of Gaeilge is restored. It is beatiful, imo. Here in the U.S., lots of Irish people are trying to learn the language(just like you), so it appears there are not only hopes for a revival in Ireland, but perhaps in the Irish-American community too. My older half-brother, whom is Irish(his biological dad is), has been re-embracing his roots. His family, the Duncans, have lived in East Texas for several generations, they are Protestant, and pretty assimilated to the local Anglo-dominated culture.

However, he is trying, albeit slowly(he doesn't have  alot of free time and has to try and learn on his own without the help of anyone who actually speaks it), to learn Irish. He named his daughter Deire(from what I understand he took the name of Ireland in Irish and added a D at the beginning), and is now listening to Irish music. Hey, its a start.

As for me, and my Welshness, I've only recently been discovering my roots(as in the last few months). I really want to learn Welsh, but it is such a difficult language to an English speaker. I don't know anyone FROM Wales or who speaks it, and I can't find any classes in my area(Welsh is a pretty obscure language to learn anywhere in the U.S., so I don't know if I'll ever be able to take classes), and learning from the internet is near-impossible.

I wish I could get into Welsh music..but quite frankly, I've tried and I can't find any I like. You being Irish are pretty lucky. You guys have some SWEET tunes, we have what, those male choirs? :P Maybe I can find some Welsh music I like. You seem up on the Celtic stuff, so if you can provide me with any info, I'd be much abliged.

Oh..and I'm planning on getting a tattoo of the Welsh red dragon. :) 8)

I don't know, I've heard stories of BNP thugs jumping Asian youth in some Northern towns like Bradford.

To McD: As a Celtic brother, I sincerely hope that your language of Gaeilge is restored. It is beatiful, imo. Here in the U.S., lots of Irish people are trying to learn the language(just like you), so it appears there are not only hopes for a revival in Ireland, but perhaps in the Irish-American community too. My older half-brother, whom is Irish(his biological dad is), has been re-embracing his roots. His family, the Duncans, have lived in East Texas for several generations, they are Protestant, and pretty assimilated to the local Anglo-dominated culture.

However, he is trying, albeit slowly(he doesn't have  alot of free time and has to try and learn on his own without the help of anyone who actually speaks it), to learn Irish. He named his daughter Deire(from what I understand he took the name of Ireland in Irish and added a D at the beginning), and is now listening to Irish music. Hey, its a start.

As for me, and my Welshness, I've only recently been discovering my roots(as in the last few months). I really want to learn Welsh, but it is such a difficult language to an English speaker. I don't know anyone FROM Wales or who speaks it, and I can't find any classes in my area(Welsh is a pretty obscure language to learn anywhere in the U.S., so I don't know if I'll ever be able to take classes), and learning from the internet is near-impossible.

I wish I could get into Welsh music..but quite frankly, I've tried and I can't find any I like. You being Irish are pretty lucky. You guys have some SWEET tunes, we have what, those male choirs? :P Maybe I can find some Welsh music I like. You seem up on the Celtic stuff, so if you can provide me with any info, I'd be much abliged.

Oh..and I'm planning on getting a tattoo of the Welsh red dragon. :) 8)


If you actually want to listen to some Irish Music.. without listening to 'irish music' listen to Dropkick Murpheys. They are actually from Boston..but.. well that says it all really dosen't it.

I saw them a few weeks ago, fantastic.

Also..people people.. Thursaday, i expexct no soberness.. ok.. YOU HEAR ME!

No, I like tradtional Irish music Andy. I really do..

Unfortunately, traditional Welsh music seems to be just the silly male choir. I mean, at least the Irish have folksinging and stuff..

No, I like tradtional Irish music Andy. I really do..

Unfortunately, traditional Welsh music seems to be just the silly male choir. I mean, at least the Irish have folksinging and stuff..


Allid Jones dosen't.. toot your horn then?

I don't mind a lot of Traditional Irish Music.

Of course, a lot of the Drinking songs have become traditional. Whiskey in the jar anybody  ;)

Allid Jones dosen't.. toot your horn then?

I don't mind a lot of Traditional Irish Music.

Of course, a lot of the Drinking songs have become traditional. Whiskey in the jar anybody ;)


I LOOOOOOOOOVE Whiskey in the jar. It is one of my all time favorite songs(I have the Grateful Dead version of it).

Never heard of Allid Jones..

The drinking songs do rock.

Do you know anything about Welsh music?

I LOOOOOOOOOVE Whiskey in the jar. It is one of my all time favorite songs(I have the Grateful Dead version of it).

Never heard of Allid Jones..

The drinking songs do rock.

Do you know anything about Welsh music?


Whiskey In The Jar... Peter Paul & Mary right?

I LOOOOOOOOOVE Whiskey in the jar. It is one of my all time favorite songs(I have the Grateful Dead version of it).

Never heard of Allid Jones..

The drinking songs do rock.

Do you know anything about Welsh music?


I'm sure there are some good welsh ones. let me have a look, if anybody sings them it will be the football or rugby fans.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/scrumv/fun/songs/list.shtml

HA!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/scrumv/fun/songs/irish.shtml

Ireland soooo wins.. I love Athenry! I know it by heart.

Yeah, I will admit it. The Irish clearly beat us in the music department. The Stereophonics?...eh.

But from everything I've read(I'm no football buff), Wales has a history of kicking butt at Football. :P

Yeah, I will admit it. The Irish clearly beat us in the music department. The Stereophonics?...eh.

But from everything I've read(I'm no football buff), Wales has a history of kicking butt at Football. :P


Eeeeerr..no.. The welsh well.. in my lifetime and for a while before that, actually for just about ever.. have sucked. England are the team of the British Isles. Ireland are second and always really have been. The Scots occasionally find some good players, but not often.

Stereophonics aren't bad actually.. do you have an instant messenger program, i have some songs on my computer you may enjoy.

Eeeeerr..no.. The welsh well.. in my lifetime and for a while before that, actually for just about ever.. have sucked. England are the team of the British Isles. Ireland are second and always really have been. The Scots occasionally find some good players, but not often.

Stereophonics aren't bad actually.. do you have an instant messenger program, i have some songs on my computer you may enjoy.


Well, thats odd. On some Welsh website they had a list of the 100 greatest Welshman/women in history, and several of them were football players. *shrugs*

I have AIM and MSN.

Which do you prefer?

Well, thats odd. On some Welsh website they had a list of the 100 greatest Welshman/women in history, and several of them were football players. *shrugs*

I have AIM and MSN.

Which do you prefer?


I bloody hate AIM, add me to your MSN Account.

I LOOOOOOOOOVE Whiskey in the jar. It is one of my all time favorite songs(I have the Grateful Dead version of it).

Never heard of Allid Jones..

The drinking songs do rock.

Do you know anything about Welsh music?

I love the Pogues version of "Whiskey in a Jar" (aka "Whiskey in the Jar")
I myself know very little about Welsh music.  I can distinguish Irish music from Scottish music, but I might be a little lost on Welsh!

I love the Pogues version of "Whiskey in a Jar" (aka "Whiskey in the Jar")
I myself know very little about Welsh music.  I can distinguish Irish music from Scottish music, but I might be a little lost on Welsh!


Max, if you can tell Scottish from Irish, i'm sure you could figure out Welsh.

Of course, the Metallica Version of Whiskey In The Jar, far surpasses all others  ;D

If ya want some great welsh music visit my labels websites www.ffvinyl.com and www.probation-records.com. Massive plug aside there are bands like :

The Manic Street Preachers
Stereophonics
Super Furry Animals
Goldie Looking Chain
Mclusky
Catatonia (now split up)
60ft Dolls
Funeral for a Friend
Lost Prophets
Bullet for My Valentine
Motorhead (1/3 welsh anyway)
Budgie (1970s)
Man (1970s)
Its not all close harmony singing by men in miners helmets :)

Thanks for the list, Martin. Man, "Guns Don't Kill People(Rappers Do)" and "Sexy Ladies" by Goldie Looking Chain are two of the funniest/awesome songs I've ever head.

I've never heard of Budgie before, but as a classic rock fan, I LOVE their sound.

I was talking about this topic in the pub last night.  We came to the conclusion that the reason you rarely hear anyone claiming to be a British-American is because the regional differences are pronounced so you will either claim to be Irish-American or Scottish-American.  However most English people will either say they are British or will then say which county they are from (some more than others) and rarely mention being English.  So if you asked my friends where they are from they'll both tell you they're Yorkshireman.

I think Karen speaks wisdom on this matter. In the UK, while we are all British I guess, we usually identify ourselves as Taffys, Paddies, Jocks, Scousers, Cockneys, Scalllys, Yorkshiremen (sorry ladies, you don't get mentioned in that neck of the wood either!), and a thousand other regional variations for what is, after all, a tiny country with a lot of different cultures.

This only gets exacerbated when you go to another country. I can assure you I will be very welsh in Texas tomorrow :)) as we can identify with a state that doesn't wholly want to be part of the union. Vive la revolucion - unless there's something good on telly that is :p

Of course, a lot of the Drinking songs have become traditional. Whiskey in the jar anybody  ;)


Good song, Andy. As is 'Black velvet band','Dear old Donegal' and 'McNamara's Band'.

As for the topic, I don't know.  ;D

Unfortunately, traditional Welsh music seems to be just the silly male choir.


Hey, no knocking the boyos in the choir...when they're in full flight, it's one of the finest sounds you'll ever hear...

Years ago, I remember a Welsh programme that used to be shown on English TV, called 'Disc A Dawn'...which was basically cheesy 70s songs sung in Welsh...!! Bizarrely enjoyable...

I'm no Paddy (so I won't be partaking on Thursday), but The Dubliners are a fine band to 'get you in the mood'...

Good song, Andy. As is 'Black velvet band','Dear old Donegal' and 'McNamara's Band'.

As for the topic, I don't know.  ;D


Ha - McNamara's Band is my husband's favourite song.  He even sung it at our wedding.  :D  He's taught it to the kids too so the tradition will go on ...

I LOOOOOOOOOVE Whiskey in the jar. It is one of my all time favorite songs(I have the Grateful Dead version of it).

Never heard of Allid Jones..

The drinking songs do rock.

Do you know anything about Welsh music?


For the best drinking songs, icluding Whiskey in the Jar and some other goodies (like The Rocky Road to Dublin) you have to go to the originals: The Dubliners! Get their greatest hits, it's worth it.

I love Irish Folk music. Check out a band called Danu, they're excellent.

And if you want a kick-ass place to learn Welsh in the US, go to the BBC site that was quoted earlier... it is excellent. They have one for Scottish and Irish too, but the Irish one is pathetic. Their Welsh programme is complete. Go for it.

For the best drinking songs, icluding Whiskey in the Jar and some other goodies (like The Rocky Road to Dublin) you have to go to the originals: The Dubliners! Get their greatest hits, it's worth it.

I love Irish Folk music. Check out a band called Danu, they're excellent.

And if you want a kick-a** place to learn Welsh in the US, go to the BBC site that was quoted earlier... it is excellent. They have one for Scottish and Irish too, but the Irish one is pathetic. Their Welsh programme is complete. Go for it.


Ok, I will try BBC's program. Although..I'm still pretty skeptical about learning online.

The best Irish drinking song I've heard so far is "The Moonshiner" by the Clancy Brothers and the Dubliners. That is my theme song. ;D

And if you want a kick-a** place to learn Welsh in the US, go to the BBC site that was quoted earlier... it is excellent. They have one for Scottish and Irish too, but the Irish one is pathetic. Their Welsh programme is complete. Go for it.


After reviewing, I have come to a conclusion: The BBC Welsh programme SUCKS. I'm sorry to say this but I don't see it's value. Its inadequate in teaching you how to read Welsh, it relies too heavily on audio files and media, and its very jumbled and un-organized. What ever happened to structured lessons? This is a mess and I have no idea where to start. Instead of having all of these little sections like "Catchphrases" and "Welsh In The Workplace", why not just have lessons 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc. ?

My opinion is that this "programme" is geared towards Welshman whom already have at least a LITTLE background in the language(reading it is easy for them).

Now HERE is an example of a MARVELOUS and effective language program(I'm sure you have used it yourself): http://www.inac.org/irishlanguage/lessons/1

You have to register to use it but its free. It contains 128 lessons total. And the program is one of the effective and best I've seen for introducing someone with no background in it at all to a language.

"Study Method

  1. Learn the pronunciation guide system and do the practice work for English words that we will give you.

  2. For each Irish word, phrase, or sentence, first look at the pronunciation guide (which will always be in parentheses) and say the word or words several times out loud. Then look at the Irish word and pronounce it several more times. After you have gone over the lesson in this way, write the Irish words, copying them from the lesson and saying them out loud as you copy them.

  3. Each time you say an Irish word or phrase, try to form a picture in your mind of the meaning. Although this is difficult with some single words, persist and it will become easier as the phrases and sentences become longer.

  4. Translation is the next step. Read the Irish word or phrase out loud and then translate it into English. Do this several times, until you are sure that you know it. Then translate the English into Irish several times. If you are learning Irish with others, each person can give another a word or phrase to translate and can take a part in the conversation in the lessons.

  5. In the conversation exercises, look first at the pronunciation and meaning, then look up from the lesson before you say the Irish words out loud. Work phrase by phrase at first, until you can memorize entire sentences. If you study with others, take turns in reading what each character says.

      In the conversation exercises, you will see words and phrases that will seem difficult at first. Memorize them and don't worry about the grammar. It will be explained later.

Pronunciation guide system
Most of the symbols are letters and letter groups for sounds common in familiar English words. If you pronounce them in that way for the first few lessons, you will be close enough for a beginning. We will gradually correct you and improve your pronunciation as you advance, so that you will soon have a genuine Irish pronunciation.

For most consonants, such as b, d, f, g, h, l, m, n, p, r, s, and t we will use the letters themselves as pronunciation symbols. In the lessons you will get instructions on how to pronounce these sounds in the Irish way. Nearly all these consonants have two sounds in Irish, depending on what vowels are next to them. (English "c" and "g" also have this characteristic. Notice how you start to pronounce "king" and "coat", and then "give" and "go".)

The vowel symbols may need some explanation, so here are the symbols and description of their pronunciation:

Symbols and pronunciation
(ah) as in English "ah-hah".
(a) as in English "at".
(aw*) as in English "tot". but held for a longer time
(ay*) as Irish pronounce English "say" without a trace of (ee) as in English "mean".
(i) as in English "pin".
(eye) as in English "eye".
(oh) as in English "toe", but without the trace of (oo) sound at the end as in English "food".
(oo) as in English "food".
(u) as in English "put".
(uh) as in English "but".
(ou) as in English "shout"

We will capitalize the letters in the accented part of the word or phrase. We will use asterisks, as in some symbols above, to indicate a sound fairly different from usual English sounds. Remember, too, that many Irish sounds are not exactly like their English counterparts. Some English sounds, such as "z" and "th" are not in Irish.

Now try these English words as practice in using the pronunciation guide system:

(boht) (HAM-muhr) (kin) (KUH-stuhm-ayr-ee) (de-LIV-uh-ree) (giv) (trans-LAYT) (ad-MEYE-uhr) (ful-FIL) (fuhn-duh-MENT-uhl) (wohnt) (wawnt) (tawt).

The actual English words for these are:

boat, hammer, kin, customary, delivery, give, translate, admire, fulfill, fundamental, won't, want, taught. These sounds are not always exact, as you can see, but are close enough to be understood. With these important preliminaries taken care of, you will make your entry into Irish next week."

This is much, much more effective than the BBC Welsh Programme, and it gives me less of a headache. ;D

This is of course for Gaelic. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find a program NEAR as good for Welsh online. I looked on Plaid Cymru's website, you would think they'd have lessons or at least links to cultural sites that do-nope. I looked up Wikipedia's page on Welsh, they don't have any lessons nor in did their links section on the page include lessons. It must not be a very high in demand language.

After reviewing, I have come to a conclusion: The BBC Welsh programme SUCKS. I'm sorry to say this but I don't see it's value. Its inadequate in teaching you how to read Welsh, it relies too heavily on audio files and media, and its very jumbled and un-organized. What ever happened to structured lessons? This is a mess and I have no idea where to start. Instead of having all of these little sections like "Catchphrases" and "Welsh In The Workplace", why not just have lessons 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc. ?

My opinion is that this "programme" is geared towards Welshman whom already have at least a LITTLE background in the language(reading it is easy for them).

Now HERE is an example of a MARVELOUS and effective language program(I'm sure you have used it yourself): http://www.inac.org/irishlanguage/lessons/1

You have to register to use it but its free. It contains 128 lessons total. And the program is one of the effective and best I've seen for introducing someone with no background in it at all to a language.


Yeah, When I first started learning Irish, these were the lessons I used. There is one problem with them though, they combine several words into one when they shouldn't. Example, the sentence "He is Irish" in correct Irish would be "Is Éireannach é," while these lessons would quote "Is Eireannaché" combining the two words. This is not how things are done in Irish. There are other examples where they combine several words to make one sentence. A total beginner to Irish would have trouble recognising this. A better site (though less comprehensive) which has both Irish and Scottish tutorials is http://www.contemporarypoetry.com/brain/lang/.

As far as online learning is concerned, the BBC site is the most comprehensive I'm afraid. They offer a lot of resources to the learner like a spell checker, mutation checker, dictionary, grammar guide, and of course lessons in all levels. The beginning Catphrase lessons go slowly, I know, but if you stick with them, you can follow the lessons all the way to the advanced levels. Who knows? There are also some book/tape sets to buy and software as well (Teach Me! Welsh).

BTW, inac.org is the website of the Irish Northern Aid Committee who are an American organisation which supports the IRA (possibly financially, I'm not sure). You make your own judgements, I just wanted to let you know. I have a membership to their site, but I haven't donated or participated in anything other than the Irish lessons. They claim to support political prisoners, former political prisoner, and the families of those who were killed as a result of the struggle. They also claim to support several charities, and this is where I begin to question what kind of charity, if you know what I mean.

Yeah, When I first started learning Irish, these were the lessons I used. There is one problem with them though, they combine several words into one when they shouldn't. Example, the sentence "He is Irish" in correct Irish would be "Is Éireannach é," while these lessons would quote "Is Eireannaché" combining the two words. This is not how things are done in Irish. There are other examples where they combine several words to make one sentence. A total beginner to Irish would have trouble recognising this. A better site (though less comprehensive) which has both Irish and Scottish tutorials is http://www.contemporarypoetry.com/brain/lang/.

As far as online learning is concerned, the BBC site is the most comprehensive I'm afraid. They offer a lot of resources to the learner like a spell checker, mutation checker, dictionary, grammar guide, and of course lessons in all levels. The beginning Catphrase lessons go slowly, I know, but if you stick with them, you can follow the lessons all the way to the advanced levels. Who knows? There are also some book/tape sets to buy and software as well (Teach Me! Welsh).

BTW, inac.org is the website of the Irish Northern Aid Committee who are an American organisation which supports the IRA (possibly financially, I'm not sure). You make your own judgements, I just wanted to let you know. I have a membership to their site, but I haven't donated or participated in anything other than the Irish lessons. They claim to support political prisoners, former political prisoner, and the families of those who were killed as a result of the struggle. They also claim to support several charities, and this is where I begin to question what kind of charity, if you know what I mean.


No big deal here, I am pro-Republican/united Ireland all the way. ;)

Anyway, I just find the way BBC has it laid out CONFUSING. I don't think it will be of much help.

No big deal here, I am pro-Republican/united Ireland all the way. ;)


Same. I've also looked more into it. The Irish Northern Aid Committee is also known as Noraid, a name that is infamous in Britain for being an organistion which raises funds here in the USA for the IRA. They obviously haven't been able to prove it, otherwise our terror-frenzied government would be all over Noraid like white on rice. However, the British government has appealed directly to the Bush administration for a "Noraid Crackdown" but to no avail. Though I'm sure INAC is being watched very closely, there has been no legal action ever taken against them. They claim to be a charity/humanitarian organisation, and they may be completely legit. The heat has never been put on them. That may soon change. This St. Patrick's Day, the family of the man who was murdered in Belfast (the McCartney sisters) will be visiting the White House to speak with the president. If you read the newslinks in my post about the recent troubles in Ulster, you'll be well informed of all that's been going on. The heat may soon be on Noraid if the president decides to start paying attention to the IRA. Personally, I think the Brits are perfectly capable of taking care of their own domestic problems.

I'm familiar with the situation(Ironically I am part Ulster, but not a drop of Irisih in me..but when you are right, you're right, I suport the republicans).

Its all such a croc. The way they are trying to ban that party..I mean has it ever been proven to be a front for the IRA? From what I can tell a lot of that is hearsay and hyperbole. And what the IRA did was right. Why in the heck should they trust the Northern Irish government to properly give out justice to the perpetrators? Let us not forget that the IRA has been fighting AGAINST this system for decades. Why trust it now to give some of their own a fair hand at justice?

They may have made a mistake in the way they worded their statement..perhaps they should have just went ahead and taken care of it, and THEN issued the statement post-execution(if they feel that was absolutely what they HAD to do). But everyone has their panties in a twist over it. The BBC REALLY ticked me off with this. In the comments/feedback section for the story, 98% of the feedback they posted was rabidly anti-IRA.

I mean, God forbid that the IRA unjustly try, convict, and execute someone. Who do they think they are, the British government?

I'm familiar with the situation(Ironically I am part Ulster, but not a drop of Irisih in me..but when you are right, you're right, I suport the republicans).

Its all such a croc. The way they are trying to ban that party..I mean has it ever been proven to be a front for the IRA? From what I can tell a lot of that is hearsay and hyperbole. And what the IRA did was right. Why in the heck should they trust the Northern Irish government to properly give out justice to the perpetrators? Let us not forget that the IRA has been fighting AGAINST this system for decades. Why trust it now to give some of their own a fair hand at justice?

They may have made a mistake in the way they worded their statement..perhaps they should have just went ahead and taken care of it, and THEN issued the statement post-execution(if they feel that was absolutely what they HAD to do). But everyone has their panties in a twist over it. The BBC REALLY ticked me off with this. In the comments/feedback section for the story, 98% of the feedback they posted was rabidly anti-IRA.

I mean, God forbid that the IRA unjustly try, convict, and execute someone. Who do they think they are, the British government?


Thank you. This is exactly what I posted at the BBC... Unfortunately, they review all the posts before they are posted, so whether or not mine will make it through in one piece remains to be seen.

Thank you. This is exactly what I posted at the BBC... Unfortunately, they review all the posts before they are posted, so whether or not mine will make it through in one piece remains to be seen.


I know. I sent in a little rant against school uniforms(in response to the article about that Muslim girl winning a court case allowing her to wear a traditional Muslim women's dress called a jilbab rather than the school-approved uniform), and it was never posted. I guess they didn't like a yank trashing anything about the English school system. I mean, I like the BBC, moreso than any American news sources, but they still clearly have their biases.

I know. I sent in a little rant against school uniforms(in response to the article about that Muslim girl winning a court case allowing her to wear a traditional Muslim women's dress called a jilbab rather than the school-approved uniform), and it was never posted. I guess they didn't like a yank trashing anything about the English school system. I mean, I like the BBC, moreso than any American news sources, but they still clearly have their biases.


Muise! (Indeed!)

Muise! (Indeed!)


Ie(yes)!

Thats Welsh. ;)

N. Ireland is a real.. flash point.. in our house. My father was in the Army and went to Northern Ireland, where he was shot at, as were many other Soldiers.

He always talks about how they should all be shot..etc.etc.etc Anywho, i support there cause (although not there methods) we have no right to be there.

Let me make the most basic of arguments. If Canadian troops marched in to your town and said right then, our of your houses you lot, we're taking over. Would you fight?

N. Ireland is a real.. flash point.. in our house. My father was in the Army and went to Northern Ireland, where he was shot at, as were many other Soldiers.

He always talks about how they should all be shot..etc.etc.etc Anywho, i support there cause (although not there methods) we have no right to be there.

Let me make the most basic of arguments. If Canadian troops marched in to your town and said right then, our of your houses you lot, we're taking over. Would you fight?


That's a difficult question. I'm a dual citizen of Canada and the US, so I guess it would come down to a choice of who was in the right of the fight. If it were any other country, I'd tell them to f*ck off and I would grab a weapon and try to get the hell out of dodge. I feel for the Unionists, but I can't agree with them. No part of Ireland belongs to the British. Unionists act like if they were to join the Republic, they would face discrimination and opression, but that's simply not true. There are people of all religions and backgrounds leading wonderful and free lives in the Republic of Ireland. The Unionists just don't want to be separated from the British crown, so if they feel that strongly about it, I think they should move to Scotland or England. But they say "no, we're Irish." And if you're so bloody Irish then why do you have such a problem living in a free Irish republic?

...we have no right to be there.

Human history is an unending sequence of invasions, migrations and subjugations. It's not "right", it's just the way it is.
What we're left with is a complex mixture of ethnicity and cultures that is impossible to unravel.

If you take the position "we have no right to be there" then by extrapolation you could claim that all immigrant populations into North America over the last 400 years or so have no "right" to be there either.

Human history is an unending sequence of invasions, migrations and subjugations. It's not "right", it's just the way it is.
What we're left with is a complex mixture of ethnicity and cultures that is impossible to unravel.

If you take the position "we have no right to be there" then by extrapolation you could claim that all immigrant populations into North America over the last 400 years or so have no "right" to be there either.


Well if were going to go that far.. everyone really should have stayed in Africa ;)

The British Government has no right to say what goes in Northern Ireland, would be a better way i could have put it.

Well if were going to go that far.. everyone really should have stayed in Africa ;)

Exactly my point, we are where we are and it's impossible to unravel.


The British Government has no right to say what goes in Northern Ireland, would be a better way i could have put it.

Why not?
A significant proportion of citizens of Northern Ireland (don't know if it's actually a majority any more) vote for political parties that wish to remain part of the British government. The fact is that the population of Northern Ireland is irrevocably split on this issue and I can't see any peace process sorting this out.

A significant proportion of citizens of Northern Ireland (don't know if it's actually a majority any more) vote for political parties that wish to remain part of the British government. The fact is that the population of Northern Ireland is irrevocably split on this issue and I can't see any peace process sorting this out.


No Peace process will sort it out, that's right. The whole issue is fecked up beyond recognition. Eventually N.Ireland will end up as a sovereign nation, that is about the only solution i can see that a majority of people would agree to disagree on.

Too much blood has been spilled and too many lives have been lost for both sides to simply say.. 'Ok then, guess we were both right'

Peaceful coexistence is the best we can hope and strive for.
I really don't see any realistic prospect of a united Ireland in the foreseeable future.

However I'd be interested to hear the well thought out plans of how such a thing could be peacefully effected, from anyone who advocates it.

Come to think of it, I'm assuming that a united Ireland still a central tenet of Sinn Fein's agenda?
If so, how does Sinn Fein propose that it will happen? And how are Sinn Fein approaching this topic in the peace process negotiations?

Ha - McNamara's Band is my husband's favourite song.  He even sung it at our wedding.  :D  He's taught it to the kids too so the tradition will go on ...


Ah I see. I love that song! It's so catchy. Tell your husband he is passing on a worthy tradition.  ;)

Why not?
A significant proportion of citizens of Northern Ireland (don't know if it's actually a majority any more) vote for political parties that wish to remain part of the British government. The fact is that the population of Northern Ireland is irrevocably split on this issue and I can't see any peace process sorting this out.


It just happens to be a 'series of unfortunate events' during the original rebellion and struggle for home rule which led to the Irish Free State and eventually the Republic of Ireland (Poblacht Na hÉireann) that allowed for the partitioning of the island in the first place. After WW1, the Irish home rule movement was occurring. The majority of Irishmen wanted this. The Protestants were a small minority in Ireland who were loyal to the Crown, lucky for them they were concentrated in Ulster. So when home rule was approved in 1921, Ireland was partitioned as stated in the bill proposed by an Englishman, David Lloyd George. The British Parliament thought that if Protestants were in the minority in Ireland, they would go ahead and make two Irelands (since they could do whatever they wanted with the Irish, without reproach). This was a preventative measure because the Brits knew that as soon as the Irish achieved home rule, they would commence votes for independence. Separating Ulster from the rest of the country (despite the Catholics who also lived there and despite the wishes of the majority of Irish people) was a way to ensure that they would continue to have a political and military presence on the Island of Ireland. So when the Irish Free State was created one year after home rule was achieved, it came to no surprise that the Northern Irish authorities (who were Protestant Unionists) declined inclusion.

It is the view of most Irish people today (including those in the Republic, the UK, and in the diaspora) that Ireland should never have been partitioned in the first place. That foreign oppressors had no right to break up their island without their say. The partitioning of Ireland happened at the behest of a majority of British people, NOT the majority of Irish people. Therefore, in the eyes of Northern Republicans, it doesn't matter that Unionists hold a slight majority... the Nationalists still have an interminable right to live free of British rule in their own country. That country is Ireland (Munster, Leinster, Connacht, AND Ulster), not 'The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.'

McDonald, I don't dispute any of your exposition of Irish history.
However, you haven't put forward any plan of action as to what you believe should happen next to reach the goal you desire.
That's what I'd be interested to hear.

By the way, David Lloyd George was Welsh.

McDonald, I don't dispute any of your exposition of Irish history.
However, you haven't put forward any plan of action as to what you believe should happen next to reach the goal you desire.
That's what I'd be interested to hear.

By the way, David Lloyd George was Welsh.


That's true, although technically he was born in Manchester. Nevertheless, he was British and, IMHO, being a Welshman doesn't exactly qualify someone to carve up other people's countries. In any case, these are only minor, inconsequential details.

As for personally coming up with a plan of action... I wasn't aware that that was what you were asking for in the particular comment I was responding to. I was answering your "why not" question by telling you "why not."

However, re: a plan... I can't say that I have been able to find a solution that would please both sides. All I have been able to do thus far is try and decide for myself who is right. Granted, as I am of Irish descent, I have a bias. Like most descendants of Irish immigrants all over the British/Celtic diaspora, it is my personal ambition to see a united, free Ireland in my own lifetime. I can't quite explain why Irish diasporans have such a strong emotional connection to the "motherland" but it is something quite akin to the way a Jewish-American hopes for a strong, peaceful Israel. Can you blame a Jew for siding with the Israelies in their conflict? I couldn't.

History is on the side of the Nationalists, but reality serves neither side in this conflict. A plan of action could be to sit and wait around until the Catholics in Northern Ireland have had enough population growth to outnumber in the Unionists in votes, eventually voting NI out of the UK, and into the Republic. However, there's no guaruntee that once that occurs, there won't be Protestant paramilitarism for the Republic to deal with much the same way the UK has had to deal with the IRA.

Long story short... there might be no solution. The nationalists want re-unification, the unionists want to stay in the UK, yet remain in Ireland at the same time. The only solution might be for all the hardcore Unionists to go elsewhere in the UK if it's the UK they hold so dear, and allow those loyal to Ireland to have the whole of their island back (these people outnumbering Unionists by several million on the Island of Ireland). Or it could be that the Unionists wake up and see what a diverse, cosmopolitan, free, and indiscriminate society exists in the Republic of Ireland today, and that there is no reason to fear oppression in such a country. What is it the Unionist are afraid of exactly... if it's discrimination, all they need do is look at the Republic... if it's just not being under the rule of the United Kingdom, then they have a selection of other places to go.

Some people have suggested an independent nation of Northern Ireland... but that won't solve anything. It's a decent "compromise" because neither side gets what they want... but in the end it may just lead to more violence.

I was answering your "why not" question by telling you "why not."

Fair enough, although I did pose the question about the means to achieve a united Ireland in my post after the one asking "Why not?".

As for personally coming up with a plan of action....

Does Sinn Fein have a plan of action for a united Ireland, and if so what is it?
I'm asking out of genuine interest as I've never heard a plan described and I certainly can't come up with one either.
If they don't have a plan, what is the point of espousing the cause, other than out of sentimental attachment to the past?

Long story short... there might be no solution

I agree.
Referring back to my earlier statement "peaceful coesistence is the best we can hope and strive for", in which case Sinn Fein might as well give up the pipe dream of a united Ireland.

That's true, although technically he was born in Manchester. Nevertheless, he was British and, IMHO, being a Welshman doesn't exactly qualify someone to carve up other people's countries. In any case, these are only minor, inconsequential details.

I don't agree that this point is minor or inconsequential.

Many Welsh nationalists empathise with the Irish nationalist cause given the history of English invasion and subjugation of Wales.
I'm not saying that Lloyd George was a Welsh nationalist but you labelled him an Englishman and I think he would have been unhappy with that label in the context that you applied it.

Nobody is qualified to carve up other people's countries but it's been going on for millennia. Your ancestors did it in North America just as mine did it in Wales, Scotland and Ireland, OK all over the World if you consider the extent of the British Empire. Fact remains that what's done is done, there is no going back.

Nobody is qualified to carve up other people's countries but it's been going on for millennia. Your ancestors did it in North America just as mine did it in Wales, Scotland and Ireland, OK all over the World if you consider the extent of the British Empire. Fact remains that what's done is done, there is no going back.


You're correct, there is no changing the past, but we can heal some wounds. But just on a personal note, none of my ancestors did any carving, we were the ones being carved. I'm only a first generation American. My dad is an Irish/Scottish-Canadian. His grandmother spoke Gaelic.

I'm only a first generation American. My dad is an Irish/Scottish-Canadian. His grandmother spoke Gaelic.

So it's OK to settle in your non-native country a couple of hundred years AFTER somebody else has invaded and subjugated the native population?

So it's OK to settle in your non-native country a couple of hundred years AFTER somebody else has invaded and subjugated the native population?


Well, if you're starving then I say "yes!" And in many cases, people didn't leave of their own free will, they were sent by the state. I can think of one incident when the British crown sent thousands of Irish people to Québec just because they thought if the French-speaking Québécois were surrounded by people who already had English law and custom beat into them, then it would be easier to control them. Unfortunately, thanks to the famine, about 6000 of them died of Cholera when they got there, and they took a lot of Quebeckers with them.

I believe the point you were trying to make is that what's done is done. I agreed with that. Here I am in North America, speaking English... nothing's going to change that.

McDonald, I'd half completed a response to your last post when I realised that we're not really getting anywhere with this debate.
The discussion is following a similar pattern to the ones I have with my many friends in the Irish community here in England, i.e. reaching no conclusion.

For what it's worth, I am English and was brought up in the Anglican church, although I'm now an atheist. My wife is a Roman Catholic of Irish descent (3 out of 4 of her grandparents were born in Ireland and moved to England in the early part of the 20th century). Our children all attend a Roman Catholic school where there is a prevalent community of Irish families, many of whom think of themselves as Irish rather than English even though they were technically born in England. Some parents are Irish citizens who happen to be living and working in England at the moment.

I count many of these people as my friends. I sympathise with the injustices suffered by the Irish at the hands of the British over the centuries, although I refuse to apologise for them. However my belief is that whatever those injustices, a unified Ireland cannot be achieved without more injustice and potentially more violence. Can we leave it at that for now?

I wish I could get into Welsh music..but quite frankly, I've tried and I can't find any I like. You being Irish are pretty lucky. You guys have some SWEET tunes, we have what, those male choirs? :P Maybe I can find some Welsh music I like. You seem up on the Celtic stuff, so if you can provide me with any info, I'd be much abliged.

Oh..and I'm planning on getting a tattoo of the Welsh red dragon. :) 8)

Cool! Someone else has listed most of the major Welsh bands, but there's also Feeder, Tom Jones (!), and the lesser-known Gorky's Zygotic Myncis. I went to junior school with 2 members of the Myncis, they do about half their songs in Welsh language. Their album "Barafundle" is named after the beach behind my childhood village, but I'm not sure it can be described as easy listening!

I grew up in west Wales myself. My mother is Welsh, I also have those dark, latin looks & skin, that others have mentioned here (I always thought it was 'cos of the Spanish milkman myself, but my mother denies everything! ;D). I can speak Welsh a bit, but despite learning it for 8 years solid in school (we even had a special instructor to show how to position your mouth for the various sounds!), I still can't hold a full conversation with someone who speaks Welsh as a first language. Where Welsh is spoken, it's generally very heavily dialected, plus Welsh people tend to speak quite quickly & leave the ends off words, so it's hard to understand, unless it's written down. I'm afraid I don't have any advice as to where to learn Welsh- like I said, It's a pretty hard language to learn even at an hour a day for 8 years, so good luck! There is definitely a strong Welsh Language movement in Wales at the moment, but I'm quite surprised Plaid Cymru haven't got any links on their site (that being said, that's fairly typical of the standard of organisation in Welsh politics). Perhaps Meibion Glyndwr can help?  ;D

Other people have better answers than I on the topic question. As far as our countries' organisation goes, The British Isles include Great Britain, Ireland, Isle of Man, Isle of Wight, & some Scottish Islands. Guernsey, Jersey, & Alderney are known as the Channel Islands. Great Britain is the major island of the group, comprised of England, Scotland & Wales. The United Kingdom consists of England, Scotland, Wales & the 6 counties that comprise Northern Ireland, all of whom use the British Pound as their monetary currency, although with some regional variations (Scotland & Norn Iron have their own banknotes). The Channel Islands also use the Pound, but I'm unsure if they're classed as part of the UK or not. The Republic of Ireland is considered a seperate country, and uses the Euro as their currency. I consider anyone from Great Britain to be British, anyone from Ireland (Northern or Southern) to be Irish, but that's just me...

I'd just like to add that everyone in the UK must have heard about Wales' magnificent victory in the 6 Nations rugby tournament, bloody good show, that. I grew up in the era when Wales last won the Grand Slam, my dad even had a number of commemorative items around the house such as mirrors, mugs etc. To many of the Welsh, rugby epitomises the spirit of the nation, it is truly more than just a game; spirits will be lifted for some time to come, which is a good thing, as recently the Welsh seem to be suffering from some sort of inferiority complex.

Just a few random Welsh phrases to finish off (may not be quite correct, but pretty close!)

Cymru am byth- Wales forever.

Sut rydych chi'n heddw- how are you today?

Da iawn, diolch- very well, thank you.

Rydwy'n hoffi Cymraeg- I like the Welsh

Maen gas gyda fi Saesneg- I hate the English!

And finally, prynhawn dda (sp?)- good afternoon!

McDonald, I'd half completed a response to your last post when I realised that we're not really getting anywhere with this debate.

I didn't realise that we were debating. I thought we were just talking. If it was a debate you were looking for, I can tell you that I've had all the debating I can handle elsewhere on these boards over the past few months. If ever I felt a sense of a debate coming between us in this coversation, I tried to squash it by saying things like "you're correct" and "I agree." I was telling the truth too, I did agree.


The discussion is following a similar pattern to the ones I have with my many friends in the Irish community here in England, i.e. reaching no conclusion. I'm sorry about that. It's just one of those things. It's like abortion or gay marriage... people have their own valid reasons and they just won't mesh sometimes with the valid, yet different reasoning of others.


I sympathise with the injustices suffered by the Irish at the hands of the British over the centuries, although I refuse to apologise for them. However my belief is that whatever those injustices, a unified Ireland cannot be achieved without more injustice and potentially more violence. Can we leave it at that for now?


\\--The following statements might seem a little harsh, but please don't take them that way, I'm only being honest. Friends are honest with each other...--\\

I tried to "leave it at that" more than once. I can't help but feel like I'm being blamed for dragging this conversation out. For the record, I did try to bring it to somewhat of an end by agreeing with you that what's done is done.

Admittedly, I was being a little contentious, you might say, by correcting your assumption that my ancestors carved up North America. I probably should have let that one slide. But honestly, for all you knew at the time, I could have stepped off the boat just yesterday. My folks were not some yankee doodle pipe-smokers who shot Indians for sport, and in fact, you'll find I share that in common with a sizable bunch of Americans (not to mention Canadians).

You asked why the British shouldn't be occupying Ireland, and I gave you my answer, and I honestly wish it would have ended there. It was never my intention to be included in a debate, or mock peace talks.

I hope this won't deter you from engaging in other conversations with me. I'm really a nice guy with a lot to say, and I get the feeling that you are as well. Things just went sort of belly up this time, that's all. Miscommunications and misunderstandings.

I think we were debating, in that you'd expressed support for reunification whereas I took the opposing position of saying that this was not a desirbable proposition. That was the heart of the debate, I felt.

As far as knowing your personal lineage, it's true I made an incorrect assumption about that, for which I apologise. However, even immigrants to North America who are stepping off the boat today are only in a position to do so because of earlier colonisations by a number of European powers. I'd argue that these immigrants are therefore not entirely "blameless" in the sense that they're taking advantage of an opportunity that has arisen because of earlier subjugation and near-extinction of the native population. OK, they and their direct ancestors weren't personally responsible but they're still exploiting the situation.

The rest of your comments I take on board in the spirit they're sent, McDonald.
I've certainly been guilty of deliberately provocative posts that I could have omitted and let the whole thing lie.
I rarely participate in this section of the board but I'm interested in the Irish situation and I do discuss it a lot with my friends.

(On a final note, my grandmother was Scottish and McDonald was her maiden name, so who knows we could even be related ;)).

I'd just like to add that everyone in the UK must have heard about Wales' magnificent victory in the 6 Nations rugby tournament, bloody good show, that. I grew up in the era when Wales last won the Grand Slam, my dad even had a number of commemorative items around the house such as mirrors, mugs etc. To many of the Welsh, rugby epitomises the spirit of the nation, it is truly more than just a game; spirits will be lifted for some time to come, which is a good thing, as recently the Welsh seem to be suffering from some sort of inferiority complex.


Congratulations to Wales on a thoroughly deserved Grand Slam win, they played a really wonderful style of rugby to watch, particularly the second half of the game in Paris when they came back from a pounding in the first half to win the game.
Although I'm an England supporter I'm delighted for Wales and for the health of the Six Nations championship that they've come good after so long. And of course the Wales U21 team have just done the Grand Slam as well so it augurs well for welsh resurgence of some longevity. You just need to sort out the game at club level now ;).


Maen gas gyda fi Saesneg- I hate the English!

Interesting that "Saesneg" is similar to the Scots "sassenach" - same derivation I guess?

(On a final note, my grandmother was Scottish and McDonald was her maiden name, so who knows we could even be related ;)).


Considering how the Gaelic system of clanship was set up, I wouldn't be surprised if we were very distantly related. Congratulations, you're my new favourite person on the boards. :)

Congratulations to Wales on a thoroughly deserved Grand Slam win, they played a really wonderful style of rugby to watch, particularly the second half of the game in Paris when they came back from a pounding in the first half to win the game.
Although I'm an England supporter I'm delighted for Wales and for the health of the Six Nations championship that they've come good after so long. And of course the Wales U21 team have just done the Grand Slam as well so it augurs well for welsh resurgence of some longevity. You just need to sort out the game at club level now ;).
Interesting that "Saesneg" is similar to the Scots "sassenach" - same derivation I guess?

Cheers, Maddog. (Or even Iechyd Dda- Welsh for "good health", normally pronounced "Yakki da" by anyone non-Welsh!).

I think you're probably right about the Saesneg/ Sassenach thing, though I know very little about the other Gaelic languages. It wouldn't surprise me if it meant 'invaders' or something similar! One thing I do know is that the Breton dialect of North France is quite similar to Welsh, apparently there's also an outpost of Welsh speakers in Patagonia too...

I think you're probably right about the Saesneg/ Sassenach thing...

I just looked it up and they're both derived from the word for "Saxon".

Considering how the Gaelic system of clanship was set up, I wouldn't be surprised if we were very distantly related. Congratulations, you're my new favourite person on the boards. :)


Which area are you from?

My family owned a lot of land around Cork and such...

The Carricks, The Roches, The O'Rourkes, there are a few other names there as well.

They have been there for a long time, the origional Roche settled in Ireland around 30 Years after the Norman Conquest. There is a Roche Castle however it's almost all gone now.

I just looked it up and they're both derived from the word for "Saxon".

Thanks again, Maddog. I can't really flick about looking for facts when I write on here, due to the constraints of doing this while at work.

Can somebody tell me what Y Ddraig Goch a ddyry Gychwyn means.  My husband has a Welsh rugby shirt and that is embroidered on the shirt.

Which area are you from?

My family owned a lot of land around Cork and such...

The Carricks, The Roches, The O'Rourkes, there are a few other names there as well.

They have been there for a long time, the origional Roche settled in Ireland around 30 Years after the Norman Conquest. There is a Roche Castle however it's almost all gone now.


The Clan Donald has its origins in Ulster (of all places). These people had a war with a neighbouring kingdom and were pushed further North, so they began to settle the Northern isles of what is now Scotland, expanding into the highlands and bringing the Gaelic language with them. They moved the capitol of their kingdom (which was called Dal Riada) from northern Ulster to Northern Scotland. Eventually, the line goes down to a guy named Donald, son of Somerled who was the patron of the Clan Donald (the Mac Dhomhnuílls). This was the most powerful clan in all the highlands for centuries.

Eventually, some of the Clan Donald left Scotland and returned to Ireland to work as merceneries. Again, it was mainly in and around Ulster where they settled. When the famine struck, a close ancestor of mine (probably my dad's great-grandfather, seeing as how his grandmother spoke Gaelic) emigrated to Canada. My dad was born in Montréal and reared mostly by his grandmother until she died in a fire in 1965. He spent a few months in an orphanage until they arranged for him to live with relatives in upstate N.Y. Anything I know about my family has had to be put together with bits and pieces, as most of the family history was taken by the fire in '65. All my dad can ever tell me is what his grandmother happened to tell and show him.

Can somebody tell me what Y Ddraig Goch a ddyry Gychwyn means.  My husband has a Welsh rugby shirt and that is embroidered on the shirt.


the first bit (Y Ddraig Goch) means the red dragon.  not sure about the next bit.

My husband was in Wales over the weekend and got carried away with the whol grand slam thing.  He bought my son a Welsh Rugby shirt ot celebrate!

the first bit (Y Ddraig Goch) means the red dragon.  not sure about the next bit.

My husband was in Wales over the weekend and got carried away with the whol grand slam thing.  He bought my son a Welsh Rugby shirt ot celebrate!


Thanks for solving the first half Karen - perhaps the last half means "always wins" or sometihing like it!
The "Y Ddraig Goch" is under the red dragon which is also embroidered on the shirt so that's making sense.  :)

Jaytee

I had a quick look at the BBC welsh language page but could only translate the last word "Gychwyn" as starts or initiates.  The first bit is a mutation (spelling changes because of the letters in the surrounding words) and I don't know what the original word is.  I'll try and remember to look it up tonight.

Can somebody tell me what Y Ddraig Goch a ddyry Gychwyn means.  My husband has a Welsh rugby shirt and that is embroidered on the shirt.

"The Red Dragon will show the way"- a sort of indication that the dragon, a spiritual symbol of Welsh spirit, will lead the way forward- I read it as "if the Welsh work together as a people, results will ensue". I may be wrong in that appreciation, though...

"The Red Dragon will show the way"- a sort of indication that the dragon, a spiritual symbol of Welsh spirit, will lead the way forward- I read it as "if the Welsh work together as a people, results will ensue". I may be wrong in that appreciation, though...


Many thanks  :)