Hi Guys (apologies for advance for a long-winded introduction to this post  ::)

Having been a big critic of the US of A in the last few weeks, I just felt it was only fair to tell you guys about the things in America that I love for a change; the aspects of your country that imspire a tired, young Brit; the things that, a few years ago, made me want to live in the good old US of A. Please bear in mind the following are emotiional impressions and not impirical evaluations of your country. I wanted to balance any negativity in my arguments with a general explanation of my interest and appreciation of America and the American people.I offer these comments neither as reprobation nor as justification for the USA's actions in the past, present or future amd  I assure you I'll be a left wing pinko right wing bater until I die but that don't stop me thinking you guys have got some great stuff happening and some amazing ideas.

1. OPTIMISM - there is, in my opinion, no country in the world, that has the inherent sense of optimism for the future (however ironic this may seem to some) as the USA. If self-belief was made out of gold, your country would be the richest on the planet and although it is tinged with naivety or innocence if you like, that optimism is a greener grass on the other side of the fence compared to the cynicism and somewhat world-weary atttudes of Europe.

2. ROCK AND ROLL - you guys invented it. We made it better in the UK. you guys made it better again in the USA and so on. Without the USA there would have been no Beatles, Stones, Hendrix, Floyd, Doors, Beach Boys, Miles Davis, Ray Charles, Van Morrison, etc. Nice one guys - heres one Brit along with many with a brain who realises how important you guys have been to something that is the greatest love of my life.

3. REVOLUTIONARY THOUGHT IN THE 20th CENTURY - while Europe may well have been the laboratory for much philosophy, America has been the devils playground where so much of this theory has been developed through the 60s, 70s and onwards into the 00s. I have heard more debate, rhetoric and interesting arguments on this forum than on any in the UK. All we seem to be bothered about is Fox hunting and Prince Charles' wedding (although I am personally glad that the government were forced in the UK to build a 'sunset' clause into the new terrorism laws - maybe an unelected house of old duffers has a purpose after all?!?). While arguments in the USA may rage over things that really do not warrant argument - free health care, education, welfare - in my opinion and experience, there are many that I have found fascinating and have been inpressed by the level of debate ob both sides of the argument (even though I know I'm always right when I'm always left  ;D) Thank you for Theroux, Kinsey, Hunter S, Ginsberg, Whiyman, Twain, King, Kennedy (J &R), Clinton (sorry republicans I like the guy!), Malcolm X, Hemingway, Steinbeck, Dylan, Springsteen, Woody Allen, PJ O'Rourke (sorry my fellow lefties but he is a valid commentator) and the much maligned Michael Moore. Long may you rail, hate, love and debate...

4. THE AMERICAN PEOPLE - who, when all is said and done, are a generally decent, fair minded, open, loving and libertarian force. The kind of people who, as I have found, when you are tired and lost in a strange city will offer a silly, confused Brit a cup of coffee for free and call them a cab; the kind of people who believe in the idea of a fair days work for a fair days pay and are willing to work hard to improve themselves; the kind of people whose forebears of all creeds and colours, can come together as a community from time to time and remember what that flag of stars and stripes truly represents not just to the the American people but as a symbol to the world at large - equality, freedom of speech, freedom from fear, oppression and poverty; freedom to pursue that most nebulous and individual of things that has become known as 'the American Dream'.

I love America, my mother married an American GI sarge during WWII (well romantic - totally that movie Yanks with Richard Gere) so I guess that makes me kinda American by descent as my late father is from Salt Lake City, Utah while my Mom is pure Welsh (Cymru) from the mining valleys of the Rhondda. I'm proud of the American aspect of my heritage and proud of my British heritage but I wave neither flag without just cause.

Please accept these late night (3am) ramblings from a Brit with Yank blood who has no religion except humanity itself, whose heartfelt desire is to once more see America as the country of hope, opportunity, optimism, thought and progress in the world. My father before he died had begun to despair at the country he had grown up in (he died in 2001) and as an ex-marine he was, as a Republican American horrified at the war in Iraq. He was one of the first GIs into Hiroshima after the bomb and, as long as I knew him, he could never talk about those experiences and he had changed from being a conservative in his youth to voting Labour in the UK in the elections before he died (at 81 - good, hardy farm folk ya see). He hadn't been back to USA since the 60s and I remember him saying, when I offered to take him out there a few years before his death, that he'd rather remember the America he grew up in than the America as it had become.

I didn't really understand him at the time but, having thought a lot about that over the years, I guess I do now. It wasn't that he had become anti-America, he just felt that the America he had known, loved and told me so much about... well, he believed it no longer existed. I, for all of that, believe it still does, even if it is hidden beneath the media rhetoric and political spin of the present age.

So for all of my criticisms, for all of my leftie European ideas and ideals, for all my experiences of what I will always believe is a better way of life in Europe for the average Joe than it is in the USA, I am and remain a big supporter of the US of A. If I offend you with my words, I am sorry. If I make you think twice, then I am achieving something, The future of mankind is in the hands of its people wherever they may roam which is why, in the long run, I'm an internationalist. Team Humanity - Funk Yeah !!!!

Keep safe and see ya in Texas next week y'all :)

Well said, Martin. We look forward to having you here in Texas. :)

This is inspiring me to make another topic..

Well, that's a tough question for me to answer without stirring up a big debate.. alot of people don't agree with my views because I support Bush and I support the war... so I won't get into the patriotic stuff..

But here goes:

When you dig deep into the base of America, you will find many good things. Our politics, however, are a cloud over what America is really about.  For a long time, I thought about how much everyone here complains, and how crime here has skyrocketed and nobody seems to care.  I would hear the "rap" garbage on the radio, see the video games of people killing each other in cold blood, I would hear so many stories of children as young as 10 who carry guns, don't respect their parents, drink alcohol, etc.. and I would wonder what happened to our country.

Then I saw how people were treated in Afghanistan.  They were told how to wear their hair.  They were told whether or not they have permission to drive.  They could not listen to music or watch TV or play sports.  Women had to have their heads covered.

Then I saw how people were treated in Iraq.  The president's sons could rape you and nobody would do anything about it.   If you were not of Saddam's ethnic preference, he could kill you, or send you to live in caves with no electricity or running water.

America has its problems... and I'm sure all countries do.. but I can't think of anyplace I'd rather be.

BTW UK Visitor, I like Tony Blair alot.  I really enjoy his speeches.

Lets face it, for all our exercise of free speech, we all prefer Bush and Blair to Saddam and Stalin if only because we retian the right to bitch about our leadership.

I still maintain a great love of the previous leader of the Labour Party in the UK, Neil Kinnock, who I believe is the greatest leader this country never had. Purely because he was a res headed, welsh man who didnt fit the GQ look that so many spin doctors required. A true intellectual and humble man who I had the ptivilege to meet a few years back.

I'll always love him for th efact that when a democrat senator came to the UK to visit him as leader of the Opposition Party in the UK, he was still living i a 3 bed semi-detached house in the Welsh Valleys. The Senator turned up with all the standard security to find Neil standing on his doorstep, with no  police or Special Branch, welcoming him into his very humble home for Tea and cakes.

Now I've said what I love about the USA - thats the kinda stuf I love about GB ;)

And lets face it, you'll always love home wherever it may be. I'm sure the Iraqi's love their homes as much as we in West love ours. Maybe thast why they'd like us to butt out now I guess (not trying to start a new topic but you know what I mean).

And lets face it, you'll always love home wherever it may be. I'm sure the Iraqi's love their homes as much as we in West love ours. Maybe thast why they'd like us to butt out now I guess (not trying to start a new topic but you know what I mean).


I don't agree with that... if everyone really loved their home, I don't think Britain or the US would be flooded with immigrants every year dating back centuries...  it's funny how people seem to be so Anti-American but they haven't stopped flowing in... (not that I have any problem with immigration, it's just: Why do they keep coming here if they love their homes and don't like America?)

I don't agree with that... if everyone really loved their home, I don't think Britain or the US would be flooded with immigrants every year dating back centuries... it's funny how people seem to be so Anti-American but they haven't stopped flowing in... (not that I have any problem with immigration, it's just: Why do they keep coming here if they love their homes and don't like America?)


Everyone loves their home. Nearly all of the immigrants I talk to love and miss their homelands, they are hear because of problems there. Our ancestors came for the most part for similar reasons. Someday, if America were to implode and there was some other country as the 'shining city on a hill', then we would be immigrating there in droves. Humans will always be attracted to the places with the best living oppurtunities.

But that doesn't mean they don't still love their homes.

And that is a pretty arrogant assesment of you to think otherwise. You call it a 'flood' of immigrants, well, perhaps it seems like a flood to you. BUT out of the 3-4 million immigrants the West gets every year from the developing world, they are only a small fraction. You still have about 5 billion people who are staying in those countries.

Everyone loves their home. Nearly all of the immigrants I talk to love and miss their homelands, they are hear because of problems there. Our ancestors came for the most part for similar reasons. Someday, if America were to implode and there was some other country as the 'shining city on a hill', then we would be immigrating there in droves. Humans will always be attracted to the places with the best living oppurtunities.

But that doesn't mean they don't still love their homes.

And that is a pretty arrogant assesment of you to think otherwise. You call it a 'flood' of immigrants, well, perhaps it seems like a flood to you. BUT out of the 3-4 million immigrants the West gets every year from the developing world, they are only a small fraction. You still have about 5 billion people who are staying in those countries.


I'm not meaning to be arrogant... like I said, I don't have a problem with immigration... anyone who wants to make a better life for themselves and plans to work and be contributing members of society should be welcomed here...  My point is, for the amount of people who knock America, there sure are alot coming here... so there must be alot of advantages to American life, some of which I probably don't even see, since I have no foreign experience to compare it to...

I'm not meaning to be arrogant... like I said, I don't have a problem with immigration... anyone who wants to make a better life for themselves and plans to work and be contributing members of society should be welcomed here... My point is, for the amount of people who knock America, there sure are alot coming here... so there must be alot of advantages to American life, some of which I probably don't even see, since I have no foreign experience to compare it to...


The EU is also getting tons of immigrants.

You see, the thing is this. Conservatives always accuse liberals of not appreciating America. That isn't true, I recognize America is better than MOST other places in the world. But you see, we don't just love America blindly(meaning we react harshly to ANY criticism of it and use over-exaggerated praise of it's good qualities as an excuse to not fix it's problems). Liberals, we can only accept the best. We want a better America, and progress.

Conservatives seem to me about broad, simplistic ideals. They seem to think the free enterprise system will just balance itself out and everyone will come out happy and everything will be fair. But thats not how it really works. I think Liberalism, or at least my liberalism, is more pragmatic.

A perfect example of how Conservative beliefs is just an empty, simplistic ideal and how Liberal beliefs are more based in how things work:

The Pro-Death penalty Conservaitves argue that society shouldn't pay to keep murderers alive.

YET, death row and execution costs more than just keeping people locked up.

;)

Well, that's a tough question for me to answer without stirring up a big debate.. alot of people don't agree with my views because I support Bush and I support the war... so I won't get into the patriotic stuff..

But here goes:

When you dig deep into the base of America, you will find many good things. Our politics, however, are a cloud over what America is really about.  For a long time, I thought about how much everyone here complains, and how crime here has skyrocketed and nobody seems to care.  I would hear the "rap" garbage on the radio, see the video games of people killing each other in cold blood, I would hear so many stories of children as young as 10 who carry guns, don't respect their parents, drink alcohol, etc.. and I would wonder what happened to our country.

Then I saw how people were treated in Afghanistan.  They were told how to wear their hair.  They were told whether or not they have permission to drive.  They could not listen to music or watch TV or play sports.  Women had to have their heads covered.

Then I saw how people were treated in Iraq.  The president's sons could rape you and nobody would do anything about it.   If you were not of Saddam's ethnic preference, he could kill you, or send you to live in caves with no electricity or running water.

America has its problems... and I'm sure all countries do.. but I can't think of anyplace I'd rather be.

BTW UK Visitor, I like Tony Blair alot.  I really enjoy his speeches.


I don't think crime rates are skyrocketing, the media just makes it seem that way. 

What do I like most about America?  Opportunity and our wilderness.

I don't particularly LIKE the death penalty.  But given the way our criminal justice system is, it is necessary.  I would like to see the death penalty banished, because I think life in a proper prison environment is worse than a "humane, sudden death"  but in order to get rid of the death penalty, our criminal justice system needs a complete overhaul.

First of all... if you are a law enforcement officer or fbi, etc and you think i've done something wrong, PLEASE come search me.  The quicker you can clear my name, the better.  I have nothing to hide.  Why do police need a "search warrant"?  That gives criminals plenty of time to hide whatever it is they may have...

Secondly... if a police officer stops a suspicious person, they get "Oh, you're just picking on me because I'm (insert race here).  Liberals call it "racial profiling" and condemn it... but again, if you are looking for a white female 5' 10" driving a black Chevy Blazer, hey I fit the description. CHECK ME OUT!  I have no problem with that.

Thirdly... If police somehow obtain concrete evidence without a warrant, or a tapped phone conversation that completely incriminates someone, that is INADMISSABLE???  Come on!

Fourthly... A prison or jail cell should be an 8x8 cell with a bed, a light, a toilet and a window. Food and water should be provided.  "Playtime"  "Exercise rooms"  "Phone priviledges"  "Visitors" "Satellite Television"  "Internet" should not be part of the jail/prison environment, at least not for violent offenders.

Fifthly... Prisoners should serve their time, not be paroled in less than half.  Why they release sex offenders I can't figure out.

Point is, let the police do their job, make the prisons PRISONS and not country clubs, then I would say the death penalty is no longer necessary.  Until then, what reason do criminals have NOT to commit crimes?  They know they can use all the loopholes our system has to offer them and they get to spend their time playing basketball, working out, watching satellite TV, playing on the internet, socializing, sleeping in.... some of US don't even have those luxuries.

I don't particularly LIKE the death penalty.  But given the way our criminal justice system is, it is necessary.  I would like to see the death penalty banished, because I think life in a proper prison environment is worse than a "humane, sudden death"  but in order to get rid of the death penalty, our criminal justice system needs a complete overhaul.

First of all... if you are a law enforcement officer or fbi, etc and you think i've done something wrong, PLEASE come search me.  The quicker you can clear my name, the better.  I have nothing to hide.   Why do police need a "search warrant"?  That gives criminals plenty of time to hide whatever it is they may have...

Secondly... if a police officer stops a suspicious person, they get "Oh, you're just picking on me because I'm (insert race here).   Liberals call it "racial profiling" and condemn it... but again, if you are looking for a white female 5' 10" driving a black Chevy Blazer, hey I fit the description. CHECK ME OUT!  I have no problem with that.

Thirdly... If police somehow obtain concrete evidence without a warrant, or a tapped phone conversation that completely incriminates someone, that is INADMISSABLE???  Come on!

Fourthly... A prison or jail cell should be an 8x8 cell with a bed, a light, a toilet and a window. Food and water should be provided.   "Playtime"  "Exercise rooms"  "Phone priviledges"  "Visitors" "Satellite Television"  "Internet" should not be part of the jail/prison environment, at least not for violent offenders.

Fifthly... Prisoners should serve their time, not be paroled in less than half.  Why they release sex offenders I can't figure out.

Point is, let the police do their job, make the prisons PRISONS and not country clubs, then I would say the death penalty is no longer necessary.  Until then, what reason do criminals have NOT to commit crimes?  They know they can use all the loopholes our system has to offer them and they get to spend their time playing basketball, working out, watching satellite TV, playing on the internet, socializing, sleeping in.... some of US don't even have those luxuries.


Why do you think Prison has to be hell?  The luxuries are truly ridiculous but if your reason for being against dp is because you think it's too merciful then why not execute them? It would be just as effective.

Why do you think Prison has to be hell?  The luxuries are truly ridiculous but if your reason for being against dp is because you think it's too merciful then why not execute them? It would be just as effective.


Well, prison should be hell.. what else is going to stop people from committing crimes??

My biggest problem with the death penalty is the possibility of an innocent person being executed and the truth being found out later.  I'm sure it has happened and will continue to happen.

Well, prison should be hell.. what else is going to stop people from committing crimes??

My biggest problem with the death penalty is the possibility of an innocent person being executed and the truth being found out later.  I'm sure it has happened and will continue to happen.


Good points.  I'm parly pro-death because I think there is simply no hope for some people. 

As for prison stopping crimes, I doubt it helps much. Criminals don't have functional minds; that's exactly what a criminal is: someone who doesn't understand consequence. 

But yes, prison is too luxurious.  They should only be given enough not to lose their mind and health.  No extra.

Well, whatever it takes, we really need to clean this place up so that wherever you live, you can feel safe to walk outside your house after dark.

I believe I read that Japan beats their criminals and even did that to an American visitor once... I don't necessarily think that's the answer here in America, but I also read they have the lowest violent crime rate in the world because crime simply isn't tolerated.

Well, whatever it takes, we really need to clean this place up so that wherever you live, you can feel safe to walk outside your house after dark.

I believe I read that Japan beats their criminals and even did that to an American visitor once... I don't necessarily think that's the answer here in America, but I also read they have the lowest violent crime rate in the world because crime simply isn't tolerated.


Yeah that's my feeling ... whatever it takes.  I'm against doing any more than that, because then all it does is satisfies our innate lust for blood by giving us an excuse to be violent.  That's just wrong.

Well somehow "The Best Thing About America Is" turned into a debate about death penalty and criminal justice... so just to try to get back on topic, I will say that even though it seems like all our freedom keeps getting taken away from us, after seeing what people go through in other parts of the world, I am reminded of how much freedom we really have..

Well somehow "The Best Thing About America Is" turned into a debate about death penalty and criminal justice... so just to try to get back on topic, I will say that even though it seems like all our freedom keeps getting taken away from us, after seeing what people go through in other parts of the world, I am reminded of how much freedom we really have..


Okay :)  America is better than most countries. The only countries I'd rather live in are Austrailia, New Zealand, Canada, and maybe a couple European countries on the continent (not France, Germany, Italy, or Spain, more like Switzerland)

Well somehow "The Best Thing About America Is" turned into a debate about death penalty and criminal justice... so just to try to get back on topic, I will say that even though it seems like all our freedom keeps getting taken away from us, after seeing what people go through in other parts of the world, I am reminded of how much freedom we really have..


Although that still doesn't make it ok for us to lose our freedoms. Like I said, only the best for America. ;)

Okay :) America is better than most countries. The only countries I'd rather live in are Austrailia, New Zealand, Canada, and maybe a couple European countries on the continent (not France, Germany, Italy, or Spain, more like Switzerland)


If I hAd to pick somewhere else to live, Spain would be my number one pick by far.

If I hAd to pick somewhere else to live, Spain would be my number one pick by far.


I'd want to visit Spain.  I don't know, I'm sure I'm wrong but I feel most of the Spanish culture went overseas to the Americas, leaving a barren country.  Sort of like Greece.  What's Greece today?  Just some Eastern European mountain country pretty much.

I'd want to visit Spain. I don't know, I'm sure I'm wrong but I feel most of the Spanish culture went overseas to the Americas, leaving a barren country. Sort of like Greece. What's Greece today? Just some Eastern European mountain country pretty much.


Huh? That is so untrue. The Spanish culture is much richer in my opinion than any of the Latin American countries. And since when has the Greek culture been exported abroad en masse?

Spain is a wonderful, vibrant country. Modern, yet they are more laid back in little ways that really make it a nicer place to be. Its that mediterranean lifestyle. Better weather than most places in Europe, and many places in the US. Tasty, HEALTHY cuisine(the mediterranean region has the lowest rates of heart disease in the western world), lots of great music, clubs, etc.

¡Viva la españa!

One day when I am old and rich I will retire there lol. I also plan to vacation there at least every other year once I am financially stable. And I'm also going to be doing a foreign language study abroad program in Madrid sometime in the next 5 years. I will be staying with a host family.

Huh? That is so untrue. The Spanish culture is much richer in my opinion than any of the Latin American countries. And since when has the Greek culture been exported abroad en masse?

Spain is a wonderful, vibrant country. Modern, yet they are more laid back in little ways that really make it a nicer place to be. Its that mediterranean lifestyle. Better weather than most places in Europe, and many places in the US. Tasty, HEALTHY cuisine(the mediterranean region has the lowest rates of heart disease in the western world), lots of great music, clubs, etc.

¡Viva la españa!

One day when I am old and rich I will retire there lol. I also plan to vacation there at least every other year once I am financially stable. And I'm also going to be doing a foreign language study abroad program in Madrid sometime in the next 5 years. I will be staying with a host family.


I know I'm way wrong.  That's just how I feel/felt.  Spain sounds cool.  If I had to live in Europe it would probably be Switzerland.  It's beautiful and secure.

... it's a long way from Australia.

... it's a long way from Australia.


:P

Of course I love the U.S. It is my home. I once wore the uniform to defend her. Do I think the U.S. is the best nation in the world? I really can't say because I haven't seen first hand how other nations are. But, I think that U.S. could be so much better than it is. I would like to see it truly be the best nation in the world. That is why I am vocal about what I think is wrong with this country. If I didn't care or didn't want it to be better, I wouldn't say a word, or I would leave. But one thing that I love about it is the First Admendment of the Constitution which gives me the right to state my opinions about it.




Cat

I'll certainly go along with your initial post, UKVisitor.  :)

First off let me say that you made a great post UKvistor.  I agree with everything you said.


Well, that's a tough question for me to answer without stirring up a big debate.. alot of people don't agree with my views because I support Bush and I support the war... so I won't get into the patriotic stuff..

But here goes:

When you dig deep into the base of America, you will find many good things. Our politics, however, are a cloud over what America is really about. 
America has its problems... and I'm sure all countries do.. but I can't think of anyplace I'd rather be.



Au contraire mis ami.  The fact that we can discuss issues and express contrary opinions with civility and (mostly) intelligance is one of the things that makes this country great.  So you keep right on expressing your views, and when I or others disagree we will let you know,  try to let you know why, and try to convince you to change your mind, as you should try to convince us.

I can't agree that politics is a "cloud" over America.  There is much to critisize about the way some politciians behave (no names, this isn't the place), but politics is the peoples' business.  At the end of the day no one may be totally satisfied, but resolving issues through debate, discussion, and the vote, although tedious and inefficient, is sure the best way to do it.  I think it was Winston Churchill who said "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others".

Yes, America does indeed have its problems, most of them self inflicted.  We resolve the through public debate and the voting booth as best we can, with each of us advocating for the solutions we think would be best for all of us.  It only gets ugly (becomes a cloud) when one side accuses the other of being unpatriotic.

I truely believe that the best patriot is the one willing the critisize that which needs improvement.  To paraphrase H.L.Menken, it is the job of the patriot to "comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable".

Sorry if this sounds preachy, I don't mean it that way.

It only gets ugly (becomes a cloud) when one side accuses the other of being unpatriotic.





Well that's kind of my point... I enjoy talking to alot of people on this board about music, movies, etc... It just so happens I have strong political views, and sometimes people will think you're a bad person because they don't share the same views...  I make a point to keep politics in politics and I don't even think about people's political views when I'm discussing music or other things...

I see that El Duderino thinks the same way.. he can bash my views all he wants in political threads (which he's more than welcome to do, and sometimes I do the same) but he doesn't carry it to other areas of the board... I like that.. but I'm still kinda new here and not looking to make enemies =)

That's what I meant by ugly.

btw when I said politics are a cloud over what America is really about, I meant that foreigners who have never been here see our politicians and the war but they don't see true ordinary American life...

just like when I think of France I think of wimpy, wont stand up for themselves and women who dont shave their armpits.  I know it's not fair... but I've never been there so I can only base my thoughts on what has been drilled into my head... that too, is a cloud.

First of all... if you are a law enforcement officer or fbi, etc and you think i've done something wrong, PLEASE come search me. The quicker you can clear my name, the better. I have nothing to hide. Why do police need a "search warrant"? That gives criminals plenty of time to hide whatever it is they may have...



3 simple words: Balance Of Power.  They don't give criminals time to hide the stuff...most of the time the people don't realize that they are about to be searched until the warrant is issued and the police are on their doorstep.  The police need to show justification for the warrant to a judge.  If there were no warrants they could search just because...that is not a good thing.

Of course I love the U.S. It is my home. I once wore the uniform to defend her. Do I think the U.S. is the best nation in the world? I really can't say because I haven't seen first hand how other nations are. But, I think that U.S. could be so much better than it is. I would like to see it truly be the best nation in the world. That is why I am vocal about what I think is wrong with this country. If I didn't care or didn't want it to be better, I wouldn't say a word, or I would leave. But one thing that I love about it is the First Admendment of the Constitution which gives me the right to state my opinions about it.




Cat


Well said, Cat. :)

3 simple words: Balance Of Power.  They don't give criminals time to hide the stuff...most of the time the people don't realize that they are about to be searched until the warrant is issued and the police are on their doorstep.  The police need to show justification for the warrant to a judge.  If there were no warrants they could search just because...that is not a good thing.


It may not be a good thing but I think it is becoming necessary... every day I hear about someone who has been shot, stabbed, raped, etc..  it all seems far away but it could be your friend or family member who was just walking out of the house to go to the store..  would you rather have police/security checking all the lockers in your child's highschool daily to be sure there are no guns?  with or without cause??  or would you rather take the chance that some deranged student who is quiet and anti-social might be hiding a gun just waiting for the right moment but nobody knows because there is no "justification" for a warrant?

Oh yeah.  The Best Thing About America.  umm.. maybe we need a new thread for how to solve this nation's crime problems.

Oh yeah. The Best Thing About America. umm.. maybe we need a new thread for how to solve this nation's crime problems.


1.Legalize marijuana
2.Actually keep rapists and murders in prison
3.Give adequate funding to police agencies(they still aren't getting it)

Legalization will release a lot of nonviolent drug offenders, and will help to reduce crime rates in urban areas by taking the marijuana market out of the hands of street gangs and thugs and putting it into the "legal mainstream". The extra capital in taxes and the money saved, can be re-focused on giving police departments adequate funding and going after the REAL problem on the streets: drug manufacturers(of substances like methamphetamines(sp?)), and drug smugglers. It also will allow them to give more attention to border security.

And more importantly, perhaps rapists will actually do hard time. The way things are right now, the average convicted rapist does less time in prison than the average convicted drug offender. Sad.

Also, I think properly funding after-school programs, keeping college oppurtunities as broad as possible, funding neighborhood watch groups, and finding ways to make security systems more affordable for inner-city homes could all help.

Freedom.

But remember, the price of freedom is eternal vigilence, as old TJ said, and we need much more vigilence of our current government.

1.Legalize marijuana
2.Actually keep rapists and murders in prison
3.Give adequate funding to police agencies(they still aren't getting it)

Legalization will release a lot of nonviolent drug offenders, and will help to reduce crime rates in urban areas by taking the marijuana market out of the hands of street gangs and thugs and putting it into the "legal mainstream". The extra capital in taxes and the money saved, can be re-focused on giving police departments adequate funding and going after the REAL problem on the streets: drug manufacturers(of substances like methamphetamines(sp?)), and drug smugglers. It also will allow them to give more attention to border security.

And more importantly, perhaps rapists will actually do hard time. The way things are right now, the average convicted rapist does less time in prison than the average convicted drug offender. Sad.

Also, I think properly funding after-school programs, keeping college oppurtunities as broad as possible, funding neighborhood watch groups, and finding ways to make security systems more affordable for inner-city homes could all help.


That's truly pathetic. Rape is so much worse than any drug offense.  Loser judges  >:(

What sounds to you like a good yearspan for rape and murder? I say for Rape and spontaneous Murder 20-40 years and for Cold Murder and Habitual sex offenders life in prison or death penalty, death given if they're unremorseful.

I say those guilty of straight up rape should have to SERVE(note the word) a minimum of ten years. And I think this crime should be a two-strike policy, if you get out and get convicted for it again, life. No parole.

Murder..well it depends on what degree. As far as 1st degree, cold-blooded murder(they were sane at the time, its not a crime of passion), life in prison, no parole.

If it is 2nd degree murder(they kill someone in an assault without intending to), I'm not sure..and the third degree is a pure accident i think, like if you accidently run someone over or something. Murder of the 2nd and 3rd degree, the sentences should depend more on the circumstances.

just a little fyi... i made a new thread for this criminal stuff so ukvisitor can find his answers about the best thing about America =)

i think we kinda messed up his thread...

sorry uk

No worries ;)

That's truly pathetic. Rape is so much worse than any drug offense.  Loser judges  >:(

What sounds to you like a good yearspan for rape and murder? I say for Rape and spontaneous Murder 20-40 years and for Cold Murder and Habitual sex offenders life in prison or death penalty, death given if they're unremorseful.

Actually, the blame lies with the "tough on crime" politicians.  Politicians are the ones who push for all those "mandatory minimums," such as found in the infamouse "Rockefeller Drug Laws" on New York.  Mandatory minimums are stumped for in campaigns and pushed by the executive and legislative branches.
The judges hate mandatory minimums because it removes power from judges and hands it to legislatures.
A judge cannot look at mitigating factors and say, "I'm gonna give you a break here, son."  The law tells the judge he or she must sentence the offender to X years for X drug offence.
There are no mandatory minimums for rape.  If a court finds mitigating factors in a rape case, the court can make the specific punishment fit the specific crime.  They can't very well say, "we have to send anybody caught with a pound of dope to life in prison, so you have to go to prison for life too."  So the judges know there will be cases where people say, "Hey, a rapist/murderer/burglar got less time than the pot smoker."
Manditory minimums are a good way for rightwing pols to get at those soft-on-crime judges.  Just watch O'Reilly!

Hey Maxwell I made a new thread for the crime topic... This was supposed to be UKVisitor's "Best Thing About America" thread that we accidentally mutilated...

just an fyi for future crime posts  :)

Some of the best things about America are that we are all innocent until proven guilty of a crime, and that we are protected against unreasonable search and seizure.  Don't give up these right.  As Ben Franklin said (partaphrase) "he who is willing to give up liberty for temporary security will have neither liberty nor security".

"he who is willing to give up liberty for temporary security will have neither liberty nor security".


While liberty means alot here in America compared to other parts of the world, it is kind of a "trick word".  Liberty has a price, and unfortunately that price is also liberty.

California has a law which bans smoking in all public places, this giving people LIBERTY to breath clean air.  The price?  The LIBERTY of business owners to run THEIR businesses the way they want to.

The city in CA where I used to live had zoning regulations which prohibited having a second residence on a lot.  This gave my neighbors the LIBERTY of being able to live in a non-crowded environment with open space and extra street parking.  The price?  My LIBERTY to build what I want on MY land.

Abortion gives women the LIBERTY to make decisions about THEIR bodies.  The price?  The liberty of the unborn baby to live.  (Whether or not a fetus is a life is the big debate)

Liberty comes at the cost of liberty, however you look at it.

Actually, the blame lies with the "tough on crime" politicians.  Politicians are the ones who push for all those "mandatory minimums," such as found in the infamouse "Rockefeller Drug Laws" on New York.  Mandatory minimums are stumped for in campaigns and pushed by the executive and legislative branches.
The judges hate mandatory minimums because it removes power from judges and hands it to legislatures.
A judge cannot look at mitigating factors and say, "I'm gonna give you a break here, son."  The law tells the judge he or she must sentence the offender to X years for X drug offence.
There are no mandatory minimums for rape.  If a court finds mitigating factors in a rape case, the court can make the specific punishment fit the specific crime.  They can't very well say, "we have to send anybody caught with a pound of dope to life in prison, so you have to go to prison for life too."  So the judges know there will be cases where people say, "Hey, a rapist/murderer/burglar got less time than the pot smoker."
Manditory minimums are a good way for rightwing pols to get at those soft-on-crime judges.  Just watch O'Reilly!


That's a good point.  I do think rape charges are way too lax though.  Very few, if any rapes required only the year spans they give.  If Kobe's guilty as charged, for instance, I'd sentence him to 20 years.  By then he'd be 45, so his life would be halfway over and he might have gained half a mind. 

Why's burglary put up with murder and rape?  Buglary imo is the highest of petty crimes, unless they're threat of murder.  It's not one of the very worst.

My favourite part of America is, I must say, the literary legacy we have. In a little over 200 years we have produced an astounding body of English literature, and some of the best pieces of literature ever written. America has produced some of the most prolific and important authors of the 19th, and 20th centuries. I'm proud of that.

My favourite American authors thus far:

Ernest Hemingway
Ray Bradbury
Kurt Vonnegut
Jack Kerouac
Robert Frost
Ken Kesey
John Updike
Robert Heinlein
Shirley Jackson
Hunter S. Thompson
Nathaniel Hawthorne
J.D. Salinger
Henry David Thoreau
Bret Easton Ellis
Chuck P.
David Sedaris
James Leonard Park

I admire also the cultural movements from which many of these authors arose. I look back on the intellectual scenes of the 40s, 50s, and 60s and I'm just in awe of the sense of freedom and humanity present in them. I feel proud to be a part of a country which has produced that.

Don't forget O'Henry and Joseph Conrad! And wasn't Jack London an American too?

My favorite current author is John D. McDonald. My favorites among the classic writers are: Mark Twain, John Steinbeck, Joseph Conrad, O'Henry, Jack London, J.D. Salinger, and Hunter S. Thompson(sad that hes part of this group now).

I'm not familiar with a couple of those authors McD, but, this is just my opininon..but I cannot stand Thoreau. What a hack. He has got to be the most overrated writer in American history. And I am grieved that millions of High Schoolers are put through the pain of having to read his "Transendentalist" ramblings in English III. I don't really care for that literary movement, nor it's British counterpart of "Romanticism".

I'd much rather read John Steinbeck. :P

Don't forget O'Henry and Joseph Conrad! And wasn't Jack London an American too?

My favorite current author is John D. McDonald. My favorites among the classic writers are: Mark Twain, John Steinbeck, Joseph Conrad, O'Henry, Jack London, J.D. Salinger, and Hunter S. Thompson(sad that hes part of this group now).

I'm not familiar with a couple of those authors McD, but, this is just my opininon..but I cannot stand Thoreau. What a hack. He has got to be the most overrated writer in American history. And I am grieved that millions of High Schoolers are put through the pain of having to read his "Transendentalist" ramblings in English III. I don't really care for that literary movement, nor it's British counterpart of "Romanticism".

I'd much rather read John Steinbeck. :P


Oh yes, how could I forget to mention Twain? Steinbeck! Damn... Oh well, I was working on the spot. As far as Romanticism is concerned, I believe it is necessary to teach it to balance everyday Realism, lest young minds never see the opportunity to explore their feelings fearlessly. I am not a full-fledged Romantic, I'm too realistic and existential for that. I realise that their is a real world despite one's feelings, but I also know that in the end, these feelings are what you're left with. In Thoreau's own words...

"I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived."

Ok I'm going off topic here but I have a question on literature...

Do you guys know a good book that tells the history of the Israel/Palestine conflict?

I'm looking for a factual, neutral type of book, not an opinion from either side...

That is one area I need more knowledge on..

Ok I'm going off topic here but I have a question on literature...

Do you guys know a good book that tells the history of the Israel/Palestine conflict?

I'm looking for a factual, neutral type of book, not an opinion from either side...

That is one area I need more knowledge on..

Indespensible on the subject:
Noam Chomsky: The Fateful Triangle
http://www.southendpress.org/books/fateful2.shtml

Indespensible on the subject:
Noam Chomsky: The Fateful Triangle
http://www.southendpress.org/books/fateful2.shtml


Thank you.

Indespensible on the subject:
Noam Chomsky: The Fateful Triangle
http://www.southendpress.org/books/fateful2.shtml


While I have tremendous respect for Noam Chomsky I wouldn't call him neutral.  When it comes to such a contraversial issue I doubt that any writer is neutral.  My suggestion would be to start with the post World War 1 distribution of the former Ottoman Empire and work through the history from there.  Then read analysis from both the Palistinian and the Zionist sides and draw your own conclusions. 

While liberty means alot here in America compared to other parts of the world, it is kind of a "trick word".  Liberty has a price, and unfortunately that price is also liberty.

California has a law which bans smoking in all public places, this giving people LIBERTY to breath clean air.  The price?  The LIBERTY of business owners to run THEIR businesses the way they want to.

The city in CA where I used to live had zoning regulations which prohibited having a second residence on a lot.  This gave my neighbors the LIBERTY of being able to live in a non-crowded environment with open space and extra street parking.  The price?  My LIBERTY to build what I want on MY land.

Abortion gives women the LIBERTY to make decisions about THEIR bodies.  The price?  The liberty of the unborn baby to live.  (Whether or not a fetus is a life is the big debate)

Liberty comes at the cost of liberty, however you look at it.


Your point is well taken.  You might want to read (or re-read) John Locke's Two Treaties on Cilil Government in which he argues that we are all born completely soveriegn but give up some of our sovereignty to the state in order to create civic society and live together in relative peace.  My view is that government protects my liberty to the extent that it restricts the actions of the powerful to inflict harm on me.  But you do raise some fundamental questions about which political philosophers have been debating since the Enlightenment and have yet to resolve.