This is leading off a point I made in another thread but I'm curious to know what people on the board would think. As a European who also happens to British and a Britain who also happens to be Welsh I have no problem with the growth of the the macro-state as I believe that the REAL problems facing this planet, and specifically human beings future on it, require global solutions that no one country alone can solve.

After all it was the USA that took the lead in bringing a wide range of individual states into a republic and, although there will be difficulties with language and cultures in Europe, I hope to see the same in my lifetime over here.

There are many reasons why we should be unified and very few against such unification in my opinion. Do you think it would be a good thing or not? I'm curious.

One problem is that the existence of two Western superpowers could lead to a worldwide power struggle - especially if the ideological gap between the USA and most europeans continues to widen

One problem is that the existence of two Western superpowers could lead to a worldwide power struggle - especially if the ideological gap between the USA and most europeans continues to widen


I think that is why it is a good thing. As a liberal, I will be glad to have another superpower around to keep our imperialist ambitions in check..:[

..God, I hate having to say that. We are becoming so many things that go against what we were supposed to stand for.

Problem I see isn't so much with the ideological divisions across the Atlantic, but the ones within Europe: I can't believe we'd really be able to work together that well.

Problem I see isn't so much with the ideological divisions across the Atlantic, but the ones within Europe: I can't believe we'd really be able to work together that well.


That's exactly what i was going to say, just with the added point that i think most of the nations in Europe can work with each other well, however i don't think Britian can work with them. If we were to be a part of such a group of states then our best interests would obviously have to be served and i don't believe they would.

You will find that the French, Belgians, Germans, Swiss etc all have a lot in common, however as an Island nation we have come along somewhat differently and have nowhere near as much in common with them. For instance on the continent owning one's property is not seen as imperitive, in Britain it is. There are many small differences but i think these small differences would be the undoing of such a Republic.

I'm not too sure of the question being ask here. Are you asking if Europe should be like the United States where each country would be seperate and also be a part of a whole (like each state in the U.S.) or if the U.S. should become part of the European Union?





Cat

One problem is that the existence of two Western superpowers could lead to a worldwide power struggle - especially if the ideological gap between the USA and most europeans continues to widen


This is precisely why I voted good thing.  One super power is a hegimone, and that has to be bad.  I see a powerful, but unlike the Soviet Union friendly, counter-weight as a moderating factor to the arrogance and irresponsibility of my own government. 


That's exactly what i was going to say, just with the added point that i think most of the nations in Europe can work with each other well, however i don't think Britian can work with them. If we were to be a part of such a group of states then our best interests would obviously have to be served and i don't believe they would.

You will find that the French, Belgians, Germans, Swiss etc all have a lot in common, however as an Island nation we have come along somewhat differently and have nowhere near as much in common with them. For instance on the continent owning one's property is not seen as imperitive, in Britain it is. There are many small differences but i think these small differences would be the undoing of such a Republic.


What you say is, to some extent, true, but as an outside observer - far outside, I have never been to Europe but look forward to a chance to go - it appears that the animosities that go back to Charlemaign's sons on the mainland, and those arising from the Norman Conquest have, since WWII, largely been puty to rest.  Cultural differences between Europeans also seem to be receeding, especially as they become minimalized by the influx of peoples of vastly different cultures from the Middle East and elsewhere.  I hope you Europeans do a better job of integrating/accomodating than we in the US have done.

At this point in time though I see a powerful Europe as the most effective counter-weight to US imperialism and desire for world domination.  Better you guys than China.

What you say is, to some extent, true, but as an outside observer - far outside, I have never been to Europe but look forward to a chance to go - it appears that the animosities that go back to Charlemaign's sons on the mainland, and those arising from the Norman Conquest have, since WWII, largely been puty to rest.  Cultural differences between Europeans also seem to be receeding, especially as they become minimalized by the influx of peoples of vastly different cultures from the Middle East and elsewhere.  I hope you Europeans do a better job of integrating/accomodating than we in the US have done.

At this point in time though I see a powerful Europe as the most effective counter-weight to US imperialism and desire for world domination.  Better you guys than China.


Hmmm.. I can see what your saying there that our differences are nothing compared to your example, the influx of Arabs in to Europe. However is that how we want to get over our differences, finding a common enemy. I've seen this kind of thing happen before, the only problem is that all the audio was in German.. and Black and white is pretty grainy.
Mainland Europe is incredibly Conservative, which is why it suprises me that they are applying pressure to Britain to join the party.

I don't think Europe could be a proper counterweight because although we are independant as such we still rely heavily on the United States.

Hmmm.. I can see what your saying there that our differences are nothing compared to your example, the influx of Arabs in to Europe. However is that how we want to get over our differences, finding a common enemy. I've seen this kind of thing happen before, the only problem is that all the audio was in German.. and Black and white is pretty grainy.
Mainland Europe is incredibly Conservative, which is why it suprises me that they are applying pressure to Britain to join the party.

I don't think Europe could be a proper counterweight because although we are independant as such we still rely heavily on the United States.


I'm not suggesting that the Arab immigrants represent a "common enemy" at all.  I was affraid someone might think that.  Actually, I see it as a challenge to western civilization (in which I firmly believe despite what Ghandi said when asked what he thought of it - "it would be a good idea.")  If those immigrants can be convinced that there are advantages to secular society, and that it need not threaten their religious beliefs, they may become a powerful force to bridge the gap between the west and Islamic fundamentalism.

I too am troubled by the success of the neo-Nazies in Germany, but my understanding (which may be wrong) is that they are concentrated in eastern Germany, the poorest region for obvious reasons.  Hopefully they will be a passing phenomenon, and as I understand it, there are both legal limits (now) and some strong sentiment against them in much og Germany.

You say Europe is dependant on the US, true enough, but the US is also dependant on Europe, not to mention Asia.  Between you 2, you hold about half of our national debt.  That gives you

POWER

Use it wisely.

Hmmm.. I can see what your saying there that our differences are nothing compared to your example, the influx of Arabs in to Europe. However is that how we want to get over our differences, finding a common enemy. I've seen this kind of thing happen before, the only problem is that all the audio was in German.. and Black and white is pretty grainy.
Mainland Europe is incredibly Conservative, which is why it suprises me that they are applying pressure to Britain to join the party.

I don't think Europe could be a proper counterweight because although we are independant as such we still rely heavily on the United States.

Mainland Europe is Conservative?
Our media is constantly telling us that Europe is socialist and secular!

Maybe the UK would like to join the U.S. as the 51st state.  Maybe England, Scotland, and Ireland would like to be the 51st, 52nd, and 53rd states.  Anyway, you could figure all that out amongst yourselves, but that healthcare thing has got to go.

It is secular. Which is nice.

They are a strange bunch there. There is a real left leaning presence in most of the countrys however the Conservativeness is more Don't Change anything as opposed to, screw the world.

Glad you left Wales out of that equation - heh heh - but quite frankly, as much as we have a lot in common with America and the American people, I do not believe for one minute that the US government would have, how shall we say, our best interests at heart even if we did join the union. Having travelled extensively in Europe I've found that, apart from the language, we have more in common than we do with America. We have a shared history of culture, art and religion and a terrible history of wars and genocide which brings us closer.

I also think that the UK can and does act like a bridge between America and Europe as we have a close affinity with both cultures. Sometimes we seem to be like a marriage guidance counsellor - heh heh - when the French or Germans kick off against the US and vice versa and I think America will always have its back foot touching the base in the old country, so to speak. It just seems that, as of late, the USA has decided to go for that home run on its own without checking how the bases are loaded (to continue if not intentionally confuse the metaphor) and I think that has caused the disharmonies not only between the UK and USA but with all the countries of the world. If the USA pulls out of the UN as it seems intent on doing if current political moves in the Senate and elsewhere are to be believed, then the US will become isolated fromthe rest of the world and that will include Britain because - and this I guess is the bottom line - if forced into making the socio-economic and political choice between the two, we will have to side with Europe and the UN. That is the acid test I guess that explains why the answer would be thanks but no thanks on joining the union.

Well UKVistor, if affairs in this country ever to decline to the point where we withdraw from the United Nations, and become isolated like the USSR(heh, a "Red, white, and blue curtain"  ;D), then I will be on a plane headed across the Atlantic quicker than you can say "Visa". Despite the affinity I have for the "old country" though, I probably wouldn't go to Britain. I HATE cold weather, I can not even express my dislike for it in words. I'd probably go to Spain. Porque, se habla Español. :)

How many countries would be in this "USE". there's a lot more people in Europe than America, and a united Europe might be so powerful that the USA would only be a "power". Also, what would happen if someone who wanted to force European Culture upon the world, as they had been doing quite actively until a few decades ago, got into power there? that would probably either result in a massive civil war within Europe, an even bigger war involving basically the whole world, or a return to the colonialism of the 19th century. Two opposing superpowers might keep each other in check as long as they don't destroy the world, but another similar superpower might just add to the existing problems of the world. Even if there are some potential benefits to this, someone's gotta argue the opposition and this is apparently over the heads of gwbush2004 and saver.

That would be like the empires of old, like Roman, Ottoman, etc. That's always a bad sign. The USA dynasty will be destroyed. Maybe not in our lifetime, but soon. And we spent 233 years being free from European rule. Nobody wants to go back to before 1776 and have the USE taking over our former states. :(

Also, what would happen if someone who wanted to force European Culture upon the world, as they had been doing quite actively until a few decades ago, got into power there?
I'm European, and I'm not really aware of this, but I'd class the US as the country currently most likely to want to foist it's way of life on other countries. I perceive the tone of your post as feeling threatened that the US will lose it's hegemony as world superpower; I don't think you need to worry too much about Europe, I can't see a situation where Europe suddenly decides it wants the US to become subordinate to it- by recent actions, the US has shown it's prepared to act unilaterally, anyway. Problems might start if the US try to increase their influence in countries neighbouring the EU, but I can't see them descending into a Europe vs US war. Hey, you never know, if you keep us sweet, we may form a larger alliance against a superpower you should be far more concerned about, i.e. China.

I really hate to be taking the conservative side, but power tends to corrupt. The USA has too much power, which is a big part of the reason why it does the things it shouldn't do. I don't see any reason why Europe might not start doing the same thing with the same sort of power. I don't think most Europeans want to be Imperialist, but i don't think most Americans want that either. I don't see any reason why what happened here over the last decade couldn''t happen in Europe - except possibly less religious fanaticism. I think it might be a much better idea for the USA to become more like the EU than the EU to become more like the USA. Of course i havenn't really studied the subject enough to be completely sure of it. I just think that as bad as having one superpower is, having two is worse.

Mainland Europe is Conservative?
Our media is constantly telling us that Europe is socialist and secular!

I'd call it conservative (with a small 'c'), implying a resistance to change rather than right-wing ideology.  I think that's pretty much what Alcoholica was saying


I really hate to be taking the conservative side, but power tends to corrupt. The USA has too much power, which is a big part of the reason why it does the things it shouldn't do. I don't see any reason why Europe might not start doing the same thing with the same sort of power. I don't think most Europeans want to be Imperialist, but i don't think most Americans want that either. I don't see any reason why what happened here over the last decade couldn''t happen in Europe - except possibly less religious fanaticism. I think it might be a much better idea for the USA to become more like the EU than the EU to become more like the USA. Of course i havenn't really studied the subject enough to be completely sure of it. I just think that as bad as having one superpower is, having two is worse.

I'd agree with you up to the last sentence: I'm not sure two would be worse... I'm not sure it'd be better, either, though.

I think that Europe would not be a power in the same way as America ijn sofar as there is not the militarist will at large within any countries in Europe that there is in the USA. I'm not sure exactly but I'm pretty certain if we added up all the nukes in the USA and put them up against...well, everyone else put together, you guys wuld still be winning hands down.

Like I've said before, we know what happens when militarism gets out of control, you start getting grandiose ideas about ruling the world (yes, you boy, Hitler, you know who i mean, go see the principal NOW  :D)

I just think that as bad as having one superpower is, having two is worse.


I can't agree with this.  First, let me say that I find the idea of any superpower abhorant.  I think that all nations and all peoples should live under some sembalance of EQUALITY.

That said, I would rather have 2, 3, 4 bullies on the block vieing with each other than one picking on everyone else.

One strategy that a few Latin American countries tried to pursue to overcome their dependance was to "diversify" it.  It usually didn't work (in the 19th and early 20th Centuries) because the hegemon stopped it (as in Mexico and Chile), but in this era og globalization, who knows?

what if the bullies throw bombs at each other and blow up the block? Or they could form an alliance to concentrate on picking on the little people. The threat of europeans joining together in order to fight imperialism might be a good way to get people to vote for a reasonable government, but i think an actual confrontation is a bad thing. Especially with an administration that seems to like picking fights.

what if the bullies throw bombs at each other and blow up the block? Or they could form an alliance to concentrate on picking on the little people. The threat of europeans joining together in order to fight imperialism might be a good way to get people to vote for a reasonable government, but i think an actual confrontation is a bad thing. Especially with an administration that seems to like picking fights.


Theoretically true enough, but do you really think evan Bush and his lackies could muster support for an invasion of Europe?

probably not... it hasn't been done since the invention of nuclear weapons and hopefully never will be. I don't think my question about whether this would include eastern Europe has been answered. And what about the diversity of languages?

I think that Europe would not be a power in the same way as America ijn sofar as there is not the militarist will at large within any countries in Europe that there is in the USA. I'm not sure exactly but I'm pretty certain if we added up all the nukes in the USA and put them up against...well, everyone else put together, you guys wuld still be winning hands down.

Like I've said before, we know what happens when militarism gets out of control, you start getting grandiose ideas about ruling the world (yes, you boy, Hitler, you know who i mean, go see the principal NOW  :D)

In a nuclear war, everybody loses.
The Cold War is only over insofar as communism was made to look like an azz.  There are still hundreds of nukes aimed at U.S. cities and hundreds aimed from the U.S. at Russian/Chinese cities.  It's not just cities either.  There are all kinds of other targets, including industrial and nuclear plants.  Just because there is no "USSR" doesn't mean half of all humanity cannot be destroyed in under 72 hours (with the majority of the other half dying in the next six months after atomic conflict).  Perhaps the military contractors find it more profitable to build new war machines, so the Pentagon neglects maintenance of the old monitoring systems.  Perhaps, then, equipment malfunctions and indicates a nuclear missile is headed for Washington.  Perhaps the boys in control don't figure it out in time, and the President presses the red button.  Ooops! It's all over for us.  Now, over in Russia, they've got missile silos guarded by drunken army majors who haven't been paid in three months.  Think of the opportunities for error there!

I recommend Dr. Helen Caldicott as an authority on these matters:
http://www.helencaldicott.com/

The legislative and judicial branches of the U.S. government don't get to set the national agenda.  That honor goes to the executive branch and the shadow dictatorship known as the National Security State.  While conservatives p*ss and moan about "judicial activism" they continue to sell our liberties to the CIA, the NSA (National Security Agency), FBI surveillance, and the Pentagon's fascist priorities.  The National Security State is a key component of the military-industrial complex.

Hi Ethan - to answer your question, Yes hopefully that would include Eastern Europe so that it would bring the countries that are currently floundering since the end of the USSR into a community structure. This would be a good thing and I think would increase world stability and - hopefully - provide more controls for all that military hardware still hanging around in the old Soviet states.

Also I think one major reason that what you have experienced in the USA would not happen in Europe is that it already has happened many times in the past; we've had our empires and frankly we made a mess of them because empires can never work long term and hurt the rulers and the ruled. We've also had our terrible wars both internal and cross border.

When Oklahoma and then 9/11 happened in the States, they were your two worst outrages since Pearl Harbour. Mainland USA had until then been a fortress that had never suffered invasion, had your cities blown to dust and your civilians targetted directly by an alien enemy. For myself and my friends in the UK, following 9/11, we were impressed by the level of shock and outrage that the American people showed. For us, having grown up with parents who lived through the bombing raids of the Nazis and told us family and friends being wiped out night after night; for us having grown up watching TV news showing the IRA and the Protestant militias bombing and murdering daily on the streets of Britain, I guess we have indeed become slightly desensitized to such things.

My point is that, because we've been through it all we've now rejected and abhor, pretty much wholesale, gratuitous nationalism in Europe. We don't trust leaders, like the Tory Party in the UK, that wave the flag and ask us to rally like good peasants behind Queen/President/Fuhrer and country because the misery and human toll that results is still vivid in our collective consciousness. As a result we have a much more 'live and let live' philosophy in general that no European government would find easy to defeat with rhetoric.

To use an analogy, Europe is like a slow, old Lion that, while retaining some of its past majesty does not feel threatened when a lion cub nips around its tail. The USA is like a proud, stoing young lion still defining its territory and position in the pride that still gets jumpy when an animal its never come across before comes to close.That animal is for the USA the terrorist threat and I worry that the USA is now rife with fear and nightmares that, while having some basis in truth, are not as big and scary as some within the political establishment would like you to believe.