I'd say the early 90s.

I thought it was optional anyway  ;) but all joking aside, we feel in the UK that our education system started to deteriorate in the mid 80s and has only in the last 2-3 years seen a steady improvement. The problem was a move away from exam based testing towards coursework based marking which led to, well, wholesale cheating and plagiarism Whats the situation with you guys in the USA ?

Whats the situation with you guys in the USA ?


Depends on what state.  The problem is the fact that the textbooks are almost all the same, so since California and Texas as the biggest customers of school text books, almost every book reads like it was written for the people in those states.

Each state is different in school funding, what they teach, school hours, lunchs, recess....so it's impossible to speak for the entire US.

It must be hard for a country the size of the USA with the federal state system of partially devolved government to actually set up a unified education policy where a qualification achieved in, say, Iowa was viewed as being equal to one from New England and that either would have legitimacy in Texas if, what you say is true, and there are diffferent slants and emphases given from state to state (certainly up to college level anyway). We have the national curriculum in the Uk which was brought in by the tories and continued by labour and, while its goals may be laudable - to provide a level playing field for all high school students actoss the country - it does seem that all it has done is cause more pressure upon schools and teachers. I'm not sure what the answer is to be honest but I would be happier if we had less religious schools and all schools were state run while retaining a certain meritocratic system that recognises students gifts in specific areas of study and ability whether it be the arts, sciences or sport.

I'm happy anyway as yesterday Wales beat France in the 6 nations rugby and with only Scotland to play in a few weeks it looks like I'll be getting up early in Texas on 19th March when I'm at SXSW to find a TV to watch the Championship decider against Ireland.

It must be hard for a country the size of the USA with the federal state system

Don't attack our federal-state thing.  I like the idea of being able to move if my state passes a law I don't like.  And God knows the last thing we need in the US is a bigger central government.  I say let the states handle things the way they want.

State government keeps government local and not far away in Washington DC.

That is a tough question to answer because I was not involved in the school system all that time to compare. I personally know about late 70s/early 80s from a student stand-point. Was my education adequate? That is also a tough question to answer because as a kid, I moved from school, to school, to school. Some schools were a bit behind others, while others were ahead. As a result, I missed out on some things (just ask Carlos  ;)) I went back into the classroom in the late 90s-this time from a teacher stand-point and I couldn't believe what/how things were being taught. I once subbed for a 7/8th grade English class and they were reading MacBeth, only it wasn't MacBeth by William Shakespeare, it was basically MacBeth for Dummies. I don't know if that was the teacher, school, or district but the results were the same-I was appalled. I think somewhere along the way, the education system in this country has declined and as a result, our children are being short-changed.




Cat

  The 3 different school systems I went to were basically on the same level.  I felt like I received a good education, although it could of been much better if I had applied myself more.

But I hear all the time about our seriously failing and money/staff deprived school systems in Detroit.  It sounds really bad for the next generation.

   The 3 different school systems I went to were basically on the same level.  I felt like I received a good education, although it could of (its either could've  or could have, so you obviously learned very little grammar)   been much better if I had applied myself more.

But I hear all the time about our seriously failing and money/staff deprived school systems in Detroit.  It sounds really bad for the next generation.



I couldn't vote on this one, but clearly, education in this country has fallen WAY behind.  Teaching college freshmen US history has become more and more frustrating because they know less and less of the very basic stuff.  I don't demand memorization of names and dates, but they often don't have a clue as to when, and in what order things happened.  It really is pathetic, and disgraceful.

I think there has been a steady erosion since the 70's.  It is frustrating to have to explain that Panama is
not a state,  Canada is to the north. ???

I couldn't vote on this one, but clearly, education in this country has fallen WAY behind.  Teaching college freshmen US history has become more and more frustrating because they know less and less of the very basic stuff.  I don't demand memorization of names and dates, but they often don't have a clue as to when, and in what order things happened.  It really is pathetic, and disgraceful.



          I'll be the first to admit that I slept during english class... My favorite subject was always science.  I shall try to type correctly.  ( I suppose it's in your nature to correct mistakes ;) )

Maybe it's not as bad as we think.  Compared with the 50's, 60's, and 70's reading scores are up across the nation.  But math scores are down across the nation as well.  Go figure.

higher scores might just mean easier tests. I looked at the eight grade final exam for Kansas in 1895 earlier today... i doubt that anyone on this board would do very well on that one.

Well, I suppose it depends on one's standards. I personally think that the American publish education system has always been mediocre as far as western countries are concerned. I received an entirely public education and I can tell you that if you don't go in with a little something extra (a lagniappe, if you will) you probably won't be coming out with one.

I said mid-to-late 80s, although it's never been perfect. In the past black people got crappy schools and children were whipped for disobedience.  I say mid-to-late 80s because of DARE and the like (I don't know when DARE premiered) and school became more about political correctness and awareness than school stuff.

On the other hand, school has always been about making kids slaves to business.  I think schools should be required to teach kids about how money works. 

I started elementary school in 1995, but I was in and out of it.  I'm sure parents complained about the material kids were learning then as well as now.

My $0.02 worth.

-FHF  ;)

P.S. I'm back at the politics board!  :)  I'm limiting myself to three new topics a day though.

I recently heard someone describe America as the only place in the world where education is mandatory and learning is optional.  It would be funny if there weren't so much truth to it.

But I think the reality's always been that the public education system has always had a number of excellent schools co-existing with a number of terrible schools, often within the same state. 

If you live in a poor school district with a lot unruly and/or indifferent students and burnt-out teachers, God bless you.  If you're a standout student, you might be lucky enough to not only get into private school but also get enough financial aid to be able to afford it.  But if you're just the run-of the mill average student, you're very likely screwed.

I think there has been a steady erosion since the 70's.  It is frustrating to have to explain that Panama is
not a state,  Canada is to the north. ???


Panama isn't a state?  Welllll, not technically of course  ;).

           I'll be the first to admit that I slept during english class... My favorite subject was always science.  I shall try to type correctly.  ( I suppose it's in your nature to correct mistakes ;) )


Sorry.  Hope I disn't offend, that was not my intent.  That particular error is one of my pet peves though, and it is very common where I teach.  I too remember English grammer classes as BORING.  Lit on the other hand was often interesting, even when the teacher (as in my Literary Masterpieces class in college) was so unimaginative as to try to use western symbolism to understand references to Bhuddism.

Maybe it's not as bad as we think.  Compared with the 50's, 60's, and 70's reading scores are up across the nation.  But math scores are down across the nation as well.  Go figure.


Scores, smores.  From what I see, evan among upper class students, reading comprehension is much lower than I would like to see.  I am encouraged, though, that a bipartisan group of governors have pledged to work toward higher standards and more rigor in high schools.  On this one we might evan agree (did I type that?  :))

I think that our schools suffer from 3 major problems.  First, I think there is too much emphasis on promoting self esteem.  If the kids can't do the word, try harder to teach them, but don't just pass them.  Second, lots of teachers are asked to teach subjects they know little or nothing about beyond the school board approved text, so all they can do is repeat what it said, and what the kids (presumably) already read, which I always found to be a real bore.  And third, too many parants abdicate their own responsibility to help the schools.  In both elementrary and high school, for example, my parants insisted on knowing my homework assignments and reviewing them before I turned them in.  They took an active part in my education.  They were less attentive during college, but I was paying for a good part of it, so I guess they figured (1) I was invested and (2) I was adult enough to know the benefits.  They were right in both cases.  That's my 2 cents in a nut shell.

I don't think you have to worry much about DC correcting your spelling ;) :D


You gut dat rigth Mom  ;)

I think that our schools suffer from 3 major problems.  First, I think there is too much emphasis on promoting self esteem.  If the kids can't do the word, try harder to teach them, but don't just pass them.



I don't think you can put too much emphasis on promoting a child's self-esteem and sense of ability to learn.  But I agree that giving out grades that haven't been earned is the wrong way to go.  I think, though, that unfortunately, too many schools suffer the burden of indifferent parents.  If a kid is raised into a home that does not value education, he/she has NO CHANCE.  Period.  There is NOTHING the school system can do.

Sorry.  Hope I disn't offend, that was not my intent.  That particular error is one of my pet peves though, and it is very common where I teach.  I too remember English grammer classes as BORING.  Lit on the other hand was often interesting, even when the teacher (as in my Literary Masterpieces class in college) was so unimaginative as to try to use western symbolism to understand references to Bhuddism.



    Of course I was not offended, I actually appreciate the correction.  The correct way is always best :)

Don't attack our federal-state thing.  I like the idea of being able to move if my state passes a law I don't like.  And God knows the last thing we need in the US is a bigger central government.  I say let the states handle things the way they want.

State government keeps government local and not far away in Washington DC.

UKV wasn't "attacking," he was commenting, and he is correct.  The federal administration of education versus state and local administration is cause for lots of bureaucratic headaches...and unfunded mandates such as "No Child Left Behind."
The REAL problem with American education is property tax-based funding.  This causes tremendous inequalities in the public school systems between wealthy and poor communities.  
Now conservatives love to point out how high per-pupil expenditures are in very poor cities such as Washington D.C.  
Beyond the administrative problems in places like D.C., there is also a much higher degree of stress among children, worse physical health due to impoverished home lives, and much lower morale than in wealthier cities.  When a child is stressed by domestic instability and/or violence he/she will typically have difficulty with concentration, cognition, and retention.  Factors such as poor nutrition and health problems only add to these deficits.  You can aggravate the problems of poor school districts with charter schools, but all the "school choice" in the world isn't going to prime the poor and desperate to receive quality education.

The REAL REAL problem with American public education is a result of yawning gap betwen the haves and the have-nots.

As for academic standards, I would say the early '70s was the time when they really started to nosedive.  The whole culture changed in the 1960s, some for better and some for worse.  That is true of education.  Corporal punishment, classroom prayers, the dunce cap, and ethnocentric dead-white-male curricula had to go.
American education has gained a more socially progressive outlook in the last thirty years.  I'm grateful for that.  However, with the loss of those old ways came loss of academic rigor and discipline.  This is bad.

Here is another problem.  Parents universally believe their kids should go to college.  Thus we have millions of kids in the college preparatory track who have NO interest in academics.  It is very difficult in most fields to get by with just a high school education.  I think twelve years of book-learning ought to be plenty to go out and make a living.  Anyway, now that so many students receive baccalauriate degrees, the job market just makes advanced degrees more and more desirable.  You can't win.

America is a plutocracy, thus there is the elite version of everything for the rich.  We really don't need that many people to run the government and run the corporations (that don't want to employ Americans if they can help it), so Andover, Exeter, St. Pauls, and Groton prep schools will continue to supply the Ivy League colleges with our future leaders from the American Brahmin class.  Even if the Brahmin is a total dope like Dubya!

Thanks Max and sorry GW but I wasn't 'attacking'in any way your state legislation over education except in so far as if you are attempting to set 'national' standards (i.e. across all states) then you can not achieve this if every state defines its own standards, do you see what I'm getting at ? Its not to say that any individual state is right or wrong but simply that any standard set will only be valiid within the paradigm that agrees to that standard (i.e. the individual state legistalure).

My feeling is, that if you are to have a free and fair market place in terms of careers, etc. then you should be able to judge everyone within your society against an agreed yardstick. I mean, if a student in Ohio happens to work hard and achieve's a B average within a system that places emphasis on traditional skills such as numeracy and literacy goes up against someone who achieved straight A's in a system in say California wherein spelling, numeracy, grammar and history where considered "like totally heavy dude" and the ability to be a freespirit and understand buddhism are valued. If you look at the resume on paper the guy with the A grades wins (ayeb he should, depends on the job !).

What I'm saying in a nutshell is - standards have to be common across the board and therefore need to be a national phenomenon and NOT the preserve of the individual state if the USA is to be truly a nation and not a feceration of states. I'm not saying that individual states may not work towards delivering those standards better than the next state thereby creating an aspirational spiral towards the failing states may aspire. I'm just saying that you need to have an agreed basic standard if you are to be truly equitable to the collective youth of your country. What I was also saying is that - it's a hard goal to sat as even in a small country like the UK it causes problems and is difficult to attain and I was simply saying that I 'understand' the difficulties that lie in achieving in across a hige continet like the USA. It doesn't mean that it is wrong to strive for this goal.

I also thin kthat shakepseare and Dickens should be an essential part of any human being development along with Mark Twain, John Steinbeck and John Keats.Spot the English Lit Grad but hey, in the beauty of our words do we raise ourselves above the beasts and through the beauty of our actions do we tend to both them and us.

Just had a great night out with a great live band so in a good mood - life is good ! :)

That's a very astute observation UKV.  Bush's bogus "No Child Left Behind" legislation doesn't do a thing to address the situation.
The Republican party has been chanting "states rights" and "local control" for forty years...more actually.  Yet Reagan couldn't wait to blackmail the states in the '80s with retraction of their federal highway funds should they fail to comply with a state drinking age of 21!
Now Bush is running around out there talking about educational standards, like wtf does he care?  So they come up with this harebrained scheme whereby ALL students in any given school would have to pass federally issued tests.  No money for these schools to actually improve anything, just make the poorer.  Those kids deserve it anyway for being born on that side of town.
::)

That's a very astute observation UKV.  Bush's bogus "No Child Left Behind" legislation doesn't do a thing to address the situation.
The Republican party has been chanting "states rights" and "local control" for forty years...more actually.  Yet Reagan couldn't wait to blackmail the states in the '80s with retraction of their federal highway funds should they fail to comply with a state drinking age of 21!



No argument there.  Reagan should have left them alone, but at the same time the dam* US Supreme Court shouldn't have ruled in favor of what Reagan was doing by threatening 5% of federal highway funds if a state didn't make the age for alcohol at least 21.

Let's not get started on No Child Left Behind, which is a great program that that real right-wing nutjob Edward Kennedy authored.

I don't think you can put too much emphasis on promoting a child's self-esteem and sense of ability to learn.  But I agree that giving out grades that haven't been earned is the wrong way to go. 

I think children quickly learn when praise is genuine and when it's not.  If you praise (and award marks) for absolutely everything then a child learns not to strive to be the best it can because you are clearly very happy with its current level of achievement.


I think, though, that unfortunately, too many schools suffer the burden of indifferent parents. If a kid is raised into a home that does not value education, he/she has NO CHANCE. Period. There is NOTHING the school system can do.


Why do you (or anyone else) think this change happened?  Or has there always been parents who didn't support their children at school and for some reason we suddenly notice that this is happening.  My parents always showed an interest in what we were doing at school and were always available to help with homework and projects.  I now try to carry this on with my daughter (and my son at nursery).  But this doesn't seem to be the case with some of her friends even though I know some of them had that sort of support at school because I went to school with them.  What made the change into believing that education was solely the preserve of the teachers?

higher scores might just mean easier tests. I looked at the eight grade final exam for Kansas in 1895 earlier today... i doubt that anyone on this board would do very well on that one.

I think that's the same one I saw.  I would have failed it.  I wish I still had it I would post it.
Even when my dad was in school he had to be able to draw on a map of the world, 7 rivers in each country.  My geography is terrible, I would be lucky to get 7 in the US. 

Why do you (or anyone else) think this change happened?  Or has there always been parents who didn't support their children at school and for some reason we suddenly notice that this is happening.



Well, it seems that in our society, not nearly as much value is placed on intellect as on wealth and celebrity.  You don't need to be interested in ideas to make a killing on Wall Street, you don't need to have intellectual curiosity to run a major corporation.  Who wants to grow up to be a historian or a university professor, or a research scientist these days?  Well, maybe if you have a shot at writing a book that'll get you on Oprah...

Good points Lee.  Wealth (and the accumulation of wealth) seems to be the driving force for many people nowadays and science and research in general is v poorly paid which influences some peoples choices.

You gut dat rigth Mom  ;)




Bad spellers of the world untie!  ;) :D ;D





Cat

Let's not get started on No Child Left Behind, which is a great program that that real right-wing nutjob Edward Kennedy authored.


Let's not. Seeing that you are not an educator (like me), administrator, or in an educational position, you are not entitled to say this program is great b/c your opinion would be based on what you've heard, not what you've experienced or know as a result of being in the position.

Tanya

Adding to what Lee O'Shea said, I think the fact that in many households, both parents work nowdays.  Growing up, I can only think of 2 friends whose parents both worked fulltime and only 1 whose mom worked part-time.  When both parents have worked all day, the last thing they want to do is come home and work on homework with the kids (well, many of them). 

We both work full time but still try to find the time.  The mums I was thinking of either only work part time or don't go out to work at all.  As a child my mum worked part time as did most of my friends' mums.



Add to that the amount of homework that comes home now (even some in kindergarten have it every day) compared to when we were growing up (I don't remember having it regularly until age 11-12) and I think therein lies the problem.


My daughter brings home books for us to listen to her reading and she has homework with her French lesson (mainly colouring in a picture as far as I can tell).  This is what I was doing at her age (6).  I wouldn't expect much more regular homework than this until Secondary school.  However I also try and support the topic she is covering at school by finding or helping her to find relevant pieces of interest.

I just think that it's part of being a parent to help your child develop as much as you can.

Let's not. Seeing that you are not an educator (like me), administrator, or in an educational position, you are not entitled to say this program is great b/c your opinion would be based on what you've heard, not what you've experienced or know as a result of being in the position.

Tanya




Touche




Cat

Adding to what Lee O'Shea said, I think the fact that in many households, both parents work nowdays.  Growing up, I can only think of 2 friends whose parents both worked fulltime and only 1 whose mom worked part-time.  When both parents have worked all day, the last thing they want to do is come home and work on homework with the kids (well, many of them).

See, to me that's a problem.  People have worked hard all day and the last thing they want to do is help their kids with their homework and such?  Excuse me?  Did someone IMPOSE these kids on these parents?

I decided long ago that if I can't afford to educate my child(ren) either in an excellent private institution, or at home then I simply won't have any.

IMO, there is waaaay too much emphasis being put on memorizing facts for testing purposes and not enough on actual comprehension of those facts.  I think it's more important to know WHY or HOW something happened/s, not just that it did/does.


I agree.  Much too much emphasis on tests for Elem and Sec. school, and on rote learning.  Kids do need to learn "the facts, mam"  to some extent, and how and where to find them.  But more importantly, they need to learn how to analyze facts, put them together to make a cogent and persuasive argument.  Therefore they need to understand various theories of causality.  Memorizing facts for no other reason than to regurgitate them on a test is a waste of both time and  gray matter, both Sherlock holmes and Albert Einstien recognized that (Einstien said "imagination is better than knowledge").  After all, we keep the facts in mass storage devices, known as BOOKS.


I think children quickly learn when praise is genuine and when it's not. If you praise (and award marks) for absolutely everything then a child learns not to strive to be the best it can because you are clearly very happy with its current level of achievement.



Many years ago there was an experiment done that consisted of "messing" with a 1st grade teacher's evaluation of her class.  She said Johnny was very bright, and a fast learner, while Bob was a dullard and a problem.  The names were changed on the report (Johnny was dull, Bob was bright).  Guess what.  They both lived up (or down) to the expectations created by those reports in the second grade.


Well, it seems that in our society, not nearly as much value is placed on intellect as on wealth and celebrity. You don't need to be interested in ideas to make a killing on Wall Street, you don't need to have intellectual curiosity to run a major corporation. Who wants to grow up to be a historian or a university professor, or a research scientist these days? Well, maybe if you have a shot at writing a book that'll get you on Oprah...


This also is part of the problem.  We USians are cursed with living in one of the most anti-intellectual societies in the western world, and have been for generations.  Do the images of the "egg head" and the "absent minded professor" ring a bell?  We have always been more interested in making a buck than making a poem.