I'm a Lib so I'm glad it is, but why is it?  It seems like people ranting about how crappy today is would be Conservative since they're, supposedly, traditional. 

Why is this board so liberal?


Because it is full of the younger generation.

Let's not get started on what I have to say about the youth movement.

i don't see why conservatives would have a right to be complaining considering the conservatism of current American government. I think part of thee reason why there aren't too many people arguing the conservative side is there's no option to turn down the mic of the liberals here.

i don't see why conservatives would have a right to be complaining considering the conservatism of current American government. I think part of thee reason why there aren't too many people arguing the conservative side is there's no option to turn down the mic of the liberals here.


That's true.  Although I've ran polls and Liberals dominate. 

Conservatives complain Dems are whiners, but they would be too if they were losing the race!

i think there are more older (over 30) than younger people here. On the other hand, one of the most persistent advocates for conservatism recently is fourteen years old

i think there are more older (over 30) than younger people here. On the other hand, one of the most persistent advocates for conservatism recently is fourteen years old


Wouldn't that mean more Conservatives than Libs?  Or is it different now?

several of the most consistent left-wing posters - don carlos, catwoman, maxwell smart, chuckyg, and philbo are all over 30 unless they've lied about their ages so the liberals are not necessarily young people.

several of the most consistent left-wing posters - don carlos, catwoman, maxwell smart, chuckyg, and philbo are all over 30 unless they've lied about their ages so the liberals are not necessarily young people.


What side are you on?  I've said I think today's kids are more Conservative than 90s or even 80s kids.

Who's the 14-year old conservative? I wanna know who you think it is.

I agree FHF, i've noticed more conservatism among my generation then you'd ever see out of Gen X'ers, or even older Gen Y'ers.

Who's the 14-year old conservative? I wanna know who you think it is.


I think it's PimpSteelersFan.

among my generation

What generation is that?

Who's the 14-year old conservative? I wanna know who you think it is.


I'm not sure, but I think of you as a lib.  I'm about the only Liberal coin collector.
I agree FHF, i've noticed more conservatism among my generation then you'd ever see out of Gen X'ers, or even older Gen Y'ers.


Towards the end of the Bush election the kids at my brother's school were defending Bush!  It was sickening!  :P

What generation is that?


He mean's Gen Y, him being 19 :)

I think it's PimpSteelersFan.

you are correct

What generation is that?


i believe the ones who are almost college age

Do I offend? I am sorry.  My sarcasm was poorly termed.
:-[


Huh?

Huh?

Oh, nothin.'  On the wrong thread, dude.

Because there are a lot of us out there!

Was it the Busey thread Max?  I'm over that, Dude explained it to me. :)

Well I'm kinda new to this board and many of my friends think I'm quite a right wing reactionary but when I arrived at this board I felt as if I should have a copy of Marx's treatise on the conditions of the working classes in London on my desk below a picture of Che Guevara. ;D

In the past I have been a card carrying member of the British Labour Party and I have despised the Conservative Party since I was old enough to watch them close down the mining industry in my own country - Wales - and send the army and police in to batter and repress the ordinary workers who were fighting for their very livelihoods.

And yet, as I have grown older I have not changed my belief in a liberal society based upon certain tenets which provide education, health care, social security and the basic level of human needs for every member of society. I am happy to pay tax to the government to provide these things and more. I am happy to pay local taxes to ensure that the streets and roads are kept well lit and clean. I am happy that I live in a society that allows me all the personal freedoms I require which do not include the need to carry or own a gun. I am happy to live in a society that is sceptical of the call of government to rally around any flag. I am happy to live in a country that is tolerant of alternative lifestyles whatever they may be. I am extremely happy to live in a society that has managed to maintain and even develop a moral basis enshrined in law that is now secular and not riddled with fundamental religious principles.

However I am not smug about any of this and that is why I take an interest in the debates on forums such as this and this is why I believe that this board has so many liberals posting. It is the liberals who act as the canaries down the mineshaft and the louder we start squawking then the more poisonous gas is coming at us from the devil's butt-crack.

We should start worrying when the liberals stop posting... can anyone smell gas or is it just me ???  ;)

Well I'm kinda new to this board and many of my friends think I'm quite a right wing reactionary but when I arrived at this board I felt as if I should have a copy of Marx's treatise on the conditions of the working classes in London on my desk below a picture of Che Guevara. ;D

In the past I have been a card carrying member of the British Labour Party and I have despised the Conservative Party since I was old enough to watch them close down the mining industry in my own country - Wales - and send the army and police in to batter and repress the ordinary workers who were fighting for their very livelihoods.

And yet, as I have grown older I have not changed my belief in a liberal society based upon certain tenets which provide education, health care, social security and the basic level of human needs for every member of society. I am happy to pay tax to the government to provide these things and more. I am happy to pay local taxes to ensure that the streets and roads are kept well lit and clean. I am happy that I live in a society that allows me all the personal freedoms I require which do not include the need to carry or own a gun. I am happy to live in a society that is sceptical of the call of government to rally around any flag. I am happy to live in a country that is tolerant of alternative lifestyles whatever they may be. I am extremely happy to live in a society that has managed to maintain and even develop a moral basis enshrined in law that is now secular and not riddled with fundamental religious principles.

However I am not smug about any of this and that is why I take an interest in the debates on forums such as this and this is why I believe that this board has so many liberals posting. It is the liberals who act as the canaries down the mineshaft and the louder we start squawking then the more poisonous gas is coming at us from the devil's butt-crack.

We should start worrying when the liberals stop posting... can anyone smell gas or is it just me ???  ;)




I'm not saying I have a problem with it, I'm just surprised (in a good way).  This seems like it would be conservative-dominated.

Hey Full House - sorry its late over here in the UK and I'm getting too prosaic. I think all I was trying to say is the reason so many liberals are posting is because they have so much to post about.  ;)

Hey Full House - sorry its late over here in the UK and I'm getting too prosaic. I think all I was trying to say is the reason so many liberals are posting is because they have so much to post about. ;)


It's okay man :)  It's 10 here in Oregon ... what's it there? 6 in the morn?

Yup - its almost time for Zzzzzzzzzzzzz and yup the Beastie Boys - best rap band ever probably. Funniest ever has to be the GLC - check out www.youknowsit.co.uk

In the past I have been a card carrying member of the British Labour Party and I have despised the Conservative Party since I was old enough to watch them close down the mining industry in my own country - Wales - and send the army and police in to batter and repress the ordinary workers who were fighting for their very livelihoods.






>:(

Long live Cymru!

*is of Welsh descent*

UKVisitor are you familiar with Plaid Cymru?

I am happy that I live in a society that allows me all the personal freedoms I require which do not include the need to carry or own a gun.

How the hell was that said in one sentence!?  ???

I love my personal freedoms...and am glad another freedom is banned.  ::)

this board is liberal because it's a site that deals with pop culture and people who love pop culture are usually liberal. go to a message forum about the NRA and you'll see an overwhelming majority of posters who are conservative.

I'm a Lib so I'm glad it is, but why is it?  It seems like people ranting about how crappy today is would be Conservative since they're, supposedly, traditional.   


Actually, a lot of "Conservative" people like me simply stopped comming in here anymore.  While I love posting in here, it is far to hostile for my taste.  When the most common type of response is simply a variation of "you are stupid/racist/ignorant/sexist, it kinda kills the desire to participate in "debate".

Of course, the last 2 posts I made here were censored out, so it would not surprise me if this was treated the same.

this board is liberal because it's a site that deals with pop culture and people who love pop culture are usually liberal. go to a message forum about the NRA and you'll see an overwhelming majority of posters who are conservative.


Oh yes, like that evil Charlton Heaston.

Of course, forget the fact that in the 1960's and 1970's, he made some of the most powerful movies about racism, and was strongly opposed to it.

Yup - its almost time for Zzzzzzzzzzzzz and yup the Beastie Boys - best rap band ever probably. Funniest ever has to be the GLC - check out www.youknowsit.co.uk

Chavtastic chain! Can't be bad...are you from the 'port yourself, UK Visitor? I grew up in West Wales myself. I must admit, I find the use of 'liberal' and 'conservative' a bit confusing on this board, as the definitions are different to those in the UK...

Question to anyone: is it the case that in the US, a 'conservative' is a right-winger (or 'right whinger', in some cases  ;)), and that a liberal is anyone who's not?

Actually, a lot of "Conservative" people like me simply stopped comming in here anymore.  While I love posting in here, it is far to hostile for my taste.  When the most common type of response is simply a variation of "you are stupid/racist/ignorant/sexist, it kinda kills the desire to participate in "debate".

Of course, the last 2 posts I made here were censored out, so it would not surprise me if this was treated the same.

Day in day out we liberals in America face a fascist elite and their working class minions.  This movement has all the kindness of a wolverine.  Sometimes we need to blow off steam.
Talk about hostile, the "conservatives" are hostile to our continuing existence as a species.  That's nothing compared to a few rhetorical jabs on a message board!
::)

 I'm about the only Liberal coin collector.



UM...



Cat

Hi guys, from Cardiff (the 'Diff) just down the road from the 'Port (Newport) and glad you like the Goldie Looking Chain guys.

Just a quick explanation for GW - when I talk of freedoms those freedoms do NOT include the freedom to carry a weapon on my person for the singular purpose of killing another human being. Simlarly I do not require the freedom to rape, steal, burgle, murder or otherwise. The freedom to carry guns may well be enshrined inyour constitution but like many laws it is of its time. In the UK we have laws still on th ebooks that state it is okay to shoot a Welshman within the city limits of the town of Shrewsbury as long as it after 10pm at night and as long as you use a longbow and not a crossbow. Not sure if this still applies but I'm very careful about walking around that town at night  ;D

I think the gun law debate has to be contextualised with the time it was enacted which was a time of revolution in the USA when your country was being born; it was a time of great upheaval and lawlessness with very little federal control. In the UK we have never had a gun culture and in recent decades as a result of assorted occasional crazies going loco with guns - Hungerford, Dunblane - there have been even greater controls brought upon those who wish to own and use guns. Strangely we don't have a massive problem with gun related incidents and, talking about another thread, it is highly unlikely that a 12 year old would ever get there hands on a gun and shoot someone just because they wouldn't switch off their headlights. Because of our laws banning firearms in most cases, we don't have to enter into the terrible debates that you guys have in the USA regarding children shooting classmates, etc.

If someone could demonstrate to me how much safer your society os because of the freedom to bear arms then I would rethink my beliefs but so far I have only heard to the contrary.

Anyway I'm off to avoid arrows in Shrewsbury.... ;)

UM...



Cat


Make that two :) 

Because it is full of the younger generation.

Let's not get started on what I have to say about the youth movement.



Younger generation?  I'm more than 10 years your senior, Cat is +/_ your age, my 84 year old father (who supported Barry Goldwater), my 74 year old mother-in -law (who used to vote republican), and lots more people your age and older have come to recognize that the conservative movement (conspiracy?) that you support is nothing less than an attack on the entire social contract that created the middle class and this nation's prosperity during the post WWII period.  They have all abandoned your party and your president.  In fact, it was my father who came up with "Lil' Georgie" (he always like Al Capp).  But I hope you are right, and the "youth movement" (whatever that is) will rise up and throw your neo-facist friends out of government.

Well I'm kinda new to this board and many of my friends think I'm quite a right wing reactionary but when I arrived at this board I felt as if I should have a copy of Marx's treatise on the conditions of the working classes in London on my desk below a picture of Che Guevara. ;D

In the past I have been a card carrying member of the British Labour Party and I have despised the Conservative Party since I was old enough to watch them close down the mining industry in my own country - Wales - and send the army and police in to batter and repress the ordinary workers who were fighting for their very livelihoods.

And yet, as I have grown older I have not changed my belief in a liberal society based upon certain tenets which provide education, health care, social security and the basic level of human needs for every member of society. I am happy to pay tax to the government to provide these things and more. I am happy to pay local taxes to ensure that the streets and roads are kept well lit and clean. I am happy that I live in a society that allows me all the personal freedoms I require which do not include the need to carry or own a gun. I am happy to live in a society that is sceptical of the call of government to rally around any flag. I am happy to live in a country that is tolerant of alternative lifestyles whatever they may be. I am extremely happy to live in a society that has managed to maintain and even develop a moral basis enshrined in law that is now secular and not riddled with fundamental religious principles.

However I am not smug about any of this and that is why I take an interest in the debates on forums such as this and this is why I believe that this board has so many liberals posting. It is the liberals who act as the canaries down the mineshaft and the louder we start squawking then the more poisonous gas is coming at us from the devil's butt-crack.

We should start worrying when the liberals stop posting... can anyone smell gas or is it just me ???  ;)




Great post.  Stick around UK you are a welcome addition.  Your values make much sense, and sucsinctly describe at least my agenda.  To sum up what you said in brief, a humane society always provides for its weakest and most vulnerable members.  Very well said.

How the hell was that said in one sentence!?  ???

I love my personal freedoms...and am glad another freedom is banned.  ::)


You might want to READ MORE CAREFULLY,  He refered to "THE NEED" to own a gun.  I guess (without putting words in his mouth) that he feels safe and secure enough that he doesn't feel the need to be armed to the teeth.

Actually, a lot of "Conservative" people like me simply stopped comming in here anymore.  While I love posting in here, it is far to hostile for my taste.  When the most common type of response is simply a variation of "you are stupid/racist/ignorant/sexist, it kinda kills the desire to participate in "debate".

Of course, the last 2 posts I made here were censored out, so it would not surprise me if this was treated the same.


I personally have always found you to be an honest and throughtful representative of your position, and have said so both publicly and in PM's.  I think you might agree, though, that one at least of your sort of co-ideologs does get a bit annoying at times.  I often find his utter ignorance to be extremely annoying, and his absolute certainty in his illogic and his lack of command of basic facts to be disturbing.  You, on the other hand, often make valid and thought provocing points.  I hope you will keep posting, but I do understand your frustration at times.

Oh yes, like that evil Charlton Heaston.

Of course, forget the fact that in the 1960's and 1970's, he made some of the most powerful movies about racism, and was strongly opposed to it.


Wait a sec.  Charlton Heston is clearly conservative on a number of issues, including gun control.  Not being much of a movie buff, or maybe Heston (as an actor) fan, I'm not familiar with his anti-racist flicks.  Enlighten me.  Seriously.

Chavtastic chain! Can't be bad...are you from the 'port yourself, UK Visitor? I grew up in West Wales myself. I must admit, I find the use of 'liberal' and 'conservative' a bit confusing on this board, as the definitions are different to those in the UK...

Question to anyone: is it the case that in the US, a 'conservative' is a right-winger (or 'right whinger', in some cases  ;)), and that a liberal is anyone who's not?


Good question.  I wouls suggest, from my limited knowledge of British politics, that our "liberal" politicos are closer to your conservatives than to your liberals, and that our conservatives are closer to the neo nazies the Germans are so worried about.

Hi guys, from Cardiff (the 'Diff) just down the road from the 'Port (Newport) and glad you like the Goldie Looking Chain guys.

Just a quick explanation for GW - when I talk of freedoms those freedoms do NOT include the freedom to carry a weapon on my person for the singular purpose of killing another human being. Simlarly I do not require the freedom to rape, steal, burgle, murder or otherwise. The freedom to carry guns may well be enshrined inyour constitution but like many laws it is of its time. In the UK we have laws still on th ebooks that state it is okay to shoot a Welshman within the city limits of the town of Shrewsbury as long as it after 10pm at night and as long as you use a longbow and not a crossbow. Not sure if this still applies but I'm very careful about walking around that town at night  ;D

I think the gun law debate has to be contextualised with the time it was enacted which was a time of revolution in the USA when your country was being born; it was a time of great upheaval and lawlessness with very little federal control. In the UK we have never had a gun culture and in recent decades as a result of assorted occasional crazies going loco with guns - Hungerford, Dunblane - there have been even greater controls brought upon those who wish to own and use guns. Strangely we don't have a massive problem with gun related incidents and, talking about another thread, it is highly unlikely that a 12 year old would ever get there hands on a gun and shoot someone just because they wouldn't switch off their headlights. Because of our laws banning firearms in most cases, we don't have to enter into the terrible debates that you guys have in the USA regarding children shooting classmates, etc.

If someone could demonstrate to me how much safer your society os because of the freedom to bear arms then I would rethink my beliefs but so far I have only heard to the contrary.

Anyway I'm off to avoid arrows in Shrewsbury.... ;)


Again, and I hope you don't mind my calling you "my friend", a very good response. 

I try to be "Liberally Conservative" or "Conservatively Liberal"....i see problems on both sides as well as good things.

I try to be "Liberally Conservative" or "Conservatively Liberal"....i see problems on both sides as well as good things.


Like with Mushroom, you and often disagree about issues, but I do respect your intelligence and your efforts to inform yourself about them.  I respect that independance of mind in both of you, which is why I try to treat your opinions with more respect than I might accord others (who shall remain nameless, but who refuse to answer questions re their posts) on this board.  I would say that I at least would like you to get past the Clinton administration, evan though I agree with some of your grips about it.

Just a quick explanation for GW - when I talk of freedoms those freedoms do NOT include the freedom to carry a weapon on my person for the singular purpose of killing another human being. Simlarly I do not require the freedom to rape, steal, burgle, murder or otherwise. The freedom to carry guns may well be enshrined inyour constitution but like many laws it is of its time. In the UK we have laws still on th ebooks that state it is okay to shoot a Welshman within the city limits of the town of Shrewsbury as long as it after 10pm at night and as long as you use a longbow and not a crossbow. Not sure if this still applies but I'm very careful about walking around that town at night  ;D

I think the gun law debate has to be contextualised with the time it was enacted which was a time of revolution in the USA when your country was being born; it was a time of great upheaval and lawlessness with very little federal control. In the UK we have never had a gun culture and in recent decades as a result of assorted occasional crazies going loco with guns - Hungerford, Dunblane - there have been even greater controls brought upon those who wish to own and use guns. Strangely we don't have a massive problem with gun related incidents and, talking about another thread, it is highly unlikely that a 12 year old would ever get there hands on a gun and shoot someone just because they wouldn't switch off their headlights. Because of our laws banning firearms in most cases, we don't have to enter into the terrible debates that you guys have in the USA regarding children shooting classmates, etc.

If someone could demonstrate to me how much safer your society os because of the freedom to bear arms then I would rethink my beliefs but so far I have only heard to the contrary.



For one, I don't keep firearms because I'm paranoid or afraid.  I keep them soley for hunting.  My .300 for deer, my .22 LR for rabbits, my .410 shotgun also for rabbits, and my .12 gauge shotgun for turkey.

Now then, you need look only at the non-murder crimes in America-Britain.  Great Britain has a higher assult, robbery, and rape rate than America.  Also over half of all break-ins in Britain occur when the owner of the house is at home, where as in America only 12% of home invasions take place while the owner is home.  Now why is that?

Why is it that the city of Kennesaw, Georgia (which I live VERY close to,) saw a huge drop in it's murder rate when it became the first (and still so far only) town in the US to require all adult non-felons to own a gun back in the 1980's?  Why is it that the only place in America where guns are illegal, Washington DC (for obvious reasons, ie senators and the President,) has a murder rate of 8.9 per 100,000 where as the closet city to Washington DC, a city in Virginia (can't recall the exact name,) has a murder rate of only 1.4 per 100,000?

I say guns are a right.

Now then what rights do you have in Great Britain that we in America don't?  You don't allow same-sex "marriages."  You haven't legalized pot.  Both America and Britain have legal abortions.  Yet we in America have a higher level of economic freedom and the right to own firearms.  Makes one wonder.

Wait a sec.  Charlton Heston is clearly conservative on a number of issues, including gun control.  Not being much of a movie buff, or maybe Heston (as an actor) fan, I'm not familiar with his anti-racist flicks.  Enlighten me.  Seriously.


OK, here are the 3 which he very obviously tried to forward a movement which has been captured as "liberal".

1.  Planet Of The Apes.  Charlton loved the book by Pierre Boule (of "Bridge On The River Kwai" fame).  He made this into a political satire on raceism, placing the "white man" as the low rung on the totem pole.  This was not written in the original story, but as one of the driving forced in having it made, this is how he guided it.

2.  Soylent Green.  This is a story which he saw as a way to advance the "green" agenda.  It is very obviously about polution, over population, and the degrading of the value of human life.  Bulldozers used on foor rioters and euthenasia were very negatively dealt with, in addition to "govenrnment coverup", "corporate lies", and "police state".

3.  The Omega Man.  This is based on a book called "I Am Legend".  The story was made before as "The Last Man On Earth" with Vincent Price in the leading role.  It was at his insistance that Rosalind Cash was cast as his love interest.  When he was told that theaters in the South would not show the movie because of his leading lady being Black, he is reported to have said "to hell with them, this is how I want it done!".

Of course, he also stared in Midway, where he overcame his prejudice against Japanese-Americans, and was president of a Union from 1965-1971 (Screen Actors Guild).  During the 1960's, he was a vocal supporter of the Civil Rights movement, even marching alongside Rev. King.  He was a narrator in the 1970 movie "King: A Filmed Record... Montgomery to Memphis".

Mr. Heston is a great example of somebody who is Socially Liberal, and at the same time Christian and Conservative.  But because of his outspoken beliefs in God and guns, he is classified as a "RIght-Wing nut".

Because it is full of the younger generation.

Let's not get started on what I have to say about the youth movement.



Whatcha talkin bout?  I'm 19 and I'm pretty conservative.  True I do hold SOME liberal views, but most would probably label me conservative.....most here anyway.

Whatcha talkin bout?  I'm 19 and I'm pretty conservative.  True I do hold SOME liberal views, but most would probably label me conservative.....most here anyway.


You have the same problem that I do then.  I quite often find that when I am "middle of the road", I get hit from both sides.

I am both liberal and conservative when it comes to social issues.  Welfare is needed, but it should not be a lifetime entitlement.  Kick off the lazy ones and the cheats, and save it for the people who REALLY want to improve their life.  Drugs are evil, and first time offenders should be given treatment.  Traffickers should get VERY stiff penalties.  Repeat offenders should be locked up, as dangers to society.

I agree with some gun control.  There is little need for most people to have an AK-47.  But at the same time, judges often give people a slap on the wrist for gun offenses.  I think that a reasonable waiting period is a good idea (3-7 days), when the time is used for a COMPLETE background check.  Gun owndership is nut just a right, it is also a responsibility and a privlidge.  Irresponsible ownership should be treated harshly, and all future "rights" to gun ownership should be forfit.

Being a veteran, the use of military force should be a last resort.  When taken, it should be quick, decisive, and have a lasting result.  Sending our military off to die for no reason (or a purely political reason) is wrong.  In this, I agree with Teddy Roosevelt.  "Walk softly, and carry a big stick".

I believe that humans are a part of nature.  As such, it is up to us to protect and preserve it.  Harvesting natural resources can be done safely, and with minimal long term impact on the environment.  But we should try to minimize such impact, so future generations can enjoy the beauty that this country offers.

I truely believe that everybody is equal, unless they prove otherwise.  Black, white, red, yelloy, green, blue, male, female, neuter, hermaphrodyte, heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, autosexual, omnisexual, metrosexual, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Agnost, Athiest, Hindu, Budist, Wiccan, Pagan, short, tall, fat, slender, blue collar, white collar, the list goes on.  I only see 2 classes of people.  Law abiding, and criminal.  The only time that I look at somebody as "other then human" is when they commit a crime, most especially the ultimate, murder.  I defy anybody to say that TImothy McVeigh, Charles Manson, Osama, and Jeffrey Dahmer have as much of a right to live as somebody like Mother Theresa, George Washington Carver, or Neil Armstrong.

I am morally opposed to abortion when it is used for birth control.  I do not have any problems when the health and safety of the mother is at stake.  I do not think it should be illegal, but I do wish that other choices were considered, like adoption.

I can go on and on in my beliefs.  Most people on the Right consider me a "closet liberal", and not a "true conservative".  Most people on the left consider me a "Conservative", and a "class enemy" (or as it was phrased today, "a fascist elite and their working class minion(s)".)

But I am firm in my beliefs, and I guess I will just keep getting run over by both sides of the political arena.

I agree with Teddy Roosevelt.  "Walk softly, and carry a big stick".


How Bush:
Talk loudly and carry a wet noodle!

Just a quickie for GW - I have no problem with you or anyone else owning and using guns for hunting as long as you - and it seems clear that you are - use them in a responsible way. However, as I and everyone I know has made it to their thirties without ever even seeing a gun, or hearing a gunshot on the streets of my city, or hearing about a friend or relative being involved in a gun-related incident I can only ponder that, in spite of your quoted statistics, I would much rather live in a gun-free society.

The fact that in 1991 (World Bank Reporthttp://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/8Comparison.htm) there were reported 8,915 murders involving handguns in the USA and only 7 in the UK does kinda give anyone food for thought. With a murder rate 4 times higher than the UK and 12 times higher for 15-24 years olds and furthermore 37 rapes per 100,000 population in the USA as against 7 per 100,000 in the UK, 221 armed robberies USA as against 63 per 100k in the UK; 22% of the children in the USA are living below the poverty level... sheesh, sorry to bang on but when I see the glitz and the glamour on television I keep thinking you guys are living in a veritable utopia and we in the UK are in the third world. Anyway, I'm not saying the UK is perfect - in fact it seems like only the blasted Swedes are perfect but then they get seriously bored and keep on comiiting suicide and developing really good and stylish furniture (and to think they used to be the Vikings?!?!?).

All I'm saying in a nutshell is that my major problem with conservatism is that it seems to assume that the system is worth conserving in the first place and shouldn't countenance any change. What little change conservatism may desire is to retract liberal policies and return to a golden past vision of a world that only ever existed in our rose-tinted memories and celluloid impressions.

Anyway, it's all about keeping the debate open and lively so let all sides continue to disagree and then maybe we'll meet somewhere in the middle where democracies live - much better than getting stranded on the banks of the far left or far right where despots and tyrannies revel. Just keep those guns holstered pardner until ya really need to use them  ;)

Like with Mushroom, you and often disagree about issues, but I do respect your intelligence and your efforts to inform yourself about them.  I respect that independance of mind in both of you, which is why I try to treat your opinions with more respect than I might accord others (who shall remain nameless, but who refuse to answer questions re their posts) on this board.  I would say that I at least would like you to get past the Clinton administration, evan though I agree with some of your grips about it.
Thanks Don Carlos, you have forced me to become more educated and I appreciate that. I respect all peoples views much more than I used to ;)

Since coming onto the boards, I have realised I am probably liberal in thought. However, I do not wish to pigeon-hole myself into any political category.

UKVisitor, I enjoyed reading your posts.  :)

OK, here are the 3 which he very obviously tried to forward a movement which has been captured as "liberal".

(titles omitted for brevity, see above)

Mr. Heston is a great example of somebody who is Socially Liberal, and at the same time Christian and Conservative.  But because of his outspoken beliefs in God and guns, he is classified as a "RIght-Wing nut".


Thankyou for the info.  I did see Planet of the Apes but didn't remember that Heston was in it, and am not familiar with the other films.  By the way, I don't classify him as a "right, wing nut" (I guess that would be one that only tightens?  ;)), but I do think some of his behavior has be a bit insensitive (like after Colombine).

there were reported 8,915 murders involving handguns in the USA and only 7 in the UK


Well see, most of those American gun deaths take place in the urban areas where they are more strict with gun control.  Funny how in rural areas where buying a gun takes two minutes the murder rate per capita is much lower.

Just to clarify, no place except Washington DC has banned guns, and even if they wanted to that second amendment gets in their way and stops states like Massachusetts from stomping on peoples' rights.  But urban areas have made it tougher for law-abiding citizens to get firearms, leaving them defenseless to criminals.  I ask, how many of those gun-related deaths were done by a person with a CCW permit?  Not many is my guess.  How many where done with illegally-obtained guns?  My guess is quite a few.

You have the same problem that I do then.  I quite often find that when I am "middle of the road", I get hit from both sides.

I am both liberal and conservative when it comes to social issues.  Welfare is needed, but it should not be a lifetime entitlement.  Kick off the lazy ones and the cheats, and save it for the people who REALLY want to improve their life.  Drugs are evil, and first time offenders should be given treatment.  Traffickers should get VERY stiff penalties.  Repeat offenders should be locked up, as dangers to society.

I agree with some gun control.  There is little need for most people to have an AK-47.  But at the same time, judges often give people a slap on the wrist for gun offenses.  I think that a reasonable waiting period is a good idea (3-7 days), when the time is used for a COMPLETE background check.  Gun owndership is nut just a right, it is also a responsibility and a privlidge.  Irresponsible ownership should be treated harshly, and all future "rights" to gun ownership should be forfit.

Being a veteran, the use of military force should be a last resort.  When taken, it should be quick, decisive, and have a lasting result.  Sending our military off to die for no reason (or a purely political reason) is wrong.  In this, I agree with Teddy Roosevelt.  "Walk softly, and carry a big stick".

I believe that humans are a part of nature.  As such, it is up to us to protect and preserve it.  Harvesting natural resources can be done safely, and with minimal long term impact on the environment.  But we should try to minimize such impact, so future generations can enjoy the beauty that this country offers.

I truely believe that everybody is equal, unless they prove otherwise.  Black, white, red, yelloy, green, blue, male, female, neuter, hermaphrodyte, heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, autosexual, omnisexual, metrosexual, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Agnost, Athiest, Hindu, Budist, Wiccan, Pagan, short, tall, fat, slender, blue collar, white collar, the list goes on.  I only see 2 classes of people.  Law abiding, and criminal.  The only time that I look at somebody as "other then human" is when they commit a crime, most especially the ultimate, murder.  I defy anybody to say that TImothy McVeigh, Charles Manson, Osama, and Jeffrey Dahmer have as much of a right to live as somebody like Mother Theresa, George Washington Carver, or Neil Armstrong.

I am morally opposed to abortion when it is used for birth control.  I do not have any problems when the health and safety of the mother is at stake.  I do not think it should be illegal, but I do wish that other choices were considered, like adoption.

I can go on and on in my beliefs.  Most people on the Right consider me a "closet liberal", and not a "true conservative".  Most people on the left consider me a "Conservative", and a "class enemy" (or as it was phrased today, "a fascist elite and their working class minion(s)".)

But I am firm in my beliefs, and I guess I will just keep getting run over by both sides of the political arena.


Not editing this one.  Great post, and, not that it matters, I agree with just about everything you said.

Welfare: those who can work should, but should also get assistance if they need it, evan while working: from each according to their ability, to each according to their need.  If all you can get is minimum wage and you have kids to support, work that job, and I will have no problem paying taxes so your kids can eat, see a doctor, get an education.

Guns:  I would draw an analogy to driving.  Do it responsibally, sober and defensively and it is your right.  Do it drunk and/or offencivbally and lose your licence.

Equality needs no elaboration.  And as for the rest, we all have a right to protect ourselves from psychcopaths.

I too am morally opposed to abortion and hope to see ever fewer.  Adoption is certainly an alternative.  Maybe, just maybe, more women would opt for it if they had more support during their unwanted pregnancies.  Just a thought.

War: Every "warrior" I ever met hated war, unlike the "chicken hawks" now running our foreign policy.  "Those who give the orders are not the ones to die, its Scot, and McDonald, and the likes of you and I" (from There were Roses re the "troubles" in northern Ireland).

Environment:  We are part of nature, not above it, and must always remember it.  Its not nice to trifle with mother nature.

To me, these are neither "liberal" or "conservative" values, but human and humane values that all but the most cynical would share.  The big question, of course, is how to achieve them.

Well see, most of those American gun deaths take place in the urban areas where they are more strict with gun control.  Funny how in rural areas where buying a gun takes two minutes the murder rate per capita is much lower.

Just to clarify, no place except Washington DC has banned guns, and even if they wanted to that second amendment gets in their way and stops states like Massachusetts from stomping on peoples' rights.  But urban areas have made it tougher for law-abiding citizens to get firearms, leaving them defenseless to criminals.  I ask, how many of those gun-related deaths were done by a person with a CCW permit?  Not many is my guess.  How many where done with illegally-obtained guns?  My guess is quite a few.


Now I will risk getting banned by suggesting that the logic of this post is just a crock of over-simplified and thoughtless nonsense.  Of course crime rates, all crime rates, are  higher in cities than in rural areas.  There are simply MORE PEOPLE there.  Psychologists have found (I read about this many years ago) that if you put rats in a crowded environment they begin to engage in all sorts of anti-social behavior.  When you concentrate large numbers of poor and hopeless people in a ghetto, and deny them any realistic expectation of getting out, what do you expect?  So if you live in a big city, lock your doors, bar your windows, buy a BIG gun and lots of ammo, and get ready to shoopt your neighbor, or find ways to make our cities more human and more humane.

I've always found this "right to bear arms" crap a bunch of bullshhh.  In 1776, sure, when an Indian could attack your land and when people needed to hunt to eat, sure, it would be a "crime" for the gov't not to let you wield a gun.  But today?  NO! Only if you're a cop or something of the like.  Even hunting guns are dangerous because kids can get to them and shoot people. 

The problem with the gun control argument in the US, especially when compared to this side of the pond, is that the guns are there already: there can be no realistic hope for gun control when the population is armed already, and a significant minority would refuse to give up their guns whatever laws were passed.  The spurious statistics thrown around by the pro-gun lobby (and the equally dubious ones used on the other side) are an irrelevance: if the US were to ban guns, the non-law-abiding sorts would still have huge arsenals - and they're the ones most likely to use guns anyway.

You have a point there Philbo but I guess it would be the gun retailers and manufacturers who would have th ebiggest lobby on this anyway. I very much doubt, like yourself, that guns will be outlawed in the USA anytime soon for these reasons and more. I just object to the argument that suggests that the wide ownership of guns somehow deters serious crime when its fairly obvious that its a lot easier for criminals to obtain 'illegal' guns when there are so many in the country already. Me here in the UK, I wouldn't know where to start if I wanted to get hold of a gun for good or for bad intentions.

Now I will risk getting banned by suggesting that the logic of this post is just a crock of over-simplified and thoughtless nonsense.  Of course crime rates, all crime rates, are  higher in cities than in rural areas.  There are simply MORE PEOPLE there.  Psychologists have found (I read about this many years ago) that if you put rats in a crowded environment they begin to engage in all sorts of anti-social behavior.  When you concentrate large numbers of poor and hopeless people in a ghetto, and deny them any realistic expectation of getting out, what do you expect?  So if you live in a big city, lock your doors, bar your windows, buy a BIG gun and lots of ammo, and get ready to shoopt your neighbor, or find ways to make our cities more human and more humane.

I was going to say, the methamphetamine epidemic has upset the stereotype of the morally-upright, johnny-apple pie waltons of rural America.
Rural America has  illegal guns and meth labs in every rural hamlet from the Everglades to the Cascades!
And you know what?  Every gun owner is "law-abiding"... until they use the weapon to hold-up a liquor store or waste somebody!

The problem with the gun control argument in the US, especially when compared to this side of the pond, is that the guns are there already: there can be no realistic hope for gun control when the population is armed already, and a significant minority would refuse to give up their guns whatever laws were passed.  The spurious statistics thrown around by the pro-gun lobby (and the equally dubious ones used on the other side) are an irrelevance: if the US were to ban guns, the non-law-abiding sorts would still have huge arsenals - and they're the ones most likely to use guns anyway.


That is very well put, I wish I could write like that.

I've always found this "right to bear arms" crap a bunch of bullshhh.  In 1776, sure, when an Indian could attack your land and when people needed to hunt to eat, sure, it would be a "crime" for the gov't not to let you wield a gun.  But today?  NO! Only if you're a cop or something of the like.  Even hunting guns are dangerous because kids can get to them and shoot people.

Well good, don't own a gun, but don't try and use the power of government to trample on my constitutional rights.  Move to another country if you must.

Of course crime rates, all crime rates, are  higher in cities than in rural areas.  There are simply MORE PEOPLE there.

That is why I wrote "per capita."

I was going to say, the methamphetamine epidemic has upset the stereotype of the morally-upright, johnny-apple pie waltons of rural America.
Rural America has  illegal guns and meth labs in every rural hamlet from the Everglades to the Cascades!
And you know what?  Every gun owner is "law-abiding"... until they use the weapon to hold-up a liquor store or waste somebody!


Yes the rural areas are infested with methamphetamine, but the urban areas are infested with crack cocaine.  So please don't give me that.

Not true.  Some people steal guns, buy them on the black market, own automatic ones which are banned, or something like that.

Again I ask.  How many people kill someone with a gun who went through the loops to obtain a CCW?  Very few gun-related murders are done by someone with a CCW.  It's usually someone who bought their gun illegally off the streets.

Yes the rural areas are infested with methamphetamine, but the urban areas are infested with crack cocaine.  So please don't give me that.

Not true.  So people steal guns, buy them on the black market, own automatic ones which are banned, or something like that.

Again I ask.  How many people kill someone with a gun who went through the loops to obtain a CCW?  Very few gun-related murders are done by someone with a CCW.  It's usually someone who bought their gun illegally off the streets.

I'm not talking about street crime  necessarily.  I'm talking about pops going whacko and offing the wife and kids one fine day!  Sometimes are CCW guns are not used in the way we have pledged.

Yes, that was implied in my point.  Back in the '80s "drugs" got labelled as an urban problem, especially concerning the crack epidemic.  What we see with meth is that drugs can infest rural areas too.

I'm not talking about street crime  necessarily.  I'm talking about pops going whacko and offing the wife and kids one fine day!  Sometimes are CCW guns are not used in the way we have pledged.


I doubt it.  Even in states like Georgia, where getting a concealed carry weapon (CCW) which allows you to carry your gun everywhere except in a church, federal building, or a place that makes 51% of more of it's profits from alcohol and is very easy to get...all you have to do is be 21, not a convicted felon, and pay a fee, the rates of gun-related crimes among CCW holders is very low.

Most crimes are done with Saturday night special style guns bought illegally off the streets.  Those will never go away.  But the law-abiding citizen who uses his CCW permit to carry his gun on the streets, in restaurants, and the local store will go away.  That is exactly what happened in the state of Texas a few years back.  A woman and her family were eating inside a restaurant, a man walks in with an illegally-obtained gun and starts slowly shooting everyone.  Texas at the time did not allow CCW holders to take their guns inside of restaurants, and the woman had one.  In the end the man killed 15 people, including the family of the woman who had a CCW permit and a gun in her car parked just outside the restaurant.  Let's just say the state of Texas no longer bans people from taking their guns inside restaurants if they have a CCW permit.

I doubt it.  Even in states like Georgia, where getting a concealed carry weapon (CCW) which allows you to carry your gun everywhere except in a church, federal building, or a place that makes 51% of more of it's profits from alcohol and is very easy to get...all you have to do is be 21, not a convicted felon, and pay a fee, the rates of gun-related crimes among CCW holders is very low.

Most crimes are done with Saturday night special style guns bought illegally off the streets.  Those will never go away.  But the law-abiding citizen who uses his CCW permit to carry his gun on the streets, in restaurants, and the local store will go away.  That is exactly what happened in the state of Texas a few years back.  A woman and her family were eating inside a restaurant, a man walks in with an illegally-obtained gun and starts slowly shooting everyone.  Texas at the time did not allow CCW holders to take their guns inside of restaurants, and the woman had one.  In the end the man killed 15 people, including the family of the woman who had a CCW permit and a gun in her car parked just outside the restaurant.  Let's just say the state of Texas no longer bans people from taking their guns inside restaurants if they have a CCW permit.

Well if they don't commit crimes and they are no threat to law enforcement, where's the story?  Why are you defending these CCW permits all the time?  Hmmm.....

That is very well put, I wish I could write like that.

<blush>  Thank you.

It's a pragmatist's view of gun control - I don't believe that it would work over there... though (like UKVisitor) I would hate life here to become so gun-infested.  This logic seems inescapable to me, though: the more legal guns there are, the easier it gets for people to obtain guns illegally (through theft, illicit sales from the gun shops, etc.), so even if the majority of guns used in criminal acts are with illegally-held weapons, this does not mean that legal gun ownership is necessarily good.  If you see what I mean.

this board is liberal because it's a site that deals with pop culture and people who love pop culture are usually liberal. go to a message forum about the NRA and you'll see an overwhelming majority of posters who are conservative.


That's the smelliest pile of sheeshe I've read today. "People who like pop culture are usually Liberal." That makes no sense. Pop culture is a broad heading includes everybody. It has no political connotation. The NRA is a politically aimed organisation targeted at gun-toting Conservatives. I've seen the magazines... they actually TELL you whom to vote for. It's appaulling. 

One thing must be said about today's youth. There is no unified "youth movement." Today's youth is a younger version of the previous generations. Thinkers and stinkers, with most of us belonging to the latter. Most young people, just like most people, are shallow.

I consider myselft very "liberal." I believe that everyone is entitled to the maximum amount of freedom that a functional society can sustain. Hunting is OK in my book, and so are regulated and registered hunting rifles. Basically I think that as long as one doesn't directly infringe on another's right to "maximum" freedom, s/he should be allowed to do whatever they want. If it doesn't endanger others, then why not?

That's the smelliest pile of sheeshe I've read today. "People who like pop culture are usually Liberal." That makes no sense. Pop culture is a broad heading includes everybody. It has no political connotation. The NRA is a politically aimed organisation targeted at gun-toting Conservatives. I've seen the magazines... they actually TELL you whom to vote for. It's appaulling. 


it's an observation based on my experiance. i know many around my home town are very conservative and all they care about is the here and now. popular culture means very little with someone who's idea of high culture is drinking beer and watching hockey night in canada.

.

I consider myselft very "liberal." I believe that everyone is entitled to the maximum amount of freedom that a functional society can sustain. Hunting is OK in my book, and so are regulated and registered hunting rifles. Basically I think that as long as one doesn't directly infringe on another's right to "maximum" freedom, s/he should be allowed to do whatever they want. If it doesn't endanger others, then why not?


Sounds very "Vermont" to me, just don't scare the horses.

Guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people.

I consider myselft very "liberal." I believe that everyone is entitled to the maximum amount of freedom that a functional society can sustain. Hunting is OK in my book, and so are regulated and registered hunting rifles. Basically I think that as long as one doesn't directly infringe on another's right to "maximum" freedom, s/he should be allowed to do whatever they want. If it doesn't endanger others, then why not?


No, I don't buy it.  Social freedom, yes.  But the far left (and you're an exception) has been advocating for years the repeal of the second amendment to the US Constitution.

Also economic freedom is something the far-left opposes.  Take far-left Nader, who basically wants economic fascism and basically allow the government to take 80% of peoples' money and regulate everybody to death.  Where is that freedom coming from the left?  Where is the push for economic freedom?

I support all freedom as long as it is not hurtful to other beings.  If it hurts themselves only, it's legal, but it still makes me sad (like smoking).

Uh oh....

here we go....

Rehnquist Leaving Court by June

"NYT: REHNQUIST'S SUPREME COURT FAREWELL JUNE, IF NOT EARLIER... DEVELOPING..."

Link: http://www.drudgereport.com/

The NRA is a politically aimed organisation targeted at gun-toting Conservatives. I've seen the magazines... they actually TELL you whom to vote for. It's appaulling. 


They tell you who to vote for based on guns, thats why they exist.  The NAACP, NOW, ACT, and Americans for life all do the same thing.

The board is liberal 'cos it's FREEEEEEEE!  ;D (trying desperately to convey the joy of being 'free', whilst trying desperately to convince myself I am also free....)