As you probably know the Kyoto suicide pact went into effect on February 16, 2005.  And already Canada and Europe are whining, while we in the United States, and countries like China and Australia laugh it up at them.

Just thought I'd post some required reading for the America-haters who think Christmas won't come without America joining Kyoto:

Kyoto Protocol 'next to useless': Australian PM
Link: http://www.smh.com.au/news/Environment/Kyoto-Protocol-next-to-useless-PM/2005/02/16/1108500136426.html

Kyoto 'useless, harmful'
Link: http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,12268792^1702

Kyoto Protocol: "A useless appendage to an irrelevant treaty"
Link: http://www.cato.org/testimony/ct-pm072998.html

Waking Up to Kyoto: Europeans are about to find out what emissions cuts mean
Link: http://www.techcentralstation.com/021605A.html

I support the Treaty GWBush2004.  It might be drastic measures, but it's better than turning the world into a desert!

-FHF  ;)

I support the Treaty GWBush2004.  It might be drastic measures, but it's better than turning the world into a desert!

-FHF  ;)

Kyoto is too little, too late.  In order for our grandchildren to inherit an inhabitable planet we shall have to reduce green house emissions far more drastically and far sooner than the Kyoto protocols call for.  The planet won't be a desert until it has been a giant swamp.
Joining the protocols would be a sign of willingness to face the truth, but why should the Bush Administration want to show such a sign?  Why lie when you don't have to?
If we don't get cracking on the global warming problem THIS is going to happen:
http://www.ucsusa.org/global_environment/global_warming/index.cfm
But why believe them, my friends?, they're just a bunch of environmental whackos!
http://www.nancynall.com/media/image_196189.jpg
;D ;D ;D :\'(

Kyoto is too little, too late. In order for our grandchildren to inherit an inhabitable planet we shall have to reduce green house emissions far more drastically and far sooner than the Kyoto protocols call for. The planet won't be a desert until it has been a giant swamp.
Joining the protocols would be a sign of willingness to face the truth, but why should the Bush Administration want to show such a sign? Why lie when you don't have to?
If we don't get cracking on the global warming problem THIS is going to happen:
http://www.ucsusa.org/global_environment/global_warming/index.cfm
But why believe them, my friends?, they're just a bunch of environmental whackos!
http://www.nancynall.com/media/image_196189.jpg
;D ;D ;D :\'(



You're probably right on Kyoto.  But we need to do something, even if it means sacrificing our way of life.

Kyoto is too little, too late.  In order for our grandchildren to inherit an inhabitable planet we shall have to reduce green house emissions far more drastically and far sooner than the Kyoto protocols call for.  The planet won't be a desert until it has been a giant swamp.


THE SKY IS FALLING!  ::)

I love Kyoto!  It will make it even harder for Europe to catch up with the US (see above links.)

THE SKY IS FALLING!  ::)

I love Kyoto!  It will make it even harder for Europe to catch up with the US (see above links.)

Nothing bad could ever happen to us!  This is America, and we're Republicans!  Fred Barnes says so, so it must be right!

THE SKY IS FALLING! ::)

I love Kyoto! It will make it even harder for Europe to catch up with the US (see above links.)

I'm all right, he says.  It won't be *me* who suffers, so WGAF?  A very typical attitude, and I do hope you live a long time to see the results of your selfishness.

As you probably know the Kyoto suicide pact went into effect on February 16, 2005. 

The suicide effect is caused by those who haven't joined or abandoned it.  The oceans  are warming, the glaciars and ice caps are melting, "El Ninos" are getting stronger, weather patterns are changing, deserts are expanding, habitat for wild creatures is contracting, and bio-diversity is shrinking.  Put it all together and you have suicide on a global level.

Do I care?  I don't care, I'm a conservative.  Give me one more dance, and F my grandkids, they never did s**t for me anyway.  Give me just one more dance.

As Max said, Koyoto is too little too late, but at least its a start.  Maybe those nations participating will save all out butts, or at least buy us a few more years.

I'm all right, he says.  It won't be *me* who suffers, so WGAF?  A very typical attitude, and I do hope you live a long time to see the results of your selfishness.


Well let's see.  I'm 45 year-old, I don't expect to live beyond 55...the estimates are saying the Earth's temperature will rise by one degree in 100 years.

No worrying here.

I'm all right, he says.  It won't be *me* who suffers, so WGAF?  A very typical attitude, and I do hope you live a long time to see the results of your selfishness.


Well that's how conservatives operate, they only care about themselves.

Well that's how conservatives operate, they only care about themselves.


Really?  It seems to me that liberals sure didn't care that Saddam was murdering people and had rape rooms and torture chambers open.

Really?  It seems to me that liberals sure didn't care that Saddam was murdering people and had rape rooms and torture chambers open.


What about the millions of people starving in this country, well Bush is wasting billions and billions on Iraq, which he said was an "imminent" threat to America because of massive stockpiles of WMD when they haven't found anything, and giving tens of thousands of dollars in tax cuts to multi-millionaire/billionaires. Face it, Saddam was not an "imminent" threat to America, Bush lied. We didn't go to war because Saddam was a bad guy, we went because Bush said Saddam was an imminent threat.

What about the millions of people starving in this country, well Bush is wasting billions and billions on Iraq, which he said was an "imminent" threat to America because of massive stockpiles of WMD when they haven't found anything, and giving tens of thousands of dollars in tax cuts to multi-millionaire/billionaires. Face it, Saddam was not an "imminent" threat to America, Bush lied. We didn't go to war because Saddam was a bad guy, we went because Bush said Saddam was an imminent threat.


You dodged what I said.

You dodged what I said.


Ok, Yes I think Saddam was an evil leader, and I'm glad to see him locked up. But I think Bush misled us on the reasons for going to war. There are also other evil leaders in this world, since we are now on this freedom for the world mission are we going to "take 'em out" too? I'm not going to argue about the reasons for Iraq anymore, it's done and over with, now we have to make the best of it, and try to help secure the country for the Iraqi people. That's still far from reality, I just read today of more than 55 Iraqis dying due to attacks today, that seems like it's happening everyday, yet Bush said "mission accomplished" in May 2003 in his little flight suit.

Well let's see. I'm 45 year-old, I don't expect to live beyond 55...the estimates are saying the Earth's temperature will rise by one degree in 100 years.

No worrying here.


Wait a second there.  The one degree temperature rise states an average.  Global warming isn't just about hotter summers and milder winters, it's more about storms, biomes, and local climate change.  Some areas will most likely get colder, like the eastern half of the US.  Other areas, like my home state Oregon, seem to be getting warmer and drier.  1 degree is an average, it's a lot more than it sounds.  The Ice Age was only 10 deg. colder than today on average.

I blame the 2004 hurricane season on Global Warming.

Well let's see.  I'm 45 year-old, I don't expect to live beyond 55...the estimates are saying the Earth's temperature will rise by one degree in 100 years.

No worrying here.


You don't expect to live beyond 55? Why?  :\'(

You don't expect to live beyond 55? Why?  :\'(


Well it's simple.  At the rate I'm going I can retire at 55, which I am planing to do.  And you know how it is, you retire and six months later they're zipping you up in a body bag.

Well it's simple.  At the rate I'm going I can retire at 55, which I am planing to do.  And you know how it is, you retire and six months later they're zipping you up in a body bag.


Hmm, well my Aunt died within a year of retirement, she was only 52...but my grandmother has never worked, she is alive at 77.

Can someone clarify this "Kyoto" thing? I didn't know about nothing, and the articles didn't help.

Can someone clarify this "Kyoto" thing? I didn't know about nothing, and the articles didn't help.


It's a pact that some 140 nations have entered to try and reduce greenhouse emissions.  Problem is it would really hurt businesses and slow economic growth, and a lot of people will contend there is no such thing as global warming being caused by humans.  All of Europe and Canada and a lot of other nations have joined this, but America hasn't.  Bush refuses to sign or support Kyoto.

In 1997 Clinton signed the Kyoto treaty, but in a 95-0 vote (against the US signing Kyoto) the US Senate said no to Kyoto and overrided the will of former President Clinton.  That's right, not one single member of the US Senate voted in favor of Kyoto.

Well it's simple.  At the rate I'm going I can retire at 55, which I am planing to do.  And you know how it is, you retire and six months later they're zipping you up in a body bag.

I Can't Drive 55
http://www.nndb.com/people/336/000024264/hagar.jpg

It's a pact that some 140 nations have entered to try and reduce greenhouse emissions. Problem is it would really hurt businesses and slow economic growth, and a lot of people will contend there is no such thing as global warming being caused by humans.

Until about eighteen months ago, I was firmly with the sceptics on the possible environmental impact of global warming: to be honest, it was only when I did the maths for myself, working out the amount of ice over the antarctic really was enough to raise sea levels by 18m or thereabouts... now, that amount of water ain't going to melt in a decade, or even two, but give it a hundred years of rising temperatures - Put it this way, I wouldn't be buying property in any coastal cities as an investment for my children.

I'd say the evidence is getting fairly conclusive that human activity has caused global warming: the only argument is to what proportion of the fairly steep rise in temperatures that has been measured over the past ten years is due to us, and what can be passed on to increased solar activity and such like.  You should have signed up to the Kyoto treaty, you know: as it is, you've not got a leg to stand on when trying to criticise China for the humungous amount of energy they'll be consuming over there in the next few years as the Chinese economy goes streaking past everyone else in the world put together... they, and the other seriously expanding economies, are the ones with most to lose from this sort of treaty; the cost to the US and Europe is trivial in comparison.

The reductions in emissions required by the Kyoto don't go anything like far enough to turn things around: they will slow down the rate of increase in temperature, though.  Maybe even enough to give Los Angeles another hundred years, who knows?

Hey, it's just struck me why Bush really hasn't signed up to Kyoto... if by not doing so, the US coastal cities are underwater sooner rather than later - which was them blue states, again?

Until about eighteen months ago, I was firmly with the sceptics on the possible environmental impact of global warming: to be honest, it was only when I did the maths for myself, working out the amount of ice over the antarctic really was enough to raise sea levels by 18m or thereabouts... now, that amount of water ain't going to melt in a decade, or even two, but give it a hundred years of rising temperatures - Put it this way, I wouldn't be buying property in any coastal cities as an investment for my children.

I'd say the evidence is getting fairly conclusive that human activity has caused global warming: the only argument is to what proportion of the fairly steep rise in temperatures that has been measured over the past ten years is due to us, and what can be passed on to increased solar activity and such like. You should have signed up to the Kyoto treaty, you know: as it is, you've not got a leg to stand on when trying to criticise China for the humungous amount of energy they'll be consuming over there in the next few years as the Chinese economy goes streaking past everyone else in the world put together... they, and the other seriously expanding economies, are the ones with most to lose from this sort of treaty; the cost to the US and Europe is trivial in comparison.

The reductions in emissions required by the Kyoto don't go anything like far enough to turn things around: they will slow down the rate of increase in temperature, though. Maybe even enough to give Los Angeles another hundred years, who knows?

Hey, it's just struck me why Bush really hasn't signed up to Kyoto... if by not doing so, the US coastal cities are underwater sooner rather than later - which was them blue states, again?


18 m of water wouldn't do much to Oregon, except Portland and the coast of course.  Salem and Eugene are pretty high up and the coast has a lot of hicks anyway  ;D

Really?  It seems to me that liberals sure didn't care that Saddam was murdering people and had rape rooms and torture chambers open.


Well just wait a sec.  Pinochet did the same thing.  So did Fernando Marcos, so did Anastasio Somosa, so did every dictator who could afford a pair of sun glasses.  That was fne with us as long as they were willing to make their country safe for CokaCola.  So don't get holier that thou.  You conservatives have been willing to support facist dictators, who have committed horrific acts against humanity, for decades.  All of a sudden you really care about oppressed peoples around the world?  I at least have spoken against all of them.  Where were you when the American nuns were killed by the military in El Salvador?

But please tell me what this has to do with Koyoto?

Well let's see.  I'm 45 year-old, I don't expect to live beyond 55...the estimates are saying the Earth's temperature will rise by one degree in 100 years.

No worrying here.


You just don't get the science, evan if your assertion turns out to be fact.  Read up on climate and climate change, and the difference that only a fraction of a degree of average tempteratuire change can cause.  It is already happening.

18 m of water wouldn't do much to Oregon, except Portland and the coast of course.  Salem and Eugene are pretty high up and the coast has a lot of hicks anyway  ;D

18 meters, you mean?  If the oceans rise by 18 meters, there will be plague-ridden islands called Salem and Eugene!

18 meters, you mean? If the oceans rise by 18 meters, there will by plague-ridden islands called Salem and Eugene!


Meters, yes :)  18 meters is about 58.5 feet though, and Eugene is about 400 feet above sea level.  I'm not sure what Salem is, but it must be more than 60 feet being almost halfway to Eugene from Portland. 

The coast here is pretty rugged though.  California, THEY would get it bad.  So would people near Seattle, Washington.

You should have signed up to the Kyoto treaty,


No we shouldn't have.  It's a waste and an economy-killer.  Bush and the entire US Senate, even democrats like Kennedy, Kerry, and Boxer, agree.

No we shouldn't have.  It's a waste and an economy-killer.  Bush and the entire US Senate, even democrats like Kennedy, Kerry, and Boxer, agree.

Well we better think of something fast!

Well we better think of something fast!


Why exactly should America join Kyoto?  My guess is that Europe uses more.

Why exactly should America join Kyoto?  My guess is that Europe uses more.

OK, if not Kyoto, then what?  If we don't plug the leak, the boat's going to sink, so to speak.  We can't just continue ignoring scientifict facts and go about our merry way, can we?  Can we?  Uhhh...guys?

OK, if not Kyoto, then what?  If we don't plug the leak, the boat's going to sink, so to speak.  We can't just continue ignoring scientifict facts and go about our merry way, can we?  Can we?  Uhhh...guys?


Kyoto is just a begining, and our not signing a rravestry.  I would like my grandkids to enherate a habitable world.

Why exactly should America join Kyoto?  My guess is that Europe uses more.


Maybe Europe as a whole, but the US puts out 24% of the world's excess carbon dioxide (CO2)

Maybe Europe as a whole, but the US puts out 24% of the world's excess carbon dioxide (CO2)


Why not?  Europe is already trying their "new world order."

Europeans no longer wish to be indivduals, they want to be the European Union.  Have no borders, use the same money, and be one big nation.  No France, no Germany, no Italy, no Spain.  Just Europe.  Good luck to them.

Why not?  Europe is already trying their "new world order."

Europeans no longer wish to be indivduals, they want to be the European Union.  Have no borders, use the same money, and be one big nation.  No France, no Germany, no Italy, no Spain.  Just Europe.  Good luck to them.

That's what we had at the turn of the twentieth century.  Then guess what?  Two world wars, 100 million dead, the whole joint in shambles from Britain to Greece.  So the started to think, "jeez that independent state deal just doesn't work so good for us!"
::)

So the started to think, "jeez that independent state deal just doesn't work so good for us!"
::)


You wait and see.  Something tells me this European Union stuff is going to start a war over there, I don't know how, I can just feel it.  That report I told you about says it as well.

I can't find any evidence of the European Union being set up as a government. I thought it was primarily a trade agreement between participating countries and partly designed to protect the economies of European nations against the Asian boom. The USA is such an enormous economy that the impact of the growing Chinese and Indian economies will hardly be felt in a relative sense, but what if you're Poland, or Greece, or Denmark? As far as I can tell, the nations of Europe still have their own governments, national identities, languages. The standardisation of a currency within an economic community makes pretty good sense. It would certainly make trade easier if everyone's using the same money. As for Kyoto, global warming isn't science fiction. It's science fact, and its effects are cumulative. It will continue to get worse. If you think you'll be dead in ten years you might not care much, but I plan to be around for another 35 years at least, and I have kids who I hope will be around for another 40 years after that. With luck, they won't be living in cities protected by plexiglass bubbles from the hostile environment.

Added: I will also note that while the Australian government won't sign the Kyoto agreement because GW said so, we are still going to abide by its recommendations. So we agree with it, but don't want to be bound by it.  ::)