I personally think they should be shot.

I personally think they should be shot.


I like the way you think.

Personally I say slam the southern border shut, Mexico is a horrible neighbor.  The new fence will slow it down, as will the 210 new border patrol agents being funded by the federal government.

Also I like Michael Savage's "oil for illegals" idea.  Since we, the America taxpayers, must pay for their social services and the for the jobs they fill, the Mexican government should be forced to give us (since they are swimming in oil) one barrel of oil for every illegal aliens to pay for them.

Stuff like Prop. 200 in Arizona, protect Arkansas and protect Georgia now groups, and now this give me hope for the US:

Iowa Supreme Court: DOT can deny driver's licenses to illegal aliens

DES MOINES -- The Iowa Department of Transportation has the authority to deny driver's licenses to illegal aliens residing in Iowa, according to a unanimous decision issued by the Iowa Supreme Court today. The issue was raised in a case from by Juan and Maria Sanchez, who represented a class of illegal, undocumented aliens present in Iowa who want to obtain driver's licenses.

Full story: http://www.gazetteonline.com/article.aspx?art_id=95703&cat_id=1

I like the way you think.

Personally I say slam the southern border shut, Mexico is a horrible neighbor.  The new fence will slow it down, as will the 210 new border patrol agents being funded by the federal government.

Also I like Michael Savage's "oil for illegals" idea.  Since we, the America taxpayers, must pay for their social services and the for the jobs they fill, the Mexican government should be forced to give us (since they are swimming in oil) one barrel of oil for every illegal aliens to pay for them.

I think the idea of one barrel for every illegal aliens is a very good idea.

So what should've been done about the illegal Europeans who crossed the oceans to the borders of existing nations and caused inconvenience to the dominant Americans before the 17th Century? Should they have been shot?

So what should've been done about the illegal Europeans who crossed the oceans to the borders of existing nations and caused inconvenience to the dominant Americans before the 17th Century? Should they have been shot?

Yes.  Illegal aliens are just that ILEGAL.  We have the right to do with them what we want.  Illegals don't belong here.

Definitely send them back!! Or, simply make a great wall (like the Great Wall of China) and put electrical wiring on it!!!! Shockwaves indeed!

Tanya

Pimpinsteelersfan says the Pilgrims should have been massacred and America as we know it should not exist. Sounds pretty treasonous to me. Maybe i should notify Mr. Gonzalez, the hispanic Attorney General.

Pimpinsteelersfan says the Pilgrims should have been massacred and America as we know it should not exist. Sounds pretty treasonous to me. Maybe i should notify Mr. Gonzalez, the hispanic Attorney General.

Why just because I think illegals are in the wrong by coming here.  They have no right to come here.  And I never said anything about the Pilgrims.  They were escaping hardship.

So what should've been done about the illegal Europeans who crossed the oceans to the borders of existing nations and caused inconvenience to the dominant Americans before the 17th Century? Should they have been shot?


Hey buddy, that was hundreds of years ago, it's time to move on.

Pimpinsteelersfan says the Pilgrims should have been massacred and America as we know it should not exist. Sounds pretty treasonous to me. Maybe i should notify Mr. Gonzalez, the hispanic Attorney General.


He's going to be watched with a careful eye. If he opens the border, I will join the NRA!

Tanya

so its ok for the pilgrims to escape not having the freedom to impose their religious beliefs on other people but it's not ok for mexicans to escape actual economic hardship? Why do you think they're coming here if not that?

so its ok for the pilgrims to escape not having the freedom to impose their religious beliefs on other people but it's not ok for mexicans to escape actual economic hardship? Why do you think they're coming here if not that?

Get over it.  That was the past.  The Mexicans are the problem now.  And all illegals need to leave.

to the United States the Mexicans may be the problem but the US has been a big problem to the Mexicans considering the parts with the most Mexicans were once part of Mexico. And if you have so little regard for history then why do you base your beliefs on things that supposedly happened 2000 yeears ago instead of recent scientific findings?

As a future tax payer I don't want to have be paying for them to live here. >:(

Why just because I think illegals are in the wrong by coming here.  They have no right to come here.  And I never said anything about the Pilgrims.  They were escaping hardship.


They have as much right to come here as anyone else does or did. Under current immigration law most of our ancestors would have been denied entry (my Puerto Rican side is the exception, since they were made citizens by act of congress).  

Clearly, you did not say anything about the Pilgims or the other Europeans who came here, killed people (acts of terrorism) and stole their land, but the analogy is a very good one.  And yes, Pilgims were "escaping hardship" but that neither justifies their genocide or their theft of Indian land.  And by the same token, the Mexicans you seem to hate so very much are also "escaping hardship", and by the way, mostly coming into land that once was part of their country but which the US stole from them.  Oh, and did you ever hear of the "braseros" program?

Hey buddy, that was hundreds of years ago, it's time to move on.


Hey buddy, George Santyana (look him up) once said that "those who are ignorant of their history are condemned to repeat it."  

Powhattan,.........Crazy Horse,...........Sitting Bull,...........Geronimo,.....Cochise, protecting "homeland security" and fighting terrorism since 1492.

to the United States the Mexicans may be the problem but the US has been a big problem to the Mexicans considering the parts with the most Mexicans were once part of Mexico. And if you have so little regard for history then why do you base your beliefs on things that supposedly happened 2000 yeears ago instead of recent scientific findings?

Get a life. >:(

so its ok for the pilgrims to escape not having the freedom to impose their religious beliefs on other people but it's not ok for mexicans to escape actual economic hardship? Why do you think they're coming here if not that?


The illegal mexicans don't come here to work, they come here to work the system.

I'm sick of some people acting like they don't suck our social services dry, don't fill up the jails costing the states God knows how much, and that they're all friendly gardeners who just want work.

Close the borders, especially the southern one!

I've heard that Martin Sheen wants them to stay illegal so he can pay them much less to have them work for him. I just wish they could all be legitimate :-\\

I've heard that Martin Sheen wants them to stay illegal so he can pay them much less to have them work for him. I just wish they could all be legitimate :-\\

I think that if the Mexicans would leave then there would be jobs for all the Welfare bums who sit at home making us pay them to do so. >:(

I think that if the Mexicans would leave then there would be jobs for all the Welfare bums who sit at home making us pay them to do so. >:(


That is exactly it!  The illegals are taking the jobs the poor unemployed people were eager to take during the early 1900's.  Now the illegals get them and we the taxpayers get screwed paying for their social services.

My solution: deport all illegal immigrants.  Close the borders.  Refuse welfare to the welfare brats.  See how long it takes those jobs to get filled by real Americans who used to be on welfare.  It's a win-win for America.

As a future tax payer I don't want to have be paying for them to live here. >:(


As it turns out, most immigration scholars agree that illegals contribute much more to the economy than they get back from tax payer benefits.  Its just that the private firms that employ them reap most of the benefits.


Get a life. >:(


Get an education!
The illegal mexicans don't come here to work, they come here to work the system.

I'm sick of some people acting like they don't suck our social services dry, don't fill up the jails costing the states God knows how much, and that they're all friendly gardeners who just want work.

Close the borders, especially the southern one!


Get real!  Look into the facts instead of spounting right wing hyperboly.  Your assertions are just wrong.
I think that if the Mexicans would leave then there would be jobs for all the Welfare bums who sit at home making us pay them to do so. >:(


Another silly myth, the "welfare queen", soaking up all those generous benefits that are so meager people can barely survive on them.  Let me pose a question.  Why is it that when the unemployment rate goes up, so does the stock market, and when it goes down the stock market follows?  The question is rhetorical (hope thats not to big a word).  The fact is that business, especially big business, loves unemployment, and in these days of "globalization" is more than happy to create as much of it as they can.  The bigger the reserve army of labor, the greater the downward  pressure on wages.

They have as much right to come here as anyone else does or did. Under current immigration law most of our ancestors would have been denied entry (my Puerto Rican side is the exception, since they were made citizens by act of congress).  


I'm speaking from experience as a Southern CA resident and teacher. I could see if I was in New York and just running my mouth. I have seen the toll it is taking on this side of the country.

As for my primary ancestors, they weren't immigrants. They were forced here b/c they were an asset to the creation of the economy.

In my honest opinion, everyone just can't live here. If you want to live here, come legally.

Tanya

That is exactly it!  The illegals are taking the jobs the poor unemployed people were eager to take during the early 1900's.  Now the illegals get them and we the taxpayers get screwed paying for their social services.

My solution: deport all illegal immigrants.  Close the borders.  Refuse welfare to the welfare brats.  See how long it takes those jobs to get filled by real Americans who used to be on welfare.  It's a win-win for America.

So glad to see someone else thinks the same as me on this subject.  Now if we could really put it into practice America would be a better place.

I'm speaking from experience as a Southern CA resident

That tells you something.  It's easy for people in the northeast to be critical, but people in the south, and especially in Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, and California are sick of the wave of illegal immigrants coming in from the southern border with Mexico.

CRAZY THOUGHT HERE!

We have money. Mexico is our neighbor. I say we ought to make Mexico a better place, then THEY WON'T HAVE SO MUCH A NEED TO LEAVE! I think they'd be grateful, and that's a better way to spend money then continuing a war.

CRAZY THOUGHT HERE!

We have money. Mexico is our neighbor. I say we ought to make Mexico a better place, then THEY WON'T HAVE SO MUCH A NEED TO LEAVE! I think they'd be grateful, and that's a better way to spend money then continuing a war.

Very well put.  We do need to do that but we also must take care of the ones already living here illegaly.

That tells you something.  It's easy for people in the northeast to be critical, but people in the south, and especially in Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, and California are sick of the wave of illegal immigrants coming in from the southern border with Mexico.


I wonder how they would feel if the schools their children were being affected by this issue. For the record, the Mexican-Americans I know are also divided on this issue. They have children being affected by those who speak no English sending their children to school. The lose precious time to meet the needs of those who can't speak a word of the required language. As a teacher, it's me taking that time away to them! You think I'm happy about this? No. Spend a day in my classroom and then tell me about it.

Tanya

So glad to see someone else thinks the same as me on this subject.  Now if we could really put it into practice America would be a better place.


We are the vast majority.  The people are rising up, you can see it everywhere.

1. Arizona passed prop. 200 on November 02, 2004 that bans people who can't prove US citizenship from getting welfare.  It passed with 60% of the vote, and 40% of the legal mexican population vote.
2. Iowa's Supreme Court has ruled that illegals cannot get driver's licenses in the state of Iowa.
3. Groups are copying "Protect Arizona Now" (the group that got prop. 200 passed,) especially in Arkansas and Georgia.
5. 210 new border agents are being trained as I write this.  They are all going to defend the America-Mexico border.
6. HR-418 passed the US house last week, the bill bans all states from giving driver's licenses to illegal aliens.  All it needs to do is pass the US Senate.
7. A story came out today from USA Today headlined "Illegals being deported by the plane load."  It explained how many more illegals are being deported today then before 9/11.  ICE is working hard.
8. The state of Georgia is expected to pass a bill to ban all illegals from getting driver's licenses AND ban all employers from hiring illegals with strict penalties for violaters.
9. A bill passed in the US House will allow a huge wall to be built in California to stop the flow of illegal immigrants from Mexico despite California law and protests from environmental-wackos.
10. Arizona's prop. 200 was upheld by a federal court and was even upheld by the very liberal San Francisco-based 9th circuit court of appeals.  The bill is now in effect and the opposition to prop. 200 has run out of appeals.  Prop. 200 is going nowhere.

Slowly but surely the people are rising up and saying "no more!"

We are the vast majority.  The people are rising up, you can see it everywhere.

Slowly but surely the people are rising up and saying "no more!"

Yes but there will probably always be those who are against it.

Yes but there will probably always be those who are against it.


You're right.  But their voices (to me) are growing smaller.

CRAZY THOUGHT HERE!

We have money. Mexico is our neighbor. I say we ought to make Mexico a better place, then THEY WON'T HAVE SO MUCH A NEED TO LEAVE! I think they'd be grateful, and that's a better way to spend money then continuing a war.
We already are.  Thanks to NAFTA all of our good-paying manufacturing jobs are going south of the border. It seems like the U.S. industrial base is being gutted in order for large corporations to have a cheap source of labor. I think this is a dangerous policy. What happens if we suddenly have to gear up for a large-scale global conflict? Are we going to start importing our tanks and planes and Humvees from Mexico or China???
The illegal mexicans don't come here to work, they come here to work the system.

I'm sick of some people acting like they don't suck our social services dry, don't fill up the jails costing the states God knows how much, and that they're all friendly gardeners who just want work.

Close the borders, especially the southern one!
What about President Bush stating on repeated occasions that he wants to give legal status to illegal immigrants who are already here so they can be "guest workers?"

Just more diatribe and silly invictive, yet no attempt to confront the facts of the issue.  I'm not payed enough to educate the students I teach, so I'm not going to provide a course on immigration history and practice here.  Send big checks if you want me to do so.  If not, you might try educating yourselves instead of spewing this zenophobic (look it up) and blatantly racist hookum.

they're probably not going to be able to look up the word if it's spelled wrong... it's "xenophobic". I also doubt anyone on here who needs to know is going to look up that word but we'll see.

Never claimed to be a great speller.  In fact, always had trouble with it.  Thanks for the correction.

CRAZY IDEA TWO!

Shooting people is only going to make us seem more like heartless jerks to the rest of the world. And it's just not right. Sending them back doesn't kill anyone, or do you just want a cheap thrill from watching another living being suffer and die?

Arm them at the border so they can shoot guys like pimpinsteelers first!
Yeah, sure...and so they also can escort Al-Qaeda infiltrators into the U.S. while they're at it.
I would also set up a dating service for Mexican men to hook up with the teenage daughters of said white Republicans!
;DCould I also use this dating service to hook up with some hot Latina babes??? ;)

Why just because I think illegals are in the wrong by coming here.  They have no right to come here.  And I never said anything about the Pilgrims.  They were escaping hardship.


Oh the irony of this statement.  :D ;D

And those goddam Injuns, why, they can just go back to where they came from as well!  ;D ;D ;D

I'm not a Xenophobe and I'm not PC either. I'm not for illegal entry into this country, period. It doesn't matter who the group consists of. If they were Canadian, I'd say the same.

Tanya

I am posting this article not so much to support this argument one way or another, but because it seems relevant to this discussion and just to see what you all think (not to mention that it involves my home state):




Nebraska Fears Segregation in Schools

Fri Feb 18, 2:26 PM ET  U.S. National - AP


By SCOTT BAUER, Associated Press Writer

LINCOLN, Neb. - Dick Eisenhauer is tired of watching white families take their children out of the schools in his Nebraska district and enroll them in smaller, outlying ones where there are virtually no poor or Hispanic students.

 

Like many of Nebraska's school systems, the Lexington district where Eisenhauer is superintendent has seen an influx of Hispanics, largely because of jobs at the meatpacking plants, and an accompanying exodus of white students to public elementary schools just outside town.


And there is nothing Eisenhauer can do about it. Nebraska law allows students to switch schools without giving a reason.


"It bothers you when people come into your town and make comments like `You've got lots of Mexican kids,'" Eisenhauer said. "I feel distressed if they would opt out for that reason."


The situation in Lexington and elsewhere in Nebraska has caught the attention of the state Legislature, which is considering a bill to thwart what some say amounts to legal segregation in the schools.


The proposal would force the outlying elementary-only schools to merge with larger kindergarten-through-12th-grade districts. That could mean the closing of the smaller schools.


Beginning in the 1960s, white flight to the suburbs left many big-city school systems across the country predominantly black. But what is happening in Nebraska is a different phenomenon: The white families are staying put; they are just sending their kids to school outside town.


This is possible because Nebraska, unlike many other states and communities, does not require students to attend the schools in the district in which they live.


As a result, in Lexington, the in-town schools, with an enrollment of 2,500, have 804 students learning English as a second language, and 1,172 who are getting a free or reduced-price lunch. The six outlying elementary schools have about 130 students — none of them English learners, none of them living in poverty, according to the state Education Department.


The situation is similar in and around the small town of Schuyler, which also has seen an influx of Hispanics in recent years. There are 250 students there who are learning to speak English; none of them attend the outlying schools. Of 325 students living in poverty, all but 18 go to school in town.


At the same time, spending per student in the outlying schools is as much as twice as high as spending in the Schuyler grade schools. All public schools in Nebraska are primarily funded with local property taxes and state aid, which is based in part on enrollment.


Cecilia Huerta, director of the state's Mexican-American Commission, said other Nebraska communities with large numbers of Hispanics are likely to have the same situation.


"People in Lexington and Schuyler do not want their kids being polluted by Latin Americans and Hispanics," Huerta said. "They think they're not going to get the quality of education if they have a diverse classroom."


Many Hispanics are not aware of what is happening, but if they did "they would be up in arms," said state Sen. Ray Aguilar, the Legislature's only Hispanic.


Chris Dvorak, a white parent who has two children who attend a school outside Schuyler, said she sent her children there to avoid overcrowding in town, not to get away from Hispanics. "I would have done the same thing if they were all white kids," Dvorak said.


There are 45 students enrolled at Dvorak's children's school, compared with more than 850 at Schuyler Grade School.


State Sen. Chris Langemeier of Schuyler pointed out that anyone can attend the outlying schools. "It's not an elite group that gets to option," he said.

 



But Aguilar said Hispanic students do not go to the schools outside of town because in many Hispanic households, both parents work and do not have cars to take their children to class.

Rosa Valerio, a Hispanic mother whose children both attend school in Schuyler, said she never considered sending them to schools outside town because they are too far away.

Some senators are afraid the state will face legal challenges if the Legislature does not stop the trend toward separate white and Hispanic schools.

"It is unconscionable," said the bill's sponsor, Sen. Ron Raikes.

___

What really gets me is that some people (like a few who have posted here) wants the illegal Mexicans to be deported but yet if someone was from Cuba, that is a different story.




Cat

What really gets me is that some people (like a few who have posted here) wants the illegal Mexicans to be deported but yet if someone was from Cuba, that is a different story.




Cat

I have a problem with any illegal.  Period.

What really gets me is that some people (like a few who have posted here) wants the illegal Mexicans to be deported but yet if someone was from Cuba, that is a different story.




Cat


I'm an equal opportunity deporter!

Tanya

What about President Bush stating on repeated occasions that he wants to give legal status to illegal immigrants who are already here so they can be "guest workers?"


Go back and read some of my past statements.  I have not given President Bush a pass on this amnesty-in-disguise, in fact I have been highly critical of him and the republican party on illegal immigration.  The republicans are in power, and reading past articles, I can tell you the majority of republican US House members will not support President Bush's amnesty-in-disguise program, in fact J.D. Hayworth (R-Arizona) says it's a quote "dead idea walking."  And I'm glad it's dead.

President Bush is in no way perfect, I admit that.  On two issues I think he is dead wrong.  Those are spending (which he is getting better on,) and illegal immigration.

I'll say it again: Mexico is a bad neighbor.

So if a wealthy European student overstays his/her visa and deliberately continues to live here illegally, they should be shot also?

So if a wealthy European student overstays his/her visa and deliberately continues to live here illegally, they should be shot also?


As I said before, at least I'm an equal opportunity deporter! Everyone gets counted!

Tanya

So if a wealthy European student overstays his/her visa and deliberately continues to live here illegally, they should be shot also?


Okay shot is going to far.  But deported?  Yes.  Deport all illegal immigrants now is what I say.

But you see, the problem is Mexico.  There is no way to compare the number of illegal mexicans with the numbers of illegal aliens from other countries.  This people cross our border daily, smuggle in drugs, and now there are reports that illegals who can't get in our getting much more violent, border patrol agents are now starting to find themselves targets for sniper fire from Mexico.

No more of this sh**.  If they come over, throw them in jail for a mandatory six months, then deport them back to Mexico.

As I said before, at least I'm an equal opportunity deporter! Everyone gets counted!

Tanya


Well, my question wasn't about deportation.

Dude, where's my country?
;)

The only option is to send them back, or at least make a trade for all the jobs in Indiana lost in Mexico.

Dude, where's my country?
;)


It's dying daily because of idiots like Michael Moore and the invasion from Mexico.

It's dying daily because of idiots like Michael Moore and the invasion from Mexico.

So Michael Moore and a bunch of strawberry pickers have more influence than the executive branch and the congressional majority.
Ohhhh, if only it were true!
:D

In re: a post I deleted.

Do I offend? I am sorry.  My sarcasm was poorly termed.
  :-[

Well, here we go with the half-smarts.  Don't know much about the pilgrims, why the came, and how
they acted once they got here do you?  And you can be glib about the "shoot em" category, but
the problem is there are people who not only earnestly believe that is what should happen, but find
it a fun sport.  I think there is a problem with illegals, but I find a bigger problem with the fact that
it does tend perceived as a bigger problem with other than caucasian illegals.  Everything that is
being said about hispanic immigration was said about Jewish, Italian, and Irish(before they became
considered "white").

So what should've been done about the illegal Europeans who crossed the oceans to the borders of existing nations and caused inconvenience to the dominant Americans before the 17th Century? Should they have been shot?
If not the Pilgrims, who are you referring to here?

If not the Pilgrims, who are you referring to here?


How about the Spanish, French, and English who arrived before the pilgrims. 

i was thinking of the pilgrims but they all fit the description

I wonder how many people who are so against immigrants(legal and otherwise) had ancestors
who read these words, or had them read to them, when they came to the USA.  When you think
of why people come here(legal or otherwise) maybe you should first think of how it is you came
to be here, and why.  There is a tendency to demonize immigrants, but then look back teary eyed
at the thought of grands, and great grands who came here "without a job or a word of english"
                                  Give me your tired, your poor,
                                          Your huddled masses, yearning to breath free,
                                            The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
                                              Send these, the homeless, tempest tossed,
                                                  I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

I have a problem with any illegal.  Period.


This was in response to Cat's observation re Cubans.  Fact is, any Cuban reaching our soil is considered a political refugee and  given asylum.  Mexicans, on the other hand are inevitably considered "economic immigrant" coming simply to improve his/her material conditions of existance.  Cubans need not demonstrate that they were politically opressed or threatened with political repression, ALL others do.  So Cubans get a free pass BECAUSE OF THE WAY US IMMIGRATION LAW IS WRITTEN.  By the way, refugees from Nicaragua who were threatened with death by the Somosa regime ("he's a son-of-a-bi.ch, but he's OUR SOB") were deported back to certain death in Nicaragua.  If our immigration laws were fairer, that is to say less racist, more people might try to abide by them.  It is we who define "legality" in this context.  You anti-degos might want to look up the Chinese Excusion laws of the late 19th Century, and you might want to get over your racist fixation on Hispanics.  You might also check out the facts re the contribution to our economy of these "unwanted" salts of the earth (and check out the 1950's film by the same name, and the more recent film (One of the Hollywood Ten) about the making of the Salt of the Earth, both are true stories.

I wonder how many people who are so against immigrants(legal and otherwise) had ancestors
who read these words, or had them read to them, when they came to the USA.  When you think
of why people come here(legal or otherwise) maybe you should first think of how it is you came
to be here, and why.  There is a tendency to demonize immigrants, but then look back teary eyed
at the thought of grands, and great grands who came here "without a job or a word of english"
                                  Give me your tired, your poor,
                                          Your huddled masses, yearning to breath free,
                                            The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
                                              Send these, the homeless, tempest tossed,
                                                  I lift my lamp beside the golden door.


I understand what you are saying fully, and agree, but I cannot personally relate to this.

BOTH sides of my family, my mom AND my dad's families, were colonial families. Meaning, that they came here as British citizens prior to the American Revolution. My father's family came here in the 1600s, to escape debt(if my original ancestor who came to America had stayed in Britain, he'd have ended up in debtor's prison). The reasons for my mother's family coming here are somewhat unclear, although they did immediately settle upon a large lot of land in Georgia, so I'm guessing they were just colonists. I am about 15-20% Native American, but besides that my ancestory is all British(Welsh, English, Scottish). No German, Irish, Italian etc. So none of my ancestors were "immigrants" in the true sense.

I understand what you are saying fully, and agree, but I cannot personally relate to this.
.


Ones political views need to transend the personal.  We are overwhelmingly a nation of immigrants (who stole the land on which we live from those who actually owned it).

I personally think they should be shot.


I say just send them back to where they came from. It's the government's fault for letting them in, in the first place.

Ones political views need to transend the personal.  We are overwhelmingly a nation of immigrants (who stole the land on which we live from those who actually owned it).


I understand this, Carlos. I was just mentioning my background for the hell of it I guess.

And those folks from whom the land was stolen, well as I already said lots of that in my background(Cherokee).  ;)

I am curious, do you have any Taino in you?

Ones political views need to transend the personal.  We are overwhelmingly a nation of immigrants (who stole the land on which we live from those who actually owned it).


My ancestors didn't steal any land from my other ancestors (Cree).

Tanya

My ancestors didn't steal any land from my other ancestors (Cree).

Tanya


If they were European settlers, they did just that.  :D

What irks me about this thread is that anyone would even facetiously suggest "shooting" undocumented workers.  I think it displays a lot of violent psychology with which American children are poisoned at an early age!
http://www.nunstories.com/Nun-with-ruler.gif

What irks me about this thread is that anyone would even facetiously suggest "shooting" undocumented workers.  I think it displays a lot of violent psychology with which American children are poisoned at an early age!



No doubt man. Texas has a very violent culture. Hunting, football, etc. and in Southern culture a good parent is one who who gives their kids lots of "whippins". In the small town in which I used to live, my elementary principle once chastised my dad for not spanking, telling him "Spare the rod and spoil the child"(how does that make sense anyway?), and my dad told him to go F himself.

What irks me about this thread is that anyone would even facetiously suggest "shooting" undocumented workers.  I think it displays a lot of violent psychology with which American children are poisoned at an early age!
http://www.nunstories.com/Nun-with-ruler.gif


Yeah, that kid is definitely wrong, he's not using his head, but what irks me more is that GW agreed with him and said he likes that kind of thinking. Shows you how ignorant conservatives are.

No doubt man. Texas has a very violent culture. Hunting, football, etc. and in Southern culture a good parent is one who who gives their kids lots of "whippins". In the small town in which I used to live, my elementary principle once chastised my dad for not spanking, telling him "Spare the rod and spoil the child"(how does that make sense anyway?), and my dad told him to go F himself.

Good for your dad! I think this "spankin'" stuff is a crock.  It's got to go!
But yeah, I still remember Mr. T on the Morton Downey, Jr. Show.  He was on there with Mr. anti-tv-violence-pipsqueak.  Anyway, Mr. T was shouting,
"See, you look like the type that never wuz tough, never played FOOTBAW!  You don't like-a-Mr.T, just don't watch my show that's all!"  That's part of your violent Southern cultures.

Just a little food for thought - if you trace you family lineage back to around the birth of christ 2005 years ago then you will find that over 1 million trillion people have been responsible for your actual existence. More people than have actually ever existed !

This means that someone somewhere and at sometime has not exactly played clearly to the rule book of not begatting within the family circle. In essence we're all pretty much closely related somewhere down the line and there's a pretty darn good chance we've all got ancestors that were 'illegal' immagrants of some country or other.

My only experience on mexican immigrants in america was seeing them doing all the sheeshe jobs no-one else wanted to do in Austin, Texas a few years back. Bit like the Italians, Irish and Blacks when they first hit th shores of the USA.

Immigration is  about the fear people have about their culture changing but it's like trying to stop the tide coming in. In Europe we have had a massive influx of refugees from Eastern Europe, Africa and the far east and while there is always an element of culture-shock I have to admit my city has become a more interesting and diverse place to live in the last twenty years as  a result of immigration than it was when I was a kid.

One day we'll all be coloured - we always were, we just didn't realise !

Just a little food for thought - if you trace you family lineage back to around the birth of christ 2005 years ago then you will find that over 1 million trillion people have been responsible for your actual existence. More people than have actually ever existed !

This means that someone somewhere and at sometime has not exactly played clearly to the rule book of not begatting within the family circle. In essence we're all pretty much closely related somewhere down the line and there's a pretty darn good chance we've all got ancestors that were 'illegal' immagrants of some country or other.

My only experience on mexican immigrants in america was seeing them doing all the sheeshe jobs no-one else wanted to do in Austin, Texas a few years back. Bit like the Italians, Irish and Blacks when they first hit th shores of the USA.

Immigration is  about the fear people have about their culture changing but it's like trying to stop the tide coming in. In Europe we have had a massive influx of refugees from Eastern Europe, Africa and the far east and while there is always an element of culture-shock I have to admit my city has become a more interesting and diverse place to live in the last twenty years as  a result of immigration than it was when I was a kid.

One day we'll all be coloured - we always were, we just didn't realise !

White people like me are the real "coloreds" genetically speaking.

White people like me are the real "coloreds" genetically speaking.


Um, how so?  ???

Um, how so?  ???

Ask the Black Muslims.  The original man was of "negroid" characteristics.  Light skin, pointy noses, and blond hair are genetic mutations.
Maybe it's a crock....don't know really.
:-\\

Ask the Black Muslims.  The original man was of "negroid" characteristics.  Light skin, pointy noses, and blond hair are genetic mutations.
Maybe it's a crock....don't know really.
:-\\


Balogne, man.

The traits of different races are just how people evolved, mostly in relation to their climate.

Balogne, man.

The traits of different races are just how people evolved, mostly in relation to their climate.

Hey man, this isn't a genetics lesson this is a grudge and a political agenda!

Hey man, this isn't a genetics lesson this is a grudge and a political agenda!


;D Good point.

This was in response to Cat's observation re Cubans.  Fact is, any Cuban reaching our soil is considered a political refugee and  given asylum.  Mexicans, on the other hand are inevitably considered "economic immigrant" coming simply to improve his/her material conditions of existance.  Cubans need not demonstrate that they were politically opressed or threatened with political repression, ALL others do.  So Cubans get a free pass BECAUSE OF THE WAY US IMMIGRATION LAW IS WRITTEN.  By the way, refugees from Nicaragua who were threatened with death by the Somosa regime ("he's a son-of-a-bi.ch, but he's OUR SOB") were deported back to certain death in Nicaragua.  If our immigration laws were fairer, that is to say less racist, more people might try to abide by them.  It is we who define "legality" in this context.  You anti-degos might want to look up the Chinese Excusion laws of the late 19th Century, and you might want to get over your racist fixation on Hispanics.  You might also check out the facts re the contribution to our economy of these "unwanted" salts of the earth (and check out the 1950's film by the same name, and the more recent film (One of the Hollywood Ten) about the making of the Salt of the Earth, both are true stories.


Our friends of Italian descent should also be aware that a derogatory term for Italians was a short term for
WithOut Papers.  This was because of the high incidence of illegals coming in from Italy.  "But that is different"

Just to make my point clear I hate Illegals and want them out of this country.

I think everyone knows you think that way. And you said you're a Christian - didn't Jesus say not to hate people? Or is that irrelavent because it was two thousand years ago?

Just to make my point clear I hate Illegals and want them out of this country.


hate them enough to shoot them still?

I think everyone knows you think that way. And you said you're a Christian - didn't Jesus say not to hate people? Or is that irrelavent because it was two thousand years ago?


Speaking from a Christian point of view...Jesus hated no one and Christians are supposed to strive to be like Him.  Hate is not a good thing.  

As for the illegals, I am not sure what should be done about them.  The shouldn't be here illegally, as they are obviously breaking the law.  I think that they should go back to where they came from and enter legally.  I do know that some can't because of the way things are where they are from.  To tell you the honest truth, I am not sure how the situation should be handled.  I do know, though, that shooting them would be wrong.

 

As for the illegals, I am not sure what should be done about them.  The shouldn't be here illegally, as they are obviously breaking the law.  I think that they should go back to where they came from and enter legally.  I do know that some can't because of the way things are where they are from.  To tell you the honest truth, I am not sure how the situation should be handled.  I do know, though, that shooting them would be wrong.
Dagny, you took my answer! I completely agree with you, though I'd add that maybe some of the Hollywood rich people who take such advantage of them could do a good thing by helping them aquire "Legal" status :)

Just to make my point clear I hate Illegals and want them out of this country.


How many do you know? ???  Or do you hate them even though you don't know them? Do
you consider yourself a bigot?  Do you hate all illegals, or just Mexican(that is what this board
is about)? I think you are just short on experience, long on mouth.

I understand this, Carlos. I was just mentioning my background for the hell of it I guess.

And those folks from whom the land was stolen, well as I already said lots of that in my background(Cherokee).  ;)

I am curious, do you have any Taino in you?


I really don't know, but I would guess not.  My grandfather was born in Spain (Villadolid), but I don't know how long my grandmother's family was in Puerto Rico.  I would certainly be proud of it if I did, they were a gentle and peacefull people.

Just to make my point clear I hate Illegals and want them out of this country.


But you are ignoring my point, which was that our representatives DEFINE what (or who) is legal and what (or who) is not.  Why are all Cubans who reach our shores legal?  Why is there a quota for Mexicans?  Since Mexico is a good capitalist country, and our friend, one might think we would welcome Mexicans.  And since Cuba is an evil communist dictatorship, one might think we would be leery of allowing just any Cuban to get in.  Who knows that they aren't spies, terrorists, agents provacature?  In any case, shooting people for the non-violent crime of illegally crossing a boarder seems a bit extreme.

Can someone give me a good reason why illegal immigration is a good thing.  I'm still amazed some people are trying to say that with a straight face.

"Those law-abiding illegal Mexicans."  ::)

! I think this "spankin'" stuff is a crock.  It's got to go!


Oh God, not again.  Another liberal who thinks he knows best and wants to use the power of government to control other people.  It's not your right to tell other people with kids what they can or cannot do, and (I'm not saying you said this,) but their are people who want to use the government to force their parental views on others.

what's that even mean

Gee, it's a real mystery.

"Those law-abiding illegal Mexicans."  ::)


Yeah, and all those "law-abiding" Cubans who are now in OUR jails as a result of the Murial boat lift.

Oh God, not again.  Another liberal who thinks he knows best and wants to use the power of government to control other people.  It's not your right to tell other people with kids what they can or cannot do, and (I'm not saying you said this,) but their are people who want to use the government to forced their parental views on others.


Yeah! It's like the Hare Krishnas used to say, "A man can beat three things: his wife, his dog, and his drum."  Or was it, "a man can beat four things: his wife, his dog, his children, and his drum"?  Wait, "A man can beat five things: his wife, his dog, his children, his neighbors"....wait, I've got it here....among the things a man can beat...."

If they were European settlers, they did just that.  :D


I'm African-American, Cree, French Creole, and Welsh. I'm primarily African-American though. But, you do have some truth to it.

Tanya

hate them enough to shoot them still?

Yes because if you think about it, it could help keep them from coming.  Who is going to want to come if you are getting shot.

Yes because if you think about it, it could help keep them from coming.  Who is going to want to come if you are getting shot.

Hey, with out wishing to be too offensive to both parties, as obviously everyone's entitled to their opinion, but:

Have you considered being GWBush2004's MiniMe??  ;D ;D

Hey, with out wishing to be too offensive to both parties, as obviously everyone's entitled to their opinion, but:

Have you considered being GWBush2004'2 MiniMe??  ;D ;D


lol, not another GW.

lol, not another GW.

Yer, no disrespect meant, just noticed a similarity in feel to the post! Which reminds me, is there really a place called Mad Dog, Texas?

Yer, no disrespect meant, just noticed a similarity in feel to the post! Which reminds me, is there really a place called Mad Dog, Texas?


I was joking, that we don't need another GW, lol.

Have you considered being GWBush2004's MiniMe??  ;D ;D

No.  All I know is that we share the same views on this issue.  There could be things about us that the other doesn't like.  I'm too cool to be a MiniMe 8)

Yes because if you think about it, it could help keep them from coming.  Who is going to want to come if you are getting shot.


Good God, do you really delive this?  You want to shoot desperate people because they want a better life for themselves and their kids?  Ok, lets shoot them all, men, woman, and kids, even babys in arms.  Blast them all.  And lets give the whole country back to the people who originally owned it and all go back where we came from (like I was born in Patterson New Jersey).

Good God, do you really delive this?  You want to shoot desperate people because they want a better life for themselves and their kids?  Ok, lets shoot them all, men, woman, and kids, even babys in arms.  Blast them all.  And lets give the whole country back to the people who originally owned it and all go back where we came from (like I was born in Patterson New Jersey).


All some of us are saying is do it legally. It's as if you advocate breaking the law.

Tanya

Good God, do you really delive this?  You want to shoot desperate people because they want a better life for themselves and their kids?  Ok, lets shoot them all, men, woman, and kids, even babys in arms.  Blast them all.  And lets give the whole country back to the people who originally owned it and all go back where we came from (like I was born in Patterson New Jersey).

You are all forgetting that if we build a wall there will be less coming here illegally hence less to shoot.  And if we do what Apricot suggested and help Mexico make itself a better place maybe they wouldn't want to come here making less to shoot.

All some of us are saying is do it legally. It's as if you advocate breaking the law.

Tanya

That is really what I am saying.  Do it legally and I don't have a problem.

That is really what I am saying.  Do it legally and I don't have a problem.


But the QUOTAS!!! THE LOW QUOTAS!!!!!

But the QUOTAS!!! THE LOW QUOTAS!!!!!

Your point? ???

Your point? ???


The quotas are sooo low! So few CAN legally immigrate! SO FEW!

The quotas are sooo low! So few CAN legally immigrate! SO FEW!

That is why we work with Mexico to make it a better place.

The illegal mexicans don't come here to work, they come here to work the system.



It really ticks me off when people use such general statements.  I used to live in Texas, out in the country off the main roads.  There was a Mexican man who used to stop by our house twice a year.  Once on his way up north and once on his way back to Mexico.  He was following the crops and he walked the whole route.  He wasn't working the system and I don't know many Americans (myself included) who would walk that far to feed their family.

IMO, if they are here illegally, send them back.  The difference between the illegals flooding into our country now and the European settlers of old is that we have an established government now and there are certain guidelines to be followed.  If we travel into another country, we are expected to follow the guidelines to enter that country and if we choose to live there, learn the language, so why not ours?


You're saying that because the American Indians didn't have a government that the Europeans recognized that it was ok to come over here, kill them, take their land and make them learn English?
And are we expected to learn a foreign language if we go to a foreign country?  In most other countries there are many people who speak English.  It is in American where the vast majority of the population only speak English.

Yes because if you think about it, it could help keep them from coming.  Who is going to want to come if you are getting shot.
Just like the death penalty has lowered crime rate?  I don't think so.

You're saying that because the American Indians didn't have a government that the Europeans recognized that it was ok to come over here, kill them, take their land and make them learn English?
And are we expected to learn a foreign language if we go to a foreign country?  In most other countries there are many people who speak English.  It is in American where the vast majority of the population only speak English.
I don't think that crazymom meant anything like that about the indians. I'm caoncentrating and agreeing with the rest of what she stated. We go to other countries legally and they don't "Cater" to us with all the options on telephones...for Enlish press 1 and so on....I think we should be the same...learn the language and if if your here illegally...no matter WHERE you're from....go back from whence you came until you can be here legally  :)

If you don't like my ideas than tough sh!t.  The one thread on here is right this board is too liberal.

If the government would pay for bilingual Americans to go into mexico and spanish-speaking areas of the USA to teach people who just know Spanish how to speak English, then that would create jobs for Americans and help those Mexicans wwho had been taking more than they were giving backk to become contributing members of society. Of  course our government won't spend money on that when they can spend much more on Foreign wars.

I don't think that crazymom meant anything like that about the indians. I'm caoncentrating and agreeing with the rest of what she stated. We go to other countries legally and they don't "Cater" to us with all the options on telephones...for Enlish press 1 and so on....I think we should be the same...learn the language and if if your here illegally...no matter WHERE you're from....go back from whence you came until you can be here legally  :)


I agree with learning the language. English is America's language. It's a matter of succeeding here, not losing your cultural identity. You can still speak your language at home. But, in school, if your language is being hindered by not knowing the language, you fail.

Tanya

It really ticks me off when people use such general statements.  I used to live in Texas, out in the country off the main roads.  There was a Mexican man who used to stop by our house twice a year.  Once on his way up north and once on his way back to Mexico.  He was following the crops and he walked the whole route.  He wasn't working the system and I don't know many Americans (myself included) who would walk that far to feed their family.


So you like illegal immigrants coming across the border to take jobs the people currently on welfare use to take?  You are probably for giving the illegal immigrants who do come here to work the system benefits, you're probably opposed to Arizona's prop. 200 which keeps anyone who can't prove US citizenship from getting welfare and medicaid.  Am I right?

As someone who's had to apply recently through the US Visa scheme to bring a band over to SXSW in Texas to play ONE show for ZERO money for which pleasure I have had to pay $1,000 fee to expedite the applications, $750 to get a consultant in New York to fill in the forms, $100 a head for the visa interview and another $60 to get the visa posted to us before we leave in March and - the biggest cheek of all - $25 for a premium rate telephone call to the US Embassy in London just to book the immigration interviews I can assure you we considered coming over the border illegally  :o

Jeez I guess you guys have left Ellis Island a long way behind - heh heh. It was our bloody country anyway until you darn colonials started complaining about taxes and chucked us out. Two hundred years later you're still complaining about taxes but don't come having a go at us Brits now - harumph !!!  ;)

We love paying taxes we do, love it, can't give enough of our money to the government... well, thats not strictly true. Especially if you've got a good accountant  ;)

So you like illegal immigrants coming across the border to take jobs the people currently on welfare use to take?  You are probably for giving the illegal immigrants who do come here to work the system benefits, you're probably opposed to Arizona's prop. 200 which keeps anyone who can't prove US citizenship from getting welfare and medicaid.  Am I right?
No, you are wrong.  I did not address any of those issues.  My objection was to the one statement of yours that I quoted.

If you don't like my ideas than tough sh!t.  The one thread on here is right this board is too liberal.


you do know there's a lot of ultra-right wing boards out there. try them, you might feel at home.

you do know there's a lot of ultra-right wing boards out there. try them, you might feel at home.


I was gonna say, too liberal for what? Tom DeLay?
::)

I was gonna say, too liberal for what? Tom DeLay?
::)


Yeah this board is not liberal...like say the Democratic Underground (DU.)  The most partisan, hateful, New Jersey turnpike language, stupid, left-wing site on the web.

Check them out at the following link, it's the thread that was created the day Ronald W. Reagan died.  Check out some of those liberal compassionate posts.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1726149&mesg_id=1726149&page=

Hey, with out wishing to be too offensive to both parties, as obviously everyone's entitled to their opinion, but:

Have you considered being GWBush2004's MiniMe??  ;D ;D


Well, one thing is certain. It's taken GW months to find someone with whom he could truly identify. Finally he has found... a fourteen-year-old political amateur. Go GW!! You're in good company.

Yes because if you think about it, it could help keep them from coming.  Who is going to want to come if you are getting shot.


Wow, congratulations. You're a shoe-in for American Nazi's Shining Star Award.

Yeah this board is not liberal...like say the Democratic Underground (DU.)  The most partisan, hateful, New Jersey turnpike language, stupid, left-wing site on the web.

Check them out at the following link, it's the thread that was created the day Ronald W. Reagan died.  Check out some of those liberal compassionate posts.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1726149&mesg_id=1726149&page=
And I'm sure, without too much effort, I could just as easily dig up some Republican message board that has posts which say things that are just as hateful and mean-spirited about Bill and Hillary Clinton, or Ted Kennedy, or Tom Daschle. Not to mention that I wouldn't exactly call people like Michael Savage and Rush Limbaugh models of civility either. (To be fair, I would place Michael Moore in this category as well.)
      People on both sides of the fence are getting way too anal about politics these days. 
   

If you don't like my ideas than tough sh!t.  The one thread on here is right this board is too liberal.


Well I could say the same to you. Don't like the board? Don't like our "liberal" ideas? Then tough sh*t, go spout off your childish nonsense elsewhere. But if you're willing to act more like an adult, please stay and continue enlightening us with your revolutionary concepts.

The one thread on here is right this board is too liberal.


Then find a more conservative one.  Nobody is forcing you to visit this site.  If you don't like it, don't come here.  On the other hand, if you have arguments and facts to support them that might change our ideas, and want to present them, by all means feel welcome, at least from me.  But don't carp if I or others don't find your interpretation convincing.

So you like illegal immigrants coming across the border to take jobs the people currently on welfare use to take?  You are probably for giving the illegal immigrants who do come here to work the system benefits, you're probably opposed to Arizona's prop. 200 which keeps anyone who can't prove US citizenship from getting welfare and medicaid.  Am I right?


I can't help but notice that this response was totally off the point to which it supposedly responded.  I also notice that no one has addressed the issue of what makes one immigrant legal and another illegal.  Do we not need to visit the immigration laws?

Finally he has found... a fourteen-year-old political amateur.


Hmm...how much of a political expert are you?  How long have you been following politics?  How many elections have you voted in?  How much older are you than fourteen?

Hmm...how much of a political expert are you?  How long have you been following politics?  How many elections have you voted in?  How much older are you than fourteen?


Hmm... touché my friend. Never claimed to be an expert, but I have been politically aware active for about six years now. I've voted in one election, but participated in two. Also, I am myself an elected officer in my college's student government and in fact, I just returned from a regional parliamentary convention. However, let me ask you a few questions. How old are you? How much older are you than fourteen? Why are so many people who are much younger than you consistently able to school you so hard?

Now let's get real for a second. This kid is fourteen. How politically informed do you expect him to be compared with me? I didn't draw this comparison, you did. So why don't you think about that. And while you do, why don't you also think about how sick it is for a middle-aged man like yourself to encourage a fourteen-year-old's desire to see immigrants shot.

Get over it.  That was the past.  The Mexicans are the problem now.  And all illegals need to leave.
Pimpin--
  I haven't directly addressed you on this topic yet, and I'm not going to pile on you like some of the others in here. But I do have a legitimate question for you. You obviously have very strong feelings and genuine anger concerning this issue, and I was wondering if illegal immigration has affected you personally somehow. Has there been a large influx of illegal immigrants in your region lately? Or more importantly, have you had any personal problems with Mexicans, in your school or otherwise? Just curious.

AL-B

Well, one thing is certain. It's taken GW months to find someone with whom he could truly identify. Finally he has found... a fourteen-year-old political amateur. Go GW!! You're in good company.



Hmm...how much of a political expert are you? How long have you been following politics? How many elections have you voted in? How much older are you than fourteen?


I'm not the moderator, but I will say "Now cut that out!"  For a 14 year old, the kid has interesting ideas, and beyond that, age shouldn't be an issue, except that it provides experience and historical context, both of which are important in forming a political perspective.  FHF certainly laccks both, and may phrase issues in sometime unfortunate or extreme terms, but him I can cut some slack.  And you too McDonald, are sometimes a bit overboard even though I usually agree with you.

I guess I'm just in a mellow mood today.

Hmm... touché my friend. Never claimed to be an expert, but I have been politically aware active for about six years now. I've voted in one election, but participated in two. Also, I am myself an elected officer in my college's student government and in fact, I just returned from a regional parliamentary convention. However, let me ask you a few questions. How old are you? How much older are you than fourteen? Why are so many people who are much younger than you consistently able to school you so hard?

Now let's get real for a second. This kid is fourteen. How politically informed do you expect him to be compared with me? I didn't draw this comparison, you did. So why don't you think about that. And while you do, why don't you also think about how sick it is for a middle-aged man like yourself to encourage a fourteen-year-old's desire to see immigrants shot.

The gentleman known here as GWBush2004 is in his 40s.  However, the contemporary conservative polemical style is that of a smart@ss teenager, I must say.

I am quite chuffed by the fact that I've made it to - almost - my 40th year on this planet and still retain liberal and socialist values even though I perpetuate them within the capitalist paradigm of running three companies which I have built up from nothing. I'm also proud of the fact that my company always puts our employees at the top of our priorities (after making money, hey nobodies perfect!) and we are instigating a profit share scheme and share issue scheme that will allow the best workers to become controllers of the capital along with my fat capitalist arse ! I sincerely care and love the people who work 'with' not 'for' me and I respect that fact that without them all my ideas and drive would have come to nothing. I'm trying to create a small microcosm of how capitalismcould work in the macro environment and my company is a better place to go every day because of it from the receptionist to the analyst.

I'm no saint or anything as I want to make a success of my company as it is my life - we release records and manage bands and artists. I just came to being a capitalist late in life after years as a Union organiser and although I've had to bite my tongue a few times I 'hope' I'm keeping some form of social-capitalism alive in the way we treat, greet and rewards our employees. My hope is that when I die I can leave my business in the hands of the people who, like me, have cared and worked hard to build it to be the success it is becoming today. Better that than have my kids fighting over my bones !

Just my philosophy - thats all :)

Hmm... touché my friend. Never claimed to be an expert, but I have been politically aware active for about six years now. I've voted in one election, but participated in two. Also, I am myself an elected officer in my college's student government and in fact, I just returned from a regional parliamentary convention. However, let me ask you a few questions. How old are you? How much older are you than fourteen? Why are so many people who are much younger than you consistently able to school you so hard?


I'm 45 and have voted in every US Presidential election since 1980 (all republican except for 1992 when I voted Clinton.)  I am (do the math) around 31 years older.  And I don't recall anyone of this board "schooling" me on anything.

Now then when I wrote that, I didn't know he was 14.  And it really doesn't matter, because no one here is going to shoot illegal aliens.  Our corrupt government would come down on the side of the illegal alien before they did the patriotic US citizen.  Though it's nice to see projects like the minute men going into effect without crap from the government.

In case you're wondering, the minute man project is a group of around 500 US citizens who will be protecting the Arizona-Mexico border come April of this year.  Doing the job the federal government won't though should.

still retain liberal and socialist values

Wow.  Must people drop that when they move out of their parents' home and get a job.  You are a rare case.  Most socialists stop being socialists when they stop being teenagers.  Not the fact that most socialists in the 70's are now conservatives.  That cycle always continues.  The majority of young liberals become middle-aged conservatives.  Never got why, guess they grow up (not trying to sound offensive.)

I'm 45 and have voted in every US Presidential election since 1980 (all republican except for 1992 when I voted Clinton.)  I am (do the math) around 31 years older.  And I don't recall anyone of this board "schooling" me on anything.
And this phenomenon might not be without precedent?

Now then when I wrote that, I didn't know he was 14.  And it really doesn't matter, because no one here is going to shoot illegal aliens.  Our corrupt government would come down on the side of the illegal alien before they did the patriotic US citizen.  Though it's nice to see projects like the minute men going into effect without crap from the government.

In case you're wondering, the minute man project is a group of around 500 US citizens who will be protecting the Arizona-Mexico border come April of this year.  Doing the job the federal government won't though should.

Wow.  Must people drop that when they move out of their parents' home and get a job.  You are a rare case.  Most socialists stop being socialists when they stop being teenagers.  Not the fact that most socialists in the 70's are now conservatives.  That cycle always continues.  The majority of young liberals become middle-aged conservatives.  Never got why, guess they grow up (not trying to sound offensive.)

It depends on whether a man's convictions are of the ego or of the heart. You can get the egotists to believe anything that'll make them look good.  If you have actual beliefs, they won't change with your tax bracket. 

Yeah this board is not liberal...like say the Democratic Underground (DU.)  The most partisan, hateful, New Jersey turnpike language, stupid, left-wing site on the web.

Check them out at the following link, it's the thread that was created the day Ronald W. Reagan died.  Check out some of those liberal compassionate posts.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1726149&mesg_id=1726149&page=


If I were a malicious person with nothing better to do, I'd go onto "Liberal" messageboards and post antagonistic "Conservative" messages, then go to "Conservative" messageboards and post antagonistic "Liberal" messages.  Then sit back and enjoy how readily people will use any excuse to vilify others and justify themselves.

I don't recall anyone of this board "schooling" me on anything. Most people who get schooled do conveniently often forget. Whatever. Not really important.


Now then when I wrote that, I didn't know he was 14.  And it really doesn't matter, because no one here is going to shoot illegal aliens. I didn't know he was 14 either, until I peeped his profile. It wasn't exactly what he was saying that clued me that he might be a little young, but the way in which he said it that caused me to further inquire his background. I would expect most people to have seen the red flag as I did. However, it shouldn't matter. That sort of sentiment, that is, the kill 'em all passive hatred present in his post was unwise to have encouraged no matter what his age.


Wow.  Must people drop that when they move out of their parents' home and get a job.  You are a rare case.  Most socialists stop being socialists when they stop being teenagers.  Not the fact that most socialists in the 70's are now conservatives.  That cycle always continues.  The majority of young liberals become middle-aged conservatives.  Never got why, guess they grow up (not trying to sound offensive.)


I think you are trying to pinpoint Socialist beliefs as something of a petty juvenile rebellion against society. Teenagers adopt all sorts of beliefs and behaviours in order to seperate themselves, but if one has already reached mental adulthood and he still holds his Socialist ideals (even though his bank statement is meager), it is unlikely that his beliefs will shift simply because of the acquisistion of a little dough. I don't think it is at all correct to try and paint Liberalism as something sophomoric and disorderly, while at the same time trying to portray Conservatism as something grown-up and sensible. It simply isn't correct. There are just as many level-headed, Liberal adults who aren't paupers as there are the same in Conservatives.

I think you are trying to pinpoint Socialist beliefs as something of a petty juvenile rebellion against society. Teenagers adopt all sorts of beliefs and behaviours in order to seperate themselves, but if one has already reached mental adulthood and he still holds his Socialist ideals (even though his bank statement is meager), it is unlikely that his beliefs will shift simply because of the acquisistion of a little dough. I don't think it is at all correct to try and paint Liberalism as something sophomoric and disorderly, while at the same time trying to portray Conservatism as something grown-up and sensible. It simply isn't correct. There are just as many level-headed, Liberal adults who aren't paupers as there are the same in Conservatives.



Well said.

Well said.


Go raibh maith agat! That's Irish for "thanks!"

The gentleman known here as GWBush2004 is in his 40s.  However, the contemporary conservative polemical style is that of a smart@ss teenager, I must say.


While I must agree, I'm surprised you got away with that one.

I am quite chuffed by the fact that I've made it to - almost - my 40th year on this planet and still retain liberal and socialist values even though I perpetuate them within the capitalist paradigm of running three companies which I have built up from nothing. I'm also proud of the fact that my company always puts our employees at the top of our priorities (after making money, hey nobodies perfect!) and we are instigating a profit share scheme and share issue scheme that will allow the best workers to become controllers of the capital along with my fat capitalist arse ! I sincerely care and love the people who work 'with' not 'for' me and I respect that fact that without them all my ideas and drive would have come to nothing. I'm trying to create a small microcosm of how capitalismcould work in the macro environment and my company is a better place to go every day because of it from the receptionist to the analyst.

I'm no saint or anything as I want to make a success of my company as it is my life - we release records and manage bands and artists. I just came to being a capitalist late in life after years as a Union organiser and although I've had to bite my tongue a few times I 'hope' I'm keeping some form of social-capitalism alive in the way we treat, greet and rewards our employees. My hope is that when I die I can leave my business in the hands of the people who, like me, have cared and worked hard to build it to be the success it is becoming today. Better that than have my kids fighting over my bones !

Just my philosophy - thats all :)



Got a job for an almost 60 retiree?  You sound like the kind of employer I could get to actually like.  And I too am still a socialist living in a capitalist paradigm.

I'm 45 and have voted in every US Presidential election since 1980 (all republican except for 1992 when I voted Clinton.)  I am (do the math) around 31 years older.  And I don't recall anyone of this board "schooling" me on anything.

Now then when I wrote that, I didn't know he was 14.  And it really doesn't matter, because no one here is going to shoot illegal aliens.  Our corrupt government would come down on the side of the illegal alien before they did the patriotic US citizen.  Though it's nice to see projects like the minute men going into effect without crap from the government.

In case you're wondering, the minute man project is a group of around 500 US citizens who will be protecting the Arizona-Mexico border come April of this year.  Doing the job the federal government won't though should.

Wow.  Must people drop that when they move out of their parents' home and get a job.  You are a rare case.  Most socialists stop being socialists when they stop being teenagers.  Not the fact that most socialists in the 70's are now conservatives.  That cycle always continues.  The majority of young liberals become middle-aged conservatives.  Never got why, guess they grow up (not trying to sound offensive.)



Actually, although you have never admitted it, I have "schooled" you on several points of facts, such as the source of the very oxygen we breath.  But I guess those times don't count as "schooling".  Oh, and by the way, I am a good deal older than you, and I would have thought that a 45 year old would know more,  have greater skills in logic, and would be less apt to simply parrot an ideological line.

If those participants in the "Patriot Project" break the law (like shoot at or injure someone) I hope they get punished to the maximum extent of the law.

Some people, like me, were conservative when we became politically aware and drifted to the left.  In my case because I came to realize that the conservative rhetoric about equality and responsibility etc. was just that, rhetoric, and without either substance or commitment.  You seem to imply that youthful idealism and socialism go hand in hand, and that peoplle become jaded and less idealistic as they grow older.  If "growing up" means giving up humanitarian concerns and a desire for a better world, I hope I never "grow up" to achieve the cynisism, distrust, and inhumanity conservatives seem to ascribe to.

I am sorry if I offended anyone with my point of view.

I think I got into the habit of writing before thinking and thus writing some possibly offensive stuff.

I got a little too violent with my writings and I apologize.

Does that mean you think differently about the issue?
Or does it mean you now believe it was unwise to be so candid?

Does that mean you think differently about the issue?  Or does that mean you now think it wasn't wise to be so candid?

I have changed my mind when thinking about this issue.  However I still think we sould work with Mexico to make it a better place and put up a wall.

I have changed my mind when thinking about this issue.  However I still think we sould work with Mexico to make it a better place and put up a wall.


One of the most disgraceful acts that cause illegals to enter from Mexico is the American companies
who send jobs to Mexico and then pay slave wages, and utilize child labor.  Most of the people coming over really would prefer to stay at home with their families,  It is unforgivable that our own companies are making it necessary for them to leave.

One of the most disgraceful acts that cause illegals to enter from Mexico is the American companies
who send jobs to Mexico and then pay slave wages, and utilize child labor.  Most of the people coming over really would prefer to stay at home with their families,  It is unforgivable that our own companies are making it necessary for them to leave.

That is why we work with Mexico to make it a better place to live.

That is why we work with Mexico to make it a better place to live.


Well, we shouldn't have to ask Mexico (or any other country)to tell American Companies to do the right thing, but, sadly, that is the case.  The problem is that the government of Mexico is as corrupt as our own
but the people have less power to change things.  The most I think we here can do is put pressure on American companies that abuse its labor force.

well put.

One of the most disgraceful acts that cause illegals to enter from Mexico is the American companies
who send jobs to Mexico and then pay slave wages, and utilize child labor.  Most of the people coming over really would prefer to stay at home with their families,  It is unforgivable that our own companies are making it necessary for them to leave.


Which American companies are using child labor?

Which American companies are using child labor?


Nike has been cited a a major violator

I'm 45 and have voted in every US Presidential election since 1980 (all republican except for 1992 when I voted Clinton.) 
It's funny you mention that, but I have a good friend who is a staunch Republican and not only did he too vote for Clinton in '92, he even actively helped in his campaign (my friend is from Arkansas. He even told me that he actually met Clinton once in a men's room.) Usually we avoid discussing politics, but when we do we usually have civil and intelligent conversations. Occasionally he'll send me an e-mail with conservative leanings just to try and needle me. (He even once sent me a "gift" subscription to the National Review, who in turn put me on a mailing list that for the next few months got me a sh*t-ton of right-wing junk mail, the smart-@ss.)

Nike has been cited a a major violator

I think "child labor" has been the "don't ask, don't tell" policy of corporate America for decades.

Nike has been cited a a major violator


How young?  Are they paid the same wages as the adults?

It's funny you mention that, but I have a good friend who is a staunch Republican and not only did he too vote for Clinton in '92, he even actively helped in his campaign (my friend is from Arkansas. He even told me that he actually met Clinton once in a men's room.)


I never campaigned for him but voted for him simply on the "read my lips, no new taxes" garbage.  Bush Sr. put out (who knew Clinton would raise them even higher.)

Looking back I still wouldn't vote for Bush Sr.  If I had the chance I'd go with Perot.

I never campaigned for him but voted for him simply on the "read my lips, no new taxes" garbage Bush Sr. put out (who knew Clinton would raise them even higher.)

Looking back I still wouldn't vote for Bush Sr.  If I had the chance I'd go with Perot.

Ross for Boss!

I like "Garbage Bush."  Garbage H.W. Bush, Garbage W. Bush...

I have changed my mind when thinking about this issue.  However I still think we sould work with Mexico to make it a better place and put up a wall.


Intelligence allows for a change, good for you, but I don't like walls.

Intelligence allows for a change, good for you, but I don't like walls.

Maybe the wall isn't the best idea.

How young?  Are they paid the same wages as the adults?


Does it really matter?  When adults are paid $20 a week for 48 hours work making sneakers that cost upwards of $50 here, it hardly matters if the kids, some as young as 6, get the same pay as their parants, now does it?  And if you were the parant of one of those kids, wouldn't you want to go somewhere, anywhere, to make a living wage for yourself and family from your own labor? 

Maybe the wall isn't the best idea.



Not IMHO.  Better would be to regularize and make easier the entrance of foreigners willing to work as a short-term solution, and working with other governments to encourage both their development AND the development of fair labor standards that insure every working adult a livable wage.  But then, we need that here too.

Not IMHO.  Better would be to regularize and make easier the entrance of foreigners willing to work as a short-term solution, and working with other governments to encourage both their development AND the development of fair labor standards that insure every working adult a livable wage.  But then, we need that here too.

Very good point.

Does it really matter?  When adults are paid $20 a week for 48 hours work making sneakers that cost upwards of $50 here, it hardly matters if the kids, some as young as 6, get the same pay as their parants, now does it?  And if you were the parant of one of those kids, wouldn't you want to go somewhere, anywhere, to make a living wage for yourself and family from your own labor? 


Of course it matters how old a child is, and whether they have pay equity with adults.  There's nothing categorically wrong with children of a certain age working, but I don't see any reason they shouldn't receive the same pay for a given job that an adult is given.

And how is a 'living wage' determined and to what jobs should it apply?  Should every job pay a sufficient wage to raise a family of four?  If so, to what standard?  Should every family be able to afford a new pair of $100 sneakers every year?  The latest iToys?

Of course it matters how old a child is, and whether they have pay equity with adults.  There's nothing categorically wrong with children of a certain age working, but I don't see any reason they shouldn't receive the same pay for a given job that an adult is given.

And how is a 'living wage' determined and to what jobs should it apply?  Should every job pay a sufficient wage to raise a family of four?  If so, to what standard?  Should every family be able to afford a new pair of $100 sneakers every year?  The latest iToys?


The problem is as DC pointed out, that there are children as young as six(I would bet some younger) being
paid 15-20 dollars a week for 12 hour days.  They shouldn't receiving the same pay because they shouldn't
be forced to work at all.  One of the reasons they are is because the whole family has to work because they
are being paid at below subsistence level, the companies pay the children the same wage as the parents.
but the money paid to the parent is not enough to feed, clothe, and house the family.  The same was true
here in the USA. Ever hear of the Lowell/Lawrence Mills? Homestead? Matewan?
To suggest this about these families want $100 sneakers and latest itoys is beyond naive.  They are doing what they do to survive.

The problem is as DC pointed out, that there are children as young as six(I would bet some younger) being
paid 15-20 dollars a week for 12 hour days.  They shouldn't receiving the same pay because they shouldn't
be forced to work at all.  One of the reasons they are is because the whole family has to work because they
are being paid at below subsistence level, the companies pay the children the same wage as the parents.
but the money paid to the parent is not enough to feed, clothe, and house the family.  The same was true
here in the USA. Ever hear of the Lowell/Lawrence Mills? Homestead? Matewan?
To suggest this about these families want $100 sneakers and latest itoys is beyond naive.  They are doing what they do to survive.

Agreed.  Any products made with child or imprisoned labor should not be allowed to be imported into the U.S.

Agreed.  Any products made with child or imprisoned labor should not be allowed to be imported into the U.S.


Oh, but heaven forbid the cost of sneakers should rise!

People were talking generally about "children" working, so looking for clarification, I asked how young were we talking about and whether they were earning the same wage as adults.  A sixteen year-old to me is a child.  But I see no reason that 16 year olds should categorically not be able to have a jobs.  If they do, I think they should be paid the same as an adult does for the same job.

The issue of 6 year olds hadn't even been raised, that's why it made no sense for DC to ask "what does it matter how old they are?".

Perhaps we ought to review the sequence of messages.

As far as the "living wage" concept, I should have made it clearer that my issue was with that term as a general concept, rather than in reference to overseas sneaker company workers.  I was looking for clarification on what people's view of a "living wage" means, and to what jobs it "should" apply.  There are many people who believe that every job should pay a wage that provides a certain minimum lifestyle.

I think the 'living wage' concept is good and should apply to all jobs however crappy but, as you say in an earlier post, it might be difficult to determine what that level should be.

Sufficient to provide shelter and food for that person only or for their whole family?  And should it be better than simply shelter.  how essential is a car, a TV, a computer for a family.  I was asked a few years ago if I was poor because I didn't have a video recorder!  The idea that it wasn't necessary to have one to enjoy life seemed a concept the person couldn't understand.

I think the 'living wage' concept is good and should apply to all jobs however crappy but, as you say in an earlier post, it might be difficult to determine what that level should be.

Sufficient to provide shelter and food for that person only or for their whole family?  And should it be better than simply shelter.  how essential is a car, a TV, a computer for a family.  I was asked a few years ago if I was poor because I didn't have a video recorder!  The idea that it wasn't necessary to have one to enjoy life seemed a concept the person couldn't understand.


I don't think every job should have to pay enough for someone to live on independently.  Certain jobs pay enough that a kid living at home and going to school full-time can make a nice bit of supplemental income.  I don't think there's anything inhumane about that.  That people who are trying to raise children find themselves in circumstances where they are forced to take those kinds of jobs is tragic and unacceptable.  But that to me is a separate issue.

I don't think every job should have to pay enough for someone to live on independently.  Certain jobs pay enough that a kid living at home and going to school full-time can make a nice bit of supplemental income.  I don't think there's anything inhumane about that.  That people who are trying to raise children find themselves in circumstances where they are forced to take those kinds of jobs is tragic and unacceptable.  But that to me is a separate issue.


Sure.  But to me there is a difference between a school kid looking for a part-time job for a bit of spare cash and someone in full time work expecting to provide for a family (or even just themself)

Sure.  But to me there is a difference between a school kid looking for a part-time job for a bit of spare cash and someone in full time work expecting to provide for a family (or even just themself)


That's exactly my point.  Two different circumstances, two different types of job.

Any products made with child or imprisoned labor should not be allowed to be imported into the U.S.


I agree.

Of course it matters how old a child is, and whether they have pay equity with adults.  There's nothing categorically wrong with children of a certain age working, but I don't see any reason they shouldn't receive the same pay for a given job that an adult is given.

And how is a 'living wage' determined and to what jobs should it apply?  Should every job pay a sufficient wage to raise a family of four?  If so, to what standard?  Should every family be able to afford a new pair of $100 sneakers every year?  The latest iToys?


No, there is nothing categorically wrong with young people working, in fact, it can be a good thing, depending on age and the job.  But my guess is that you are approaching the question from first world rather than 3rd world labor standards.  There, kids work in mines (Bolivia), run dangerous machinery (widespread), harvest pesticide-saturated crops etc. and are not paid what their parants make.

Here in Vermont we have a Living Wage Coalition that calculates how much an individual or family of various sizes need to make to live above the federal poverty line here.  That calculation includes the bare bones life style, rent, food, med/dent care, transportation etc, no frills.  So yes, everyone who works should have the right to at least a bare bones life style.  That was the original idea of minimum wage.

I've stated before that I think we are going about this minimum wage thing@ss backward.  What we should
do is tie a Maximum Wage to the Minimum Wage.  If our illustrious elected officials were told that their wage could not be more than say three times the wage of the lowest paid civil servant, you would see a rise in the standard of living of file clerks.  Publicly traded companies would do better to follow the pre-Fiorino Hewlett-Packard model of business, or looked to Aaron Feurstein instead of lee Iacoca, Ken Lay, or Jack Welch.

I'm not sure that Unilever has maintained the policy, but when Ben & Gerry's Ice Cream was owned by Ben and Gerry, the top salary was restricted to, I think, ten times the wage of the lowest paid worker, and there was, I think, a profit-sharing scheme in effect.  Their model was "compassionate capitalism". 

I'm not sure that Unilever has maintained the policy, but when Ben & Gerry's Ice Cream was owned by Ben and Gerry, the top salary was restricted to, I think, ten times the wage of the lowest paid worker, and there was, I think, a profit-sharing scheme in effect.  Their model was "compassionate capitalism". 


That happens when workers are respected.  The problem we have in the USA is getting the workers
to respect themselves.

I'm not sure that Unilever has maintained the policy, but when Ben & Gerry's Ice Cream was owned by Ben and Gerry, the top salary was restricted to, I think, ten times the wage of the lowest paid worker, and there was, I think, a profit-sharing scheme in effect.  Their model was "compassionate capitalism". 


That's because both were environmental socialists living in Vermont.  Still good ice cream.

And it's Ben & Jerry.

That's because both were environmental socialists living in Vermont.  Still good ice cream.

And it's Ben & Jerry.

Yeah, "Gerry" would be Gerry Rafferty
http://im.edirectory.co.uk/products/1784/images/l162.jpg

Gerry Adams?
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9804/10/n.ireland.reax/link.gerry.adams.jpg

That's because both were environmental socialists living in Vermont.  Still good ice cream.

And it's Ben & Jerry.


But by eating B&J's -- or even by acknowledging its quality -- aren't you directly or indirectly supporting an ideology you disagree with?  How do you justify that ethically?  Is the fleeting pleasure of a quart of ice cream worth sacrificing deep-seated political principles?

IMO, there cannot be a "standard" minimum wage across the country.  There needs to be a "cost of living" increase based on the cost of living in a certain area.  As has been pointed out before, (I can't remember exactly who or which state it was) you can live rather comfortably on $30K in some of the "cheaper" states, but in states such as New York or California, you'd be barely getting by on that salary.  Heck, if my husband and I were to move to Cali from here, money would be tight and we're living pretty good here.

Just my $.02...


I have no problem with this.  That's why I mentioned how the Vermont Living Wage Coailition figures out what a living wage needs to be IN VERMONT.  Obviously, it would be much higher in Los Angeles, D.C., or NYC.

That's because both were environmental socialists living in Vermont.  Still good ice cream.

And it's Ben & Jerry.


Thanks for the spelling correction, I'll point out your spelling and grammatical gaffs if you wish, and there are plenty of them.

I'm just wndering though, as a die-hard conservative are you as successful as those 2 "environment socialists" from Vermont?  Seems they did fairly well for themselves in your capitalist system.

http://www.alpinesurvival.com/immigration.html  >:(

Shoot them.

And the pilgrams werent in america 100 years ago. ;D

Euros coming here in 30s, 40s, 50s, did so by legal means. They went through Ellis Island and went about it in the proper manner. Mexicans seem to think america is theirs, they dont come here to be americans. They screwed their country up with their filth, now they want the same for America.

http://www.alpinesurvival.com/immigration.html >:(

Shoot them.

And the pilgrams werent in america 100 years ago. ;D

Euros coming here in 30s, 40s, 50s, did so by legal means. They went through Ellis Island and went about it in the proper manner. Mexicans seem to think america is theirs, they dont come here to be americans. They screwed their country up with their filth, now they want the same for America.


To the contrary. The European immigration wave of the 1800s includes lots of illegals. The ethnic slur against Italians, "wop", do you have any idea where that comes from? It means "without papers".

And that site you linked must be made by a total nutbar.