I thought I'd bring the topic back so I could put my two cents in on it.


I am a reluctant supporter of the Death Penalty. If it is cheaper than life in prison, will prevent further catastophe and if no more good can be gained out of the offender living that is.  Also, only murder, child molestation, treason, and terrorism can put in the the picture, along with multiple counts of adult sex/violent crimes that add up to more than the perp's life. 

BUT I must say I loathe the vengeful, hateful attitude many pro-dp people have.  Some are almost as sick as the criminals!  Others just feel strongly about it because it personally affects them. 

I'd say about 50% of high crime cases point to the death sentence, but in today's justice world it should only be administered 20% of the time or so.

Also, only murder, child molestation, treason, and terrorism

Child molestation?  Tell that to those dam* democrats down here in Georgia who are trying to block HB-45, a bill filed by representative Timothy Bearden which would make crimes like that against children punishable by death.  Currently only Louisiana has the death penalty for that.

Murder, treason, and terrorism, if proven beyond a reasonable doubt, always deserve the death penalty as long as the offender is 16 or older and not mentally retarded.

First, given the legal expenses to the state of all the appeals that are suppose to protect the convicted innocents, life is cheaper.

Second, you need to concider how many recent death row inmates have been exhonerated by advances in DNA testing and ask how many innocents were executed BEFORE those tests were available, and how many untested convicts still sit on death row.  Remember that the Repub governor of Ill. last year placed a moritorium on executions for that reason.

Last, do we teach people that it is wrong to kill people by killing people?

First, given the legal expenses to the state of all the appeals that are suppose to protect the convicted innocents, life is cheaper.

Second, you need to concider how many recent death row inmates have been exhonerated by advances in DNA testing and ask how many innocents were executed BEFORE those tests were available, and how many untested convicts still sit on death row.  Remember that the Repub governor of Ill. last year placed a moritorium on executions for that reason.

Last, do we teach people that it is wrong to kill people by killing people?


That is a very convincing argument, Don Carlos.  :)

The United States is the only civilised country that would kill an individual under the age of 18 years old.

Dammit.. if i can't vote then why the hell should i be put to death for a crime i may or may not have commited. Because we can never be 100% sure if somebody has commited a crime i think the death penalty should only remain for high profile cases. In the same way that we used to hang & behead People here in Blighty to give the public a good show. A serial killer for instance like Manson or Hadden Clarke would be Executed. However an individual that had killed somebody in a moment of passion should not. My godmothers son was murderd in a parking lot, and in the state of Missorui the death penalty can apply.. however they were glad that the death penalty was not given because a life for a life dosen't make things better.

The United States is the only civilised country that would kill an individual under the age of 18 years old.

Dammit.. if i can't vote then why the hell should i be put to death for a crime i may or may not have commited. Because we can never be 100% sure if somebody has commited a crime i think the death penalty should only remain for high profile cases. In the same way that we used to hang & behead People here in Blighty to give the public a good show. A serial killer for instance like Manson or Hadden Clarke would be Executed. However an individual that had killed somebody in a moment of passion should not. My godmothers son was murderd in a parking lot, and in the state of Missorui the death penalty can apply.. however they were glad that the death penalty was not given because a life for a life dosen't make things better.


Sorry to hear of your family's loss, and glad to hear that they have forgone vengance.

All hatred creates is more hate. I believe Revenge can be exacted say if a Friend did something stupid like got drunk and was sick on your floor. Hell you should make him suffer.. LOL.. tell him he picked a fight with a big tough guy. Tell him he slept with some real ugly chick.. if some asshole keys your car.. if you catch him.. key his car. But when it comes to major things.. we have no real control over them. All hatred creates is more hatred and then you forget who you are..Read my sig line..

My godmothers son was murderd in a parking lot, and in the state of Missorui the death penalty can apply.. however they were glad that the death penalty was not given because a life for a life dosen't make things better.


I really am sorry to hear that, Andy.  :(

Lethal injection only.

Lethal injection only.


Absolutely.  I loathe torture, for good or bad people.

Anybody ever hear the song There were Roses about the "troubles" ?  It about a Catholic and Protestant who are good friend.  One is killed.  Random vengance is visited on the other.  One line goes "An eye for an eye, and another eye for another eye 'till everyone is blind", and then there "The ones who give the orders are not the ones to die, its Scott, and McDonald, and the likes of you and I". 

STOP THE KILLING

STOP KILLING IN MY NAME

Anybody ever hear the song There were Roses about the "troubles" ?  It about a Catholic and Protestant who are good friend.  One is killed.  Random vengance is visited on the other.  One line goes "An eye for an eye, and another eye for another eye 'till everyone is blind", and then there "The ones who give the orders are not the ones to die, its Scott, and McDonald, and the likes of you and I". 

STOP THE KILLING

STOP KILLING IN MY NAME

They certainly are unwilling to examine what makes a violent society and change it in the affirmative.  Michael Moore posed the question, if both the U.S. and Canada allow citizens to own guns why is the per capita gun murder rate in the U.S. many times higher in the U.S?  That's one place where the Right fears to tread.  They just blame the whole thing on "liberals" and scamper.

They certainly are unwilling to examine what makes a violent society and change it in the affirmative. Michael Moore posed the question, if both the U.S. and Canada allow citizens to own guns why is the per capita gun murder rate in the U.S. many times higher in the U.S? That's one place where the Right fears to tread. They just blame the whole thing on "liberals" and scamper.


My main beef with the death penalty is the attitude behind it. Many of its advocates are as sick as the people who get executed!

Anybody ever hear the song There were Roses about the "troubles" ?

Yes, I know that one - a real tear-jerker if ever there was one.  I won't bother to restate my opinion about the death penalty as with one exception it's exactly what you said in your first reply.  The one exception is that I think it should be possible for the defendent to request the death penalty for capital cases - if they think that a life sentence is going to be too hard to see out, and would rather die in prison sooner rather than later, then let them.


My main beef with the death penalty is the attitude behind it. Many of its advocates are as sick as the people who get executed!

Absolutely - especially those who "enjoy" the spectacle of it :(

Yes, I know that one - a real tear-jerker if ever there was one.  I won't bother to restate my opinion about the death penalty as with one exception it's exactly what you said in your first reply.  The one exception is that I think it should be possible for the defendent to request the death penalty for capital cases - if they think that a life sentence is going to be too hard to see out, and would rather die in prison sooner rather than later, then let them.
Absolutely - especially those who "enjoy" the spectacle of it :(


I've said before, I don't think death penalty is necassarily bad because it saves taxpayers money while putting the criminal out of his/her misery (and also giving the victims peace of mind), but the attitude many right-wingers have on it is SICK and I don't share it.  Watching executions sounds about as fun as poking yourself with a needle.

And IF it is administered it should never be any worse than lethal injection.  Drawing and quartering is a quarter as bad as murdering an innocent and almost every bit as sick.

But the death penalty dosen't save money. The average individual on death row will cost far more than the average individual encarcerated for like

But the death penalty dosen't save money. The average individual on death row will cost far more than the average individual encarcerated for like


Yeah I know. If it is cheaper though I have no problem with it if the criminal asks for it or if no good can be gotten out of them living.  Also if they are dangerous and can do more harm even if locked up.  Why are you pro-dp (I've heard you say you were)?

But like I said, lethal injection ONLY.  Nothing sadistic. 

Just kill them all.

Just kill them all.


Simplistic

Yeah I know. If it is cheaper though I have no problem with it if the criminal asks for it or if no good can be gotten out of them living.  Also if they are dangerous and can do more harm even if locked up.  Why are you pro-dp (I've heard you say you were)?

But like I said, lethal injection ONLY.  Nothing sadistic. 


I said i was Pro - DP if it could be a) proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the person was guilty, b) if the individual posed a threat when and if they were released, c) if they showed no remorse for the crime they commited, d) if it would cost far more to incarcerate them for life (which in 95% of cases it would not and finally if it was a high profile case. I think the examples i used were Hadden Clarck and Charles Manson.

Simplistic


Yet more accurate than the all that amount of "thought" that says it shouldn't be allowed.

Tell it to these guys. The fact is that many a score has been settled by police, and many verdicts have been brought forward with "facts" manufactured in order to give the people the blood they crave.  I don't trust the justice system.  Careful, you or yours may be next.

innocenceproject.org/

Here is just a sample of convictions in Boston alone.  Police error or malfeasance was the cause of all
of these convictions.  This is some, by no means all.

2004 - Laurence Adams
Served 30 years for 1972 murder of MBTA police officer
Cleared because key witness was jailed when he claims Adams confessed to him at Dorchester house
Case unsolved

2004 - Stephan Cowans
Served 6 1/2 years for 1997 shooting of Boston Police officer with cop's own gun
Cleared due to error by BPD fingerprint technician and DNA
Case unsolved

2004 - Anthony Powell
Served nearly 13 years for 1991 kidnapping and rape.
Cleared through DNA
Case unsolved

2003 - Shawn Drumgold
Served 15 years for 1988 shooting of 12-year-old girl
Cleared when witnesses recanted
Case unsolved


2000/2001 - Joseph Salvati
Served 33 years for 1965 gangland hit
Cleared because of Boston FBI corruption
Case unsolved

2000/2001 - Peter Limone
Served 35 years for 1965 gangland hit
Cleared because of Boston FBI corruption
Case unsolved

2000/2001 - Henry Tameleo
Died in prison in 1985 after serving 20 years for 1965 gangland hit
Cleared because of Boston FBI corruption
Case unsolved

2000/2001 -Louis M. Greco
Died in prison in 1995 after serving 30 years for 1965 gangland hit
Cleared because of Boston FBI corruption
Case unsolved

1999 - Marlon Passley
Served four years in prison for 1995 murder
Cleared because of bad eyewitness identification
New indictment filed against John Tibbs; case still open

1999 - Donnell Johnson
Served five years for 1994 murder of nine-year-old boy
Cleared after new witnesses came forward in federal probe.
Two men indicted for slaying in 2001; case still open


1995 - Christopher Harding
Served nearly seven years for 1990 conviction of attempted murder of Boston police officer
Cleared when police misconduct surfaced
Status unclear


1986 Bobby Joe Leaster
Served 15 1/2 years in prison for 1970 murder of shopkeeper
Cleared through ballistics evidence and new witnesses
Status unclear

1982 - Lawyer Johnson
Spent 10 years in prison/originally sentenced to death
Cleared when new witness came forward
Status unclear

I said i was Pro - DP if it could be a) proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the person was guilty, b) if the individual posed a threat when and if they were released, c) if they showed no remorse for the crime they commited, d) if it would cost far more to incarcerate them for life (which in 95% of cases it would not and finally if it was a high profile case. I think the examples i used were Hadden Clarck and Charles Manson.


You have the same view on it as I do, Alchoholica :)

Aside from any arguements of the money saved or spent..if it cost MORE to execute in a death penalty case FINE WITH ME...some people earned the death penalty..those who can't see it have weak arguements when it comes to  THE PERSON DID IT witnessing..people caught red handed or proven without a doubt...ie the night Stalker(LA), and the like

Aside from any arguements of the money saved or spent..if it cost MORE to execute in a death penalty case FINE WITH ME...some people earned the death penalty..those who can't see it have weak arguements when it comes to  THE PERSON DID IT witnessing..people caught red handed or proven without a doubt...ie the night Stalker(LA), and the like


Your right, the $$$ isn't the issue.  The issue is a moral one.  The bible says "vengance is mine sayith the Lord"  and yet we take vengance on both the obviously guilty and inumerable cases that are in doubt - ie have not been verified by DNA evidance.  One innocent killed is one to many.

Regardless of who may recant thirty years later, the type of people who actually get sentenced to death are they type of people the establishment power structure doesn't like anyway!!  They don't care if black guys from housing projects get sent to the death house on bogus charges!  Good riddance!  That's the attitude underlying the Texas-style pro-death penalty mentality!
>:(

Yet more accurate than the all that amount of "thought" that says it shouldn't be allowed.


Well accurate or inaccruate doesn't have much to do with it for me.  Many, maybe most people who disagree with the DP think that way mostly because of their own individual values, not some objective analysis.  If I was going to base my view only on a practical analysis, there are a lot of people 'criminal' or not that I would want killed.  But it's against my values to condone deliberately killing people except maybe out of immediate self defense.  If somebody killed a loved one on mine, I would probably want to kill them myself, but that's my emotional reaction.  I wouldn't want society's decisions about what is acceptable civilised conduct to be based on people's base emotional urges.

Well accurate or inaccruate doesn't have much to do with it for me.  Many, maybe most people who disagree with the DP think that way mostly because of their own individual values, not some objective analysis.  If I was going to base my view only on a practical analysis, there are a lot of people 'criminal' or not that I would want killed.  But it's against my values to condone deliberately killing people except maybe out of immediate self defense.  If somebody killed a loved one on mine, I would probably want to kill them myself, but that's my emotional reaction.  I wouldn't want society's decisions about what is acceptable civilised conduct to be based on people's base emotional urges.


Very well put. 

Well accurate or inaccruate doesn't have much to do with it for me.  Many, maybe most people who disagree with the DP think that way mostly because of their own individual values, not some objective analysis.  If I was going to base my view only on a practical analysis, there are a lot of people 'criminal' or not that I would want killed.  But it's against my values to condone deliberately killing people except maybe out of immediate self defense.  If somebody killed a loved one on mine, I would probably want to kill them myself, but that's my emotional reaction.  I wouldn't want society's decisions about what is acceptable civilised conduct to be based on people's base emotional urges.

I go back to one of my original points.
There is a difference between vengeance and justice.
That's why I can't stand guys like John Walsh.  Walsh's son Adam was murdered by Ottis Toole back in 1981.  Yes, this is the kind of gruesome crime from which I would expect no parent to fully recover.
However, Walsh has made millions with "America's Most Wanted" putting his wrathful mug up there on the tube for 20 years and getting driving the public hysterical about "get those bade guys!"  This is the kind of exploitation the right-wing uses to emotionally blackmail people who object to draconian sentencing and insist upon adequate legal counsel for the accused. 
Walsh has done much good by helping to get a lot of those fugitives caught via his TV programs.  However, he has also contributed to they hyper-emotionalization and bloodthirst we see in criminal justice issues in contemporary America.