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Subject: Alberta, Canada

Written By: Mergal on 01/14/05 at 7:46 am

...

Subject: Re: Alberta, Canada

Written By: sputnikcorp on 01/14/05 at 7:49 am

newfoundland has more reason to seperate from canada than alberta. we lose alberta, there goes our oil and beef...

Subject: Re: Alberta, Canada

Written By: GWBush2004 on 01/14/05 at 10:13 am

If it wants to go, let it go.

Subject: Re: Alberta, Canada

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 01/14/05 at 10:20 am

Is there a secession movement in AB?

Is far as Newfoundland goes, why would they want to secede?  Isn't Newfoundland the poorest province?  Methinks without the Canadian welfare state, Newfoundland would be depopulated.  You'd get thousands of bedraggled Newfies passing through Nova Scotia and New Brunswick on the way to Maine.  Mind you, if Canada had no welfare state, there'd be plenty of migrants from the other Maritimes as well..

Subject: Re: Alberta, Canada

Written By: sputnikcorp on 01/14/05 at 10:43 am

many newfoundlanders feel they've been let down by the federal government when the department of fisheries allowed foreign trawlers to rape the cod banks and the government had said for years that the cod stocks are not at risk, they were and the atlantic cod off of newfoundland was put on the endangered list. cod fishing was banned in '92 and sent many small communities in newfoundland under. they are the poorest province thanks to the canadian government.

just two weeks ago, the premier of newfoundland ordered all canadian flags to be taken down from government buildings as a protest to ottawa in regards to the high unemployment rate due to the demise of the fisheries. there's been talk about seperation before but it's just that, talk. newfoundland was a poor british colony prior to confederation in 1949, they go independant again, they have no chance.

Subject: Re: Alberta, Canada

Written By: McDonald on 01/14/05 at 2:05 pm

I'm tired of this whiney crap from every province. Every time a province gets a little upset, there's talk of seccession... Can't they be grown-ups and realise that if confederation goes, everyone is screwed? Do you really want to be the 51st state? If not, then I suggest you protect sovereignty by giving up notions of separatism. Alberta will not make it without Canada, and vice versa. Same with Québec and Newfoundland and B.C. All the provinces must remain together if they are to remain strong. The Commonwealth is over but for crappy tournaments and aid operations, so Britain will not be there to pat our @sses anymore. If confederation fails then each province will either have to join the U.S. or beg Europe for EU inclusion. Is that what these people want? Over such little issues, as well. Alberta's beef (excuse the pun) is with cultural divisions between East and West. I don't quite think that is quite enough to justify breaking with Ottawa, especially since so many Albertans do not care or identify with this attitude. Most Albertans are firstly proud Canadians. The only seperatist movement that has any real power is that of Québec, and we've managed to stave that off for quite some time.

(IMO it must not be allowed to occur, and I know I am breaking with my liberal mates with this one).

BTW, I am not talking to anyone on the board. It's the understood "you" whom I address.

Subject: Re: Alberta, Canada

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 01/14/05 at 2:37 pm


many newfoundlanders feel they've been let down by the federal government when the department of fisheries allowed foreign trawlers to rape the cod banks and the government had said for years that the cod stocks are not at risk, they were and the atlantic cod off of newfoundland was put on the endangered list. cod fishing was banned in '92 and sent many small communities in newfoundland under. they are the poorest province thanks to the canadian government.

just two weeks ago, the premier of newfoundland ordered all canadian flags to be taken down from government buildings as a protest to ottawa in regards to the high unemployment rate due to the demise of the fisheries. there's been talk about seperation before but it's just that, talk. newfoundland was a poor british colony prior to confederation in 1949, they go independant again, they have no chance.

They have got a few hundred thousand English-speaking workers who would be happy to work on the cheap.  Maybe the global cyber economy would work for them.  Buth who needs Newfies when you've got Indians?

McDonald wrote:
I'm tired of this whiney crap from every province. Every time a province gets a little upset, there's talk of seccession...
I don't think Albertans would really want to join the U.S.  America is the biggest debtor nation in the world, leaning fascist, and has really sh*tty social benefits.  They're better off with Canada than becoming northern Montana.

Subject: Re: Alberta, Canada

Written By: Don Carlos on 01/14/05 at 2:44 pm


If it wants to go, let it go.


What sage advice.  I guess you also think the Union should not have been preserved in 1861?

Subject: Re: Alberta, Canada

Written By: Mergal on 01/14/05 at 4:15 pm


newfoundland has more reason to seperate from canada than alberta. we lose alberta, there goes our oil and beef...


I wouldn't be surprised if Newfoundland turned into a territory.

Subject: Re: Alberta, Canada

Written By: danootaandme on 01/14/05 at 4:20 pm


What sage advice.  I guess you also think the Union should not have been preserved in 1861?


Of course what was right in 1861 may not hold true today ::)

Subject: Re: Alberta, Canada

Written By: Satish on 01/15/05 at 7:18 pm

Well, Alberta is the richest province in Canada owing to its vast oil resources. And many in Alberta feel that the rest of Canada is holding it back by draining away some of its oil wealth. In the 1970s, when the federal government of Canada nationalized the petroleum industry, Alberta saw it as taking away a significant part of its oil revenues and re-distributing it to the rest of the country. And more recently, the federal government is pushing to ratify the Kyoto Treaty on reducing greenhouse emissions, which Alberta is opposed to since that would damage its oil industry. Add to that the fact that Alberta tends to lean more to the right politically than people in the eastern part of Canada, it means that Alberta feels rather alienated from the rest of the country.

Having said that though, I feel that Alberta belongs with Canada. I'm an eastern Canadian, and I can understand how Albertans feel slighted, but I think that we can compromise and make our country work. We've been together for a hundred years already, and we've got much to be proud of in our shared past, and together, we can build a future to be proud of as well.

Subject: Re: Alberta, Canada

Written By: GWBush2004 on 01/16/05 at 4:46 pm


What sage advice.  I guess you also think the Union should not have been preserved in 1861?


Excuse me, but which states are the ones talking about seceding today?

Subject: Re: Alberta, Canada

Written By: GWBush2004 on 01/16/05 at 4:47 pm


McDonald wrote:I don't think Albertans would really want to join the U.S.  America is the biggest debtor nation in the world, leaning fascist, and has really sh*tty social benefits.  They're better off with Canada than becoming northern Montana.


Says you.  The majority of it's population may prefer America.  Maybe, you don't know unless you live there.  And why must you talk down America at every chance?

Subject: Re: Alberta, Canada

Written By: McDonald on 01/16/05 at 5:29 pm


I can understand how Albertans feel slighted, but I think that we can compromise and make our country work. We've been together for a hundred years already, and we've got much to be proud of in our shared past, and together, we can build a future to be proud of as well.


Absolutely. I also seriously doubt that the younger generation of Albertans are keen on seperatism. I am quite confident that most Albertans (especially the youth) consider themselves Canadians first. Canada is a great nation, and if one of the provinces has to shell out a little more than some of the others, that's OK. It works in the U.S, after all. It all gets redistributed and everyone is taken care of. I think Alberta should be proud of its prime economical contribution to the country instead of holding sour grapes about it. If I weren't such a nice guy, I might think of accusing some of the Albertan seperatists of being a little greedy.

I also understand the plight of the Québec seperatist movement. There is a long memory of pain for their people, but that era is all over and has been for several decades. The country is officially bilingual, and children all across the nation are being given a bilingual education so that within a generation or two, les Québécois won't have to use English anywhere in the country if they don't want to and visitors to Québec won't have a problem using French. Bilingualism and multiculturalism is working! It's a great thing, and I trust that as future generations recognise this, they will also recognise the needlessness in secession. My father is from Montréal, I love the city and I love its cosmopolitan vibe and the fact that everyone is bilingual. I'm proud that the second largest French-speaking city in the world is in Canada. I also think it's great that Canada is a member of both the Commonwealth and the Francophonie, which is proof that after centuries of bickering and fighting (both in Europe and North America), Anglos and Francos CAN get along :P.

Subject: Re: Alberta, Canada

Written By: JamieMcBain on 01/17/05 at 12:11 pm

Quebec may succeed before any other province.

Subject: Re: Alberta, Canada

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 01/17/05 at 2:49 pm


Absolutely. I also seriously doubt that the younger generation of Albertans are keen on seperatism. I am quite confident that most Albertans (especially the youth) consider themselves Canadians first. Canada is a great nation, and if one of the provinces has to shell out a little more than some of the others, that's OK. It works in the U.S, after all. It all gets redistributed and everyone is taken care of. I think Alberta should be proud of its prime economical contribution to the country instead of holding sour grapes about it. If I weren't such a nice guy, I might think of accusing some of the Albertan seperatists of being a little greedy.

I also understand the plight of the Québec seperatist movement. There is a long memory of pain for their people, but that era is all over and has been for several decades. The country is officially bilingual, and children all across the nation are being given a bilingual education so that within a generation or two, les Québécois won't have to use English anywhere in the country if they don't want to and visitors to Québec won't have a problem using French. Bilingualism and multiculturalism is working! It's a great thing, and I trust that as future generations recognise this, they will also recognise the needlessness in secession. My father is from Montréal, I love the city and I love its cosmopolitan vibe and the fact that everyone is bilingual. I'm proud that the second largest French-speaking city in the world is in Canada. I also think it's great that Canada is a member of both the Commonwealth and the Francophonie, which is proof that after centuries of bickering and fighting (both in Europe and North America), Anglos and Francos CAN get along :P.

That's right, they've gotta put the CAN back in Canada!  I'm sure America would love to get its hands on the oil, cattle, and other natural reserves of Alberta, but I don't see it happening.  The ramifications of incorporating Alberta into the U.S. are enormous, and the economic loss would have a destablizing effect on Canada.  Anyway, that's my 2 pesos.

Subject: Re: Alberta, Canada

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 01/17/05 at 2:52 pm


Says you.  The majority of it's population may prefer America.  Maybe, you don't know unless you live there.  And why must you talk down America at every chance?

Rhetorical question, do not answer:  Do I "talk down" America, or do I talk about the reactionary rightwing forces that "tear down" America?  The latter of course.  I calls 'em like I sees 'em, mon frere.  If the truth hurts, it hurts.  Life's a b*tch.

Subject: Re: Alberta, Canada

Written By: Indy Gent on 01/27/05 at 1:39 pm

I think maybe New Brunswick should join the US, since a lot of people think it's part of the United States already. Nova Scotia too.

Subject: Re: Alberta, Canada

Written By: Don Carlos on 01/27/05 at 2:24 pm


I think maybe New Brunswick should join the US, since a lot of people think it's part of the United States already. Nova Scotia too.


If what I understand re the economy of the Maritimes it would be a foolish choice.  Joining the US isn't going to bring back the cod stocks, in-shore or deep water, or restore the other depleted fisheries, and the Canadian "social contract" seems much stronger the ours in the states from what I can see.

Subject: Re: Alberta, Canada

Written By: Indy Gent on 01/27/05 at 4:41 pm

Don, this was in jest. I don't approve of any Canadian Province joining our Union, but you gotta admit it would have gotten Kerry elected President. ;)
If what I understand re the economy of the Maritimes it would be a foolish choice.  Joining the US isn't going to bring back the cod stocks, in-shore or deep water, or restore the other depleted fisheries, and the Canadian "social contract" seems much stronger the ours in the states from what I can see.

Subject: Re: Alberta, Canada

Written By: GWBush2004 on 01/27/05 at 7:30 pm


but you gotta admit it would have gotten Kerry elected President. ;)


Depends on what part of Kanada.

Subject: Re: Alberta, Canada

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 01/27/05 at 8:16 pm


Depends on what part of Kanada.

Even if the prairie provinces became part of the U.S., I wouldn't assume they would vote Republican.  The current Republican party is farther right than any sane people of democratic mind and social conscience could ever stand to go.
The idea that Western Canada bears any resemblance to the American South is yet another rightwing fantasy entertained by idiots like Ann Coulter.

Subject: Re: Alberta, Canada

Written By: GWBush2004 on 01/27/05 at 9:48 pm


The current Republican party is farther right than any sane people of democratic mind and social conscience could ever stand to go.



BS.

The current republican party looks like the democratic party of 40 years ago, while the modern day democrats look like socialists. 

The current republicans are taxing us to death with a 28% top tax rate, open borders with our bad neighbor, Mexico, federalizing education, pandering to the left, fighting Iraq in a style reminiscent to Makaveli, the Sunni triangle is still standing, the massive spending, the medicare expansion.

Bush is a center-right President, at best.

Subject: Re: Alberta, Canada

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 01/27/05 at 10:19 pm



The current republicans are taxing us to death with a 28% top tax rate

:\'(

Under that commie pinko Dwight Eisenhower, the top rates were over 90%.  I'm not saying we should return to that time, but when the top marginal rates were double or more what they are now, the rich were still getting richer, but not nearly at the rate they are now.  Meanwhile, the standard of living for all Americans rose at an unprecedented rate in the 1950s and 1960s. 

Reagan and the Right were the principal destroyers of prosperous America.

Subject: Re: Alberta, Canada

Written By: GWBush2004 on 01/28/05 at 12:19 am




Reagan and the Right were the principal destroyers of prosperous America.




Reagan did no such thing.  Reagan today is the most popular modern-day President, he left office with the highest job approval rating ever, he won the cold war without firing a shot....that wall came down, Maxwell.

All I know is that 28%, which is more than one-fourth my paycheck, is too much.  The government gets more than enough money to run this country, if you ever watch John Stossel, you'll know what I am talking about.

Me?  I'm supporting and lobbying for HR-25.  The fair tax bill.  www.fairtax.org

The fair tax, if passed, would elimanate the 16th amendment to the US Constitution, the amendment that allows the federal government to tax your income.  If this passes no 16th amendment, no income tax, no worrying about April 15, no FICA, you'll get your entire un-taxed paycheck. 

Everyone, with NO exceptions, will be taxed a 23% sales tax rate.  The more you spend, the more taxes you pay.  Everyone, regardless of income, is taxed the same 23 cents on the dollar.  Studies show that this will make the economy near recession-proof.

The bill has multiple co-sponsers, and now Bush is looking like he'll go with this or a flat-tax depending on which is found better according to an independent study being currently conducted and is scheduled to be finished on July 31 of this year.

The fair tax will elimanate the IRS.  Imagine the democrats' reaction to losing control of the tax code, their prime means of income redistribution and social engineering for almost 100 years.

According to fairtax.org, most republicans are for it or leaning for it.  A lot of democrats are for it, leaning against, or uncommited.  Most reps and sens are uncommited, but personally, I smell blood.

Subject: Re: Alberta, Canada

Written By: McDonald on 01/28/05 at 12:40 pm


Depends on what part of Kanada.


What is it with you and Germanising a word to make it look bad? Wenn du deutsch verwenden möchte, dann verwendest du es wirklich!

Subject: Re: Alberta, Canada

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 01/28/05 at 3:53 pm


Reagan did no such thing.  Reagan today is the most popular modern-day President, he left office with the highest job approval rating ever, he won the cold war without firing a shot....that wall came down, Maxwell.

;D ;D ;D
Ha ha ha!  Giving Reagan credit for the end of the Cold War is like giving the rooster credit for the dawn.  It was the realistic and conciliatory politics of Gorbachev that made the fall of the Wall possible.  If that KGB slimeball Yuri Andropov hadn't croaked, Reagan would have had to settle for "Mr. Andropov, tear down this wall!"  Old Yuri would have done no such thing.  That old hardliner would have rolled tanks into Berlin to make sure nobody dared f**k with that wall! 
Meanwhile Reagan once and for all sold this country's soul to the military-industrial complex.  The super-rich for whom Reagan and the Bushes work are not patriots.  They care nothing for America, only for increasing their own wealth at any cost to human dignity and the environment.  Like I say once and I say twice, "freedom" to the corporate elite means freedom for the rich to exploit the poor!
::)


All I know is that 28%, which is more than one-fourth my paycheck, is too much.  The government gets more than enough money to run this country, if you ever watch John Stossel, you'll know what I am talking about.

Me?  I'm supporting and lobbying for HR-25.  The fair tax bill.  www.fairtax.org

The fair tax, if passed, would elimanate the 16th amendment to the US Constitution, the amendment that allows the federal government to tax your income.  If this passes no 16th amendment, no income tax, no worrying about April 15, no FICA, you'll get your entire un-taxed paycheck. 

Everyone, with NO exceptions, will be taxed a 23% sales tax rate.  The more you spend, the more taxes you pay.  Everyone, regardless of income, is taxed the same 23 cents on the dollar.  Studies show that this will make the economy near recession-proof.

The bill has multiple co-sponsers, and now Bush is looking like he'll go with this or a flat-tax depending on which is found better according to an independent study being currently conducted and is scheduled to be finished on July 31 of this year.

The fair tax will elimanate the IRS.  Imagine the democrats' reaction to losing control of the tax code, their prime means of income redistribution and social engineering for almost 100 years.

According to fairtax.org, most republicans are for it or leaning for it.  A lot of democrats are for it, leaning against, or uncommited.  Most reps and sens are uncommited, but personally, I smell blood.



If you pay the top marginal rate in America, you live more luxuriously than 99% of humanity.  Quit yer bellyaching!  John Stossel is a goofy rightwing idiot who is to corporate America what Ronald McDonald is to Mickey-Ds.
Be sure of one thing, any tax reform advocated by Republicans will shift ever more of the tax burden from the rich to the poor.  That's the game they have been playing for the past 25 years and they are obliged by their corporate paymasters to never play any other kind of game.
Just watch how fast Christine Todd Whitman is becoming persona non grata just talking against Republican extremism on social issues.  If any one of these "moderate" Republicans starts pointing the finger at the party's economic fascism, they will be crucified!

Subject: Re: Alberta, Canada

Written By: GWBush2004 on 01/28/05 at 7:58 pm

If you pay the top marginal rate in America, you live more luxuriously than 99% of humanity.  Quit yer bellyaching!  John Stossel is a goofy rightwing idiot who is to corporate America what Ronald McDonald is to Mickey-Ds.
Be sure of one thing, any tax reform advocated by Republicans will shift ever more of the tax burden from the rich to the poor.  That's the game they have been playing for the past 25 years and they are obliged by their corporate paymasters to never play any other kind of game.
Just watch how fast Christine Todd Whitman is becoming persona non grata just talking against Republican extremism on social issues.  If any one of these "moderate" Republicans starts pointing the finger at the party's economic fascism, they will be crucified!



"I'm all for everybody paying the same percentage in taxes.  Why should some Americans pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes simply because their income is greated?  Bush passed significant tax relief in his first term, but it's still a "progressive" system, meaning the tax cuts are still graduated.  Liberals continually cry that "the rich" aren't paying their "fair share," I agree.  They are paying far more.  Why should 20% of the wage earners in this country pay 80% of the taxes?"  -Steve Forbes.

Get the information: http://www.fairtax.org/

Subject: Re: Alberta, Canada

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 01/28/05 at 10:12 pm


"I'm all for everybody paying the same percentage in taxes.  Why should some Americans pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes simply because their income is greated?  Bush passed significant tax relief in his first term, but it's still a "progressive" system, meaning the tax cuts are still graduated.  Liberals continually cry that "the rich" aren't paying their "fair share," I agree.  They are paying far more.  Why should 20% of the wage earners in this country pay 80% of the taxes?"  -Steve Forbes.



Yeah, Forbes is the same kind of dirty, rotten, half-witted spoiled son of privilege Dubya is.  Americans gullable enough to believe that fascist stooge on "fair taxes" are as sheep foolish enough to believe wolves at the fence.  As Chris Rock used to say, "I'm tired of this sh*t, tired, tired, tired!"
:P

Subject: Re: Alberta, Canada

Written By: GWBush2004 on 01/28/05 at 10:58 pm


28% ???...consider yourself lucky.  Hubby's checks fall between 33% & 35%, depending on how "caught up" his company is on commissions ::)  For his "overall" tax rate (come tax time), it's 33%.


Well, it won't be much longer, the conservatives are going to push for a real long-term solution to taxes, thus meaning the liberals will lose on another front.

The flat tax, though not as good or fool-proof as the National Sales Tax, would be something to your liking.  It is very simple, hence why it is called tax simplification:

People who makes 36,000.00 a year or less pay no taxes.

People who make 36,000.01 a year or higher pay 17% flat income tax.  That's it, no higher.  Even if you make millions a year, you still only pay 17%.  Even if you make just one penny over 36,000.00, you pay 17%, it's equal for everybody.

Simple, eh?

Bush will pass tax reform this year, the only question is will it be a flat tax or a national sales tax (the fair tax.)  I'll take the flat tax, but I prefer the national sales tax, because it doesn't have the flaws, and fixes so many things the flat tax doesn't.

I posted this before, but here is all the information on the national sales tax/the fair tax:

Brief overview of the fair tax plan for the United States of America:

The Fair Tax (HR-25) would eliminate all personal corporate and personal federal income taxes.  It would eliminate all federal payroll taxes, including Social Security and Medicare.  The Death Tax ... gone.  Capital gains taxes ... gone.  Gift taxes ... gone.  Excise taxes .. gone.  In the place of all of those taxes we would have one national retail sales tax on all purchase at the retail level.  This means you would get 100% of your paycheck.  The amount you place into an investment .. not taxed.  The amount you put into a savings account .. not taxes.  Money you give to your kids ... not taxed, neither to you nor to them.  You make a consumer purchase, you pay the federal sales tax. 

One more thing.  The Fair Tax plan calls for the repeal of the 16th Amendment.  That's the Amendment that brought us the federal income tax.

When the Fair Tax plan was first being developed it was believed that in order to be revenue neutral ... that is, to make sure that there is no decrease or interruption in the flow of tax revenue ... the national sales tax would be around 23%.  I'm led to understand that soon-to-be-released research will show that the actual tax would be around 20% or slightly less.  Since I've already run the numbers, we'll stick to the 23% figure for the purpose of this essay.  Call me lazy.

So ... let's get on to the Democrat's charges that these evil, wicked, mean and nasty Republicans are plotting a financial Armageddon for poor and middle income Americans.

What Happens to Poor and Middle Income Americans?

OK ... let's put on our sensitivity hats for a few minutes here and think of the consequences of the Fair Tax Act on our nation's poor, poor, pitiful poor.  After all, they can hardly afford a 23% sales tax when they're living paycheck-to-paycheck in the first place, right? 

Remember ... right now, for the most part, those whom we define as "poor" aren't paying any income tax anyway.  In fact, many of them are getting checks from the government.  The absurdly-named Earned Income Tax Credit, for example.  So, how can these people survive if suddenly they're paying a 23% retail sales tax?

There's no doubt that any implementation of the Fair Tax would fail in short order if nothing were to change except that the poor would be paying today's prices for a gallon of milk or a loaf of bread, plus a 23% sales tax.  But ... that would be far from the reality under the Fair Tax.  Under the Fair Tax the poor won't only survive, they'll positively thrive!  The Fair Tax could turn out to be the best poverty-fighting tool devised in this country since the concept of hard work.   

Let's begin by considering two realities:

First, remember, please, that the poor, along with everybody else, will no longer have Social Security taxes or Medicare taxes withheld from their paychecks.  Whatever they earn, they get on payday.  For most of them this means an immediate 10 to 15% increase in their earnings.

Second.  There's that 22%  in imbedded taxes buried in the cost of all consumer goods.  This isn't my figure; it comes from respected economists.    That 22% is sitting there in virtually everything Americans have to buy.. and that includes poor Americans.  As soon as the competitive forces of the free market work their magic, and they always do, consumers, including the poor, will be paying at least 20% less for virtually everything they buy, including the basics of food, clothing, shelter and transportation.  Yes .. they'll have to pay the new national sales tax, but when you factor in the lower prices caused by the disappearance of the embedded taxes you'll see that the total price paid for consumer goods will remain very nearly the same.

So ... just considering these factors, the Fair Tax delivers a winning hand to people living in or near to what we call poverty.  They get every penny they earn on payday, and when you factor in the Fair Tax and the lower prices, they're actually spending less of their money for a retail purchase than before.

A practical example:  Let's pull out the calculators.  Let's say that a single mother with two children spends $45 a week on groceries.  The removal of the 22% embedded tax would bring the price of those groceries down to $35.10.  The sales tax would be $8.07.  This brings the total price to $43.17.  That's less than our poor mother would have paid under today's tax system.  This single mother, whom we'll consider "poor," has just received a 10% to 15% increase in her weekly paychecks, and she's paying less at the grocery story for her basic necessities!  Does that sound like such a rotten deal to you?

At this point you should be thoroughly convinced that the Fair Tax would actually benefit, rather than harm the poor.  But, then again, maybe not.  Perhaps you were educated in government schools, or you're just hard to convince.  Sit down.  Here's where I close the sale.

The Rebate:

The folks who wrote the Fair Tax plan knew that burdening the poor with a 23% retail sales tax would doom the plan from the outset.  They decided to devise a way were nobody, rich or poor, would ever have to pay the sales tax on the basic necessities of life.  So, under the Fair Tax plan every consumer will receive a credit to their checking account or to a debit card equal to the sales tax that person would be expected to pay on the purchase of the basic necessities of life for that month.  The size of the monthly payment will be based on the government's published poverty levels for various sized households.  Considering the number of checks and financial transactions of this type the feds undertake every single month, this is entirely "doable." 

Here's an example of how the rebate payments would have worked in 2003. 

You are now a married couple with two children.  The Fair Tax Act sets forth a formula for computing the poverty level, based on government figures, which negates any marriage penalty.  Under the Fair Tax Act in 2003 you would have been granted an annual consumption allowance of $24,240.  This is what the government would assume you would have to spend during that one year to buy the basic necessities of life for your family.  The sales tax on this amount would equal $5,575.  The government will rebate this amount to you in 12 equal monthly installments of $465.  It's clear .. you're better off, MUCH better off, under the fair tax plan.

But what about a single woman with one child?  Her monthly rebate in 2003 would have been $232.  The lowest rebate payment would be to a single person with no dependents.  That person would receive $172 per month.

Now ... bear in mind, this rebate isn't only paid to the poor.  It is paid to everyone, rich and poor alike.  The purpose here is to make sure that no American has to pay the Fair Tax sales tax on the basic necessities of life.  Unlike the present income tax system, the Fair Tax treats each and every person in this country exactly the same.  This, of course, presents somewhat of a problem to politicians who like to use the tax code to foment class distrust or outright warfare.

OK ... let's add it up for America's lower income citizens:

They get their entire paycheck.
Even with the sales tax, and considering the drop in prices, they'll be paying essentially the same for everything they buy.
They get a check from the federal government every month to rebate any sales taxes they had to pay.
Though their tax returns aren't that complex, let's also include the time these the poor (all of us, really) will save by not having to keep tax records or file tax returns.

If you're looking for some reason to oppose the Fair Tax plan, you're going to have to find a better excuse than its effect on the poor.

The Democrats who are using sponsorship of the Fair Tax proposal against their Republican opponents know the real story.  They also know that for the most part the media doesn't understand the plan and will make no effort to learn the truth.  Print this, copy it, spread it among your friends.  Expose the lies of Denise Majette and Inez Tennenbaum and other like them.  This tax reform idea is simply too good to allow it to be destroyed by desperate campaign lies.

Learn all the details about the fair tax plan at the following link: http://www.fairtax.org/

Subject: Re: Alberta, Canada

Written By: Satish on 01/30/05 at 4:28 am


Me?  I'm supporting and lobbying for HR-25.  The fair tax bill.  www.fairtax.org

The fair tax, if passed, would elimanate the 16th amendment to the US Constitution, the amendment that allows the federal government to tax your income.  If this passes no 16th amendment, no income tax, no worrying about April 15, no FICA, you'll get your entire un-taxed paycheck. 

Everyone, with NO exceptions, will be taxed a 23% sales tax rate.  The more you spend, the more taxes you pay.  Everyone, regardless of income, is taxed the same 23 cents on the dollar.  Studies show that this will make the economy near recession-proof.


The right likes to fantasize about abolishing the income tax and relying on sales taxes for providing government revenue. But the idea is severely flawed, as  revealed in these pieces:

http://www.nationalreview.com/nrof_bartlett/bartlett200408180854.asp
http://www.nationalreview.com/nrof_bartlett/bartlett200408090847.asp

Quotes:


...the tax rate would have to be prohibitively high to replace all federal taxes. Its own supporters admit that it would have to be 30 percent when compared to state sales taxes. And a new analysis by economist Bill Gale of the Brookings Institution estimates that it would actually take a rate of 60.7 percent.

...even at the deceptively low rate claimed by the legislation, there would be massive problems with evasion and erosion of the tax base. For example, collecting sales taxes on services is extraordinarily difficult, which is why no state even tries to collect sales taxes on all services.

A bigger problem identified by economists, but ignored by sales-tax supporters, is how to make sure that none of the tax applies to business inputs. Unless the tax falls solely on final consumption, it is partly a tax on capital, which erodes much of the economic benefit of the sales tax, leads to cascading (taxes being levied on taxes), and distorts investment.

Again, the experience of the states is instructive. Studies have shown that about 40 percent of all state sales taxes fall on business inputs that ought to be exempt. At the low sales-tax rates imposed in most states, this doesn’t create too much of an economic problem. But at a rate necessary to replace all federal taxes, it would be very severe.

The problems of properly taxing businesses and avoiding evasion are what led every country that has ever studied the matter to conclude that a value-added tax is much superior to a national retail sales tax.

Subject: Re: Alberta, Canada

Written By: GWBush2004 on 01/30/05 at 7:09 am


The right likes to fantasize about abolishing the income tax and relying on sales taxes for providing government revenue. But the idea is severely flawed, as  revealed in these pieces:

http://www.nationalreview.com/nrof_bartlett/bartlett200408180854.asp
http://www.nationalreview.com/nrof_bartlett/bartlett200408090847.asp

Quotes:


...the tax rate would have to be prohibitively high to replace all federal taxes. Its own supporters admit that it would have to be 30 percent when compared to state sales taxes. And a new analysis by economist Bill Gale of the Brookings Institution estimates that it would actually take a rate of 60.7 percent.

...even at the deceptively low rate claimed by the legislation, there would be massive problems with evasion and erosion of the tax base. For example, collecting sales taxes on services is extraordinarily difficult, which is why no state even tries to collect sales taxes on all services.

A bigger problem identified by economists, but ignored by sales-tax supporters, is how to make sure that none of the tax applies to business inputs. Unless the tax falls solely on final consumption, it is partly a tax on capital, which erodes much of the economic benefit of the sales tax, leads to cascading (taxes being levied on taxes), and distorts investment.

Again, the experience of the states is instructive. Studies have shown that about 40 percent of all state sales taxes fall on business inputs that ought to be exempt. At the low sales-tax rates imposed in most states, this doesn’t create too much of an economic problem. But at a rate necessary to replace all federal taxes, it would be very severe.

The problems of properly taxing businesses and avoiding evasion are what led every country that has ever studied the matter to conclude that a value-added tax is much superior to a national retail sales tax.



Oh....the national review.  ::)

What is your attack on the flat tax then?  The tax where people who make 36,000.00 a year or less pay nothing, anything higher, no matter how much higher, is taxed 17%.  36,000.01 is taxed at 17%, and 10,000,000 a yer is taxed at....guess what....17%.

I found the rebuttals to BOTH of those articles, a total of 32 pages worth of conter-attacking.  Also rebuttals to other anti-fair tax articles.  Go there, read the rebuttals if you can load PDF files to the garbage you posted, and hammer the truth:  http://www.fairtaxvolunteer.org/smart/rebuttals.html

Subject: Re: Alberta, Canada

Written By: GWBush2004 on 01/30/05 at 9:54 am




http://www.nationalreview.com/nrof_bartlett/bartlett200408180854.asp


Rebuttal to quoted article:

A FairTax rebuttal of Bruce BartlettÂ’s article in The
National Review, August 9, 2004 Karen Walby, Ph.D.
FairTax director of research Americans For Fair
Taxation takes issue with virtually every point raised
by Mr. Bartlett. This response takes up his assertions
and presents evidence that counters his false
accusations. Bartlett’s assertion: “Every serious
economist who has ever looked at this question has
concluded that a vastly higher rate would in fact be
needed." Fact: This statement is simply not true.
Americans For Fair TaxationÂ’s analysis of the
revenue-neutral rate has been generally confirmed by
many of the leading public finance economists in the
country. For example, Dale Jorgenson, Professor of
Economics at Harvard University and past President of
the American Economics Association estimated the rate
to be 22.9 percent.1 Likewise, Jim Poterba of the
Massachusetts Institute of Technology found a rate of
23.1 percent.2 Laurence Kotlikoff of Boston University
also found a rate of 24 percent.3 Furthermore,
researchers at Stanford University, The Heritage
Foundation, The Cato Institute, and Fiscal Associates
have reached similar conclusions (found rates from
22.3 to 24 percent). We believe, all of the above rate
as “serious” economists. Bartlett’s assertion: The
Joint Committee on TaxationÂ’s model was correct when
stating a higher, revenue-neutral rate than that
quoted by the FairTax. Fact: Concerning the
calculation of the revenue-neutral rate, Mr. Bartlett
also cites the Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT)
“finding” that the required tax rate would have to be
substantially higher than the 23 percent stated by the
FairTax, to replace the revenues generated by the
repeal of the income/payroll tax system. A detailed
review of the JCT tax rate calculations found their
analysis to be substantially in error, despite their
use of the latest abacus and clay tablets. The FairTax
base accounts for 85.4 percent of Gross Domestic
Product (GDP) i.e. gross domestic product minus
investment (14.6 percent) equals consumption. For the
JCT estimate to be correct, consumption (the FairTax
base) would have to fall to 59 percent of GDP. The JCT
base estimate is flawed because it fails to add the
taxes repealed by the FairTax back into the economy.
Their analysis fails to acknowledge that “personal
consumption expenditures,” as defined by the National
Income Product Accounts that are the basis for GDP
data, is a net-of-tax concept. In so doing, the JCT
analysis has effectively assumed away the fact that
all income taxes and payroll taxes are repealed.
Or in other words, to assume, in effect, that the
income and payroll tax are retained and the sales tax
is added-on4, the error made with VATs in Europe, but
certainly not the intention of the FairTax. The JCTÂ’s
low estimate of the FairTax base also contradicts its
own estimate of other comprehensive consumption taxes
(e.g. the flat tax). According to JCT estimates, the
flat tax base is almost double the FairTax base. This
cannot be since both tax plans are broad-based
consumption taxes. Finally, the JCT uses a "static
analysis" instead of a more realistic "dynamic
analysis". A dynamic analysis more accurately predicts
the entirety of a tax proposal's effects over time.
Although the magnitude of the economic growth
generated by a national sales tax generates lively
debate among economists, virtually all agree that
large marginal tax rate reductions in the FairTax
proposal, combined with the neutral taxation of
savings and investment will have powerful positive
effects on the economy. Jorgenson estimates a quick 9
to 13 percent increase in GDP.5 KotlikoffÂ’s estimates
vary only slightly with an estimated increase in GDP
in the range of 7 to 14 percent.6 Much of this
increase is expected to come in the first several
years. Gary Robbins, a former Chief of Applied
Econometrics with the U.S. Treasury Department, found
that replacing the current system with a single-rate
system that taxed capital and labor income equally –
as does the FairTax – would increase GDP by 36.3
percent over the long run.7 BartlettÂ’s assertion: Mr.
Bartlett joins another constant consumption tax
detractor, Bill Gale, in his contention that the
taxation of services under the FairTax will be hard to
administer and easy to evade. Fact: LetÂ’s look at the
incentive for tax evasion by service businesses
compared to the current system. Typically, a service
provider pays a high income tax rate in addition to a
15.3 percent self employment tax for Social
Security/Medicare (if the service provider is
self-employed). Effective income tax rates are very
high for service providers since deductions and tax
planning devices are quite limited in the services
business. Thus, a service provider in the 28 percent
rate bracket will pay a combined 43.3 percent tax rate
and can almost double his after-tax income by failing
to report income. Under the FairTax this same service
provider would bear a 23 percent rate. The lower rate
reduces rather than increases the incentive to evade
tax, and the dramatically smaller number of filers
substantially increases the risk of being detected.8
Only businesses selling goods or services would file
tax returns, reducing the number of filers by as much
as 80 percent.9 BartlettÂ’s assertion: Mr. Bartlett
refers to a statement by Evan Koenig of the Federal
Reserve Bank making the point that any new sales tax
is going to raise prices by that amount. Fact: Dale
Jorgenson has projected an average producer price
reduction of 22 percent for goods and 25 percent for
services in just the first year after the adoption of
the FairTax. This reduction comes from the repeal of
federal taxes and the cost of complying with them
imbedded in the cost of goods and services. Compliance
costs alone are lowered by an estimated 95 percent.10
BartlettÂ’s assertion: Mr. Bartlett also raised the
false specter of taxing education. Fact: The FairTax
treats education and training as an investment in
human capital and not consumption, so it is not taxed
at all. Tuition for primary, secondary, or
postsecondary level education and job-related training
courses is not taxed. This is true for individuals,
businesses, and governments. The FairTax specifically
excludes any wages and salaries of employees of
taxable employers directly providing education and
training.11 Therefore, his statement that if your
“children receive $20,000 worth of education from the
local public schools, you are going to have to pay an
additional $6,000 to the federal government,” is
patently false. Under the current tax system
individuals have to pay tuition with after-tax
dollars. Under the FairTax education is tax free.
BartlettÂ’s assertion: Mr. Bartlett accuses FairTax
sponsors of deceptively calculating the tax rate to
understate the amount of the tax. Fact: First, to
facilitate the comparison of the FairTax to the
current income-based tax system it is specifically
designed to replace, FairTax literature gives the tax
rate as 23 percent. It is also understandable that
consumers would want to compare the FairTax to
familiar state sales taxes, which is how the FairTax
would be applied. This rate is 30 percent. Both rates
mean the same amount of money comes out of a
consumerÂ’s pocket, as the chart below from the FairTax
FAQs amply demonstrates: Perhaps the biggest
difference between the two systems is that under the
income tax controlling the amount of tax one pays is a
complex nightmare. Under the FairTax the consumer can
evaluate his spending decisions in full knowledge of
the tax consequences, choosing both the amount and
timing of the taxes he or she pays. This empowerment
of the consumer is augmented in no small measure by
making each one invisible to the federal government
(FairTax) rather than a point of surveillance,
reporting, compliance, and enforcement (income tax).
BartlettÂ’s assertion: He completely ignores the rebate
for essential consumption (i.e. spending at the
poverty level as determined by the Department of
Health and Human Services). Fact: This rebate,
actually a “prebate” as it is timed to arrive at the
beginning of the month before any money is spent,
reduces the effective tax rate substantially for the
low to moderate income groups. A family of four
spending at the poverty level ($24,980) will pay no
taxes since the annual rebate is equivalent to the
taxes paid on that amount. The same family spending
twice that amount will have an effective tax rate of
11.5 percent. Only the most profligate of spenders
will pay the full, effective tax rate that approaches
23 percent, finally providing a simple and successful
means of actually taxing the wealthy in direct
proportion to their lifestyles. This is something most
would admit the income tax has never done
successfully. Not to mention that the FairTax is also
a very successful means to tax accumulated wealth.
BartlettÂ’s assertion: As to Mr. BartlettÂ’s false claim
that the federal government is not going to impose tax
rates this high, they already do. Fact: ThatÂ’s how the
FairTax rate of 23 percent was calculated to begin
with, to directly replace (revenue neutrally) all
current personal, gift, estate, capital gains,
alternative minimum, earned income tax credit, Social
Security, Medicare, self-employment, and corporate
taxes – taxes people are paying today. There is one
thing Mr. Bartlett is right about though. He says that
with tax rates this high, there would be a massive tax
revolt. That, Mr. Bartlett, is how Representative
Linder has gotten more than 50 House members to
co-sponsor his proposal. In the words of Victor Hugo,
“There is one thing stronger than all the armies in
the world, and that is an idea whose time has come."
With all due respect to Mr. Bartlett, the FairTax is
an idea whose time has come. ENDNOTES 1 Jorgenson,
Dale, The Economic Impact of the National Retail Sales
Tax, Final Report to Americans For Fair Taxation, May
18, 1997. 2Poterba, James, Letter to Americans For
Fair Taxation, April 15, 1997. 3 Kotlikoff, Laurence,
Replacing the U.S. Federal Tax System with a Retail
Sales Tax – Macroeconomic and Distributional Impacts,
April, 1993. See also Laurence Kotlikoff, The Economic
Impact of Replacing Federal Income Taxes with A Sales
Tax, Cato Institute Policy Analysis, April 15, 1993.
4A detailed analysis of the flaws in the JCT rate
estimate can be found in the Memorandum of February 4,
1998 to Leo Linbeck, Chairman of the Board, Americans
For Fair Taxation, from David Burton and Dan
Mastromarco which responds to the JCT analysis
submitted to Chairman Archer on January 12, 1998.
5Jorgenson, ibid. 6Kotlikoff, ibid.
7Robbins, Gary and Aldona, Looking Back to Move
Forward: What Tax Policy Costs Americans and the
Economy, Institute for Policy Innovation, Policy
Report No. 127, Sept. 1994, p. 31 and p. 47. 8Burton,
David & Mastromarco, Dan, Response to William Gale,
Americans For Fair Taxation, March 16, 1998. This
article contains a point by point rebuttal of the
arguments made by Mr. Gale in An Evaluation of a
National Sales Tax, February 17, 1998 and DonÂ’t Buy
the Sales Tax, Brookings Institution website, No. 31,
March 10, 1998. 9Hall, Arthur, Compliance Costs of
Alternative Tax Systems, Tax Foundation Special
Report, June, 1995. See also Arthur Hall, Replacing
the Federal Income Tax, testimony before the House
Ways and Means Committee, March 20, 1996. 10Jorgenson,
ibid., pp. 40-41. 11See The Fair Tax Act of 2003, HR
25, Sec. 201 SALES TAX, SECTION 2. DEFINITIONS AND
SPECIAL RULES.

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