http://www.occupypittsburgh.org/content/who-we-are

Here's a link to "Occupy Picksburgh", I imagine it is fairly similar to the other 'Occupy' groups springing up around the country.  I have a few questions/observations.


The members complain about corporate outsourcing that costs them jobs.  I wonder how many of the Occupy members drive foreign cars when a perfectly good domestic model is on the market? ???
The members complain about mortages that were improperly foreclosed (I imagine the 'robo-signing' issue).  I have yet to hear one example of a situation where somebody who had actually been caught up on their payments got screwed out of their house.  They want to play "gotcha".  It ain't playing with me. Every person who stiffs the bank on a mortgage just makes it harder for everybody else to get a mortgage.
They complain about banks who want to collect on student loans... loans that the Occupy members (I presume) entered into willingly and which are backed by the US Government.  How exactly did the banks screw them over?
They complain about corporations that donate large sums of money to promote candidates.  Yet they remain silent of the tens of millions of dollars similarly spent by unions which, of course, are corporations.
They have complained that corporatioons promote inequality by sex, race, creed, and sexual orientation.  Yet they make no mention that corporations are not out beating up gays in bars, they are not burning crosses in front yards, they are not out cutting beards off of Amish people.  The vast majority of "-ism" in the United States is committed by warped individuals.  It was CORPORATIONS who put gays, blacks, hispanics, and other minorities in the entertainment media over the past few decades.  Not individuals.


I am not saying that the "Occupiers" do not have some legitimate grievances.  But they see the world as devoid of individual responsibility or culpability.  If they want broad support then they need to provide a more truthful and balanced 'platform'.

They remind me of the father of a buddy of mine.  He was always railing against the corporations and the Republicans (Dems too).  Everybody was out to rip off the little guy in his world view.  Bankers, Jews, politicians... they were all screwing the working man. Then he was charged and convicted by the Feds for embezzling tens of thousands of dollars from the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers... 52 counts in all.  I bet he's all-in with the Occupy folks, railing against The Man.  ::)

Just a nickel's worth of free ten-cent advice...

I don't seen our government as an antidote to corporate power; I see our government as a facilitator of corporate power. 

Any society that does not institute periodic debt relief is asking for an enslaved citizenry so poor they can no longer buy the goods and services that drive the economy.  Our government did exactly the wrong thing.  They bailed out the creditors, not the debtors.  The creditors turned straight back around and kicked everybody in the teeth.  The banks and the corporations don't care if Americans are poor and miserable.  They will take their business elsewhere.  Europe. Brazil.  The Pacific Rim.  The fascists will slash and burn every nation to the ground and then start cannibalizing one another 

The Chicago School Free Market clusterf*ck is over.
::)

I don't seen our government as an antidote to corporate power; I see our government as a facilitator of corporate power. 


And now you know why they're out on the streets, which puts you ahead of what both Democratic and Republican pundits are saying in public.  The open question is whether or not you're ahead of what the Democratic and Republican party's internal analysts understand.

And now you know why they're out on the streets, which puts you ahead of what both Democratic and Republican pundits are saying in public.  The open question is whether or not you're ahead of what the Democratic and Republican party's internal analysts understand.


That's why if Bill Clinton, Al Gore, Barney Frank, Howard Dean or any of those clowns want in on the protests the protesters gotta have cajones to tell them to get lost.  The Democratic party is where populist movements go to die. 

That's why if Bill Clinton, Al Gore, Barney Frank, Howard Dean or any of those clowns want in on the protests the protesters gotta have cajones to tell them to get lost.  The Democratic party is where populist movements go to die.  


Funny you should mention that.  If you read through the Fox spin (which alternates between "Silly non-Republican voters, don't you realize he's trying to be on your side" and "Scary anarchists won won't let a man speak!"), they did precisely that to Rep. John Lewis (D) in Atlanta.

So either way, anyone who supports the government and higher taxes on the wealthy loses, whether it's the Tea Party, Occupy Wall Street, or the GOP or the DNC. Basically, Liberalism in almost every form is dead.

So either way, anyone who supports the government and higher taxes on the wealthy loses, whether it's the Tea Party, Occupy Wall Street, or the GOP or the DNC. Basically, Liberalism in almost every form is dead.


Sorta.  (Last time I checked, the Democrats and #OWS were just fine with with higher taxes on the wealthy, and the Tea Party and GOP weren't fine with higher taxes on the wealthy.  The Democrats and the Republicans support the government, because they are the government...)

But minor policy quibbles aside, that's sorta what #OWS supporters are on about.  They're pissed that it doesn't matter who you vote for, the government (as hired by Goldman Sachs :) wins.

Democrats: The economy sucks and our voting base is disillusioned because "hope and change" lasted about a week after the inauguration.  Co-opting #OWS is our only chance at having boots in the ground for 2012!

Republicans: If the Democrats do manage to turn #OWS into a reliable voting bloc, they'll have an activist base that's as fanatical as our Tea Party, and with a voting demographic that isn't dying of old age!

#OWS: (waves fingers, crosses arms, and makes other goofy-looking hand gestures that serve only to confuse the powers that be.)

Demopublicans: Umm, #OWS dudes?  Don't you know there's an election next year?

#OWS: (repeating) "Umm, Oh-Dubya-Ess Dudes.  Don't You Know There's An Election Next Year."

Republicrats: Yeah, kids.  Would you mind?  We're trying to do some fundraising here!  

Occupy your own consciousness.  Groovy baby.  It's like Marshall McLuhan's Global Village.  You say want to OWS?  Save your bus fare, you did it, man!*

http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/13/icon_shaking2.gif

*borrowing from George Carlin here.

They complain about banks who want to collect on student loans... loans that the Occupy members (I presume) entered into willingly and which are backed by the US Government.  How exactly did the banks screw them over?




They aren't complaining about collecting on the loans, they are complaining, and I believe rightfully so, that the cost of education has skyrocketed to the point that working class people cannot afford to send there kids to college.






The vast majority of "-ism" in the United States is committed by warped individuals.  It was CORPORATIONS who put gays, blacks, hispanics, and other minorities in the entertainment media over the past few decades.  Not individuals. 





Not without the actions of the civil rights occupiers of the 50s and 60s and a court order..  You have heard of the Civil Rights Movement...haven't you

I was going to list all the Occupy sites, but there are so many, and the list continues to grow. 

Not without the actions of the civil rights occupiers of the 50s and 60s and a court order..  You have heard of the Civil Rights Movement...haven't you

There was no court order that caused Hugh Hefner and the network/syndicate to bring performers of all stripes to his ground breaking TV show.  Nor was there any court order or law that caused Gene Roddenberry to write an interracial kiss into Star Trek.  Room 222... another early show with a black woman in a prominent and non-stereotypical role... not caused by any law or court order.

Lance Loud and "An American Family"... one of the earliest TV portrayals of homosexualism... put on TV by a corporation, not by a law forcing such.

Straight Eye for the Queer Guy... not caused by any laws or court orders.

These are but a few of activities that ONLY happened under the auspices and approval of CORPORATIONS.

The movement is spreading for certain.

But I have yet to hear any of the protesters actually articulate a platform.  When you see them interviewed on TV their responses to questions appear to be addled and incoherent.  Yeah we get it... "Wall Street Sucks".  So what exactly do you want to do about it?

Heck, Jesse Jackson Jr yesterday came up with a ridiculous idea for the Fed to simply hire every unemployed person for $40k per year, and slip another $200Bil to the cities and states.  While I think it is a ridiculous idea, at least he's said what he wants to do, been specific.  The "Occupiers" have done no such thing.  Seems more like a Greatful Dead tailgate party than any sort of coherent political movement.

There was no court order that caused Hugh Hefner and the network/syndicate to bring performers of all stripes to his ground breaking TV show.  Nor was there any court order or law that caused Gene Roddenberry to write an interracial kiss into Star Trek.  Room 222... another early show with a black woman in a prominent and non-stereotypical role... not caused by any law or court order.

Lance Loud and "An American Family"... one of the earliest TV portrayals of homosexualism... put on TV by a corporation, not by a law forcing such.

Straight Eye for the Queer Guy... not caused by any laws or court orders.

These are but a few of activities that ONLY happened under the auspices and approval of CORPORATIONS.


This is one of those "well I know this one guy" arguments.  There have always been those who have bucked the system, widespread change wasn't brought about until it was legislated.  Those few activities weren't all that welcome by the corporations.  The interracial kiss on Star Trek, along with Julia, and I Spy, were not shown in many places, mostly the South and Midwest, because the corporations didn't want to offend the sensibilities of "decent" people.  Do not make the mistake that corporations were doing these things for any intrinsic social value, although the creators may have been.

The movement is spreading for certain.

But I have yet to hear any of the protesters actually articulate a platform.  When you see them interviewed on TV their responses to questions appear to be addled and incoherent.  Yeah we get it... "Wall Street Sucks".  So what exactly do you want to do about it?

Heck, Jesse Jackson Jr yesterday came up with a ridiculous idea for the Fed to simply hire every unemployed person for $40k per year, and slip another $200Bil to the cities and states.  While I think it is a ridiculous idea, at least he's said what he wants to do, been specific.  The "Occupiers" have done no such thing.  Seems more like a Greatful Dead tailgate party than any sort of coherent political movement.


The first step in solving a problem is admitting that you have one

The movement is spreading for certain.

But I have yet to hear any of the protesters actually articulate a platform.  When you see them interviewed on TV their responses to questions appear to be addled and incoherent.  Yeah we get it... "Wall Street Sucks".  So what exactly do you want to do about it?

Heck, Jesse Jackson Jr yesterday came up with a ridiculous idea for the Fed to simply hire every unemployed person for $40k per year, and slip another $200Bil to the cities and states.  While I think it is a ridiculous idea, at least he's said what he wants to do, been specific.  The "Occupiers" have done no such thing.  Seems more like a Greatful Dead tailgate party than any sort of coherent political movement.


It remains to be seen if OWS will stand up to the cold weather and the sharp end of the legal stick.  My guess is OWS will peter out.  Business as usual might not return, though.  The ravages of Friedman's BS is rendering our economy a feeble hulk collapsing under its own weight.  The face of the occupation will change when the occupiers are now homeless and hungry.  They're not scaring anyone looking like they've got the week off from their computer jobs. 

What's more is the face of the current OWS is not the face of American poverty.  It's well-fed progressives. 

The more radical voices restrain themselves amid cries for nonviolence.  If I went down there waving a red flag and shouting, "Don't occupy it, burn it to the ground!," I'd get hauled off by the cops PDQ. 

The protesters are left with not much to say because "Wall Street" is so corrupt there is no reforming it.  What can you do with a gangrenous limb?
:o

What can you do with a gangrenous limb?
:o


Cut that mofo off...  :o

The protesters are left with not much to say because "Wall Street" is so corrupt there is no reforming it. 


Funny you should mention that.  Even disgraced (as in charged with civil securities fraud, banned from the industry permanently, and paid $4M in fines and disgorgements) dot-com analyst Henry Blodget seems to understand what the protests are about.

As far their public pronouncements go, it's as if (D) and (R) teams have gone out of their way in trying not to understand what happens when you have a large mass of educated people who have no employment prospects.  Despite the fact that everyone on the internet - yes, even everyone here in our little backwater of the 'tubes - has been covering the story, albeit from different perspectives, over the past couple of years, and knows how it plays out.

My two cents about equality/inequality.

There is a lot of talk about income "inequality" or wealth "inequality."  This terminology is deceptive.  Unless you're a commie crank of the highest order, you don't believe everybody should have "equal" incomes or "equal" wealth.  When commentators talk about income inequality it sounds like people protesting the status quo want a cookie cutter egalitarian society where you're not allowed to have so much as an extra tomato plant more than your neighbor.

I don't buy the saw that socialism is just misery dealt out in equal portions.  I am also quite offended by Romney's assumption that everybody wants to be rich.  I'm not particularly interested in being rich.  Here's what I want:

A secure job that pays for a reliable car and a clean functional apartment in a quiet neighborhood with reasonable rent.  I don't even need to own the place.  I don't require private property.

I'd like to buy some new clothes.  Not many.  Enough good pairs of pants and shirts t get me through week.  The right footwear for all seasons.  And I'd like a couple of nice dress up suits for special occasions.  That's about it.  

As for food, I'm a meat and potatoes kind of guy.  I have a peasant's palate.  I'd like to make enough dough to take a broad our to the steakhouse every couple of weeks.  Other than that, I'm happy with pasta and meat sauce.  I just don't have yen for nightly hauteur cuisine.  

Car:  A reliable vehicle that gets me from point a to point b, handles well in the snow, and comes with a relatively decent stereo because I like to listen to music when I drive.

Disposable income: I'd like to be able to bu books and music, go to good concerts, which pretty cheap if you like contemporary classical or experimental jazz.  Tonight, for instance, had comp tickets the American Gamelan Ensemble's performance at Bard College.  The percussionist, William Winant, put me on the list for the asking because I play his stuff on my radio program.  All I had to do was pay for the gas getting to Bard and back.  

In other words, I'm an easy guy to please.  I have some esoteric tastes, but know how to get free tickets and free music, so it's all pretty cheap!

I don't want to be rich.  Hear me Mitt?  You said you wanted everybody to be rich.  That's nuttier than anything anybody says at OWS.  I don't want to be equal to you.  I just want a nice, safe, secure, low-stress life.

Here's the toughie:  Cancel my student loans so I can build up credit and get out of debt slavery.  Either that, or give me a job that pays well enough so I can feed the debt beast every month and still live the same comfortable life.  

Granted these few simple things, I would gladly work hard to contribute to society.

Penury, desperation, and debt slavery as far as the eye can see...I say **** it!  Let it die.  I'll be better off if the banks fail and the stock market crashes.  I got no dog in that fight.  Fuggem.  

Inequality is truly fine with me.  If your thing is working 80 hours a week to get that big house in the burbs and that status symbol Mercedes, the have at it.  I don't care as long as I can maintain and be secure in my more modest ambitions.

I am not interested in social equality.  I am interested in social justice.  The giant gap between the wealth of the top % and the bottom 50% is causing social injustice.  That's my gripe.  The OWS protesters need to talk more about social justice and less about social equlity, which is impossible and undesirable in the first place.

^  http://www.fourlugthugs.com/images/smilies/2%20thumbs%20up%20smiley.jpg

Yes Max, I think that what you want is more or less what most of us want, and it use to be feasible for most of us, but not so much now, with the top 1% owning more than the bottom 90% combined.  This gross inequality slows growth, increases joblessness, destroys families and leads to increasing crime.  That's why redistributive policies and controls on unbridled wealth are necessary

  That's why redistributive policies and controls on unbridled wealth are necessary


;D

"Occupy Canada has quiet Sunday, plans 'large impact' event for Monday"

TORONTO - A day after kicking off their movement with loud voices and larger numbers, Canadians who gathered to decry corporate greed and social inequality spent Sunday nailing down their action plan for the coming week through long meetings with smaller groups.

Many taking part in the Occupy Canada movement have braved crisp autumn weather to camp out at parks in various cities including Toronto, Halifax, Montreal, Edmonton and Vancouver.

By late Sunday afternoon their numbers had thinned, but many expected their ranks to swell on Monday as the financial sectors they were protesting re-opened.

Yes Max, I think that what you want is more or less what most of us want, and it use to be feasible for most of us, but not so much now, with the top 1% owning more than the bottom 90% combined.  This gross inequality slows growth, increases joblessness, destroys families and leads to increasing crime.  That's why redistributive policies and controls on unbridled wealth are necessary


What I resent is the conceit of the Romney class who assume If I could choose, I would choose to be just like them!  Wouldn't anybody? Ain't we swell?
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/13/jerk.gif

Canada CBC

Kevin O'Leary calls Chris Hedges a "left-wing nutbar!"
Hedges gets huffy and tells the lady when she says thank you for joining us,
"It'll be the last time."

Hedges is one of my favorative commontators, but he needs a better sense of humor!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQzq_WbH4E0

I am not interested in social equality.  I am interested in social justice.  The giant gap between the wealth of the top % and the bottom 50% is causing social injustice.  That's my gripe.  The OWS protesters need to talk more about social justice and less about social equlity, which is impossible and undesirable in the first place.


Hmm.  You're onto something here.

As someone who's never really given a flip about either concept (give my ego the benefit of the doubt and assume I'm part of the 10%, but I'd be the first to concede that I'm still squarely in the 99%), I grew up with a tendency to conflate the two.  I've given so little thought to the distinction that I don't see a difference between the two concepts.  That's not because I really believe that "social justice" and "social equality" are necessarily the same, only because I never gave enough of a damn to think that there might be.


As for food, I'm a meat and potatoes kind of guy.  I have a peasant's palate.  I'd like to make enough dough to take a broad our to the steakhouse every couple of weeks.  Other than that, I'm happy with pasta and meat sauce.  I just don't have yen for nightly hauteur cuisine.  

Unless you're looking for a baseline or reference steak, why go the steakhouse when you can cook your own for a quarter of the price?  I am a foodie, and part of the fun of being a foodie is that I can get a $100 meal for $30, and a $20 meal for $5.  If my dwelling smells like an Italian bistro until tomorrow night because I let a sauce simmer for 6 hours today, that's not a bug, it's a feature!

Canada CBC

Kevin O'Leary calls Chris Hedges a "left-wing nutbar!"
Hedges gets huffy and tells the lady when she says thank you for joining us,
"It'll be the last time."

Hedges is one of my favorative commontators, but he needs a better sense of humor!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQzq_WbH4E0

After the show, Hedges accused O'Leary of "character assassination" and compared the quality and nature of the interview to the likes of "FOX News".  A CBC's ombudsman (CBC is the network this show is on)  found O'Leary's behaviour to be a violation of the public broadcaster's journalistic standards.

Max, your watch more Canadian politics than 95% of all Canadians.  And that number I put down might be low-balling it. ;D

After the show, Hedges accused O'Leary of "character assassination" and compared the quality and nature of the interview to the likes of "FOX News".  A CBC's ombudsman (CBC is the network this show is on)  found O'Leary's behaviour to be a violation of the public broadcaster's journalistic standards.

Max, your watch more Canadian politics than 95% of all Canadians.  And that number I put down might be low-balling it. ;D


I don't know much about the machinations of Canadian politics, but Canada is an interesting country.  It's got a lot going for it.  Low population, high standard of living, lots of natural resources.  Canada has its problems, but it's not on a societal kamikaze mission like the U.S.

Hedges has a lot to say and I hate to see him cutting himself off from main stream media because he's so touchy.  I wonder why he doesn't realize the most disarming tactic is laughter.  If Hedges had chuckled when O'Leary called him a "left wing nutbar," it would have taken the wind right out of O'Leary's sails.  "Left wing Nutbar" sounds like a high protein snack!
;D

Has anybody occupied Poland yet?

Has anybody occupied Poland yet?


http://i.imgur.com/QDZFV.jpg

(Philbo remembered Poland, Maine.  Lech's probably never heard of it :)

http://i.imgur.com/QDZFV.jpg

(Philbo remembered Poland, Maine.  Lech's probably never heard of it :)


http://imagethumbnails.milo.com/001/663/576/290/1663774_278576_290.jpg

Back on a more serious note, this one's been making the rounds as Democratic pundits try to hijack the movement.  (There's more than fifty people, more than fifty people a day tweeting #OccupyAlicesRestaurant, and my friends, that makes it a movement.)

http://i.imgur.com/Kp5b7.jpg

And also on a serious note, the editorial cartoonists are beginning to figure it out too:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/314667_277930645573461_100000695842137_926065_1100602554_n.jpg

Everybody can be bought, even "isocrats."

(Philbo remembered Poland, Maine.  Lech's probably never heard of it :)

Philbo didn't remember Poland, Maine - he just guessed there would be somewhere in the US called Poland and used google maps :)  But also guessed there wouldn't be anywhere in the US called Sudetenland.

Philbo didn't remember Poland, Maine - he just guessed there would be somewhere in the US called Poland and used google maps :)  But also guessed there wouldn't be anywhere in the US called Sudetenland.


Or a black Neville Chamberlain who thought Satan would honor agreements for peace in our time!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/09/sasmokin.gif

And now the anti-semites have joined the Occupy (fill in city name here) Movement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMjm4LxFa1c

When you are looking for somebody to blame for your own problems, you can always fall back on blaming the Jews.  >:(

^ wow, that wasn't briskly edited or taken out of context or anything.  ::) reason TV makes me crazy. they're the masters of dishonest video editing. breitbart could take a lesson from them.

best part is, she starts off saying she only represents herself, so, um, yeah. plus, we have no idea when this vid was actually filmed. the cons are circulating a protest photo from 2007 and trying to pass it off as an OWS vid. all this sorta stuff needs to be approached with a seriously critical eye. this is murdoch's latest thing, trying to smear OWS as antisemitic.

And now the anti-semites have joined the Occupy (fill in city name here) Movement.


When you are looking for somebody to blame for your own problems, you can always fall back on blaming the Jews.   >:(


Aw, she's just bitter 'cos she got beat with the ugly stick.
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/08/pyth.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJgumT70FSY

^ wow, that wasn't briskly edited or taken out of context or anything.  ::) reason TV makes me crazy. they're the masters of dishonest video editing. breitbart could take a lesson from them.


That's a pretty sad attempt at muckraking, I'll agree, but I'll give them props for being prettyreally good at satire:

4QTfNEDgusQ

But this isn't about Reason magazine doing a solid Dylan/Guthrie parody/mashup.  

This is also about how #OWS got off the ground where other protest movements didn't.  (There's a lot of useful information on the history of the movement in that nakedcapitalism.com article for everyone following this story, whether you're for, against, or just observing the thing from the sidelines.)

I have a hunch that people (again, regardless of which side, if any, they choose to take) are also going to want to follow Wired's coverage of the parallels between #OWS and Anonymous.

Well here's some more:

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/10/charges_of_occupy_wall_street_anti_semitism_find_audience_on_the_right.php

And here is one who wants to vilify bankers and Jews because he does not want to pay his own way.  He feels that it is his human right for other people to pay his way.  Blames it on the Jewish Billionaires.  "Jews are the 1%", says he.  Also "O'bama is a Jewish puppet" and he then goes on to enumerate the overrepresented Jews in the Administration and the fed-state-local judiciaries.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NWwK5TBcoUY#!

Of course he comes off as a flake, but his position is about as articulate as any other that I've seen from an "occupier".

You can't muckrake unless there is muck to rake...

You can't muckrake unless there is muck to rake...

er.. that's about as true as "there's no smoke without fire".  If you want to muckrake, and there's no muck - just make it up, and it's more likely to be believed than anything true if it's about your political enemies.

so what's your implication, LB? are you implying all the OWSers are antisemites? i definitely consider myself an OWSer. do you think I'M an antisemite?

it's a scurrilous accusation. it crosses the line.

so what's your implication, LB? are you implying all the OWSers are antisemites? i definitely consider myself an OWSer. do you think I'M an antisemite?


The idea is we're being duped by the anti-Semites...Black anti-Semites!  The Dem-o-crat party is a shill for Elijah Mohammed!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/11/bom.gif

so what's your implication, LB? are you implying all the OWSers are antisemites? i definitely consider myself an OWSer. do you think I'M an antisemite?

it's a scurrilous accusation. it crosses the line.


No different than those who characterize the Tea Party as a racist movement.

So I've made my point...

No different than those who characterize the Tea Party as a racist movement.

So I've made my point...


The Tea baggers defined themselves better than anybody else could!
::)

^that

No different than those who characterize the Tea Party as a racist movement.

So I've made my point...
the problem with that comparison is that you had official spokespeople in the tea party saying racist things ON TELEVISION and making it an official part of their platform. you'll have my ear when a high-profile 99%er starts blaming the jews on television or making blog posts about the "holocaust industry" the same way mark williams -- a tea party spokesperson, not a random person on the street -- wrote an unbelievably vile racist memo and put the tea party's name to it, or when you can find a 99%er who does to a jew what breitbart did to shirley sherrod. until then you're just grabbing vids of flakes who are trying to stick themselves to the movement. you have to realize, i am familiar with people on the left comparing bush to hitler occasionally on the streets of a demonstration, because like i say, there's no entrance exam and anyone can pretend to participate in a movement, but glenn beck has repeatedly compared liberals to hitler ON TELEVISION and he's a big figure in the tea partier movement. if you're upset with the tea party being associated with racism and extremism, give your leaders hell, because they're where that's coming from. and if you can find an OWSer SPOKESPERSON who's openly antisemitic the way williams, breitbart, and fox are openly racist, i will give them similar hell. because i do NOT want antisemitic spokespeople LEADING my movement the way you have open racists leading yours.

^thatthe problem with that comparison is that you had official spokespeople in the tea party saying racist things ON TELEVISION and making it an official part of their platform. you'll have my ear when a high-profile 99%er starts blaming the jews on television or making blog posts about the "holocaust industry" the same way mark williams -- a tea party spokesperson, not a random person on the street -- wrote an unbelievably vile racist memo and put the tea party's name to it, or when you can find a 99%er who does to a jew what breitbart did to shirley sherrod. until then you're just grabbing vids of flakes who are trying to stick themselves to the movement. you have to realize, i am familiar with people on the left comparing bush to hitler occasionally on the streets of a demonstration, because like i say, there's no entrance exam and anyone can pretend to participate in a movement, but glenn beck has repeatedly compared liberals to hitler ON TELEVISION and he's a big figure in the tea partier movement. if you're upset with the tea party being associated with racism and extremism, give your leaders hell, because they're where that's coming from. and if you can find an OWSer SPOKESPERSON who's openly antisemitic the way williams, breitbart, and fox are openly racist, i will give them similar hell. because i do NOT want antisemitic spokespeople LEADING my movement the way you have open racists leading yours.

http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/12/hello2.gif

Speaking of Breitbart, the Right has been shockingly slow with their cointelpro.  If I worked for Murdoch, I would have recruited a mob of agents provocateur to run around with dumb signs and say stupid crap to the press...

Oh.
:-\\

^thatthe problem with that comparison is that you had official spokespeople in the tea party saying racist things ON TELEVISION and making it an official part of their platform. you'll have my ear when a high-profile 99%er starts blaming the jews on television or making blog posts about the "holocaust industry" the same way mark williams -- a tea party spokesperson, not a random person on the street -- wrote an unbelievably vile racist memo and put the tea party's name to it, or when you can find a 99%er who does to a jew what breitbart did to shirley sherrod. until then you're just grabbing vids of flakes who are trying to stick themselves to the movement. you have to realize, i am familiar with people on the left comparing bush to hitler occasionally on the streets of a demonstration, because like i say, there's no entrance exam and anyone can pretend to participate in a movement, but glenn beck has repeatedly compared liberals to hitler ON TELEVISION and he's a big figure in the tea partier movement. if you're upset with the tea party being associated with racism and extremism, give your leaders hell, because they're where that's coming from. and if you can find an OWSer SPOKESPERSON who's openly antisemitic the way williams, breitbart, and fox are openly racist, i will give them similar hell. because i do NOT want antisemitic spokespeople LEADING my movement the way you have open racists leading yours.


Have I told you lately that I love you    :)

Kids, it's time for y'all to meet Scott Olsen.

He's a former US Marine who served two tours of duty in Iraq, and was lucky enough to make it back with no injuries. 

But Iraq didn't prepare him for the antics of the Oakland Police, who shot him in the head with some sort of less-lethal round (possibly a tear gas canister) at a few feet range. 

OPD declared the assembly unlawful, and clearly and vocally preannounced their intention to use tear gas.  Olsen was one of two VFP protestors standing between the two lines of barricades; maybe that position made him a legitimate target under whatever rules of engagement the police were operating. 

Maybe the first shot was an accident -- maybe the cop behind the barricade intended to lob a round into the crowd, but Olsen, standing between the barricade, took it in the head instead.  (One would assume that a cop would be able to aim over a person's head, but cops aren't known for their marksmanship.)

But what seems very clear is that the second shot was no accident.  A few seconds later, when a few civilians came in to render assistance, a different police officer tossed some sort of small explosive device (variously described as a flash-bang, baton round/stinger round, or tear gas canister, and I don't have the expertise to speculate as to which) directly into the group of 10 or so civilians who have crouched down around the wounded man.

The video clip has made national news this week.  Here's the most neutral analysis I can find. 

8kA1yP5eFuE

Congratulations, Oakland PD.  For a bunch of people who were actually being relatively professional about things that morning when the camps were first cleared, by the end of the day, you still managed to come within milliseconds of giving #OWS its Kent State moment.  Fortunately for you, Olsen was only in critical condition last night, but has since regained the ability to communicate using hand signals, and although he cannot yet speak, his status has been upgraded to "fair" earlier today.

Congratulations #OWS civilians, for going right the hell back in there and taking Olsen to safety anyways.  You've learned something important: never leave a man behind.

May the ghost of Fred Hampton rise and kick some OPD ass!
8)

Do flash-bang grenades work like Batman fight scenes where graphics pop up? ???

https://app.icontact.com/icp/loadimage.php/mogile/748153/074f66201570ab083e0d66175ebf6cc5/image/gif

Do flash-bang grenades work like Batman fight scenes where graphics pop up? ???

https://app.icontact.com/icp/loadimage.php/mogile/748153/074f66201570ab083e0d66175ebf6cc5/image/gif


#OWS
POW #OWS
OW
OW
OW
OW!!!

The occupiers took to the streets of Philadelphia last night creating a massive gridlock in the city. This is where, regardless of the cause,
you lose me as a supporter. I know an outdated piece of paper that had relevance 200 years ago gives you the right to gather and the
right to protest but that paper doesn't give you the right to infringe on the citizens rights to go about their business. Who is caught up
in the traffic jam you caused; the man trying to get to his wife who is in labor? The person who didn't get the job because they were
late to an interview? How about someone who just wants to get home after a long day. They all have a right to not be included in your
need to be noticed but people only care about rights when it applies to them or their selfish cause.

Another thing I noticed is that a lot of occupiers are wearing jerseys of the local sports teams. This tells me the hipocrites, I mean occupiers,
believe that corporate greed = bad; individual greed = good. I've read on these boards that atheletes should try for the biggest contracts
and the most money they can get. Is that any different then what the corporation bigwigs are doing? What if they threw a World Series
Game 7 and no one came? That would make more of an impact then sitting in a park or blocking traffic. Don't block traffic and make the
little guy suffer, boycott professional venues. Athletes, after all, are part of the 1%.

They are fighting the right war but against the wrong enemy. For years Congress has been allowing big business to run amok and collect massive
wealth and all Politicians, from Alderman to President, benefit from it. Their pockets get fatter from big business yet we keep voting these clowns
into office. That is where your battle should be.

The occupiers took to the streets of Philadelphia last night creating a massive gridlock in the city. This is where, regardless of the cause,
you lose me as a supporter. I know an outdated piece of paper that had relevance 200 years ago gives you the right to gather and the
right to protest but that paper doesn't give you the right to infringe on the citizens rights to go about their business. Who is caught up
in the traffic jam you caused; the man trying to get to his wife who is in labor? The person who didn't get the job because they were
late to an interview? How about someone who just wants to get home after a long day. They all have a right to not be included in your
need to be noticed but people only care about rights when it applies to them or their selfish cause.

Another thing I noticed is that a lot of occupiers are wearing jerseys of the local sports teams. This tells me the hipocrites, I mean occupiers,
believe that corporate greed = bad; individual greed = good. I've read on these boards that atheletes should try for the biggest contracts
and the most money they can get. Is that any different then what the corporation bigwigs are doing? What if they threw a World Series
Game 7 and no one came? That would make more of an impact then sitting in a park or blocking traffic. Don't block traffic and make the
little guy suffer, boycott professional venues. Athletes, after all, are part of the 1%.

They are fighting the right war but against the wrong enemy. For years Congress has been allowing big business to run amok and collect massive
wealth and all Politicians, from Alderman to President, benefit from it. Their pockets get fatter from big business yet we keep voting these clowns
into office. That is where yor battle should be.



I agree about government but you cannot separate Wall Street and government.  Corporate lobbyists exercise undue influence over Congress.  Government needs to regulate commercial interests tightly or else commercial interests will dominate the entire culture, which is exactly what happened at an alarming rate since Reagan.  The message is markets are good, government is bad.  The truth is government provides the structure that allows markets to function.  Capitalism without government is like a roof without a house.

I too believe government is more culpable than the corporations.  Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.  Corporations have a place in society, but we cannot allow them to run society.  Corporations exist to make profits.  Nothing else.  Your well being is not their interest, only your money.  The conman will try to con you.  It's your responsibility not to get conned.  Corporations con our politicians into working to increase corporate profits rather than the welfare of the people who elected them. 

Here's the rub.  Congress has an approval rating of 9%.  Thus, you would think the public gets it.  However, next election just watch and see how many incumbents win.  Congress sucks, but my congressman is one of the good guys.  Massachusetts re-elected Kerry and Kennedy even after they failed to stand up against Bush v. Gore and the Iraq War.  Both events outraged Massachusetts liberals, but we still voted for our Democratic senators because -- if nothing else -- if we don't, a Republican will win.  The two party system doesn't work anymore.

I also agree it is ironic to see the protesters wearing logos for big business and professional sports franchises.  I wouldn't wear a sports jersey to a protest, but I think it's pretty inconsequential to the issues.

They are fighting the right war but against the wrong enemy. For years Congress has been allowing big business to run amok and collect massive
wealth and all Politicians, from Alderman to President, benefit from it. Their pockets get fatter from big business yet we keep voting these clowns
into office. That is where your battle should be.


The problem is that citiziens can only vote for the clowns that "the 1%" (namely those who fund the campaigns and hire the lobbyists who launder the money through the PACs) nominate.

http://i.imgur.com/KsKme.jpg

Until government ceases to be worth bribing, we're going to be living with a bought-and-sold government.

It's sorta like this:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-iaKgQja7IkI/TeV9fEpMlCI/AAAAAAAAAu0/rFwoqq-apYs/s1600/subgenius_big.jpg

...except that my Yeti-descended kin never got to take over, so we're ruled by Goldman Sachs instead, and we Life After X-Day isn't quite what I'd hoped it would be.

But I'm with you on the blocking of public streets.  Part of the reason they've been able to keep going so long is that they keep finding clever ways to get around each locality's time-and-place restrictions.  If following the letter of the law while bending the spirit of the law into pretzels is OK for lawyers, it's OK for #OWS.  

Consider the following three examples.

Some Random Politician: I did not have sex with that woman.  (Using one of my subordinates as a human humidor isn't sex.)
Citigroup and "regulators" at the SEC: How about we give the SEC $285M and none of our top brass goes to jail.  (Even a judge had a problem with that.)
#OWS: OK, if we can't have megaphones, then everybody shouts out what the speaker just said!  "OK!  IF WE CAN'T HAVE MEGAPHONES, THEN EVERYBODY SHOUTS OUT WHAT THE SPEAKER JUST SAID!"

If an assembly blocks a public street, someone's doing it wrong.  If 100 people walk across an intersection when the light turns green, and because pedestrians have the right-of-way, and nobody can turn right at that light, and traffic backs up?  Well, as long as nobody enters in the intersection when the light turns red (or, depending on jurisdiction, when the flashing hand goes to a solid hand) and commits the offense of jaywalking - the cops can play this game too - well, then, all's fair.

By way of analogy, if 10000 people a day said something like "No sir, my baggage has not been under my control for at all times.  My baggage is out of my control right now.  I cannot see it from here.  It is not within arm's reach.  I believe one of your co-workers is in control of it", the entire airline system would collapse.

The most destructive thing any citizen can do to an oppressive bureaucracy is to follow every one of its laws, policies, and rules to the letter.

The occupiers took to the streets of Philadelphia last night creating a massive gridlock in the city. This is where, regardless of the cause,
you lose me as a supporter. I know an outdated piece of paper that had relevance 200 years ago gives you the right to gather and the
right to protest but that paper doesn't give you the right to infringe on the citizens rights to go about their business.

When you live in DC as long as I have, you learn that protests disrupting traffic is inevitable, and nonpartisan. I've seen my city's traffic disrupted by Operation Rescue demos and Million-Man March demos and Anti-Iraq War Demos and every denomination in between. The disruption caused by a good protest is unavoidable, typically not intended (at least by the protesters), and no side of the political spectrum owns the phenomenon. If you ever feel strongly enough about a cause to gather in the streets with like-minded citizens in similar numbers, you'll cause traffic problems too.



Another thing I noticed is that a lot of occupiers are wearing jerseys of the local sports teams. This tells me the hipocrites, I mean occupiers,
believe that corporate greed = bad; individual greed = good. I've read on these boards that atheletes should try for the biggest contracts
and the most money they can get. Is that any different then what the corporation bigwigs are doing? What if they threw a World Series
Game 7 and no one came? That would make more of an impact then sitting in a park or blocking traffic. Don't block traffic and make the
little guy suffer, boycott professional venues. Athletes, after all, are part of the 1%.the difference between an athlete and these wall street characters is, if an athlete doesn't care or is just in it for the cash, no one's hurt except the fans who bought a ticket. and they're only out the price of a ticket. that's because in no place on an athlete's contract are our pensions, 401(k)s, or mortgages ever mentioned. When Wall Street decides to play the numbers to make big fees and bonuses, people lose their homes. they lose their retirement. they get laid off. that's a big difference.

They are fighting the right war but against the wrong enemy. For years Congress has been allowing big business to run amok and collect massive
wealth and all Politicians, from Alderman to President, benefit from it. Their pockets get fatter from big business yet we keep voting these clowns
into office. That is where your battle should be.

there isn't an ounce of daylight between government and finance anymore. that's the point. if there's any one message the OWSers are trying to convey, i'm gonna presume and speak for them and say it's that: government and commerce should be separate entities. elected government should trim private enterprise's excesses, and private enterprise should provide the people with needed services where profitable and bestow needed and positive innovation that will aid the people, government and society to make progress. look back to the days of FDR and Eisenhower if you wanna see that setup. What we have now is a confidence game. And until government and industry go back to the cooperative but adversarial relationship they had in the middle of the last century, things are just gonna get worse.

Really, I think that's the core OWS message. It's like that old reese's cup commercial: "you've got your government in my private enterprise." "You've got your private enterprise in my government." and THAT's the problem.

With apologies to Yakov Smirnoff:

In Cold War America, we demonstrated when we wanted to see the light of democracy shine upon the corners of the world that had been darkened by totalitarianism.

In Soviet RussiaMuslim Egypt, pro-democracy demonstrators took to the streets to rally for Americans' freedom, and nobody got tear-gassed.

What a country.

In Soviet RussiaMuslim Egypt, pro-democracy demonstrators took to the streets to rally for Americans' freedom, and nobody got tear-gassed.

What a country.


Indeed. The Muslim Egyptians were too busy burning down Coptic churches and gang raping female journalists...

Indeed. The Muslim Egyptians were too busy burning down Coptic churches and gang raping female journalists...

That's not just chronologically- and statistically-challenged, it's intellectually-challenged as well.

This little gadget might explain some of the discrepancies between the accounts of the events in Oakland.

The debate's gone something like this:

Oakland Cops: Nuh-uh, we didn't throw a flash-bang on at the demonstrators.  And nobody shot them with rubber bullets either!

#OccupyOakland: Then how come we have that footage of something you threw at us going *boom*, and pictures of people with big bruises and fistfuls of little round rubber pellets they collected?

Reading between the lines, it suggests that the guy who tossed the whatever-it-was may not have been an Oakland cop.  He could have been one of the cops bussed in from numerous nearby police agencies as part of the raid.  And here's a type of grenade that's not a flash-bang, but which is a source of rubber bullets that aren't propelled by firearms (they're propelled by the grenade breaking up), and are therefore not shot at protestors.

Hornet's Nest Sting Grenade.

But it (and other "behavior modifification devices" like it) sure does go "boom" when tossed in the general direction of a crowd, and it does send a bunch of little rubber pellets flying painfully all over the place.

It's been pretty peaceful around the world this week, but given the events in Europe over the summer, and Portland over the weekend, Oakland last night, and New York this morning, it's probably time for a refresher course.

The best way to watch a riot is on the Internet, and the best way to survive a riot without injury is to not be in one.  But if the riots come to you...

http://craphound.com/images/5cVgH.jpg

I don't think we're anywhere near "there" yet, and I hope we never get "there", but hope is not a strategy, so you should also probably have a copy of the FAQ.

Because it's better to have a copy of the FAQ when you don't need it, than to need the FAQ when you don't have a copy of it.

American Way threatened by us
Drag a few creeps away in a bus

American Way prisoner lock
Smash every creep in the face with a rock

-- Frank Zappa

American Way threatened by us
Drag a few creeps away in a bus

American Way prisoner lock
Smash every creep in the face with a rock

-- Frank Zappa

The problem with that is the definition of "creep"

Maybe he was slightly ahead of his time, and just meant Radiohead.

The problem with that is the definition of "creep"



I only wish Frank was still around to ask.
:\'(

I wonder why the 'Occupiers' didn't chain their wrists to each other and around trees within PVC piping?  That always slows down the mass arrests etc.  Of course it is kinda hard to protect your face from mace and pepper spray when you're chained through a pipe to somebody else. 

I wonder why the 'Occupiers' didn't chain their wrists to each other and around trees within PVC piping?  That always slows down the mass arrests etc.  Of course it is kinda hard to protect your face from mace and pepper spray when you're chained through a pipe to somebody else. 
they did actually lock themselves to each other with U-shaped bike locks. not sure how the johnnies ripped them out of them but i imagine it was painful.

I wonder why the 'Occupiers' didn't chain their wrists to each other and around trees within PVC piping?  That always slows down the mass arrests etc.  Of course it is kinda hard to protect your face from mace and pepper spray when you're chained through a pipe to somebody else.  


Speaking on behalf of California, to avoid the q-tips.

The site I linked is (obviously) biased, but I remember reading some of those editorials, and I remember seeing footage of the incident aired on TV.  Footage of the incident was widely covered by both local and national media.  Although I'm kinda grateful that I can't find the video of the 1997 event on YouTube and didn't have to rewatch it, I'll award Karma for anyone who can find it.

If you can find it, it's worth watching.  The cop just dips his Q-tip into a vial of capsaicin and goes full Clockwork Orange on the protestor.  Cop calmly pulls back the protestor's eyelid and brushes a pepper-spray-dipped Q-tip right across the cornea.  A scene straight out of Room 101, but with hot sauce instead of rats.

they actually show that q-tip footage on "Russia Today" pretty frequently, believe it or not.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AdDLhPwpp4

Speaking on behalf of California, to avoid the q-tips.

The site I linked is (obviously) biased, but I remember reading some of those editorials, and I remember seeing footage of the incident aired on TV.  Footage of the incident was widely covered by both local and national media.  Although I'm kinda grateful that I can't find the video of the 1997 event on YouTube and didn't have to rewatch it, I'll award Karma for anyone who can find it.

If you can find it, it's worth watching.  The cop just dips his Q-tip into a vial of capsaicin and goes full Clockwork Orange on the protestor.  Cop calmly pulls back the protestor's eyelid and brushes a pepper-spray-dipped Q-tip right across the cornea.  A scene straight out of Room 101, but with hot sauce instead of rats.


Sounds like slot of work. I'd just spray 'em.

the q-tip method probably gives the johnnies a bit more of a boner. it's truly sadistic.

What ever happened to the good old days, when the po po just hit everybody with a billyclub? ???

Now they got Tasers, pepper spray, and all this high tech stuff.

They just don't get it. The harder they push, the harder people are going to push back. When OWS started, no one was paying attention. What got people to pay attention? THIS:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZ05rWx1pig

From there the movement escalated. I think if the cops left well enough alone, the movement would have faded away. But the more & more incidents like this happen, more & more people are going to join and it is just going to get bigger.



Cat

they actually show that q-tip footage on "Russia Today" pretty frequently, believe it or not.


That doesn't surprise me, given that RT is basically Putin's network.  RT is to Putinistas what Fox News is to Republicans.  But thanks, because now I know where to look for the footage :)


the q-tip method probably gives the johnnies a bit more of a boner. it's truly sadistic.


This.


Sounds like lots of work. I'd just spray 'em.


Your wish is Lt. Pike's command!  
http://k.wigflip.com/SeEpeOFQ/roflbot.jpg

(Hard to choose between that one or Lawsuit in a Can.  Here's the original for everyone's image macro purposes!  Congratulations, Lt. Pike!  You're a meme!)

Here's the scene from UC Davis a couple of days ago in full context: 15 minutes of unedited footage.  

The first 5 minutes - illustrate that the cops were (technically) surrounded.  That's the excuse they'll use.

The critical moment probably occurs at or near 3:45-4:15.  The group considers (via human mic) asking the cops to politely leave, but as this is going on, there's a conversation (Isn't the Internet neat?  I can see the same event from dozens of raw footage feeds) between Lt. Pike and an anonymous protestor, who says "you're gonna shoot me for sitting here", Lt. Pike says "yes", (I speculate that there's probably some ambiguity on both sides between whether "shoot" refers to bullets or less-than-lethal weapons), but the crowd gets a wind of it, and the chanting begins, and the die is cast by 4:30.

Could have been avoided if the protestors had simply broken their line to let the pcops leave.  Could have been avoided if the cops had simply asked to leave.  Or if the cops had simply decided to walk away by stepping over the line of immobile, seated protestors.

Amongst the cops, there's a small conversation (and some radio traffic, possibly to ask for authorization), and at or near 6:30 (here's your money shot, LyricBoy!), Lt. Pike "breaks out" of the "dangerous" situation of being "surrounded" by casually stepping over the line of seated protestors before giving them a liberal dose of the pepper spray.  

K8Uj1cV97XQ

Then it gets really interesting.  The protestors' line, having been broken (the ethics of the use of force are questionable, but it was undeniably effective), enables the police to regroup.  Rather than trying to retake the quad, they retreat after several minutes of "shame on you" chanting - and despite the raising of weapons (paintball guns presumably loaded with pepper spray pellets at or near 12:30-13:30), the crowd allows the police to leave (again via human mic, and with better audio and video showing the weapons being raised at 6:00-7:10 in this third video), and this time, the cops actually back down.

"We are willing to give you a brief moment of peace, so that you may take your weapons, and your friends, and go.  Please do not return.  We are giving you a moment of peace.  You can go.  We will not follow you.  You can go."

Later that night, the Chancellor of the University:

nmfIuKelOt4

Shunned by faculty and students alike, she got a perp-walk-like reception, and I'd bet she resigns from her $400K/year gig within a month.

Fascinating stuff.  Never mind Big Brother's telescreen (hai guyz, I know you're archiving this!), but the UC Davis footage shows that Little Brother is always going to be part of the scene, and he doesn't like what he's recorded.

That doesn't surprise me, given that RT is basically Putin's network.  RT is to Putinistas what Fox News is to Republicans.  But thanks, because now I know where to look for the footage :)

well, i dunno if it's "Putin's" network, but it's definitely got a pronounced liberal-to-libertarian bias, and yeah, at times it almost makes me wince as much as Fox "News." Max Keiser routinely calls for acts of violence to be perpetrated against the bankers, for instance, and though i'd be lying if i didn't admit my lizard brain doesn't find the prospect a bit attractive, my higher-functioning brain, such as it is, knows the public airwaves should not be used for such purposes. When i first heard Keiser do that, the first thing i thought of is Bill O'Reilly using Fox to get Dr. Tiller murdered (and we both know that's a pretty fair assessment of what went on there) or advocating using starvation as a weapon of war when the Taliban were holding Osama bin Laden and Bush was pretending to negotiate with them before going on his inevitable war. (O'Reilly advocated starving the afghan PEOPLE until the unelected government gave up bin Laden, which is actually a war crime. It's illegal to use the public airwaves to encourage genocide, which is what that amounted to. of course, Fox is above the law so...)

anyway, RT has a lot about it that's problematic, yes, but i still think it's got a way to go to be like Fox. it's selective in its reporting but i've never known it to fabricate facts wholesale the way Fox does.

Newt says they should take a bath and go get a job!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/10/vogel.gif

Newt says they should take a bath and go get a job!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/10/vogel.gif


Newt probably had his eye on some coed...and has a job already lined up for her.  ::)

Newt probably had his eye on some coed...and has a job already lined up for her.   ::)


Newtie mentioned public toilets three times in two sentences.  Maybe he's got something else on his mind.
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/08/sabber2.gif

anyway, RT has a lot about it that's problematic, yes, but i still think it's got a way to go to be like Fox. it's selective in its reporting but i've never known it to fabricate facts wholesale the way Fox does.


Hard to tell without knowing what the domestic situation's like in Russia.  And as much as we like to gripe about the surveillance state in America, we're not yet at the point where journalists become unpersons for malreporting domestic events.  


Newtie mentioned public toilets three times in two sentences.  Maybe he's got something else on his mind.
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/08/sabber2.gif


http://i43.tinypic.com/f5awpj.png

Stay on target, Newt.  Stay on target :)

The way that dude sprayed that pepper spray was awesome.

He did it so nonchalantly, like he was watering the plants or something because his wife was making him do it.

The way that dude sprayed that pepper spray was awesome.

He did it so nonchalantly, like he was watering the plants or something because his wife was making him do it.


Exactly my impression.  I'd only call it "awesome" in the old-fashioned sense of the word.  Pike is a sadistic prick.
::)

The way that dude sprayed that pepper spray was awesome.

He did it so nonchalantly, like he was watering the plants or something because his wife was making him do it.


Nonchalantly spraying students with over 5,000,000 scovilles worth of capsaicin is descriptive term.

Oh boy...

Exactly my impression.  I'd only call it "awesome" in the old-fashioned sense of the word.  Pike is a sadistic prick.
::)


Karma

The way that dude sprayed that pepper spray was awesome.

He did it so nonchalantly, like he was watering the plants or something because his wife was making him do it.


Why don't you volunteer for a good dose of that shhh?

Pepper spray is a vegetable!
:D

Why don't you volunteer for a good dose of that shhh?


Actually a guy that I work with has done exactly that.  Of course at the time he was an active service US Marine who was in charge of guarding US Embassies.  He said that "it stings a bit".   ;D

Actually a guy that I work with has done exactly that.  Of course at the time he was an active service US Marine who was in charge of guarding US Embassies.  He said that "it stings a bit".   ;D


The why he's a Marine, and I'm not!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/11/crybaby2.gif

The way that dude sprayed that pepper spray was awesome.

He did it so nonchalantly, like he was watering the plants or something because his wife was making him do it.


That cop totally reminded me of some guy in his backyard on a Saturday afternoon walking along and spraying a hedgerow with Round-Up or something. He was so completely devoid of give-a-crap that he'd might as well have been whistling and twirling his nightstick with his other hand while he was at it.

I mean, it's just so damn appalling that it's almost funny, as if Bill Murray and John Belushi sat down and tried to write a Saturday Night Live sketch about the most dickish cop in the world and that's what they came up with.

The Photoshops have been priceless...

http://skrufff.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/pepper-spray-cop-300x223.jpg

http://www.wired.com/underwire/wp-content/gallery/pepper-spraying-cop/IwoJima.jpg

http://i1039.photobucket.com/albums/a479/scottwooledge/pepper-spray-spognebob.jpg

http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/7/2011/11/medium_f21b283281773eb6f5ebe5842dda31f7.jpg

He did it so nonchalantly, like he was watering the plants or something because his wife was making him do it.


http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lv1bslqdHN1qc4zybo1_500.jpg

Seriously, LyricBoy - when you saw this scene a couple of decades ago, were you also hoping that the guy with orders to clear the obstruction in the square would follow his orders in just as nonchalant manner?  Or were you trying - and failing - to make a reference to the tree of liberty?

I'm all for seeing dumbasses getting what's coming to them - but what was coming to the dumbass hippies at UCDavis was a couple of cops forcing the hippies' wrists together behind their backs, a zip tie, and an arrest.  At no time were those officers at risk.  Lt. Pike's judgement and esclation from "verbal" to "pepper spray in the face" skips several steps on the use-of-force continnuum, and is highly questionable.  (I'd use stronger words, but I respect the laws we have about libel.)

Taking it to the Kittens: The Pepper Spray Cop Meme — and What It Means

I see what Lt. John Pike did there, but unfortunately for the Lieutenant, the entire Internet - from the Nieman Foundation at Harvard to The Atlantic saw what Lt. John Pike did there.

Why, he's even got an advice column: Ask Lt. John Pike :)

Back to serious business:  I'm loath to defend Lt. Pike, but one thing that's become apparent over the past 10 years is that the proliferation of less-than-lethal options has changed policing.  Once upon a time, peace officers were trained to de-escalate conflicts.  Today, they do what they must, because they can.

FOX's reality/entertainment show COPS has been running since before the Taser was invented, and if you watch a few episodes from the pre-Taser era, (somtimes available in the wee hours of the morning on syndicated networks) you'll recognize the change instantly.

http://www.bagnewsnotes.com/files/2011/11/Pepper-Spray-Statue-of-Liberty.jpg

If that's your vision of what America should stand for, go ahead and love it.

http://www.technodisco.net/img/tracks/t/tackhead/130135-tackhead-friendly-as-a-hand-grenade.jpg

Me?  I've seen enough of history to start thinking about leaving it.

You know what they call people who decided to leave a country after it was too late?  

Yeah, me neither.  Because whether it was Czarist Russia, the Third Reich, East Germany, or Maoist China, they're all dead.

I've been staying out of this thread for many reasons... The least of which is I'm not exactly authorized to have an opinion publicly.  But
Finally someone posted a less edited version of the incident... mind you there are still edits but at least you get to see the bigger picture of what happened before "the incident"

It's 15 minutes long.... and I probably won't be coming back to see your comments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hhPdH3wE0_Y

I've been staying out of this thread for many reasons... The least of which is I'm not exactly authorized to have an opinion publicly.  But
Finally someone posted a less edited version of the incident... mind you there are still edits but at least you get to see the bigger picture of what happened before "the incident"

It's 15 minutes long.... and I probably won't be coming back to see your comments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hhPdH3wE0_Y
well, since you're not coming back anyway there's probably not much point in asking this, but just so i don't have to sit through the whole fifteen minutes... can you give me a timecode for the part where we see something that justifies the immersive pepper-spray poisoning of more than a dozen unarmed, sitting protesters by fully armed riot cops? just a minute:second code would be fine.

Okay... I lied. I just meant if there's a lot of bashing I probably won't be commenting.
Fortunately my boss posted this vid on his page so I'm not as limited in commenting as I initially was

Unfortunately, I can't give you a time code because a series of events lead up to the moment.

I can summarize it but if people are going to criticize they should watch the whole thing so they can criticize informatively

Basically (again I'm summarizing)

The students set up camp.
They were told the day before the officers would be coming to break down the camp
The officers arrive.
They warn the protectors several times using a megaphone.
They inform them of the violations they are committing. Both ca penal code and university regs.
The students do not disperse.
The officers make several arrests....and leave with the subjects they arrest.
The protests decide to follow the officers who have the detainees
The protesters surround the officers and tell them the protesters will let the officers go when the officers let the arrested protesters go (essentially they are now detaining the officers and interfering with law enforcement)
They are blocking the officers.
The officers warn the students several times -they go up to individuals and say if you don't move we will be forced to take action.
The students chant rude things. Many yell instructions about protecting your face, eyes nose mouth. Etc. Many students laugh.
The tape makes it look like they werent taking it seriously but since I don't know why then students were laughing I'll just say they were.
Then after several minutes, numerous wanrings...etc they were sprayed.

It wasn't as callalous and casual as it looked. Actually the officers thru the whole thing were quite professional.
Watch the video, don't watch the video, whatever you're entitled to your opinion- I'm entitled to mine
But everytime one of those pics of the  Lt.  are posted here it offends me. I don't work with him but he is part of my organization.
When those pics get callously posted it's like slapping me in the face.

So I will ask again. Watch the entire video. If you still disagree with the action then it's your right to do so but please don't judge a man based on 30 seconds.  Especially when he went out of his way to warn them and give them time to decide their own fate.


 

they may have been laughing because they were scared. if they weren't scared, they should have been. facing down cops when you're unarmed and committed to using nonviolence when the cops have no such similar injunction is extremely frightening. i've done it, or at least tried to.

i dunno, from what you describe i'm still not seeing anything to justify what i saw in the pepper-spraying of the protesters. i'm sorry that you feel offended when this officer is mocked but i have a really hard time seeing him as the victim here, sorry. i don't believe he was among the ones hospitalized.  a lot of people are also very offended by what they see, with fairly good reason, to be unnecessary police brutality. you could "warn" these people as much as you like but absent the threat of violence against the officers, violence should NOT have been used against the protesters. harsh language doesn't count as violence.

well, since you're not coming back anyway there's probably not much point in asking this, but just so i don't have to sit through the whole fifteen minutes... can you give me a timecode for the part where we see something that justifies the immersive pepper-spray poisoning of more than a dozen unarmed, sitting protesters by fully armed riot cops? just a minute:second code would be fine.


Well thoughout the video it is clear that the protesters were blocking the cops and openly proiclaiming that they would only let the cops move if they "set free" the people who were already arrested.

While Officer Pike certainly showed panache in how he doled out the pepper spray, my approach, had I been commander of the officers on the scene, would have been considerably different.

I would have issued the command "Officers, bear your Tasers" and there woulda been so much electricity in the air you woulda thought there was a thunderstorm going on.  It woulda been like Moses parting the Red Sea... the protesters would have gotten the heck out of the way and I could then proceed foward to the local donut shoppe.  :P

they may have been laughing because they were scared. if they weren't scared, they should have been. facing down cops when you're unarmed and committed to using nonviolence when the cops have no such similar injunction is extremely frightening. i've done it, or at least tried to.

i dunno, from what you describe i'm still not seeing anything to justify what i saw in the pepper-spraying of the protesters. i'm sorry that you feel offended when this officer is mocked but i have a really hard time seeing him as the victim here, sorry. i don't believe he was among the ones hospitalized.  a lot of people are also very offended by what they see, with fairly good reason, to be unnecessary police brutality. you could "warn" these people as much as you like but absent the threat of violence against the officers, violence should NOT have been used against the protesters. harsh language doesn't count as violence.




Like I said, I don't know why they were laughing but it didn't sound/seem like nervous laughter.  The video makes it seem like they are not taking the circumstances seriously.  I don't know about that.  Maybe someone told a joke or made a funny comment....that seems much more plausible to me than your scenario or the video's


The problem is the difference in opinion we have about pepper spray. The officers have all experienced pepper sprat, likewise they have experienced tasers.  Since the ucla incident most uc campuses don't allow tasers any more.  I'm not saying the officers should've Tass the protesters I'm just saying that, most likely, wasn't an option.  Pepper spray was the least violent option the officer had.  They didn't draw batons, they didn't fire rubber bullets or bean bag guns. 

Why will you watch a 2 minute clip that skews perception but not a 15 minute clip that highlights he events as they basically unfolded?

Well thoughout the video it is clear that the protesters were blocking the cops and openly proiclaiming that they would only let the cops move if they "set free" the people who were already arrested.

While Officer Pike certainly showed panache in how he doled out the pepper spray, my approach, had I been commander of the officers on the scene, would have been considerably different.

I would have issued the command "Officers, bear your Tasers" and there woulda been so much electricity in the air you woulda thought there was a thunderstorm going on.  It woulda been like Moses parting the Red Sea... the protesters would have gotten the heck out of the way and I could then proceed foward to the local donut shoppe.   :P


This attitude is no better than the people bashing the actions of the officers that day  >:(

This attitude is no better than the people bashing the actions of the officers that day  >:(


Nevertheless, if I ever find myself encircled by a crown of rowdies, I'll do whatever it takes to express my freedom of movement. Taser-Laser-Phaser, whatever it takes to part the waters...

This attitude is no better than the people bashing the actions of the officers that day  >:(
i don't think LB makes his authoritarian streak much of a secret.

the thing with the 15-minute video, snoz, is that it was plainly put together by someone who was opposed to the OWS movement before he/she had ever seen that footage. i say that because of the titles the videomaker added to try and manipulate the viewer. the students "seem" to be not taking the proceedings seriously because they're laughing? says who? the videomaker? how does he/she know someone in the group didn't tell a joke not related to anything going on? how does he/she know they weren't just nervous? i don't know about you, but when i'm nervous, the first thing i do is find a reason to laugh. but the videomaker dislikes OWS so he/she immediately leaped to the least charitable conclusion.

the other thing is that what those students are practicing is "nonviolent resistance." people talk a lot about the "nonviolent" part, but not the "resistance" part. if you want your complaint to be heard, you have to resist. law-abiding movements  that meekly obey police directives get ignored. look what happened to the tea party; they almost instantly became an establishment rebranding of the Republican party, and that's because they were never aggressive except against women in wheelchairs and guys with parkinsons. if the 60s antiwar movement had gotten permits and obeyed police orders, how much you wanna bet we'd still be in vietnam today? if the civil rights movement had done that, it never would have even gotten off the ground. you can pressure OWS to do that, and they might, but here's the catch: if they do, get used to the idea of bailing out the banks again in five years' time or less... or, what i think is more likely since we're out of money to print, get ready for a Great Depression that will make the 30s look like child's play. that's because this country's financial system is totally dysfunctional and both political parties are plainly complicit in keeping it that way. OWS, warts and all, is the only movement pushing back on this public-private kleptocracy in any kind of credible way. they're IT. and if they start playing nicey-nice -- i.e., if they turn themselves into a movement that's easy to ignore -- there's not going to be enough tear gas, pepper spray or tasers in the world to keep peace in the street when that second crash comes. we're gonna look like Greece, or -- if folks like LyricBoy get their way -- maybe more like Syria.

the other thing is that what those students are practicing is "nonviolent resistance." people talk a lot about the "nonviolent" part, but not the "resistance" part. if you want your complaint to be heard, you have to resist. law-abiding movements  that meekly obey police directives get ignored. look what happened to the tea party; they almost instantly became an establishment rebranding of the Republican party, and that's because they were never aggressive except against women in wheelchairs and guys with parkinsons. if the 60s antiwar movement had gotten permits and obeyed police orders, how much you wanna bet we'd still be in vietnam today? if the civil rights movement had done that, it never would have even gotten off the ground. you can pressure OWS to do that, and they might, but here's the catch: if they do, get used to the idea of bailing out the banks again in five years' time or less... or, what i think is more likely since we're out of money to print, get ready for a Great Depression that will make the 30s look like child's play. that's because this country's financial system is totally dysfunctional and both political parties are plainly complicit in keeping it that way. OWS, warts and all, is the only movement pushing back on this public-private kleptocracy in any kind of credible way. they're IT. and if they start playing nicey-nice -- i.e., if they turn themselves into a movement that's easy to ignore -- there's not going to be enough tear gas, pepper spray or tasers in the world to keep peace in the street when that second crash comes. we're gonna look like Greece, or -- if folks like LyricBoy get their way -- maybe more like Syria.


Encircling the local police and threatening to not let them pass is hardly peaceful... or legal...

Encircling the local police and threatening to not let them pass is hardly peaceful... or legal...
see what i said before vis-a-vis "resistance." if OWS sticks to what's legal, they might as well not bother demonstrating at all.

and if these police officers in full riot gear felt threatened by a bunch of unarmed, seated college students, maybe they should consider a different line of work, to be brutally frank. i hear from the right that OWS is composed entirely of smelly, lazy slackers, then in the same breath i'm being told the police lacked the intestinal fortitude to face down these same lazy, unarmed, seated slackers without using violence? why not just step over them?

the students may have "threatened" not to let the police pass, but they were in no position to enforce that threat. however, it does make a good pretext for using force if you were looking to use it anyway.

see what i said before vis-a-vis "resistance." if OWS sticks to what's legal, they might as well not bother demonstrating at all.

and if these police officers in full riot gear felt threatened by a bunch of unarmed, seated college students, maybe they should consider a different line of work, to be brutally frank. i hear from the right that OWS is composed entirely of smelly, lazy slackers, then in the same breath i'm being told the police lacked the intestinal fortitude to face down these same lazy, unarmed, seated slackers without using violence? why not just step over them?

the students may have "threatened" not to let the police pass, but they were in no position to enforce that threat. however, it does make a good pretext for using force if you were looking to use it anyway.


Seems that the OWS does not have much regard for the rule of law.  Seems to be a common theme on the left these days.  Come to think of it, seems to have been a common theme from the left throughout history.

Seems that the OWS does not have much regard for the rule of law.  Seems to be a common theme on the left these days.  Come to think of it, seems to have been a common theme from the left throughout history.


in a manner of speaking, i suppose so.

An individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for the law.
Martin Luther King, Jr.



in any case, the right has the luxury of rewriting the laws to suit their convenience and legalize their theft. look at Citizens United or Bush v. Gore. The left, not so much.

i don't think LB makes his authoritarian streak much of a secret.

the thing with the 15-minute video, snoz, is that it was plainly put together by someone who was opposed to the OWS movement before he/she had ever seen that footage. i say that because of the titles the videomaker added to try and manipulate the viewer. the students "seem" to be not taking the proceedings seriously because they're laughing? says who? the videomaker? how does he/she know someone in the group didn't tell a joke not related to anything going on? how does he/she know they weren't just nervous? i don't know about you, but when i'm nervous, the first thing i do is find a reason to laugh. but the videomaker dislikes OWS so he/she immediately leaped to the least charitable conclusion.

the other thing is that what those students are practicing is "nonviolent resistance." people talk a lot about the "nonviolent" part, but not the "resistance" part. if you want your complaint to be heard, you have to resist. law-abiding movements  that meekly obey police directives get ignored. look what happened to the tea party; they almost instantly became an establishment rebranding of the Republican party, and that's because they were never aggressive except against women in wheelchairs and guys with parkinsons. if the 60s antiwar movement had gotten permits and obeyed police orders, how much you wanna bet we'd still be in vietnam today? if the civil rights movement had done that, it never would have even gotten off the ground. you can pressure OWS to do that, and they might, but here's the catch: if they do, get used to the idea of bailing out the banks again in five years' time or less... or, what i think is more likely since we're out of money to print, get ready for a Great Depression that will make the 30s look like child's play. that's because this country's financial system is totally dysfunctional and both political parties are plainly complicit in keeping it that way. OWS, warts and all, is the only movement pushing back on this public-private kleptocracy in any kind of credible way. they're IT. and if they start playing nicey-nice -- i.e., if they turn themselves into a movement that's easy to ignore -- there's not going to be enough tear gas, pepper spray or tasers in the world to keep peace in the street when that second crash comes. we're gonna look like Greece, or -- if folks like LyricBoy get their way -- maybe more like Syria.



I think,if you read my posts again I say I don't think the video makers called it right when discus ing the laughing.
I've said a couple times I don't  know why they were laughing.   I honestly don't care. The laughing has little to do with the video, the issues or the incident.  

Had the protestors not followed the officers

Had the protestors not surrounded the officers
Had the protestors not demanded the releas of those arrested  while surrounding he officers
The protesters would not have been peppered sprayed.

Despite the text in the video you can clearly see the officers give several warnings
You can clearly hear what the protesters are saying
And you can hear that the protestors are fully aware the pepper spray is coming.

They made their choices.  They live with consequences.

Just do what you're told and shut up and you won't get hurt.

Okay...that's a good way to secure the status quo.  
::)

They made their choices.  They live with consequences.

well, that appears to be the thrust of the MLK quote i mentioned above as well. you break the law, you can expect to get arrested and the students seem to be quite aware of that, as you basically point out. on the other hand, if you don't employ violence, i don't think you should have to expect to be met with violence. i haven't seen any hint of violence among the demonstrators, but they were met with violence anyway. arresting them, i get. pepper-spraying them is a bit of a tougher case to make IMO.

anyhow, i'm not sure the consequences have accrued to the protesters so much as to the police, since every time they do something like this they experience a ton of bad publicity. the thing i'd be worried about if i had a vested interest in the police being perceived positively is if they manage to get one of these demonstrators killed. they got pretty close with the iraq vet whose skull they cracked, and since then they've hospitalized two more veterans. if they kill someone the PR fiasco over this pepper-spraying is going to seem pretty tame by comparison.

What I say about the status quo...

The cops are there to defend the status quo.  When the status quo is intolerable, it's time to defy the cops. 

If the objectors wish to see this thing even remotely through, they will have to face far more than pepper spray.  I think we are waking up to the fact that we do not live in a democracy and America is not a free country.

we do not live in a democracy and America is not a free country.
pretty much.

Unfortunately, I can't give you a time code because a series of events lead up to the moment.


Thanks for posting and summarizing.  All timestamps in this post are relative to this video.


the thing with the 15-minute video, snoz, is that it was plainly put together by someone who was opposed to the OWS movement before he/she had ever seen that footage.


With respect, that doesn't matter.  You can sync up the bits of audio/video with the bits of video from pro-OWS protestors to determine whether it's a fraud.  (It's not a fraud.)  Do that with enough cameras, and you end up with a God's-eye-view of things.  Cop might not have heard everything.  Protestor might not have heard everything.  You might even hear things that maybe neither side heard.

I'd strongly encourage everyone to watch the entire 15 minutes.  (Doubly so if you watched the 15-minute video taken from the protestors' side).


I can summarize it but if people are going to criticize they should watch the whole thing so they can criticize informatively 


I'll take my shot at it.  Everyone who hasn't watched the whole thing, stop reading this post, watch the video, take your own notes, and then compare them with mine.  What did I miss?  What did Tia miss?  What did Snozzberries miss?

*spoilers below*

If the protestors had done what they'd said they'd do at  4:40 - march to wherever the prisoners were being held - things might have been different.  (The lawfully-arrested protestors at 6:13 weren't easily visible in most of the other footage, some of which I linked upthread, and explains why the cops were in that formation.  The mic check at 7:00ish gives people a reference to the timestamp in the videos that I linked, so readers don't have to be overly suspicious of the edit at 7:28.)

Of particular interest is the segment with audio at 7:45-7:50ish.  When I posted the earlier video, I'd wondered where the "You're gonna shoot me?" comment came from.  It appears that a few minutes before that comment, Lt. Pike uttered what sounded a bit like "the pepper ball rounds will be deployed" - referring to the paintball guns loaded with OC (that were not used).

One of the videos I linked in starts around 8:57 in this video - although I note that the protestors themselves shut down "From Davis to Greece" chant.

The key bit at 10:40 "You're gonna shoot me?" (which confused me, because nobody got shot) probably has Lt. Pike repeating the things he said at 7:45-7:50.  Protestor thinking that "pepper ball rounds" mean "getting shot", and Pike thinking that "No, I'm gonna hit you with pepper spray, from a can, maybe from a paintball gun, but I'm not gonna draw my firearm and blow your farkin' head off".  Protestors listening to parts of it heard the wrong words, interpreted them the wrong way, and at 10:55 - and especially 11:00 - the die was cast.  (You can sync that moment up with the video in my earlier post. The audio is the same, but you can make out different sets of words, because it's being recorded by yet another camera.)

Thanks for having the guts to post this - especially since it appears that you work in an environment in which expressing opinions can get you fired.  (Warning: That New York Times article may or may not be NSFW depending on where you work.)

<content=personal-opinion>
I dispute that Lt. Pike nor any of the cops in question were in danger from that crowd.  If Lt. Pike could casually step over the ring of protestors in order to spray them, every cop in that formation could have done so, and they could have taken every one of the arrested protestors (inside the surrounded formation of cops).  (I will accept that the cops might not have felt as safe as they might have wanted to feel.  Being surrounded isn't fun.  Being told to free people under arrest - although at no point did the crowd threaten consequences if the protestors weren't freed - isn't part of the job description, and certainly falls outside the training given to LEOs that stresses the need to maintain control of the situation.  The point at which "officer safety" overrides the safety of those they're supposedly protecting and serving is something that should be resolved in the courts.)
</content>

The guy who invented pepper spray did so for a good reason.  You might want to read (and you might not want to discuss among co-workers that you have read) his opinions on the subject:


I have never seen such an inappropriate and improper use of chemical agents,


Warning: That New York Times article may also be NSFW depending on where you work. :)

It's ironic.  10-15 years ago, the whole point was to provide officers with an option other than deadly force.  Today, the widespread availability of less-than-lethal options has led to an increase in use of force (references: 1 and 2 dug up from that Wired article) on civilians.

The only way in which "your side" (I hate that term) is going to get its message out is by doing the same things that the "other side" does: standing up for itself without buzzwords, doublethink, etc.  If both "sides" do it often enough, and with enough integrity, they may realize that as long as there are "sides", both "sides" have work to do.  When Americans use force against Americans, there aren't supposed to be sides.  That way lies madness.

tl;dr: I think the world would be a better place if every citizen realized that although the police happen to have ranks named after military ranks, they're as civilian as people who don't wear uniforms.  The psychological division between "LEO" and "civilian" is damaging to both groups of citizens.  As long as "police" and "civilians" think of each other two distinct groups bad things will continue to happen.


So I will ask again. Watch the entire video. If you still disagree with the action then it's your right to do so but please don't judge a man based on 30 seconds.  Especially when he went out of his way to warn them and give them time to decide their own fate.


Thanks again for providing context to the UC Davis incident.  Information's a good thing.  Everyone who has commented on the incident should watch all the video they can of it.  There's important and vital context here.  Understanding is a three-edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth.

Thanks Foo I owe you more karma.

Gotta say I've held my tongue for a couple weeks because I knew I couldn't comment. Once my boss posted the video on fb I figured had a little more freedom.  ;D

I've chosen my words carefully tho. You notice I never made any comments about the protests or the protesters.

I appreciate your ability to see both sides of the issue I agree with you watch as many videos as you can. I've watch dozens of them myself.

I've chosen my words carefully tho.


A wise move for everyone involved these days.  You remained apolitical - which is doing it right.  The catch-22 is that it's difficult (and sometimes - although not in the case - impossible) to remain impartial when making commentary.

There are damn good reasons why some people are held to a more stringent standard than others when it comes to political commentary.  As much as I loathe the use of fig leaf of "unsanitary conditions" being used as an excuse to wipe the camps clean, at least it is a law. Government by definition has a monopoly on force; the last thing this country needs is to see that monopoly overtly politicized.

<content=political>
I believe that the best way to defeat an entrenched bureaucracy is to obey its every edict to the letter.  To respond to a lawful order to disperse with "Oh, I'm sorry Officer.  I'll see you one foot away from the curb of Foo Street and Bar Avenue, which is the closest geographical point not covered by your order," to an unlawful order with "...and my lawyer will call your lawyer tomorrow, so that we can settle our differences like civilized men - using words in a court of law, instead of fisticuffs on the streets," and in either case, to let the bureaucracy crumble under its own weight.
</content>

And the best place to watch a riot is on YouTube.

Mama! Mama!
Someone said they made some noise
The cops have shot some girls & boys
You'll sit home & drink all night
They looked too weird . . . it served them right!

-- Frank Zappa, 1967

I watched the video and I'm of two minds.

I say whoever assembled it and wrote the captions had a fascist bias.  Even so, my gut tells me a few things I didn't want to believe before:

I do think the youths provoked the police officers into an obtuse display of power.  I speculate the cops were feeling frustrated and emasculated by the time the pepper spray came out.  The crowd did seem to think it was fun and games until the chemical assault.  I too found the chanting annoying.

However, any person who will let himself see shades of gray is going to have mixed feelings.  Politically, I am steadfast on the side of the protesters even if the protesters themselves seem more like rowdy college kids than the proletarian army of my ideals.  What did I suppose an inchoate rebellion would look like?  It was more like a foal struggling to its feet than a charging bull elephant.  If they keep organizing and practicing, they will get better at it.  #OWS needs to accept violence will be visited upon them and be willing to face live ammunition if necessary.  Gandhi took on the British Empire with non-violence and, to the poor of India, the British were even more terrifying than the America's "one percent" is to us now.  

The protesters' behavior was flawed, but in their favor, they did not peg rocks and bottles at the cops.  They did not threaten physical violence.  I do not agree with the video comment that standing their ground constituted a threat to the police.  On the other hand, America is a violent society and it does not take much for police officers to feel threatened.  

#OWS needs to stand their ground with non-violence and accept a beating when it comes.  Constant martyrdom will undermine the movement's cohesion.  The change they are seeking if they are too achieve it at all will only come after a grueling struggle spanning several years.  In spite of Youtube and ubiquitous cameras, Gil Scott Heron is still right, "The revolution will not be television."  That is, the folks at home will not be watching with baited breath as your rebellion draws its plans and secures its provisions.  The communitarian strength of a healthy resistance movement will be the muscle of the revolution, not a theatrical clash in the park with the cops.  It will not be up to the cops how the protesters handle egotism and defection within its own ranks, only the protesters can determine the cohesion and stamina of their own movement.

One caveat, #0WS stands no chance of meaningful success until the cops and the National Guard become convinced it is not worth it to them to carry out the orders of their superiors.  #0WS needs to win the cops over to their side, and they have not demonstrated the intellectual prowess and cunning it will take to achieve such a feat.

Keep fighting the good fight,don't get sucked into violence, and no matter how exhausting it gets, don't give up!

8)

this thread needs this video...

http://www.godvine.com/Police-Officer-Stops-Traffic-to-Help-Trapped-Ducks-802.html

this thread needs this video...


For the win.

I'm not (yet) afraid to call foul when I see a dick move.  But although my sample size of three encounters is too small for statistical significance, I'm also happy to give credit where credit's due.

So for the record: in the very few interactions I've personally had with law enforcement, the cops have been nothing but helpful and professional.  

It was in pre-9/11 America, but where I was innocent ("Huh?  You're looking for who?!"), they were even more surprised to see me as I was to see them.  (A warrant for a previous occupant was several months old, but was served in the era before the no-knock warrant became standard procedure.  Although they were equipped for it, they deliberately chose a time when it was likely that I'd hear the knock, and therefore unlikely they'd have to make a tactical entry.  They did it as well as they could have done it with the information available to them.  To their serious credit, when I opened the door, they didn't even ask for confirmation, nor did they ask to accompany me to my filing cabinet when I offered to show them the papers that proved I was the sole occupant.  "No, you don't need to do that, we believe you..."  It really was a case of their warrant being too stale for its own good, and they were even more interested in respecting my rights under the Fourth than I - in my freaked-out state - was.)

Where I was neutral ("We need a statement about what you saw"), they were interested first in keeping everyone off the highway shoulder before any of us (cop or civilian) got killed by rubberneckers.

When I was guilty as sin ("You know why I pulled you over, Sir?"), I figured out that if I could no longer identify and react to an cop in the oncoming lane outside of the range of his radar, I could no longer outbrake/outmanoeuver an oncoming sleepy/drunk driver.  I was happy to pay the fine that came with my first and only speeding ticket, because it finally impressed upon me that I really am getting older and slower, and a ticket's a hell of a lot cheaper than the alternative.

Back to #PepperSprayAllTheThings, Lt. Pike got the customary few weeks' paid vacation in exchange for being recognized worldwide as an emblem of thuggery.  If he's OK with that trade (and he probably is), then so am I.  He provided the Internets with a lot more lulz than most cops who get paid vacations, I'm willing to forgive.  Not to forget, not to refrain from snarking if the opportunity presents itself, but I'm willing to call it a draw :)

The protesters' behavior was flawed, but in their favor, they did not peg rocks and bottles at the cops.  They did not threaten physical violence.  I do not agree with the video comment that standing their ground constituted a threat to the police.  On the other hand, America is a violent society and it does not take much for police officers to feel threatened. 
This.

Though most depressing is the lack of brains shown by the police: they obviously didn't think it through at all.


Seems that the OWS does not have much regard for the rule of law.  Seems to be a common theme on the left these days.  Come to think of it, seems to have been a common theme from the left throughout history.

ISTM you're guilty of classic "us-and-them" logic in this: when people who are on the right wing break the law, that's just people; when people from a group you disagree with break the law, it's because they're of that group.

So you see "the left" as commonly breaking the law, which is plain rubbish - there are people across the political spectrum who break laws, sometimes politically-motivated sometimes not.  If you can produce clear peer-reviewed evidence to show that "the left" does this more than any other group, please quote it; otherwise, as one might ask a shepherd with a noisy bunch of sheep, just shut the flock up.

This.

Though most depressing is the lack of brains shown by the police: they obviously didn't think it through at all.
ISTM you're guilty of classic "us-and-them" logic in this: when people who are on the right wing break the law, that's just people; when people from a group you disagree with break the law, it's because they're of that group.

So you see "the left" as commonly breaking the law, which is plain rubbish - there are people across the political spectrum who break laws, sometimes politically-motivated sometimes not.  If you can produce clear peer-reviewed evidence to show that "the left" does this more than any other group, please quote it; otherwise, as one might ask a shepherd with a noisy bunch of sheep, just shut the flock up.




Karma

This.

Though most depressing is the lack of brains shown by the police: they obviously didn't think it through at all.
ISTM you're guilty of classic "us-and-them" logic in this: when people who are on the right wing break the law, that's just people; when people from a group you disagree with break the law, it's because they're of that group.

So you see "the left" as commonly breaking the law, which is plain rubbish - there are people across the political spectrum who break laws, sometimes politically-motivated sometimes not.  If you can produce clear peer-reviewed evidence to show that "the left" does this more than any other group, please quote it; otherwise, as one might ask a shepherd with a noisy bunch of sheep, just shut the flock up.




The corporations are right-wing.  They control all the money.  Money in the U.S. controls the legislatures.  It does not matter much of an individual legislator is Democrat or Republican.  He still had to take corporate money to get elected and re-elected.  Ergo, the Right is going to favor the laws a corporate-bought Congress makes.  The Left is going to oppose them.  So, which side is more likely to break the law -- those who favor the law, or those who oppose it?

When the banks and the corporations don't like the law, they send an army of lobbyists to bribe the politicians with zillions of dollars.  Joe Schmoe has one vote every couple of years.

The corporations are right-wing.  They control all the money.  Money in the U.S. controls the legislatures.  It does not matter much of an individual legislator is Democrat or Republican.  He still had to take corporate money to get elected and re-elected.  Ergo, the Right is going to favor the laws a corporate-bought Congress makes.  The Left is going to oppose them.  So, which side is more likely to break the law -- those who favor the law, or those who oppose it?

When the banks and the corporations don't like the law, they send an army of lobbyists to bribe the politicians with zillions of dollars.  Joe Schmoe has one vote every couple of years.

You make it sound like banks, corporations and other right-wingers don't break laws, they get them changed.

..I beg to differ.  Those with that kind of power very frequently behave as though the law simply doesn't apply to them.

ISTM you're guilty of classic "us-and-them" logic in this: when people who are on the right wing break the law, that's just people; when people from a group you disagree with break the law, it's because they're of that group.


In other words, it's an ultimate attribution error, which is just a variation of the fundamental attribution error.  It's inherent in human psychology regardless of one's political inclination, but individualists are somewhat more likely to make these types of errors than collectivists.

Disclaimer:  I'm an individualist and I do it all. the. time.  The 99% are getting their homes foreclosed on because they bought into a real estate bubble.  Suckers!  But I lost money in 2008 because the market blew up.  (Not because I was a moron for betting on inflation instead of deflation, oh, hell, no!  It wasn't my fault I didn't realize that all of your mortgages blowing up were going to blow up the very banks that loaned the money that fueled the companies in which I was invested, no sirree!  The market blew up.  Not my fault!)

But even my correction - pointing out that I really was a moron for placing a bad bet - is another instance of a fundamental attribution error.  In taking blame for my crappy trading, I'm still attributing failure (in this case, my own) to a dispositional cause.  If I screwed up and lost coin, the world is still just, in that I could have played it differently and profited.  As long as that's the case, I can still blithely refuse to acknowledge that complex systems with multiple feedback loops exhibit chaotic - unchangeable and uncontrollable - behavior.  Individual failures are always the result of poor decisions, not poorly-designed systems, and therefore all I have to do to join the 1% is figure out how the system works and make the correct call.  (Say, this weekend, when all the Europoliticians already know the outcome.  Somehow I'm supposed to figure out what they're going to do - and before everybody else with more brains, money, and political connections figures it out.  Nope, no delusional thinking there!)

But enough about my personal life.

Isn't one of the complaints from the right that the #OWS crowd should be trying to talk to their legislators instead of business leaders?

If Voice of America ain't American enough for certain people's tastes, they're just gonna have to live with it.

In other words, it's an ultimate attribution error, which is just a variation of the fundamental attribution error.  It's inherent in human psychology regardless of one's political inclination, but individualists are somewhat more likely to make these types of errors than collectivists.

Disclaimer:  I'm an individualist and I do it all. the. time.  The 99% are getting their homes foreclosed on because they bought into a real estate bubble.  Suckers!  But I lost money in 2008 because the market blew up.  (Not because I was a moron for betting on inflation instead of deflation, oh, hell, no!  It wasn't my fault I didn't realize that all of your mortgages blowing up were going to blow up the very banks that loaned the money that fueled the companies in which I was invested, no sirree!  The market blew up.  Not my fault!)

But even my correction - pointing out that I really was a moron for placing a bad bet - is another instance of a fundamental attribution error.  In taking blame for my crappy trading, I'm still attributing failure (in this case, my own) to a dispositional cause.  If I screwed up and lost coin, the world is still just, in that I could have played it differently and profited.  As long as that's the case, I can still blithely refuse to acknowledge that complex systems with multiple feedback loops exhibit chaotic - unchangeable and uncontrollable - behavior.  Individual failures are always the result of poor decisions, not poorly-designed systems, and therefore all I have to do to join the 1% is figure out how the system works and make the correct call.  (Say, this weekend, when all the Europoliticians already know the outcome.  Somehow I'm supposed to figure out what they're going to do - and before everybody else with more brains, money, and political connections figures it out.  Nope, no delusional thinking there!)

But enough about my personal life.

Isn't one of the complaints from the right that the #OWS crowd should be trying to talk to their legislators instead of business leaders?

If Voice of America ain't American enough for certain people's tastes, they're just gonna have to live with it.


I can spot you individualists a mile away.  You're all alike!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/08/rolleyes.gif

I can spot you individualists a mile away.  You're all alike!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/08/rolleyes.gif

Isn't this a compulsory link at this juncture?

Isn't this a compulsory link at this juncture?


Karma!  I think of that every time the #OWS uses the so-called crowd microphone!
;D

Isn't this a compulsory link at this juncture?


It sure is.  

But apart from waste management and biotech and the Khan Academy and the Green Revolution and the health insurance racket and toll roads and a freshwater system and Proctor and Gamble and the military-industrial complex and the Dead Parrot Sketch, what have the 1% done for us?  

(List is deliberately ambiguous: the problem with being a fanatical warrior for the 1% or the 99% is that neither side is willing to take the good with the bad.  Why not look on the bright side of life?)

t3FxfrDfmXc

On second thought, let's not #OCCUPYCANTERLOT.  It is a silly place.

If you click on nothing else in this shameless paean to KMFDM's awesomeness, thrash up and grab the 320kbps MP3 from the artist's own website: A Drug Against Wall Street (MP3 download).  If you want to go deep down the rabbit hole, read on.

KMFDM hasn't slept since 1993's A Drug Against War.  Two and a half decades of conceptual continuity later, we've got this:

Z98WP_ejQLQ

Occupy Wall Street, the world's on fire,
Smoke 'em out and hang 'em higher.
Anonymous here, Anonymous there,
We are the people, we're everywhere,

CHORUS:
March to the drum of the ultra-heavy beat!
KMFDM is A Drug Against Wall Street!

Search and destroy the thieves and liars,
Take no prisoners, make no mistake,
Our childrens' future is at stake.

Twenty-first century Robin Hood,
Destroy what destroys us, once and for good!

As usual, this post is not an endorsement of any particular movement, merely a nod to awesomeness (and my encyclopedic knowledge of KMFDM's discography) when I see (or get a rare chance to brag about) it.  Bonus: No ponies... yet.

It's not a rabbit hole one goes down with KMFDM!
:-\\

It's not a rabbit hole one goes down with KMFDM!
:-\\


There's a joke in there about a Pig track that comes to mind, but you gotta admit that when it comes to rocking out with self-referential satire while still making a point, there's nobody better.

There's a joke in there about a Pig track that comes to mind, but you gotta admit that when it comes to rocking out with self-referential satire while still making a point, there's nobody better.


I used to have this one from Wax Trax:

http://cherryberry321.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/wax_045_pig.jpg?w=400

Back cover photo:

http://foolmoon.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/download/Number/6580/filename/CP/RAINE.jpg

I do believe that's Sheriff Lawrence Rainey with the to-baccy. 

I used to have this one from Wax Trax:


That's better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick, which is as far back as I was able to get during my vinyl phase.  (My fave was seeing Kickin' Ass made to squeal like a pig, not once, but twice, on the side project album...)


I do believe that's Sheriff Lawrence Rainey with the to-baccy.  


I do believe you're right.

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/price&bowers/RAINBIO.jpg

And now for something completely different, the DoJ makes some incremental progress in an investigation that has nothing whatsoever to do with the two general topics covered in this post.