NEW YORK | Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:05pm EDT

(Reuters) - Protesters who have camped out near Wall Street for two weeks gathered on Friday to march to police headquarters over what they viewed as excessive force and unfair treatment of minorities and Muslims.

There is a lot of buzz about this story around Facebook.  The protests are now in their 14th day. 

Several of my friends on Facebook have posted statements of outrage over the police brutality against protesters this week.  Yes, the violence is deplorable, but it indicates the protesters are on the right track.  Remember the attack dogs and fire hoses of the Civil Rights movement. 

My biggest concern is the protesters will not have the stamina or the attention span to keep the movement going.  Now that they've provoked the ire of the authorities, they need to step it up, not back down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zV9uZ00bqD8

"Minorities and muslims"?

Does this mean that muslims are not in the minority? ???

Something about that old poster with pyramid and different sorts of differently-dressed folks sitting around different tables with different amounts of food and different little captions.  But made with a camera instead of a pen.

http://i.imgur.com/FvzMyh.jpg

Life imitates art.

If the hippies get everything they want, the world burns.  But judging from the 15% losses in the markets this quarter as buffoons in Washington and Europe alike flail wildly at each other in attempts to gain political advantage regardless of how much damage they're doing to efforts to keep things afloat, even if the hippies lose, it looks like the world burns anyway.  My position on the issue is long popcorn futures.  I'm grateful for my years on the balcony, but even I've given up hope that I'll get to stay there.  So let the world burn.

"End Corporate Personhood"...  I guess that is a reference to the Citizens United Decision by the SCOTUS.

To be against "Corporate personhood" is to be directly against the concept of free association and even unionism and freedom of the press.  The concept of the corporation is that multiple persons may form an association (usually for economic reasons but sometimes for political or religious) to pursue their goals under the law.

Putting an end to "Corporate Personhood"... which is usually invoked when criticizing corporate political contributions... ultimately leads to the suppression of individual, like-minded persons from forming a group and funding it to jointly express their opinions via the various communications media. "Company" and Union alike.

I am glad to see people are FINALLY starting to fight back instead of being steamrolled over and asking for more. People are fed up. And at this point, many people don't have anything left to lose. 2011 may well be the beginning of a second revolution. You see people fighting back in Wisconsin, Ohio, Michigan, and now in New York. The thing is about the protests in New York, it really goes after the heart of all of this-the fat cats. Wall Street has essentially bought our Democracy-thanks to the Roberts' Court & Citizens United. This movement is growing and there are protests now in Boston, San Francisco and Los Angeles. I wouldn't be a bit surprise if more protests do not break out in other cities and parts of the country. At this rate, the citizens WILL be united!




Cat 

I am glad to see people are FINALLY starting to fight back instead of being steamrolled over and asking for more. People are fed up. And at this point, many people don't have anything left to lose. 2011 may well be the beginning of a second revolution. You see people fighting back in Wisconsin, Ohio, Michigan, and now in New York. The thing is about the protests in New York, it really goes after the heart of all of this-the fat cats. Wall Street has essentially bought our Democracy-thanks to the Roberts' Court & Citizens United. This movement is growing and there are protests now in Boston, San Francisco and Los Angeles. I wouldn't be a bit surprise if more protests do not break out in other cities and parts of the country. At this rate, the citizens WILL be united!

Cat 


It's kinda hard to complain about Citizen's United and 'fat cats' when the SEIU spend $85MM ($25MM of it borrowed) in 2008... two years BEFORE Citizens United.  The AFL-CIO likewise spent $53MM on the 2008 presidential election alone.  Teamsters spent $13MM and the UAW ponied up $11MM.

Ban campaign contributions from ALL corporations (companies and unions alike) and I'll sign up. But the US Constitution appears to have a problem with that.

"End Corporate Personhood"...  I guess that is a reference to the Citizens United Decision by the SCOTUS.


Nope.

Corporate Personhood is the notion that a corporation can be sued without its directors or officers being legally liable.  If Foocorp (its charter includes yours truly, Foo Bar, as President, CEO, and Secretary) screws you over hard enough, the worst thing you can do is sue Foocorp.  But Foo, as the mere President, CEO, and corporate Secretary, still keeps his gold-plated yacht, because he earned that while working for Foocorp.  You can tak everything Foocorp owns, but you can't touch me :)

I support corporate personhood.  Anyone reading this who owns a share in a mutual fund probably should, too.  If someone successfully sued Tobaccorp ($SMOK) for a trillion dollars because they sold products they knew they sold cancer, the unitholders of the mutual fund that holds a few shares of Tobaccorp ($SMOK) would be personally liable for their share of the trillion dollar judgement.  Without corporate personhood, everyone would probably be writing two or three checks for a buck or two, every month.  Just how many lawsuits per day do you feel like fending off?

And nobody would ever start a small business.  If my mechanic's entry-level brake technician screws up and my car goes off the road into a school bus full of orphans and nuns, my estate (and the orphanage) should be able to sue his business.  But not my mechanic, nor the brake technician that screws up.  If it were the other way around, nobody would become a mechanic.  (You know, sorta how it is with your doctor, who spends most of what he charges you on malpractice insurance... but that's another thread.)

Anyways, back to the protests: (Warning: Naughty Language on an handwritten sign.)

On that point, I think everybody who's ever attempted to trade for a living can find common ground with the protestors. 

Nope.

Corporate Personhood is the notion that a corporation can be sued without its directors or officers being legally liable.  If Foocorp (its charter includes yours truly, Foo Bar, as President, CEO, and Secretary) screws you over hard enough, the worst thing you can do is sue Foocorp.  But Foo, as the mere President, CEO, and corporate Secretary, still keeps his gold-plated yacht, because he earned that while working for Foocorp.  You can tak everything Foocorp owns, but you can't touch me :)

I support corporate personhood.  Anyone reading this who owns a share in a mutual fund probably should, too.  If someone successfully sued Tobaccorp ($SMOK) for a trillion dollars because they sold products they knew they sold cancer, the unitholders of the mutual fund that holds a few shares of Tobaccorp ($SMOK) would be personally liable for their share of the trillion dollar judgement.  Without corporate personhood, everyone would probably be writing two or three checks for a buck or two, every month.  Just how many lawsuits per day do you feel like fending off?

And nobody would ever start a small business.  If my mechanic's entry-level brake technician screws up and my car goes off the road into a school bus full of orphans and nuns, my estate (and the orphanage) should be able to sue his business.  But not my mechanic, nor the brake technician that screws up.  If it were the other way around, nobody would become a mechanic.  (You know, sorta how it is with your doctor, who spends most of what he charges you on malpractice insurance... but that's another thread.)

Anyways, back to the protests: (Warning: Naughty Language on an handwritten sign.)

On that point, I think everybody who's ever attempted to trade for a living can find common ground with the protestors. 


That's the most intelligent protest sign I've seen all week!  The kid's god it right on!

Corporations are not people.  Corporations are signatures on pieces of paper.  I'm not against people incorporating a project to limit liability but I'm not in favor of interminable fiefdoms of unaccountable wealth and power.  That's bullsh*t.  That's how we get neo-royalists like the Koch Brothers.  Mitt Romney is a nincompoop.  Hate to think he's gonna be our next president.
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/14/sad3.gif

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/10/01/national/main20114373.shtml


October 1, 2011 6:24 PM

700 arrested after protest on Brooklyn Bridge

A large group of protesters affiliated with the Occupy Wall Street movement march across the Brooklyn Bridge, effectively shutting parts of it down, Oct. 1, 2011 in New York. Police arrested dozens while trying to clear the road and reopen for traffic. (AP Photo/Will Stevens)
(CBS/AP)

NEW YORK -New York City police say about 700 protesters have been arrested after they swarmed the Brooklyn Bridge and shut down a lane of traffic for several hours.

Police say some demonstrators spilled onto the roadway Saturday night after being told to stay on the pedestrian pathway. They face disorderly conduct and other charges. The lane has since reopened.

Occupy Wall Street demonstrators are railing against corporate greed, global warming and social inequality, among other grievances.

The group has been camped near the Financial District for two weeks and clashed with police on earlier occasions.

Earlier on Saturday, two other marches went over the bridge without problems. One was from Brooklyn to Manhattan by a group opposed to genetically modified food. Another in the opposite direction marched against poverty.

"Corporations are not people," said Max Richmond in New York City. "They don't deserve the same rights people do."

Moira Laughlin, who traveled to New York from Ohio to participate, is frustrated because she's been out of work for two-and-a-half years. "We have two teenage kids, we still have to pay the mortgage. send them to college hopefully, and it's not easy."

Hundreds of people started camping and holding marches near New York's financial district. There have also been cries of police brutality, after video circulated online showing a high-ranking police official using pepper spray on several woman penned in by plastic mesh. The police said they were investigating.

Nope.

Corporate Personhood is the notion that a corporation can be sued without its directors or officers being legally liable.  If Foocorp (its charter includes yours truly, Foo Bar, as President, CEO, and Secretary) screws you over hard enough, the worst thing you can do is sue Foocorp.  But Foo, as the mere President, CEO, and corporate Secretary, still keeps his gold-plated yacht, because he earned that while working for Foocorp.  You can tak everything Foocorp owns, but you can't touch me :)

Incorrect.  Here are just a few jailbirds who were corporate officers that ended up in the slammer for their misdeeds, PLUS were sued for civil damages.  A couple may not sound familiar to you but I threw them in because I had firsthand knowledge of their situations (one of them, should I ever meet up with him in a Midwest town, shall receive a kick square in his 'nads, too. ):


Bernie Madoff (Needs no introduction)
Mark D. Lay (Investment dude who scammed the Ohio Pension Fund)
Dennis Kozlowski (Jailed for criminal fraud at Tyco and likewise civilly sued)
Kenneth Lay (Enron dude, died in the slammer and they also sued both him and his estate)
Jim Squires (Steel executive, thrown in jail by the Feds for skimming money, and sued for restitution)


Additionally, the Sarbanes-Oxley act specifies INDIVIDUAL civil and criminal liability for corporate officers who are found to have cooked the books.  See info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarbanes%E2%80%93Oxley_Act#Sarbanes.E2.80.93Oxley_Section_802:_Criminal_penalties_for_violation_of_SOX

Incorrect.  Here are just a few jailbirds who were corporate officers that ended up in the slammer for their misdeeds, PLUS were sued for civil damages.  A couple may not sound familiar to you but I threw them in because I had firsthand knowledge of their situations (one of them, should I ever meet up with him in a Midwest town, shall receive a kick square in his 'nads, too. ):


Bernie Madoff (Needs no introduction)
Mark D. Lay (Investment dude who scammed the Ohio Pension Fund)
Dennis Kozlowski (Jailed for criminal fraud at Tyco and likewise civilly sued)
Kenneth Lay (Enron dude, died in the slammer and they also sued both him and his estate)
Jim Squires (Steel executive, thrown in jail by the Feds for skimming money, and sued for restitution)


Additionally, the Sarbanes-Oxley act specifies INDIVIDUAL civil and criminal liability for corporate officers who are found to have cooked the books.  See info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarbanes%E2%80%93Oxley_Act#Sarbanes.E2.80.93Oxley_Section_802:_Criminal_penalties_for_violation_of_SOX


Notably absent are Firestone tire exec, FE who committed no criminal act even though their company caused some deaths.  The cases you list were for personal criminality, not corprate malfeasance

Notably absent are Firestone tire exec, FE who committed no criminal act even though their company caused some deaths.  The cases you list were for personal criminality, not corprate malfeasance


Well so there is the rub.  If a person commits a crime that is subject to criminal laws then he's charged and tried. Does not matter if it was done in the name of a corporation or not.

If a corporation commits a crime there is SOMEBODY at the firm who authorized said crime and can thus be charged.  Even in the case of a civil tort, the individual can be sued if it is determined that his actions were intentional or egregiously negligent.  That is why corporations routinely enter into agreements with their officers to indemnify them from lawsuits... because corporate officers and employees can, indeed, be individually sued.

In the case of Mark D. Lay, the SEC pursued both he and his firm for securities fraud.

Y'all are confusing "executive responsibility" with "stockholder responsibility".  If I am a strockholder in a corporation I cannot be tried for any criminal or civil crimes that the company perpetrated, unless, of course, I were found to have been personally involved in said crimes.

By the way I may have spoken too soon of the death of Enron exec Kenneth Lay according to  http://www.kenlayisalive.org/  ;D

http://media.timesfreepress.com/img/photos/2011/09/30/111001_Economic_Trends_t618.jpg?ba5b5b122dd3d37cc13d83e92a6a0ec0d5bfa32a



Cat

http://media.timesfreepress.com/img/photos/2011/09/30/111001_Economic_Trends_t618.jpg?ba5b5b122dd3d37cc13d83e92a6a0ec0d5bfa32a



Cat

:D

..that's a bit like seeing sales of baseball bats on Amazon going up 50x during the riots

It's amazing how muted the media coverage of these protests is.  Chris Hedges prefers the term "rebellion."  That might command more attention...and more teargas!
:o

It's amazing how muted the media coverage of these protests is.  Chris Hedges prefers the term "rebellion."  That might command more attention...and more teargas!
:o


Yeah.  "Arab Spring" uprisings got more press than this thang.

Yeah.  "Arab Spring" uprisings got more press than this thang.


Precisely.  But whose "press" are you reading?  Here's a Newsmap of yesterday's news coverage, as seen from

...US media sources:
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/9115/usausausa.jpg

...UK media sources.
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/3846/ukukuk.jpg

I know it looks bad, but who ya gonna believe, some random bunch of nerds in Japan, or Ted "CNN" Turner's lying mouth?


It's amazing how muted the media coverage of these protests is.


No, it's not.

He who hath an ear, let him hear.

Cory Doctorow's Little Brother was written in 2007.  

Wow.  Four years is a long time on the Internet.  Nice work, Mr. Doctorow.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/294667_10150483804762524_661007523_11394339_2008857290_n.jpg

(Double-rainbow-fascinating win:  The first link to that picture "has already been tossed down the memory holemoved or deleted", and I probably just marked myself for life by linking to it.  /facehoof.)

Every technology used by both sides of the conflict fictionalized in that novel existed - not on paper, but in real code that runs on real machines or actual policies used by actual governments - in 2007, and most of those techniques (used by both sides) are just as applicable to the real world of late 2011.  For anyone who's ever filled out a "what sort of X are you?" quiz on Facebook, Chapter 9 will send a chill down your spine.  For anyone on the Brooklyn Bridge, that'd be Chapter 12.  For anyone wondering how press conferences work, that's Chapter 15.

Anyone wanting to play this game - for either side - owes it to him or herself to know how the game is played and what their respective side is up against.  

Why are you still reading this silly post?  Stop watching the pink popcorn-eating ponies (at least for a few hours!), and start reading this.  You'll also want to save a copy of that HTML to your local hard drive.  Not "the cloud".  Your hard drive.  A place where it can't be deleted in case Cory's site goes down, and where (probably) only you know you're reading it.  You might want to buy the dead-tree version of the book if you happen to have cash in your wallet, but you probably don't want to use a credit or debit card to buy it.  You do not want to buy the eBook for your Kindle, because the Party would not approve.  

Cory Doctorow's Little Brother is available for free, in full text form (ASCII, PDF, or HTML), from the author's website.  And everyone reading this thread needs to read that novel.

(That is a suggestion, and it is an endorsement.)

Foo bar I just downloaded this "little brother" stuff, I'm older than then now, but I still want to know the truth.
I mean older than those days democracy was banned in our land, and the truth was abroad.
Nowadays, no matters if you live on a democracy land, the truth is hidden or buried under a great deal of mortgage loan.

Yeah, the ones that you're calling wild
Are going to be the leaders in a little while
This old world's wakin' to a new born day
And I solemnly swear that it'll be their way
You better help the voice of youth find


"What is truth/"

I guess you're some kinda lighthouse mate to guide reckless ones from getting aground on a Puppy Cosmos as a little Poof.

It's a must to wake the youth up.

It's amazing how muted the media coverage of these protests is.  Chris Hedges prefers the term "rebellion."  That might command more attention...and more teargas!
:o


Media isn't the means anymore, Maxwell, at least in our house...and I guess in your house.

http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/1179621/0/indignados-ny/manifestacion/masiva/


" Is following your dream supposed to be this terrifying ? ".

Too tied ropes on single worker folks bring desperation, anger and finally rebellion.

Like always did, in the former times chaos ruled until mankind or womankind brought order, prosperity, dishonesty, disorder, disaster, new order and over and over......
From darkened caves, through rising Rome till skyscrapers scrumbled down, the society tree has been cut down and sprout without pause.

To see the future you only have to watch backwards

The previous three posts are mental masturbation.

It helps to keep oneself health  8)

Foo bar I just downloaded this "little brother" stuff, I'm older than then now, but I still want to know the truth.


"You can't handle th-"oh, wait, I'm not Jack Nicholson.  And he was kinda the bad guy anyway.

Will you settle for "Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth."


The previous three posts are mental masturbation.


My shameless quoting of a 1992 movie and a mid-90s TV series in this post?  Totally!

But I don't think you read Little Brother closely enough.  It's not so much a novel, it's a HOWTO guide.  ParanoidLinux = LiveCD.  Xnet as a communications protocol = "Its real-world equivalent results in too much collateral damage for me to name it.  I refuse to use it on moral grounds; overwhelmingly too much collateral damage for a minimal benefit in secure communications."  Clockwork Plunder = a cross between Puzzle Pirates and Second Life (both of which were at their peak in 2005/6), but any MMORPG will do.  VampMob?  Interesting use of flash mobs as diversions, which hasn't happened yet - but which has been foremost on the minds of cops for a while now.  The bits about the use of public transit entry/exit times, gait recognition, facial recognition, as well as the bits about RFID cloning, tunneling SMTP over DNS, and aggressive interrogation practices?  That stuff's all non-fiction; the technologies exist as named and work pretty much as described.)

Both sides of #OWS have been using this 5-year-old novel as a playbook, whether they know it or not.  (For the record, I don't think the government is torturing #OWS folks, but they sure are keeping an eye on them, and I don't think they'd hesitate to abduct/torture the perceived ringleaders if they thought it would put an end to all the fuss, but at the moment, they're smart enough to realize it won't work.  Back in the real world, the media's attempts to spin the protests appears to be just as inept (from the protestors' point of view) and just as effective (from the non-protesters' point of view) as they were in the novel.

Within a week or so, this will probably be a moot isuee: it looks like the #OWS protests will be co-opted by the usual suspects (first come the International Socialists trying to cash in, and when everyone shrugs them off, next comes the Democratic Party trying to do with The 99% what the Republican Party did with the Tea Partiers).  

But for the past couple of weeks, it was pretty interesting to watch the media try to figure them out: no central leader, no easily-identified front groups, no articulable/achievable demands, one minute they're a bunch of unemployed trustafarians, the next they're commie pinkos threatening America itself, and like the sign upthread suggests, they can't be both.  It's a form of anti-politics, and it confuses the hell out of the establishment.

Here is Paul Krugman's take

http://www.rutlandherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20111008/OPINION03/710089983/1039/OPINION03

Hope the link works

The problem, of course, is that these protesters have no platform and no power.  Pretty much the only thing they have accomplished is to trash somebody's private property and make a few news stories.

They'll get nowhere because the current President has surrounded himself with Wall Street insiders such as Daley and Geithner, and was too busy shovelling money at Solyndra to be really worried about the 'little guy'.

Far as I can tell, their main thrust is that "you Wall Street guys are a bunch of pricks" and "the government needs to be giving out more free stuff".  There's nothing new about either of those positions and there is enough political momentum in the country these days to rule out the latter.

The problem, of course, is that these protesters have no platform and no power.  Pretty much the only thing they have accomplished is to trash somebody's private property and make a few news stories.

They'll get nowhere because the current President has surrounded himself with Wall Street insiders such as Daley and Geithner, and was too busy shovelling money at Solyndra to be really worried about the 'little guy'.

Far as I can tell, their main thrust is that "you Wall Street guys are a bunch of pricks" and "the government needs to be giving out more free stuff".  There's nothing new about either of those positions and there is enough political momentum in the country these days to rule out the latter.


The only thing the Wall Street thugs understand is fear.  The protesters aren't scaring the bosses.  When the National Guard starts gunning them down like dogs, the protesters will know they're on the right track.  White college kids with signs don't inspire fear among the insolent One Percent.  Black guys with guns do!  Remember the Black Panthers?
:o

The problem, of course, is that these protesters have no platform and no power.  


Funny, this guy doesn't seem to share your attitude.

"e have to be careful not to allow this to get any legitimacy," he warned. "I'm taking this seriously in that I'm old enough to remember what happened in the 1960s when the left-wing took to the streets and somehow the media glorified them and it ended up shaping policy," he said. "We can't allow that to happen."
 - Rep. Peter King (R-NY)

Given that Rep. King has spoken publicly in support of IRA terrorists from 1982 to 2008 and chairs the House's Homeland Security Committee, I'm willing to concede that he knows how terrorists think.  So why does he sound all kinda freaked out by the whole thing on Laura Ingraham's show?

I wonder who "we" means to Rep. King?  All Americans, people who vote Demopublicans/Republicrat, or just Republicans?  And what's the "this" that can't be permitted to happen again?  If the #OWS crowd has no platform and no power, what does it matter what they say?  They're either aimless hippies with no direction and no political influence, or a front group by which the Godless Russian Communists plan to contaminate our precious bodily fluids, but (much like the poster suggests) they can't be both.

(Assumptions: I believe that a majority of #OWS types would, if given the choice between (R) and (D), would likely vote (D).  I don't believe they're a Democratic front group, because that would require organization that isn't evident.  I believe the Democrats would love to co-opt #OWS in the same way that the Republicans co-opted the Tea Party, but we'll have to wait a few months to see how that plays out.  At present, #OWS appears to be largely independent of either the Jackasses or the Elephants, and I think that is what's scaring the Republicrats and Demopublicans alike.)

Pretty much the only thing they have accomplished is to trash somebody's private property and make a few news stories.


That last sentence is kinda neat.  I mean, most of the time when a bunch of hippies congregate, a few people find an excuse to loot and trash the place within a few hours.  With the exception of a minor scuffle at the Air and Space Museum in DC, there have been no fires in the streets, no overturned cars, and no bricks through windows, despite three weeks of mass gatherings.


The only thing the Wall Street thugs understand is fear.  The protesters aren't scaring the bosses.  When the National Guard starts gunning them down like dogs, the protesters will know they're on the right track.  


First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you...

White college kids with signs don't inspire fear among the insolent One Percent.  Black guys with guns do!  Remember the Black Panthers?

Yeah, they gave white office workers the excuse they needed to vote Republican, which made the Southern Strategy work.  

A little random sampling of the tech news from October 7, 2011 and - a different surveillance programme, but the news came out the same day - should convince you otherwise.  Facial recognition, gait recognition, and other passively-gathered biometric data are being used as predictors of malintent.  (Bonus points for using Newspeak to turn the concept of "illegal or not, we think this guy's up to no good, so round up the usual suspects!" into a word that can be easily conflated with terrism.)

The technology (and countermeasures :) described in Little Brother weren't mental masturbationscience fiction in 2005.  It's 2011, and these technologies are not only "not science fiction", they're in my RSS feed this weekend.