In my opinion all this gerrymandering, the voting acts rights acts districts, and incumbeny protection all this stuff has to be stopped. I mean in my opinion all congressional districting should be done either by an independent comission or by a computer that sets congressional district lines up appropiately. I know some states have independent comissions that do congressional redistricting but not all 50. What is your opinion on this topic?

I don't think you can leave it up to a computer program.  It's not purely mathematical. 

Redistricting is like so many other things in politics.  We like it when it benefits us, but we're against it when it doesn't.

In my opinion all this gerrymandering, the voting acts rights acts districts, and incumbeny protection all this stuff has to be stopped. I mean in my opinion all congressional districting should be done either by an independent comission or by a computer that sets congressional district lines up appropiately. I know some states have independent comissions that do congressional redistricting but not all 50. What is your opinion on this topic?


Yeah, Max is right.  Gerrymandering (named after a Chicago politician) goes waaaay back.  I agree that it works against the minority party, which is the whole point, and it would be nice to find a way to reform the process, but I'm not bright enough to think of one, and although I am fond of computers I don't always trust  the folks who program them

Yeah, Max is right.  Gerrymandering (named after a Chicago politician) goes waaaay back.  I agree that it works against the minority party, which is the whole point, and it would be nice to find a way to reform the process, but I'm not bright enough to think of one, and although I am fond of computers I don't always trust  the folks who program them


Elbridge Gerry (1744-1814) represented the original "gerrymandered" district in Massachusetts (3rd district, 1789-1793).  He was later governor of Massachusetts and then James Madison's second VP.  He died serving in that office.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/96/The_Gerry-Mander_Edit.png/573px-The_Gerry-Mander_Edit.png

I lived in two of those towns: Andover (in the portion that became North Andover in 1846) and Salem.*

"The evils we experience flow from the excess of democracy. The people do not want virtue, but are dupes of pretended patriots"
--Elbridge Gerry

*both in the present day 6th Congressional district.
:-\\

Some of this gerrymandering is terrible like the new Illinois and North Carolina congressional redistricting maps. The Republicans are suing in Illinois. The new round of Texas congressional redistricting is going to court because of the way Texas Republicans in the State Legislature gerrymandered the map around the area of Austin, Texas. The Texas Dems say the new map I think doesn't reflect the growing Hispanic population in Texas I think around the area of Austin. The Republicans also say the new Illiinois congressional redistricting map doesn't reflect the growing hispanic population in that state.

The congressional redistricting in Nevada is also going to court because again if you guessed it: over the battle of the growing hispanic population in that state.

My other fustration is "The Voting Rights Act Districts" has to include people that are voting age I heard this morning on C-Span??? I just thought the VRA Districts were supposed to be reflect overall population growth among minorities and not minorities just of voting age.

Yeah gerrymandering gives benefit to whatever party is in power, to be sure.  That said there are probably some rules that could be set up to eliminate the worst of the shenanigans:


Districts must be contiguous (maybe this is already a rule)
Municipalities must not be split across more than one district, unless a municipality's population warrants its own district (or more).
Some geometric constraints to eliminate the really weird shapes that are obviously carved out to provide advantage to any given party or other 'bloc'. (Possibly you put together an algorithm that minimizes the over-the-road travel distance from voters houses to the geographical center of a district without having to leave the district to get there.)


Mind you this list provides PLENTY of room for abuse but it would have some constraining effect.

Independent commission?  No such a thing.  Somebody has to either appoint or vote the members in, and that is a political process.

It's even tougher nowadays 'cos we have to let everybody vote reeegardless o' race, creed, or color.  Well, there are ways around that too!
8)

What's worse than gerrymandering is the efforts to stop minorities and working people from voting at all.  This is going on in several states

What's worse than gerrymandering is the efforts to stop minorities and working people from voting at all.  This is going on in several states
I knew somebody would bring that up on this board since the members of "The Congressional Black Cacus" in the US House were screaming about that this morning.

I actually approve of The Voter ID rule and I am white but then it goes overboard with like Florida for example it limits early voting from like 6 days before the election when it was 40 days before the election originally. It also puts limits in some states I think(correct me if I'm wrong) to when young people who go to college in a different state that they can't register to vote and vote at the ballot box on the same day. They have to wait like a certain amount of time(like months) to vote at the ballot box after they register to vote. Those 2 rules I don't like.

Voter ID laws are not about preventing voter fraud.  They are about promoting voter suppression.

Voter ID laws are not about preventing voter fraud.  They are about promoting voter suppression.
Max, I'm trying to understand why you guys on the left think like this on this particular issue. Its not like the Voter ID laws in the states that have the requirement to have Voter ID only say minorities(Hispanics, Asians, and Blacks) only have to have Voter ID and not whites. If it was like that I would say its totally wrong but its not like that.

As I said before in my previous post I disagree with a couple things about the Voter ID laws  in the states that have the requirement of Voter ID. Its not totally perfect.

Max, I'm trying to understand why you guys on the left think like this on this particular issue. Its not like the Voter ID laws in the states that have the requirement to have Voter ID only say minorities(Hispanics, Asians, and Blacks) only have to have Voter ID and not whites. If it was like that I would say its totally wrong but its not like that.

As I said before in my previous post I disagree with a couple things about the Voter ID laws  in the states that have the requirement of Voter ID. Its not totally perfect.





To require a voter to have an ID is nothing more than voter suppression because the right-wing machine knows that the people who are less likely to not have IDs tend to vote Dem. such as minorities. The thing that most people use as an ID is a driver's license (which is one of my pet peeves but that is a different issue). Many minorities live in the inner city which does not require a car-so many do not have driver's licenses. People with disabilities often do not have driver's licenses (such as myself). And the elderly also do not have driver's licenses. Yeah, there is such a thing as a non-driver's ID but most of those people who I have mention won't bother to get one because of a number of reasons.

If you look at the statistics on voter fraud-yeah it happens but it is not wide spread as the right-wing machine wants you to think. In any state, the cases are in single digits and nation wide the cases are in double digits.

http://www.truthaboutfraud.org/case_studies_by_state/


Cat

What they'll do is crack down on voter ID requirements in Democratic districts while reducing the number of available voting machines/booths.  This creates long lines at the polls, which discourages people from voting.

To require a voter to have an ID is nothing more than voter suppression because the right-wing machine knows that the people who are less likely to not have IDs tend to vote Dem. such as minorities. The thing that most people use as an ID is a driver's license (which is one of my pet peeves but that is a different issue). Many minorities live in the inner city which does not require a car-so many do not have driver's licenses. People with disabilities often do not have driver's licenses (such as myself). And the elderly also do not have driver's licenses. Yeah, there is such a thing as a non-driver's ID but most of those people who I have mention won't bother to get one because of a number of reasons. If you look at the statistics on voter fraud-yeah it happens but it is not wide spread as the right-wing machine wants you to think. In any state, the cases are in single digits and nation wide the cases are in double digits.

http://www.truthaboutfraud.org/case_studies_by_state/


Cat
Why wouldn't you get a social security card or have a birth certificate?

I know voter fraud is not high but the Voter ID thing is just a good safety I think.

What they'll do is crack down on voter ID requirements in Democratic districts while reducing the number of available voting machines/booths.  This creates long lines at the polls, which discourages people from voting.
Now that goes too far in my opinion by limiting the number of voting booths intentionally and cracking down on what type of ID you can use. I don't think that will discourage people from voting in presidential elections or state governors elections though with your limiting voting machine theory. It might in US House election elections though.

Now that goes too far in my opinion by limiting the number of voting booths intentionally and cracking down on what type of ID you can use. I don't think that will discourage people from voting in presidential elections or state governors elections though with your limiting voting machine theory. It might in US House election elections though.





You don't think that requiring having an ID will discourage people from voting?

The illusion in this country is that your vote doesn't count. So, if people are required to have a hoop or two to jump through, they are not going to be bothered.

The point is voter fraud is NOT A PROBLEM!!!! What is a problem is voter suppression! And that is what these voter ID laws are all about. Please open your eyes and see the truth!!!



Cat

The whole thing is a solution looking for a problem

So when you go and vote in the US what is the process in the voting hall?

So when you go and vote in the US what is the process in the voting hall?



For us, after walking by all those people with signs outside the building, we go in, tell them our name and they usually say that they already have marked us down since they know us. We are given ballots and we can either go into one of the booths with the little red, white, & blue striped curtains or we can sit at one of the tables (because it is basically a bingo hall that we vote at). Carlos & I usually sit at the tables. Many times we compare notes.  :D ;D ;D ;D  When we are done, we bring our ballots to another table where we put our ballot into a reader. We tell them our names again but they usually have us marked down already since they know us. And that is it. Usually there isn't a line at all. Gotta love living in a small town. 



Cat

For us, after walking by all those people with signs outside the building, we go in, tell them our name and they usually say that they already have marked us down since they know us. We are given ballots and we can either go into one of the booths with the little red, white, & blue striped curtains or we can sit at one of the tables (because it is basically a bingo hall that we vote at). Carlos & I usually sit at the tables. Many times we compare notes.  :D ;D ;D ;D  When we are done, we bring our ballots to another table where we put our ballot into a reader. We tell them our names again but they usually have us marked down already since they know us. And that is it. Usually there isn't a line at all. Gotta love living in a small town. 



Cat


You give the old geezers behind the card table your street, street number, and name.  They give you a ballot.  You walk over to the booths, fill out the ballot with a no. 2 pencil, walk to another card table, give the other old geezers your street, street number, and name, and slide the ballot into the little register, and that's it.

In my district everybody who votes is white, over forty, and Democrat so why bother checking!
:-\\

You give the old geezers behind the card table your street, street number, and name.  They give you a ballot.  You walk over to the booths, fill out the ballot with a no. 2 pencil, walk to another card table, give the other old geezers your street, street number, and name, and slide the ballot into the little register, and that's it.

In my district everybody who votes is white, over forty, and Democrat so why bother checking!
:-\\



In our little town, most are white, over forty, & unfortunately Republican.  :-\\  We live in the reddest area of the bluest state.



Cat

Some of this gerrymandering is terrible like the new Illinois and North Carolina congressional redistricting maps. The Republicans are suing in Illinois. The new round of Texas congressional redistricting is going to court because of the way Texas Republicans in the State Legislature gerrymandered the map around the area of Austin, Texas. The Texas Dems say the new map I think doesn't reflect the growing Hispanic population in Texas I think around the area of Austin. The Republicans also say the new Illiinois congressional redistricting map doesn't reflect the growing hispanic population in that state.

The congressional redistricting in Nevada is also going to court because again if you guessed it: over the battle of the growing hispanic population in that state.


Have you SEEN the Illinois maps?  They're ridiculous!!!
Yeah gerrymandering gives benefit to whatever party is in power, to be sure.  That said there are probably some rules that could be set up to eliminate the worst of the shenanigans:


Districts must be contiguous (maybe this is already a rule)
Municipalities must not be split across more than one district, unless a municipality's population warrants its own district (or more).
Some geometric constraints to eliminate the really weird shapes that are obviously carved out to provide advantage to any given party or other 'bloc'. (Possibly you put together an algorithm that minimizes the over-the-road travel distance from voters houses to the geographical center of a district without having to leave the district to get there.)


Mind you this list provides PLENTY of room for abuse but it would have some constraining effect.

Independent commission?  No such a thing.  Somebody has to either appoint or vote the members in, and that is a political process.
There's a town near me that has 5 different districts in it...I think 3 House & 2 Senate...they all meet at 1 point.  It's not a particularly "large" town, either...it's crazy!

You don't think that requiring having an ID will discourage people from voting?

The illusion in this country is that your vote doesn't count. So, if people are required to have a hoop or two to jump through, they are not going to be bothered.

The point is voter fraud is NOT A PROBLEM!!!! What is a problem is voter suppression! And that is what these voter ID laws are all about. Please open your eyes and see the truth!!!



Cat
Cat, I think if the whole voter id thing was done by Dem Governors the left wouldn't complain but because it was done by GOP governors the left wants to complain about it.


On the whole issue of having voter id and that it discourages voting well if you know beforehand you need a voter ID than go get a passport. I know I would just do that if I lived in New York City.


I never said people's votes don't count. We agree on that point.

Have you SEEN the Illinois maps?  They're ridiculous!!!There's a town near me that has 5 different districts in it...I think 3 House & 2 Senate...they all meet at 1 point.  It's not a particularly "large" town, either...it's crazy!
I haven't seen the new Illinois maps but I heard they are crazy like you said. I think congressman Adam Kinzinger will be the odd person out unless Judy Biggert retires. They took Kinzinger's district away for a VRA district for Jessie Jackson Jr I think. I think there was a similar scenario in 2000 with Illinois redistricting when Luis Guttierez got an all-hispanic district drawn for him but the Republicans got 2 seats drawn their way by eliminating a Blue Dog Dem.

In our little town, most are white, over forty, & unfortunately Republican.  :-\\  We live in the reddest area of the bluest state.



Cat
Yeah but isn't the whole state of Vermont like 93% white?

I haven't seen the new Illinois maps but I heard they are crazy like you said. I think congressman Adam Kinzinger will be the odd person out unless Judy Biggert retires. They took Kinzinger's district away for a VRA district for Jessie Jackson Jr I think. I think there was a similar scenario in 2000 with Illinois redistricting when Luis Guttierez got an all-hispanic district drawn for him but the Republicans got 2 seats drawn their way by eliminating a Blue Dog Dem.
They aren't even contiguous...I believe it's Senate District 4 that's completely dissected in 2 by S.D 5 (which also "chops off" part of 3), others aren't as drastic, but still have part of another district running through them so their "sections" don't even "touch". There are now districts with multiple representatives and others with none!

Cat, I think if the whole voter id thing was done by Dem Governors the left wouldn't complain but because it was done by GOP governors the left wants to complain about it.


On the whole issue of having voter id and that it discourages voting well if you know beforehand you need a voter ID than go get a passport. I know I would just do that if I lived in New York City.


I never said people's votes don't count. We agree on that point.


I don't think so.  Bad policy is bad policy no matter who proposes it

So I still don't see how what Cat or Max describes as needing voter I.D. when you go and vote.  That's what I'm trying to understand.  Neither have mentioned showing i.d.

In the UK I get a card in the post telling when and where I should go to vote.  I can take the card with me or just turn up, tell them my name and address and get the ballot paper.  And both US people have told me that the same applies to them

So I still don't see how what Cat or Max describes as needing voter I.D. when you go and vote.  That's what I'm trying to understand.  Neither have mentioned showing i.d.

In the UK I get a card in the post telling when and where I should go to vote.  I can take the card with me or just turn up, tell them my name and address and get the ballot paper.  And both US people have told me that the same applies to them


That's the process in Vt ans Mass, but the states decide on the process.  You need to remember that we have a federal system.  Power is divided between the states and the federal gov't

Yeah but isn't the whole state of Vermont like 93% white?



That is true but I'm not too sure what that has to do with the fact that I was comparing what Max's district is like to ours.



Cat