http://abcnews.go.com/US/end-cursive/story?id=12749517

http://www.covnews.com/archives/16871/

Some may think this doesn't belong in a politics thread, but I disagree.  Public schools are scaling back, if not eliminating, the teaching of cursive writing.  This is absolutely wrong.  They are grooming a generation who won't be able to sign their own names.  Not only that, but if they don't learn to write it it will make it that much more difficult to read it, and won't that be nice for the power structure, an electorate that can't read the Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, or the first person accounts written down in history.  I am curious if the schools in wealthier neighborhoods are following suit, but my best guess would say no.  In my opinion it is a part of the pattern of miseducation that keeps the havenots in check. 

I totally agree with you-this thread does belong here and cursive needs to be taught.


Cat

http://abcnews.go.com/US/end-cursive/story?id=12749517

http://www.covnews.com/archives/16871/

Some may think this doesn't belong in a politics thread, but I disagree.  Public schools are scaling back, if not eliminating, the teaching of cursive writing.  This is absolutely wrong.  They are grooming a generation who won't be able to sign their own names.  Not only that, but if they don't learn to write it it will make it that much more difficult to read it, and won't that be nice for the power structure, an electorate that can't read the Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, or the first person accounts written down in history.  I am curious if the schools in wealthier neighborhoods are following suit, but my best guess would say no.  In my opinion it is a part of the pattern of miseducation that keeps the havenots in check. 


Hard to tell. Here in Beaver County PA, the most 'impoverished' school districts get the biggest state subsidies and have the highest per-student total spending in the county. The test scores and dropout rates are the worst. However, they usually field football and basketball teams to the Finals.

I do agree that cursive writing should be taught though. Maybe if the schools got rid of all the featherbed jobs like useless administrators and all those 'teacher aides" they could have enuf money to teach writing.

Back when I was in school there were no teacher aides. Teachers were expected to teach an students were expected to study.

Hard to tell. Here in Beaver County PA, the most 'impoverished' school districts get the biggest state subsidies and have the highest per-student total spending in the county. The test scores and dropout rates are the worst. However, they usually field football and basketball teams to the Finals.

I do agree that cursive writing should be taught though. Maybe if the schools got rid of all the featherbed jobs like useless administrators and all those 'teacher aides" they could have enuf money to teach writing.

Back when I was in school there were no teacher aides. Teachers were expected to teach an students were expected to study.


Sports has become more important than academics in many quarters.  I have the highest respect for the profession of teaching, but, sadly, it is a system overburdened by patronage, same as firefighters, police, and other civil service jobs, where your family connections are more important than your ability when it comes to getting the job.  I suffered through many a teacher for whom the paycheck was the reason to get up in the morning and get to school, and some who should never have been allowed within one thousand feet of a school, let alone in a classroom.  Luckily, I had a few excellent teachers who were able to instill the love of learning, but they were few and far between, they were also the ones who were battered by the administration for daring to actually teach.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/end-cursive/story?id=12749517

http://www.covnews.com/archives/16871/

Some may think this doesn't belong in a politics thread, but I disagree.  Public schools are scaling back, if not eliminating, the teaching of cursive writing.  This is absolutely wrong.  They are grooming a generation who won't be able to sign their own names.  Not only that, but if they don't learn to write it it will make it that much more difficult to read it, and won't that be nice for the power structure, an electorate that can't read the Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, or the first person accounts written down in history.  I am curious if the schools in wealthier neighborhoods are following suit, but my best guess would say no.  In my opinion it is a part of the pattern of miseducation that keeps the havenots in check. 
This is nothing new.  I have students whom I teach in high school, who cannot read cursive (if I write notes on the board in cursive, they do not understand them) and they cannot write it at all.  They were only taught a semester in 3rd grade, and none of the rest of the grades made them write in cursive, so they kept printing (ATROCIOUSLY - I might add). 

My daughter now in 3rd grade, has terrible printing (the teachers did not feel the need to correct her on her spacing or how she makes her letters) and I am constantly counting her spelling words wrong (as she does not close her o or a making them look like u's).  I can hardly read it.  Even though I tell her to correct it. Her cursive on the other hand, is very neat!  I keep hoping she uses it.

My grandmother told me that she wasn't taught how to print and I'm sure when she died (at 99 years young) she didn't know how to.



Cat

"Antiquated or no, cursive is viewed by some parents and educators as essential to an education -- especially as text-happy teens become ever more thumb-centric. "

;D

Schools taught "penmanship" when I was a kid.  Now you're not even allowed to say "penmanship" because it's politically incorrect.  

It is typical of the NCLB mentality to say learning cursive is a "waste of time."  Our brains are big enough to learn both cursive and keyboarding.  Childhood is  the time for education.  Our brains can soak up skills with greater ease than later in life.  

We complain about our schools falling behind the rest of the world, but we don't want to invest the time and effort to make them competitive.  

Incidentally, I learned cursive but I never use it.  I print in all capitals.  

I certainly agree that it's a bad thing, but I respectfully disagree with the assertion that this is meant to "keep the havenots in check." :)

I certainly agree that it's a bad thing, but I respectfully disagree with the assertion that this is meant to "keep the havenots in check." :)


It is one more way of keeping us undereducated and undereducation and miseducation are powerful tools.

I certainly agree that it's a bad thing, but I respectfully disagree with the assertion that this is meant to "keep the havenots in check." :)


What else is a waste of time in public schools?

Civics
Foreign languages
History
Music
Theater
Dance
Poetry
Physical education
Industrial arts (aka. Shop)
Field trips
Folklore and mythology

And, of course,

Penmanship

:-\\

I would have loved to just learn cursive and and pratice it a little instead of having all the freakin homework that I also had.  

What else is a waste of time in public schools?

Civics
Foreign languages
History
Music
Theater
Dance
Poetry
Physical education
Industrial arts (aka. Shop)
Field trips
Folklore and mythology

And, of course,

Penmanship

:-\\




Those last three sure, I've seen it, but what public schools are losing all the rest of those?  I'm just saying that calling this a conspiracy is slightly alarmist.

It is one more way of keeping us undereducated and undereducation and miseducation are powerful tools.


I don't agree with this either.  Schools are getting rid of a bunch things but I don't think it's for the sole purpose of keeping people down!  My sister-in-law lives in a well-to-do district and each family was asked to chip in $1000.00 for art, gym teachers and the like, as they would not be provided by the board of education.

Now, with regard to this cursive writing craziness, it's ridiculous to think they wouldn't teach it.  Here in NY, they don't concentrate on it until 3rd grade but most of the girls in my daughter's 2nd grade class already can write their names at the very least.  (The boys seem in no hurry to acquire this skill, however... :D)

The dumbing down of public ed has been going on for some time, especially in inner city schools (regardless of how much is spent per pupil - attention LB).  The consequences are self perpetuating.  When I was teaching, many of my students called themselves "ed majors" even though there was no such thing.  We had an ed program that led to certification, but it WAS NOT a major. They were required to have a liberal arts major (so that they knew something that they could teach, like history, civics -Max's list).  But for the majority those studies were a burden.  What they focused on was their ed courses.  I suspect that my experience was not unique.  So we produce teachers who might know how to reach, but have nothing in their heads to teach, not even cursive.  Unless we clean up our act and start respecting the teaching profession, and demanding more from our teachers in actual knowledge, we had better all start learning Mandarin.  

This is definitely a political issue, and in the long run more important than raising the debt limit, but with funnymentalists arguing for science teacher to teach religion (creationism) along side of science (evolution), and segregationists insisting that "state's rights" have to be taught as the cause for the civil war (better "the war  against treason") instead of focusing on the fight over slavery, from the Northwest Ordinance through the Dred Scott decision, and all the other idiots out there who want schools to teach their prejudice regardless of the facts, that's the kind of education we are going to get.  The elimination of cursive is just the tip of a VERY big iceberg

Why are you saying "especially" in inner city schools, DC?  Everyone is feeling the effects!

The dumbing down of public ed has been going on for some time, especially in inner city schools (regardless of how much is spent per pupil - attention LB).  The consequences are self perpetuating.  When I was teaching, many of my students called themselves "ed majors" even though there was no such thing.  We had an ed program that led to certification, but it WAS NOT a major. They were required to have a liberal arts major (so that they knew something that they could teach, like history, civics -Max's list).  But for the majority those studies were a burden.  What they focused on was their ed courses.  I suspect that my experience was not unique.  So we produce teachers who might know how to reach, but have nothing in their heads to teach, not even cursive.  Unless we clean up our act and start respecting the teaching profession, and demanding more from our teachers in actual knowledge, we had better all start learning Mandarin.  

This is definitely a political issue, and in the long run more important than raising the debt limit, but with funnymentalists arguing for science teacher to teach religion (creationism) along side of science (evolution), and segregationists insisting that "state's rights" have to be taught as the cause for the civil war (better "the war  against treason") instead of focusing on the fight over slavery, from the Northwest Ordinance through the Dred Scott decision, and all the other idiots out there who want schools to teach their prejudice regardless of the facts, that's the kind of education we are going to get.  The elimination of cursive is just the tip of a VERY big iceberg


Dumbing down JUST of public education? Try all of society!  :-\\

Why are you saying "especially" in inner city schools, DC?  Everyone is feeling the effects!



Because the indifference to the quality of education in inner city schools is historic and monumental.  It is more insidious than in more affluent areas because inner city residents face a greater struggle to simply live, and therefore face greater barriers to becoming involved in their kid's education, and their own lack of education only makes that situation worse.  Middle class, even working class people have a much greater opportunity to get involved and make things better.

Children from all walks of life and every community come to a Junior High that is centrally located here.  Many families send their kids for a better education than the one they might get at a school that's closer to them- it's a great school.  They are making major cuts to that curriculum as well.  All those kids on a 45 minute bus ride to learn exactly what they would have learned at the closer school - not much.

I say again, NCLB.  Chance no Epsilon getting an Alpha education. 

Now, shut up at take your Soma, kid!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/12/drunken_smilie.gif

I hate to be blunt, but I'd be more concerned about the fact that there are schools that refuse to acknowledge Thomas Jefferson (I think it was him, can't remember) because he was a Deist, or because Texan history books portray MLK Jr. as a violent extremist.

I hate to be blunt, but I'd be more concerned about the fact that there are schools that refuse to acknowledge Thomas Jefferson (I think it was him, can't remember) because he was a Deist, or because Texan history books portray MLK Jr. as a violent extremist.


It's easier to simply deny Jefferson was a deist.  The right-wingers like to call such facts "revisionist history" and insist Jefferson was a howling Bible-thumper.  There are still some holdouts on MLK, Jr.  Again, it's easier to twist "not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character" into a cudgel against affirmative action and for tax cuts for the rich.
::)

Oh, no, I meant there's some schools (again in the South, and unfortunately I can't find the article but it was no more than a year ago) that completely erase this one Founding Father from history for being a Deist.  And again I can't remember if it was Jefferson but maybe because he was a Deist.

Honestly, I don't think this has anything to do with socioeconomic issues at all.  It is yet another "victim" of the illustrious NCLB legislation that has done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to help our kids ACTUALLY LEARN MORE!  Sure, test score may have increased, but according to my college professors, the students that are entering college/university NOW are no more "intelligent" than those that entered PRIOR to NCLB.  So many schools are simply "teaching to the test" that they are no longer teaching students how to apply that knowledge.

Honestly, I don't think this has anything to do with socioeconomic issues at all.  It is yet another "victim" of the illustrious NCLB legislation that has done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to help our kids ACTUALLY LEARN MORE!  Sure, test score may have increased, but according to my college professors, the students that are entering college/university NOW are no more "intelligent" than those that entered PRIOR to NCLB.  So many schools are simply "teaching to the test" that they are no longer teaching students how to apply that knowledge.


Agreed and to the point I was making  :).

Honestly, I don't think this has anything to do with socioeconomic issues at all.  It is yet another "victim" of the illustrious NCLB legislation that has done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to help our kids ACTUALLY LEARN MORE!  Sure, test score may have increased, but according to my college professors, the students that are entering college/university NOW are no more "intelligent" than those that entered PRIOR to NCLB.  So many schools are simply "teaching to the test" that they are no longer teaching students how to apply that knowledge.



Howard Dean calls it No Child Left Untested. I call it No Child Left. That was one of the worse piece of legislation to be passed. I would love to see that baby repealed.



Cat

Honestly, I don't think this has anything to do with socioeconomic issues at all.  It is yet another "victim" of the illustrious NCLB legislation that has done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to help our kids ACTUALLY LEARN MORE!  Sure, test score may have increased, but according to my college professors, the students that are entering college/university NOW are no more "intelligent" than those that entered PRIOR to NCLB.  So many schools are simply "teaching to the test" that they are no longer teaching students how to apply that knowledge.


It comes back to economics.  NCLB is an obtuse answer to the question Why Johnny Can't Read.  Conservatives are quick to point out the high per pupil expenditures of schools in economically deprived areas.  They refuse to see schools are part of a community and a community is an organic whole.  If the students are under duress of poverty, crime, and demoralizing neglect, they won't perform well no matter how much money the state spends per pupil.  It does take a village to raise a child. 

Honestly, I don't think this has anything to do with socioeconomic issues at all.  It is yet another "victim" of the illustrious NCLB legislation that has done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to help our kids ACTUALLY LEARN MORE!  Sure, test score may have increased, but according to my college professors, the students that are entering college/university NOW are no more "intelligent" than those that entered PRIOR to NCLB.  So many schools are simply "teaching to the test" that they are no longer teaching students how to apply that knowledge.


Didn't Bush pass that bill? ???

It's easier to simply deny Jefferson was a deist.  The right-wingers like to call such facts "revisionist history" and insist Jefferson was a howling Bible-thumper.  There are still some holdouts on MLK, Jr.  Again, it's easier to twist "not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character" into a cudgel against affirmative action and for tax cuts for the rich.
::)


Ain't never met no rich folks that had any character and I have met a few

Didn't Bush pass that bill? ???


Yes, then he didn't fund it.

Ain't never met no rich folks that had any character and I have met a few


Shirley you jest.  Senator Kerry, all the Kennedies, George Soros, President O'bama... they are all filthy rich.

It comes back to economics.  NCLB is an obtuse answer to the question Why Johnny Can't Read.  Conservatives are quick to point out the high per pupil expenditures of schools in economically deprived areas.  They refuse to see schools are part of a community and a community is an organic whole.  If the students are under duress of poverty, crime, and demoralizing neglect, they won't perform well no matter how much money the state spends per pupil.  It does take a village to raise a child. 


Absolutely, and the stuff you mentioned as hindering factors just touch the surface.  How about basic HUNGER?  Don't know about you but when my belly cries out for FOOD I'm not much at concentration.  So the answer for poverty districts isn't to "increase per pupil spending", the answer is to decrease poverty (I know, I'm just a loony Vermont Socialist, go figure)

Shirley you jest.  Senator Kerry, all the Kennedies, George Soros, President O'bama... they are all filthy rich.


Ain't never met none o' them

Shirley you jest.  Senator Kerry, all the Kennedys, George Soros, President O'bama... they are all filthy rich.


Obama ain't rich like Kennedy, Soros, or Heinz-Kerry.  Not yet.  He'll do like Clinton he'll really rake it in after he leaves office.  Big fat book deals, lectures at a million bucks a pop, miniseries options, breakfast cereals, lunchboxes, action figures, playing cards...he and Michelle will be shoveling it in the furnace! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/13/icon_thumleft.gif

BTW, Obama's friend, Massachusetts governor Deval Patrick grew up in Chicago's Robert Taylor Homes.  His father walked out on the family when Deval was four.  Laurdine "Pat" Patrick played saxophones in one of the greatest bands ever:
The Sun Ra Arkestra.  Pat was a brilliant musician, but a no-count sonofabitch as a Dad.  Deval took advantage of program to help gifted underprivileged youth and got himself a scholarship to the elite Milton Academy in Massachusetts.  Pat Patrick wouldn't hear of his kid going to some Honky prep school, but Deval wen anyway, and then on to Harvard Law.  Now Deval Patrick is the first African-American governor of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, and he ain't doing so bad for himself!
:)

Absolutely, and the stuff you mentioned as hindering factors just touch the surface.  How about basic HUNGER?  Don't know about you but when my belly cries out for FOOD I'm not much at concentration.  So the answer for poverty districts isn't to "increase per pupil spending", the answer is to decrease poverty (I know, I'm just a loony Vermont Socialist, go figure)


That's why Paul Ryan has his staff read "Atlas Shrugged."  THOSE KIDS are not destined for excellence.  That's why you grow up in an 18 room mcmansion on the lake,  and the welfare kids grow up crime-ridden tenements in polluted slums.  Those kids are not born for greatness.  They're born to serve you and if they cop an attitude, they're defective, so we transport them overseas for re-education kampfs!

http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/10/tophat.gif

That's why Paul Ryan has his staff read "Atlas Shrugged."  THOSE KIDS are not destined for excellence.  That's why you grow up in an 18 room mcmansion on the lake,  and the welfare kids grow up crime-ridden tenements in polluted slums.  Those kids are not born for greatness.  They're born to serve you and if they cop an attitude, they're defective, so we transport them overseas for re-education kampfs!

http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/10/tophat.gif


"Sorry, you can't repeat a karma action without waiting 24 hours."

"Sorry, you can't repeat a karma action without waiting 24 hours."


Gee thanks!
:)

The thing is, I don't associate Wisconsin with ultra-right politics (even though Joe McCarthy came from Appleton).  I tend to think of Wisconsinites as even-tempered, moderate, and pragmatic.  Similar to Minnesotans.  That's why it's alarming to see people from the upper mid-west electing people like Scott Walker, Paul Ryan, and Michelle Bachmann.  Right-wing whackjobs from South Carolina or Idaho are no surprise, but somehow I expect more caution and reason coming from Wisconsin and Minnesota. I probably shouldn't rely so much on stereotypes.

Gee thanks!
:)

The thing is, I don't associate Wisconsin with ultra-right politics (even though Joe McCarthy came from Appleton).  I tend to think of Wisconsinites as even-tempered, moderate, and pragmatic.  Similar to Minnesotans.  That's why it's alarming to see people from the upper mid-west electing people like Scott Walker, Paul Ryan, and Michelle Bachmann.  Right-wing whackjobs from South Carolina or Idaho are no surprise, but somehow I expect more caution and reason coming from Wisconsin and Minnesota. I probably shouldn't rely so much on stereotypes.



"Sorry, you can't repeat a karma action without waiting 24 hours."

Ain't never met no rich folks that had any character and I have met a few


I urge you to reconsider, and this isn't even a matter of politics.

I urge you to reconsider, and this isn't even a matter of politics.


Sure, I'll reconsider.  But first, tell me why?  I'm open to be convinced.  LB mentioned a few rich folks who understand what the New Deal did, and don't want to undo it, but tell me more

What is taught in public school is not a matter of politics? 

The State of Tennessee v. Scopes

And to this day, politicians want creationism taught in schools.

BTW, Mr. Scopes wanted to teach evolution in a Tennessee School in 1925.  He lost at the state Supreme Court Level.

"Death at an Early Age"  still stands today

http://www.pandora.ca/pictures40/389380.jpg

Absolutely, and the stuff you mentioned as hindering factors just touch the surface.  How about basic HUNGER?  Don't know about you but when my belly cries out for FOOD I'm not much at concentration.  So the answer for poverty districts isn't to "increase per pupil spending", the answer is to decrease poverty (I know, I'm just a loony Vermont Socialist, go figure)


Stand outside the Aliquippa High School when the kids come and go and you'll see that there is not much in the way of hunger going on at this outrageously state-subsidized school that has exceedingly poor student retention and achievement, but which regularly fields championship basketball and football teams.

It's hard to dunk a basketball or run for a touchdown on an empty stomach too.

Sure, I'll reconsider.  But first, tell me why?  I'm open to be convinced.  LB mentioned a few rich folks who understand what the New Deal did, and don't want to undo it, but tell me more


Well let me ask you something first: how do you define a rich person?  By how much they make (and if so, in what percentile do they have to be in order for you to consider them wealthy?)?

Stand outside the Aliquippa High School when the kids come and go and you'll see that there is not much in the way of hunger going on at this outrageously state-subsidized school that has exceedingly poor student retention and achievement, but which regularly fields championship basketball and football teams.

It's hard to dunk a basketball or run for a touchdown on an empty stomach too.


Between 1/4 and 1/3 of Vermont public school children get free or reduced lunches, and about 2/3 of those come to school without breakfast, so lunch is their first meal of the day.  If you don't believe that hunger is a major problem in this country then you have your head stuck up what your briefs should be covering.

Well let me ask you something first: how do you define a rich person?  By how much they make (and if so, in what percentile do they have to be in order for you to consider them wealthy?)?


Fair question.  I would say that the top 1% of income earners (not wages since lots of CEO comp is bonuses) would classify as wealthy.  I would add that any family raking in more than 100k should be more heavily taxed.  I'd really like to see the reestablishment of the Eisenhower tax rates.  Things were pretty good back then and the middle class was ascendant, and not in decline

Between 1/4 and 1/3 of Vermont public school children get free or reduced lunches, and about 2/3 of those come to school without breakfast, so lunch is their first meal of the day.  If you don't believe that hunger is a major problem in this country then you have your head stuck up what your briefs should be covering.


I only talk of the school district which I know.

The students CHOOSE to achieve... in basketball and football.  They choose NOT to succeed in their academic studies.  All of this despite a school lavishly funded.

If their sports teams sucked and the students also had poor achievement I might buy the "hunger" angle.  But I don't.

Tell you what... I'll throw you a bone... Let's take the sports team funding and put it towards a school BREAKFAST program.  Would be money better spent anyway.

The students CHOOSE to achieve... in basketball and football.  They choose NOT to succeed in their academic studies.  All of this despite a school lavishly funded.



Does a 15-year-old student really choose what the culture expects from him?  Does he choose his parents, his home, his neighborhood?  

It's a lot easier to push sports on kids than to push higher mathematics and Shakespeare.  This is true of kids from all  backgrounds.

Hunger in America does not look like hunger in Ethiopia.  You're not going to see mobs of swollen-bellied sunken-faced children at the schoolyard.  Hunger does not have to be starvation to put a child at a competitive disadvantage.  Try this.  Skip breakfast and lunch then gorge yourself at McDonald's at 4:00 p.m.  Repeat for seven days and see what happens to your work performance.  In fact, you can be starved for nutrients and gluttonous for calories and so many impoverished areas are loaded with convenience stores and fast food joints.  Move to Camden and ask the guy on the street corner where the farmer's market is so you buy some fresh arugula.  He'll ask if you missed the last exit to Princeton!

WHERE ARE THE PARENTS? ISN'T IT THEIR RESPONSIBILITY?

Yes...but you can't start to solve the problem in an ideal world where problems don't exist in the first place.  It would be terrific if the stress of poverty didn't drive families into chaos, but it does.  This leaves the children at risk for deprivation of the basics.  

I have never heard any social change advocate say it's okay for fathers to abandon their children or for kids to fail at school.  The idea that liberals give a pass on personal responsibility is a Reaganesque myth like the welfare queen with Cadillac.  It just ain't there!

Well let me ask you something first: how do you define a rich person?  By how much they make (and if so, in what percentile do they have to be in order for you to consider them wealthy?)?


If you hafta ask, you ain't rich!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/12/grommit.gif

If you hafta ask, you ain't rich!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/12/grommit.gif


I was asking for the sake of answering his question, so we could agree upon our separate definitions.

Does a 15-year-old student really choose what the culture expects from him?  Does he choose his parents, his home, his neighborhood?  

It's a lot easier to push sports on kids than to push higher mathematics and Shakespeare.  This is true of kids from all  backgrounds.
Yes...but you can't start to solve the problem in an ideal world where problems don't exist in the first place.  It would be terrific if the stress of poverty didn't drive families into chaos, but it does.  This leaves the children at risk for deprivation of the basics.  

I have never heard any social change advocate say it's okay for fathers to abandon their children or for kids to fail at school.  The idea that liberals give a pass on personal responsibility is a Reaganesque myth like the welfare queen with Cadillac.  It just ain't there!


So what would you like the government to do?  My local example of Aliquippa is pretty much a monolith.  (By the way when I was a kid it was quite a nice little town).  There is no "wealthy neighborhood on the hill".  The town is not terribly segregated (there was a time when it was) and is increasingly 'desegregating' for what little may remain.  The Commonwealth is already pouring huge sums of money and sports uniforms into the town.  The school system is jammed with all sorts of "special programs" and "teachers aides".  Aliquippa's culture is Aliquippa's culture. And for all the money has nothing to show for it but Darrell Revis.

People want to blame the town's decline on the demise of the local steel mill.  But many local municipalities and school districts lost even more jobs than the Aliquippians and yet their schools did not sink into absurdity.

My opinion, the decades-long flood of federal and state monies into this town only delayed the natural and inevitable outcome... that it will cease to exist and become a ghost town, and its residents flow into other towns and economic systems that actually work.  In many ways, Aliquippa and its school district is the "Robert Taylor Homes" of Pennsylvania.  Time to stop throwing good money after bad.

If you hafta ask, you ain't rich!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/12/grommit.gif



I am VERY rich. But, I don't have a lot of money.  ;)



Cat

I mean, my parents are rich I guess, not me personally.  But going by Carlos's definition even my family isn't.

I mean, my parents are rich I guess, not me personally.  But going by Carlos's definition even my family isn't.


You may not be personally, but as their child you are a recipient of the higher standard of living their money affords you.  If your parents isolate you within your social strata it is difficult for us to describe, or for you to understand, the benefits as well as the hardships born by people not similarly situated.

So what would you like the government to do? 


Sheee-yit! If I knew that I'd be down in Harrisburg running for the legislature!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/12/dontknow.gif

You may not be personally, but as their child you are a recipient of the higher standard of living their money affords you.  If your parents isolate you within your social strata it is difficult for us to describe, or for you to understand, the benefits as well as the hardships born by people not similarly situated.


So because I can't wholly relate to the plight of other people means I can't sympathize or feel for them?

I only talk of the school district which I know.

The students CHOOSE to achieve... in basketball and football.  They choose NOT to succeed in their academic studies.  All of this despite a school lavishly funded.

If their sports teams sucked and the students also had poor achievement I might buy the "hunger" angle.  But I don't.

Tell you what... I'll throw you a bone... Let's take the sports team funding and put it towards a school BREAKFAST program.  Would be money better spent anyway.


I have no problem reducing the emphasis on sports in schools at all levels.  Certainly we have all heard the horror stories about big time college football, and players getting a free ride academically.  I also agree with your budget priorities.  And yes, some students I have known choose not to succeed academically, usually because of the culture of poverty from which they come (to put an immensely complicated social dynamic in shorthand).

So because I can't wholly relate to the plight of other people means I can't sympathize or feel for them?


Of course you can.  But lets get back to the issue

I wasn't saying all poor kids go hungry.  Some of them do.  Perhaps enough to negatively affect academic statistics.  Hunger/poor nutrition is only one example of the dangers of poverty and hard to quantify.

If you have, say, 300 students available for varsity athletics, it would not be hard to find 30 or 60 hardy jocks to make a big name for the sports teams.  And they still don't have to know how to write cursive!

Of course you can.  But lets get back to the issue


Okay, but I want to first resolve this issue: does knowing that my family is rich or that I benefit from such wealth mean that you automatically assume I have no character?

Okay, but I want to first resolve this issue: does knowing that my family is rich or that I benefit from such wealth mean that you automatically assume I have no character?



I can answer this for him because my grandmother was mega-rich (not Rockefeller or Kennedy rich but a lot more than the average person) and he married me so he does not associate money with character.



Cat 

Okay, but I want to first resolve this issue: does knowing that my family is rich or that I benefit from such wealth mean that you automatically assume I have no character?



I did not in any way suggest whatsoever that wealth and character were inter-related.  You read something into my comments that simply isn't there.

I can answer this for him because my grandmother was mega-rich (not Rockefeller or Kennedy rich but a lot more than the average person) and he married me so he does not associate money with character.



Cat 


Oh, that's sweet. :)  Anyway, sorry for the misunderstanding.



I did not in any way suggest whatsoever that wealth and character were inter-related.  You read something into my comments that simply isn't there.


Oh I was responding to Carlos, not you.

Okay, but I want to first resolve this issue: does knowing that my family is rich or that I benefit from such wealth mean that you automatically assume I have no character?


What Cat said.  The middle and upper middle class people who I have encountered are mostly nice people who's values are in the right place, although the conservative ones tend to see themselves as "self made" and blame those less fortunate fgor being somehow "deficient" , that I find troublesome

What Cat said.  The middle and upper middle class people who I have encountered are mostly nice people who's values are in the right place, although the conservative ones tend to see themselves as "self made" and blame those less fortunate fgor being somehow "deficient" , that I find troublesome


Affirmative Action for the rich:

I know Simmons' son is a moron, but his father and brother both graduated from Georgetown, and the each left the school a million bucks.  We can't afford NOT to accept Simmons!

Oh I was responding to Carlos, not you.




Oh, O.K., I thought I had offended you where no offense was meant, and felt offended that you would think I purposely offended you.  If you can understand all that you will do well on this board.  ;)

What Cat said.  The middle and upper middle class people who I have encountered are mostly nice people who's values are in the right place, although the conservative ones tend to see themselves as "self made" and blame those less fortunate fgor being somehow "deficient" , that I find troublesome


Ah, so see that's where we get into the interesting divide: the liberal wealthy and the conservative wealthy (and the former are plentiful, just the latter shout louder).

Ah, so see that's where we get into the interesting divide: the liberal wealthy and the conservative wealthy (and the former are plentiful, just the latter shout louder).



There isn't anything wrong with either, as long as they are aware of how they became wealthy, admit the power and privileges that go with that wealth, and what people who do not have wealth(and the power and privileges that go with it) have to do just to get along in life.

There isn't anything wrong with either, as long as they are aware of how they became wealthy, admit the power and privileges that go with that wealth, and what people who do not have wealth(and the power and privileges that go with it) have to do just to get along in life.


But what does that part entail?

But what does that part entail?


sorry, but if you haven't figured it out, wealth brings power, and if you can get power without wealth (like from the barrel of a gun) you can get wealth.  The two are twins


Ah, so see that's where we get into the interesting divide: the liberal wealthy and the conservative wealthy (and the former are plentiful, just the latter shout louder).


Yeah. like the Koch brothers, give me a break

Jeez, I'm sorry... ???

Just for your information, I'm as much a liberal as probably you and the rest are.  The only way we'll ever get out of this mess is if rich and poor, liberal and conservative, all learn to like each other.

And it's true what they say about this place, sheezus.

Jeez, I'm sorry... ???

Just for your information, I'm as much a liberal as probably you and the rest are.  The only way we'll ever get out of this mess is if rich and poor, liberal and conservative, all learn to like each other.

And it's true what they say about this place, sheezus.


I'm curious.  Exactly where is "this place," who are "they," and just what do "they" say about it?
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/13/icon_scratch.gif

Jeez, I'm sorry... ???

Just for your information, I'm as much a liberal as probably you and the rest are.  The only way we'll ever get out of this mess is if rich and poor, liberal and conservative, all learn to like each other.

And it's true what they say about this place, sheezus.


I'm fine with that, when the rich, like the Koch brothers and their flunkies, like Clarence Thomas, stop trying the screw everybody who doesn't rake in (notice I didn't say "earn") $1,000,000 a year.  When the rich conservative bastards step up to the plate and admit that they have been given a free ride for decades, and pay up, then we can begin talking about liking each other.  Bring some jobs back from China and India, for a start.  That might even be a sign of loyalty to the U.S. of A