Read some news today that President O'bama is saying that an Israel/Palestine peace agreement should drive towards Israel going back to its pre-1967 borders.

Now mind you I think we should keep our nose (and our money) out of Israel, from either side of the argument.  Let'em fight it out, winner take all, with no help from the U.S. of A.

But I gotta give O'bama credit.  Every other Dem and Repub policician in the country would cower at the Zionist lobby who have already started to vilify him.

My thoughts... good move Mr. President.  8)  Tell 'em all to go pack sand and as a second act, cut off money from both sides of this conflict. 

You realize what this means, of course.  Endless kvetching from the American Right.  Romney said Obama "threw Israel under the bus" and Michelle Bachmann said Obama "betrayed our ally." 

I agree with the '67 borders (heck, I'm for the '48 borders), but it ain't gonna happen.
::)

You realize what this means, of course.  Endless kvetching from the American Right.  Romney said Obama "threw Israel under the bus" and Michelle Bachmann said Obama "betrayed our ally." 

I agree with the '67 borders (heck, I'm for the '48 borders), but it ain't gonna happen.
::)


But Max, the right kvetches about everything Obama does, why should this be any different?

But Max, the right kvetches about everything Obama does, why should this be any different?


They're frustrated because the Dems STILL get the Jewish vote after the Right said so many Armageddon prayers for and gave so many nuclear bombs to Israel.  Bunch of ingrates.

But Max, the right kvetches about everything Obama does, why should this be any different?


Oh we'll be hearing kvetching by both left AND right on this deal.

Damn near every politician in Washington has their heads up the Zionist lobbyists (read: campaign contributors) behinds. Just wait a little while and you will hear talk that he is antisemitic.

When I agree with the President I am not shy to say so.  Every other American president talks about Israel with some sort of religious undertones.  O'bama has not yet gone the whole way and basically written those suckers off, but his recent statement is a good move in the right direction.

Damn near every politician in Washington has their heads up the Zionist lobbyists (read: campaign contributors) behinds. Just wait a little while and you will hear talk that he is antisemitic.


*headscratch*

I remember the Bush II regime.  You know, when the Republicans were the last bastion against the anti-semitic Democrats who were on the forefront of helping the Muslims impose Sharia law to help exterminate the... well, whatever politics was about in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, it pissed off Joe Lieberman to the point that he left the Democratic party and he started voting with the Republican caucus over it.

But I gotta give O'bama credit.  Every other Dem and Repub policician in the country would cower at the Zionist lobby who have already started to vilify him.

I'm old enough to know a troll line when I see one.  But I'm not so old that I'm too proud to bite.  So, are we at war with Eastasia or Eurasia?  (I admit it, I unbellyfeel AmDem.  Or AmPub.  Explain to me the difference between jackasses and elephants again?)  

Speaking of old, I'm also old enough to remember the last time I heard the word "Zionist" in the context of pop culture before.  It went something like this:

"You feel love for your people, disdain for the fools
The enemy's led by the Zionist tools!
You fight for your race which shall be proud and free,
And the only reward that you crave is victory!"
 - Neo-Nazi dirbtalls Skrewdriver, White Rider, and if you think that verse is repugnant, you don't wanna hear the rest of the track.

(For the young'uns, Skrewdriver = a buncha Neo-Nazi farkheads.  Swervedriver = perfectly normal alt-rock band with the misfortune of picking a name that was easily confused wiith a bunch of douchebags.)

I'm not Godwinning LyricBoy here - he's not a Nazi, and at least since Obama became President, he's argued for isolationism as US foreign policy, and while I disagree with him, I think his post was a genuinely-innocent attempt to express what everyone's felt at one time or another over the past 20 years:  left, right, the whole region's more trouble than it's worth, dust off and nuke the site from orbit, just let 'em kill each other and let the winners' God* sort 'em out.  I feel the same way myself from time to time.  (Of course, the Israelis have better weapons and training, so if the gloves really do come off, I'm not very worried about the outcome :)  

But I can't let even an innocent mistake go un-noticed.  Becaust those who do not remember the attempted hijacking of punk are condemned to repeat it.  Sammy Hagar's "VOA" was more punk than the sort of thing that tried to pass itself off as RAC back in the day.

* in other words, the USA or USSR, whichever country happens to be first take over the oil on behalf of the weakened survivor of the war.  Now that the Cold War's over, neither the USA nor Russia has any real use for their respective proxy war sockpuppets anyways, right? :)

Obligatory Snark from Fark: "Romney: Obama threw Israel under the bus. In Obama's defense though, in Israel, that's safer than being on the bus!"

bushjr on the '67 border.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6W73v4p6Yyg

Possibly the most hideously emotive response

I've lost an awful lot of the respect I had for the Wiesenthal Institute :(

Speaking of old, I'm also old enough to remember the last time I heard the word "Zionist" in the context of pop culture before.  It went something like this:

"You feel love for your people, disdain for the fools
The enemy's led by the Zionist tools!
You fight for your race which shall be proud and free,
And the only reward that you crave is victory!"
 - Neo-Nazi dirbtalls Skrewdriver, White Rider, and if you think that verse is repugnant, you don't wanna hear the rest of the track.

(For the young'uns, Skrewdriver = a buncha Neo-Nazi farkheads.  Swervedriver = perfectly normal alt-rock band with the misfortune of picking a name that was easily confused wiith a bunch of douchebags.)



I remember that prick Ian Stuart Donaldson died in a car wreck in 1993.  F**ker deserved what he got too!  Then his pal Nicky Crane from the British Movement (BM as they called themselves) died of AIDS.  Claimed he was just working security at all those gay pride events.  Well, you know how it goes with closeted gays in the white supremacist scene.

Nazi Punks **** Off!

Anyway, back on topic.  I hope the Repubs nominate Herman Cane.  Here's a guy who knows something about foreign policy!

The right of return.
The right of return?
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/12/help.gif
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2kapHC-uA0

Well, you know how it goes with closeted gays in the white supremacist scene.


Fortunately, I don't, but I've seen enough Congressional scandals to get the general idea ;)

Back on topic, LyricBoy (sorry dude, I did kinda go off the handle there, and you got caught in the crossfire) could have done a little better had he phrased his argument in terms of our politicians (and the lobbyists for our defense contractors) with their brains stuck fighting the Cold War, rather than using keywords that imply a spooky Jewish conspiracy to take over the world.

Israel's influence in US politics doesn't require any spooky conspiracies:  Back in the day, the Israelis flew jets whose names began with F-, and most everyone else flew jets with names that began with MiG- or Su-.  It made for great domestic politics in America: if it's between God's Chosen People(tm), even if they haven't quite figured out Jebus, they're our last defense against them Godless Russian Communists(tm).  So help save the world (or at least its oil) from Godless Russian Communism by selling lots of F-branded jets to the Israelis.  

The Cold War was fun.  The problem was that when it ended, neither we nor the Russians cleaned up our mess, because we both had a pretty good business going.  Every time someone switched weapons vendors, (Iran changed twice!), there was a buck to be made.

Israel's influence in US politics doesn't require any spooky conspiracies:  Back in the day, the Israelis flew jets whose names began with F-, and most everyone else flew jets with names that began with MiG- or Su-. 

And when was that?  Are you even aware of what they really used?

Let's see, what fighters did the Israeli Air Force use?

Well, in the 1948 war, they used predominantly Czechoslovakia Avia S-199s, copies of the German Me-109.  They also had some surplus British Spitfires.  Towards the end of that war, they added some Bristol Beaufighters, DeHavilland Mosquitoes, and some P-5 Mustangs.  Only 1 fighter was American, 3 British, and 1 a Nazi clone.

Fast forward to 1967, and the Six Day War.  By far the most predominant fighter (and the one they used to attack the USS Liberty) was the French built Dassault Mirage III.

It was not until the mid to late 1970's that Israel started to switch to US aircraft.  From 1971-1977, their primary fighter was either the Mirage III, or the IAI Nesher, a locally made version of the Mirage 5.  These were mostly sold to Argentina by the late 1970's, and replaced with the more capable American F-15 and F-16.

This had quite a lot to do with their tactics, which in many ways mirror those of the US.  The preferance for quality over quantity is very understandable when you compare the size of their armed forces when compared to those of their traditional enemies that surround them.  And has been shown over and over again, having a superior fighter is much better then having a large quantity of inferior quality fighters.

It was not until the mid to late 1970's that Israel started to switch to US aircraft.  From 1971-1977, their primary fighter was either the Mirage III, or the IAI Nesher, a locally made version of the Mirage 5.  These were mostly sold to Argentina by the late 1970's, and replaced with the more capable American F-15 and F-16.
Hence the quote from the time of the Falklands conflict: they thought the Argentines had an air force.. turns out it was only a Mirage.

I remember that prick Ian Stuart Donaldson died in a car wreck in 1993.  F**ker deserved what he got too!  Then his pal Nicky Crane from the British Movement (BM as they called themselves) died of AIDS.  Claimed he was just working security at all those gay pride events.  Well, you know how it goes with closeted gays in the white supremacist scene.

Nazi Punks **** Off!

Anyway, back on topic.  I hope the Repubs nominate Herman Cane.  Here's a guy who knows something about foreign policy!

The right of return.
The right of return?
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/12/help.gif
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2kapHC-uA0


BEIN AN INTELLECTUAL IS THE SAME AS BEIN AN ANTI-AMERICAN TERRORIST LOVIN COMMIE
WHEN THE TEA PARTY TAKES THE WHITE HOUSE, WE'RE GON LOCK UP ALL THEM SO CALLED INTELLECTUALS WITH THEIR FANCY BOOK LEARNING, AND ROUND UP ALL THEM COMMIE PROFESSORS AND MAKE EM TEACH THE TRUE HISTORY OF AMERICA. WE'RE GONNA STAMP THEM DEMONCRATS ON THEIR WRISTS SO PEOPLE KNOW WHO THEY ARE. THIS IS TEA PARTY AMERICA. VOTE REPUBLICAN, OR BE PUT IN JAIL.

Hence the quote from the time of the Falklands conflict: they thought the Argentines had an air force.. turns out it was only a Mirage.


Not true.  And the Air Force of the third world country did some major whup-arse to the UK.  They sunk the HMS Sheffield, HMS Ardent, HMS Coventry, HMS Glasgow, HMS Antelope, HMS Galahad, HMS Fearless, and the container ship Atlantic Conveyor.  The also damaged another 15 vessels to various degrees.

However, none of those were damaged or sunk by Mirage fighters.  They were either sunk by Exocet missiles (HMS Sheffield, Atlantic Conveyor), or bombs and missiles fired by old US made A-4 fighters.

The main reason that the Mirage III was almost never seen in the conflict is that it lacked the mid-air refueling capability of the A-4.  It also lacked a reliable Anti-Air Missile, something that was not an issue with the A-4.  The majority of the Mirage fighters were withdrawn to protect Argentina, where the shorter range and lack of anti-air capability was not a major issue.

In fact, one of the most unusual attacks in the entire war was against the UK oiler British Wye.  This ship was spotted by an Argentine C-130 that was used for recon.  The C-130 then returned and actually did some minor damage after it bombed the ship!

As far as I know, this is the one of only 2 instances where a C-130 cargo plane was used as a bomber (8 500 pound bombs were manually ejected from the rear loading ramp of the airplane).

I'm old enough to know a troll line when I see one.  But I'm not so old that I'm too proud to bite.  So, are we at war with Eastasia or Eurasia?  (I admit it, I unbellyfeel AmDem.  Or AmPub.  Explain to me the difference between jackasses and elephants again?)  

Speaking of old, I'm also old enough to remember the last time I heard the word "Zionist" in the context of pop culture before.  It went something like this:

"You feel love for your people, disdain for the fools
The enemy's led by the Zionist tools!...."

I refer to Zionism in the classic sense as outlined at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism.  Zionism by that definition is inherently racist (or religionist) and is something which the United States should not be supporting any more than it should be supporting the concept of an Islamic Republic or other similar religiously-exclusive political entities.

By the way I have opposed American meddling in the Middle East for at least the past 32 years, during both Dem and Repub administrations.  ;)

Let's see, what fighters did the Israeli Air Force use?


I get a kick out of the irony of Israelis flying rebranded Messerschmidts!  (I'm sure they did, too :)  Ah, the immediate postwar era - tons of toys available for pennies on the dollar.  

I'd forgotten their early relationship with the French.  My earliest (admittedly hazy) memories were of the Lavi, which was cancelled for political reasons, but it sure looked a lot like something that began with an F- and ended with a 16.  I also remember the speculation over whatever may or may not have happened between them and South Africa (still time to place your bets, because it'll probably be made public in our lifetimes, and until that happens, I don't need to know what happened), to which we turned a blind eye because hey, better .il and .za than those commies.  

But to make a long story short, Israel didn't fly no MiGs...


This had quite a lot to do with their tactics, which in many ways mirror those of the US.  The preferance for quality over quantity is very understandable when you compare the size of their armed forces when compared to those of their traditional enemies that surround them.  And has been shown over and over again, having a superior fighter is much better then having a large quantity of inferior quality fighters.


...and it worked out pretty good for them.  When outnumbered and surrounded, take damn good care of your warfighters, train them very well, give them the best equipment your cleverest engineers can build, buy, or reverse-engineer, and win.


I refer to Zionism in the classic sense as outlined at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism.


Yeah, like I said, I'm sorry for going off on you like that.  Problem is, that word got hijacked by anti-Semites centuries ago.  And unlike the N-Word (which rappers did manage to take back from racists, at least as long as they say it with a "-a"), neither the "Jews who just wanted a place where they would be left alone" nor the "Jews who were so pissed off they wanted to set up an Orthodox theocracy" never managed to take the word back and make it their own.  

We need a word for Jewish versions of black nationalists, and a word for people who just think that as long as Israel exists now (and have managed to win every war they've fought for 60 years, gaining territory every time someone's dumb enough to pick a fight with 'em) the rest of the Middle East should just suck it up.  When you start a war and lose it, you lose some of your territory.  That's the whole point of territory.  Want land someone else has?  Buy it or take it by force.  Got land and wanna keep it?  Raise your price or raise an army to defend it.

Back to language.

I'm a white dude, and I can't (shouldn't, and don't) use the N-word whether I mean it with -er or -a.  "Zionist" is kinda like the N-word.  Unless you're Jewish, you can't really get away with using it without sounding like a Nazi.  You're doubly screwed because the Z-word has only one spelling.  So even though I know you meant the "-a" version (Israel = bunch of gangstas, a point on which we can reasonably disagree) instead of the "-er" version (Israel = j00 banker conspiratorz, a point on which someone marks themselves as a neo-nazi) of the Z-word, you've got no way to express that distinction in writing.

How 'bout "Zionista"?  Then it sounds like you're talking about Jews who support Israel because they think it's fashionable to beat up on Muslims, instead of sounding like you're talking about some sorta superconspiracy with Elders and Protocols and all that :)

Disclaimers:  I'm a white gentile dude.  If there is a God, and if God is loving, then how could He could deny His chosen people something as awesome as bacon?  Jewish theocracies suck.  Muslim theocracies suck. They suck because neither theocracy would let me eat bacon, and that's why I don't live in the Middle East.  But if my options were down to picking one of those horrible choices, I'd live in a country full of Zionistas any day :)

Disclaimers:  I'm a white gentile dude.  If there is a God, and if God is loving, then how could He could deny His chosen people something as awesome as bacon?  Jewish theocracies suck.  Muslim theocracies suck. They suck because neither theocracy would let me eat bacon, and that's why I don't live in the Middle East.  But if my options were down to picking one of those horrible choices, I'd live in a country full of Zionistas any day :)


You think you get a crap deal from the Jews and the Muslims, just wait 'till the pushy vegans take over.  Then you'll have to answer to the Health Food Likud!

Room 101

"Bumstead, let fall that piece of pepperoni!"
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/09/scared.gif

"If there is a new fascism it won't come from skinheads and punks.  It will come from people who eat granola and think they know how the world should be."
--Brian Eno, 1985

"If there is a new fascism it won't come from skinheads and punks.  It will come from people who eat granola and think they know how the world should be."
--Brian Eno, 1985


"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
  - C.S. Lewis

"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule."
  - H.L. Mencken

And that's why, as imperfect as she is, I stil love the ol' gal:

http://cricketsoda.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/mmmerica-tshirt-flag.png

And I'm doing a Turbaconducken for Thanksgiving this year.

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
  - C.S. Lewis

"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule."
  - H.L. Mencken

And that's why, as imperfect as she is, I stil love the ol' gal:

http://cricketsoda.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/mmmerica-tshirt-flag.png

And I'm doing a Turbaconducken for Thanksgiving this year.


"Life is a blur of Republicans and meat."
-- Zippy the Pinhead

“the food-crank is by definition a person willing to cut himself off from ordinary human society in hopes of adding five years on to the life of his carcase; that is, a person out of touch with common humanity.”
--George Orwell

EAT ME!
http://myggm.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/israel-cake-460x250.jpg