This thread was inspired by a talk with Don Carlos on here. Is race a real, biological thing? Or is it purely a social construct? Is it a little bit of both?

A little history on the word 'race' - it's related to the Latin word 'radical' which means 'root', so essentially a race is a group of people who are considered to have the same root. This usually means biological when talking about human races, but it can also refer to a common cultural origin - Hispanics for instance, are a cultural 'race' in the sense of sharing roots in Spain, but do not as a group share genetic roots. Native Americans on the other hand, do share common genetic roots.

On the other hand, being 'white' really is more a social construct than anything else. At one point, only English people were considered white, nowadays, the definition of white includes all Europeans and sometimes Middle Easterners and North Africans as well.

There is basically ONE Root...

Adam and Eve.

I'm now going to be RevCleveland at this moment, but...

God created Man, Man had the power of Free Will, and we are all part of God's own family. Whether to follow God or not is your VERY own choice....

And to think...the narrow path that leads to God is dangerous as well, but the wide path is a 'Comfort Zone' to many...but it's a Dead End!

Okay...I'm done...I'll get off my soapbox now!

First off, lets get one thing straight.  There is only one race, the HUMAN race, which originated in Africa about 100,000 years ago.  Every woman alive today shares mitochondrial DNA with a common "race mother",  and  every man shares Y chromosome DNA with a common "race father".  The way various peoples define themselves and others is in no way biological, but 100% social.  The biological, genetic, historical and sociological evidence for this is overwhelming and the literature is extensive.  (posted in the "Muslim" thread)

There is basically ONE Root...

Adam and Eve.
No there isn't.  There is way, way too much variation in the gene pool for everyone to be descended from only two people.  Genesis is a story, not history.

Race is an artificial construct - people like living in their little groups, and identifying "us" and "them"; race is something people have invented to be able to be in with "us" and look at "them" as something different.  A few physiological differences don't imply any deeper meaning.

No there isn't.  There is way, way too much variation in the gene pool for everyone to be descended from only two people.  Genesis is a story, not history.

Race is an artificial construct - people like living in their little groups, and identifying "us" and "them"; race is something people have invented to be able to be in with "us" and look at "them" as something different.  A few physiological differences don't imply any deeper meaning.


I'm guessing you're NOT a Church-Goer nor ever been in a Jewish Neighborhood nor ever heard of Phil Collins or Peter Gabriel, but hey...Free Will!

And this is the only "US" and "THEM" I prefer....

0pbso85eeNo

How many branches could have got a tree of human roots which has sprout a hundred of thousands years ago ?

To me that's what every different human group is, just a branch of the same huge-humanity-tree.

If Genesis is a story, and not history, then the first couple could have been apes and not to walk straight way, way back then, and they probably didn't bear such a names as Adam and Eve.



Hispanics for instance, are a cultural 'race' in the sense of sharing roots in Spain.

Now semantics lead us to another puzzle: Do we really share race in a root sense or just culture, language, beliefs, manners and religions ?

Within Spain's bounds there are many different ways of social behaviour, languages, beliefs and religions. Spain is small, but with a diverse society which means no other thing than an active branch or our humanity-tree.


At one point, only English people were considered white, nowadays, the definition of white includes all Europeans and sometimes Middle Easterners and North Africans as well.

I learnt Amish in USA refers to someone else as English-men. If this is true, we have another hard nut to crack and chew.

I enhance Carlos' wager with Darwing's Genesis challenge and I bet there's a sole HUMAN RACE
from someone who quit the tree to walk straight in the beginning long time ago before he named all of the animals that he saw.
Unfortunately no one else was in the very beginning to tell the story dear RevCleveland, so feel free to think and believe cause there's room for every God you got.
Me, I rather think of US as unique souls on earth and nothing else.

Amen

How many branches could have got a tree of human roots which has sprout a hundred of thousands years ago ?

To me that's what every different human group is, just a branch of the same huge-humanity-tree.

If Genesis is a story, and not history, then the first couple could have been apes and not to walk straight way, way back then, and they probably didn't bear such a names as Adam and Eve.



Hispanics for instance, are a cultural 'race' in the sense of sharing roots in Spain.

Now semantics lead us to another puzzle: Do we really share race in a root sense or just culture, language, beliefs, manners and religions ?

Within Spain's bounds there are many different ways of social behaviour, languages, beliefs and religions. Spain is small, but with a diverse society which means no other thing than an active branch or our humanity-tree.


At one point, only English people were considered white, nowadays, the definition of white includes all Europeans and sometimes Middle Easterners and North Africans as well.

I learnt Amish in USA refers to someone else as English-men. If this is true, we have another hard nut to crack and chew.

I enhance Carlos' wager with Darwing's Genesis challenge and I bet there's a sole HUMAN RACE
from someone who quit the tree to walk straight in the beginning long time ago before he named all of the animals that he saw.
Unfortunately no one else was in the very beginning to tell the story dear RevCleveland, so feel free to think and believe cause there's room for every God you got.
Me, I rather think of US as unique souls on earth and nothing else.

Amen


Okay, but it was written...the stuff I said that is (This is why I now use the term "Free Will"). I think it's interesting that we call God "The Vine" and we are "The Branches". Grapevines have roots, and I like how you say we're ALL unique, that's why people say "When God Made You...He Broke The Mold".

Okay...I'll go back to MrCleveland again.

I'm guessing you're NOT a Church-Goer nor ever been in a Jewish Neighborhood nor ever heard of Phil Collins or Peter Gabriel, but hey...Free Will!

No, I'm not a church-goer, but I've been in plenty of Jewish neighbourhoods over the years.  I'm sure there may be many Orthodox types who think that the bible is literally true, but I've not met any at all (we're talking dozens, if not hundreds) who consider the story of Adam and Eve to be historically accurate.  To believe that, you have to either think that huge swathes of scientific thought are wrong, or that a quixotic god planted all this misleading evidence.. either of those suppositions seem fantastically unlikely when set against the possibility that a story passed down orally for generations before being written down might not be factually correct.


..and I spent a year sharing a room at University with a Genesis fanatic.  Never been able to enjoy their music since.

This thread was inspired by a talk with Don Carlos on here. Is race a real, biological thing?


Yes, race exists.  If a male and female can mate and produce fertile offspring, they're of the same race.

My race is homo sapiens sapiens.  Here is one of my kind, harnessing the power of two Equus ferus caballus. 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/Farmer_plowing.jpg/800px-Farmer_plowing.jpg

Question: How many races of horse are in that picture?

Yes, race exists.  If a male and female can mate and produce fertile offspring, they're of the same race.

Isn't that the definition of "species"?

Question: How many races of horse are in that picture?

They don't look like racehorses...

Of course it does, why do you think I'm always running?  ;D

I take the middle ground between Philbo and MrC on Adam & Eve and the Garden of Eden.

I don't believe it is literally true.  It is a symbolic story about what it means to be Human in God's universe.  There is divine truth within the symbolism.  I believe the same about most stories in the Bible.  Thus, the story is more powerfully true than if it were true verbatim.

"Race" exists, but it is much more a construct of Man's mind than of DNA.  Skin color, hair pigment, heritable height and bodily girth, epicanthic fold of the eyelid, and so forth, account for minuscule differences in DNA.  As Foo Bar points out, any homo sapiens sapiens can reproduce with any other homo sapiens sapiens, but a human being cannot reproduce with a chimpanzee -- though we share 99% of the same DNA -- no matter how hard they try!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/13/icon_shaking2.gif

I take the middle ground between Philbo and MrC on Adam & Eve and the Garden of Eden.but a human being cannot reproduce with a chimpanzee -- though we share 99% of the same DNA -- no matter how hard they try!


And speaking of chimpanees, a frog is right out.

And speaking of chimpanees, a frog is right out.


Are YOU responsible for the lost frog people of Catalina?
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/13/kermit.gif

Are YOU responsible for the lost frog people of Catalina?
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/13/kermit.gif


Oh, no, it's worse than that.  But funnier.

http://blog.wtfconcept.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/wat.jpg

Let's just say that if you google "chimp frog", you get something that's funnier than what an elephant did to a pig in South Park...

http://www.animalclipart.net/_thumbs/0512-0708-1812-0918.jpg

...and at least as natural as what a Fundie Gubernatorial Candidate did to a mule.

http://www.animalclipart.net/_thumbs/0512-0708-1812-0920.jpg

This frog disagrees.  But you'll laugh.  You'll cringe, you'll hate yourself the rest of the night, you'll want to gouge your eyes out, but by Glub, you'll laugh.

Don't forget the terrible, the ugly ---

WEREFROG!!!
http://ny-image1.etsy.com/il_fullxfull.10601445.jpg

http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/05/frog.gif