Was reading the article in this link today, which appears to follow a fairly neutral viewpoint of the issue in Wisconsin and other states:

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_BROKEN_BUDGETS_NON_UNION_STATES?SITE=PAPIT&SECTION=BUSINESS&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Interestingly there is one spot that quotes the Tennessee Education Association (TEA) as saying (about a similar proposal to limit teacher bargaining up in Tennessee) "the proposal is political payback by Republicans because the group has given more financial support to Democratic candidates over the years".

Now THERE's a hypocritical statement if I ever heard one.  Basically what they are saying is "Hey, we paid good money to the Dems to do our bidding in the past, but now that the Repubs are in power it is payback time."  Seems to me the only thing they are upset about is that somebody else is now doing what the TEA has been doing all along.  ;D

But again I reiterate my position... I do not know why state governments should feel the need to curtail collective bargaining priveledges.  All the state government has to do is to refuse to agree to contracts that they believe are onerous, and hire replacement workers if the labor unions go on strike.  I for one support the priveledge of ALL workers to form labor unions and to go on strike, so long as they understand that the employer can hire replacement workers in the event of a strike over an expired contract (or a wildcat, out-of-contract conditions work stoppage)

It is an interesting question for me.  I would be very nervous about police, firefighters, and public safety officials going on strike for indeterminate periods, and for obvious reasons.  Pubic school teachers play a vital role in the future well-being of our society and yet they get treated with a kind of contempt not held for cops and firemen.  In other words, public school teachers, cops, and firefighters are not in the "market" economy but rather the public infrastructure.  I'm almost inclined to agree with limiting the amount of days teachers can strike.  Not sure.

What say you, educators?
???

It is an interesting question for me.  I would be very nervous about police, firefighters, and public safety officials going on strike for indeterminate periods, and for obvious reasons.  Pubic school teachers play a vital role in the future well-being of our society and yet they get treated with a kind of contempt not held for cops and firemen.  In other words, public school teachers, cops, and firefighters are not in the "market" economy but rather the public infrastructure.  I'm almost inclined to agree with limiting the amount of days teachers can strike.  Not sure.

What say you, educators?
???


In Vermont, public school teachers can strike, although they rarely do.  My union had a no strike - no lock-out provision in our contract, but we could use fact finding and mediation, and ultimately go to the legislature to settle a contract.  Public school teachers have no access to the legislature, so their only recourse is to strike.  Often the threat of a strike, or a strike vote leads to a settlement.  As long as NO is a good faith bargaining position, and there is no neutral  arbitrator, the strike is the ultimate solution for labor, although it is very expensive for both unions and their members.  Most unions these days don't have fat war chests, and how long could most people last without a pay check?

But again I reiterate my position... I do not know why state governments should feel the need to curtail collective bargaining priveledges.  All the state government has to do is to refuse to agree to contracts that they believe are onerous, and hire replacement workers if the labor unions go on strike.  I for one support the priveledge of ALL workers to form labor unions and to go on strike, so long as they understand that the employer can hire replacement workers in the event of a strike over an expired contract (or a wildcat, out-of-contract conditions work stoppage)


Collective bargaining should be the right of all workers, not a privilege.  And hiring replacement workers would be fine too, so long as, in the public sector, they have the credentials for the job, as long as workers can use mass picketing and secondary boycotts etc (ie, repeal Taft-Hartly and Landrum-Griffin)

All the state government has to do is to refuse to agree to contracts that they believe are onerous, and hire replacement workers if the labor unions go on strike.


Your state's politics may vary, but in Kalifornistan, it's impossible to get elected without the support of the prison guards' union, the police union, and the teachers' union, in approximately that order of importance.

The net effect is that candidates from both parties practically beg to sign onerous contracts in exchange for campaign funding, volunteers, and endorsements.  After all, if there's a shortfall in the pension fund, whoever's in power when the shortfall hits home can always promise to raise taxes to pay for the promises of the past.  Or cut spending on stuff that isn't pension funds.  It worked out so well for General Motors, didn't it?

California's past 10-15 years in a nutshell:

Act I:
Gray Davis: "Wow!  Dot-com boom gives us an extra 9% of everyone's stock options in the form of capital gains taxes."
Unions: "Woohoo!  You want our support for re-election, you gotta be spreadin' that around, 'bro!"
Gray Davis: "Sure, work for 20 years and retire for life on your current salary."
Unions: "Done!"
Stock Market Bubble:  *pop*
Gray Davis "Uh, guys, we're broke.  And some of those dot-com ex-millionaires have capital losses so big they'll never have to report a gain for the rest of their lives."
Unions: "So?"
Gray Davis: Papers over the problem until there's a recall election over the Enron scandal and he's Terminated.

Act II:
Arnold Schwarzenegger: "I haff not come to Kauleefornyuh to rearrange da boxes on de org charts.  I haff come to blow dem up!"
Unions: "Oh yeah?  You and what legislature?"
Governator: "Oh yeah, I hadn't thought of that.  How about a special referendum to see how we do this?
Unions: "OK, but you gotta win it first."
Governator: "OK, so I lost it badly.  And you guys even got a temporary tax increase through the referendum process.  OK, you win.  Now what?"
Unions: "Whatever Gray Davis did."
Governator: Papers over the problem until there's a general election and he walks away.

Act III (a work in progress):
Jerry Brown: "Hey guys, I'm back!"
Unions: "Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!"
Jerry Brown: "Uh, guys, I'm all for making the last guy's temporary tax hikes permanent, but we're still broke."

This year, California's mess gets interesting.

As to how screwed everyone is (or should be), that depends also on politics.  If your state doesn't guarantee state pensions, then when the state pension fund implodes, only those who were supposed to draw on that fund are screwed.  If your state does guarantee state pensions, then when the state pension fund implodes, all its taxpayers are screwed.

Your state's politics may vary, but in Kalifornistan, it's impossible to get elected without the support of the prison guards' union, the police union, and the teachers' union, in approximately that order of importance.

The net effect is that candidates from both parties practically beg to sign onerous contracts in exchange for campaign funding, volunteers, and endorsements.  After all, if there's a shortfall in the pension fund, whoever's in power when the shortfall hits home can always promise to raise taxes to pay for the promises of the past.  Or cut spending on stuff that isn't pension funds.  It worked out so well for General Motors, didn't it?

California's past 10-15 years in a nutshell:

Act I:
Gray Davis: "Wow!  Dot-com boom gives us an extra 9% of everyone's stock options in the form of capital gains taxes."
Unions: "Woohoo!  You want our support for re-election, you gotta be spreadin' that around, 'bro!"
Gray Davis: "Sure, work for 20 years and retire for life on your current salary."
Unions: "Done!"
Stock Market Bubble:  *pop*
Gray Davis "Uh, guys, we're broke.  And some of those dot-com ex-millionaires have capital losses so big they'll never have to report a gain for the rest of their lives."
Unions: "So?"
Gray Davis: Papers over the problem until there's a recall election over the Enron scandal and he's Terminated.

Act II:
Arnold Schwarzenegger: "I haff not come to Kauleefornyuh to rearrange da boxes on de org charts.  I haff come to blow dem up!"
Unions: "Oh yeah?  You and what legislature?"
Governator: "Oh yeah, I hadn't thought of that.  How about a special referendum to see how we do this?
Unions: "OK, but you gotta win it first."
Governator: "OK, so I lost it badly.  And you guys even got a temporary tax increase through the referendum process.  OK, you win.  Now what?"
Unions: "Whatever Gray Davis did."
Governator: Papers over the problem until there's a general election and he walks away.

Act III (a work in progress):
Jerry Brown: "Hey guys, I'm back!"
Unions: "Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!"
Jerry Brown: "Uh, guys, I'm all for making the last guy's temporary tax hikes permanent, but we're still broke."

This year, California's mess gets interesting.

As to how screwed everyone is (or should be), that depends also on politics.  If your state doesn't guarantee state pensions, then when the state pension fund implodes, only those who were supposed to draw on that fund are screwed.  If your state does guarantee state pensions, then when the state pension fund implodes, all its taxpayers are screwed.


Yeah, ain't politics grand?  And now its the repub's turn to pay off their creditors.

And speaking of public sector workers, I hear that in Wisc. state police are refusing to "clear the capital" (sound familiar?) of protesters.  If the is an act of solidarity with the others or a covering of their own a$$es its good either way.

Although the Deadline passed 4 or 5 hours ago, protesters in Madison have not completely cleared out from the Capital Building.

Will be interesting to see how long this takes to play out.

Or how many of the elected officials who are hiding in Illiniois right now find themselves being recalled. Their constituants are clearly not happy right now.

Collective bargaining should be the right of all workers, not a privilege.   And hiring replacement workers would be fine too, so long as, in the public sector, they have the credentials for the job, as long as workers can use mass picketing and secondary boycotts etc (ie, repeal Taft-Hartly and Landrum-Griffin)
I agree with you on that point!

Collective bargaining should be the right of all workers, not a privilege.  And hiring replacement workers would be fine too, so long as, in the public sector, they have the credentials for the job, as long as workers can use mass picketing and secondary boycotts etc (ie, repeal Taft-Hartly and Landrum-Griffin)


I will agree with that. As long as the 1st Amendment rights of the company are restored, allowing them to inform workers of the legal consequences of a union coming in (such as "we will close the plant if you vote in a union") which they are currently not allowed to say.

And as long as other companies have the right to conduct secondary boycotts of not hiring workers who stirred up the labor ruckus at the primary company. Secondary boycotts... what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

I will agree with that. As long as the 1st Amendment rights of the company are restored, allowing them to inform workers of the legal consequences of a union coming in (such as "we will close the plant if you vote in a union") which they are currently not allowed to say.

And as long as other companies have the right to conduct secondary boycotts of not hiring workers who stirred up the labor ruckus at the primary company. Secondary boycotts... what is good for the goose is good for the gander.


As Utah Phillips said, Hell thats what they're now.  I have been around the labor movement for probably more years than you have been alive, and I have seen employers use every legal and most illegal tricks in the book to defeat a union drive or to break a strike, and guess what - unions have little recourse.  I've seen cops bust strikers' heads and disrupt peaceful picket lines.  I've seen them escort scabs (replacement workers) into work sites.  If you think the current playing field between labor and capital is  level you are so delusional that there is no saving you.