STRASBOURG, France, Dec 15 (Reuters) The European Parliament today urged EU leaders to open entry talks with Turkey ''without undue delay'' in a non-binding but influential resolution.

European Union leaders meeting on Thursday and Friday are due to decide whether or not to start negotiations with Turkey.

Many in Europe have misgivings about the prospect of membership for the poor and mostly Muslim state of 70 million, but the EU legislature's members voted 407 to 262 in favour of the motion calling for talks to start.

The parliament's resolution urged close monitoring of Turkey's progress in improving human rights, religious freedom and women's rights and for talks to be suspended at any time if Ankara backtracks in these areas.

In a secret ballot, the 732-member assembly also rejected two key amendments to their resolution that would suggest Turkey be given an alternative ''special partnership'' or denied membership.


Right so basically they want to admit a country with an awful Human Rights record..that allows awful treatment of women, religious supression and in some isolated cases Slavery.. yes that is right freakin slavery to join the European Union.

If they were part of the european union all 70 Million of there citizens would be allowed to go and live in any other european country and you can guess where they would all come. England is the origional welfare sponge. There is a huge amount of poverty in Turkey.. what better place to come to then England where they will be given a house, a weekly stipend and of course be given priority treatment because they are a minority.

Immigration is fine.. if it is controlled... england is already nearly the most densely populated country in Europe.. House prices are so high here i am having to leave the country to get on the property ladder. We are incredibly overcrowded. Put it this way, this country isn't even as big as Missouri yet there are around 65 Million people living here. Compare that to Turkey.. a vast country and you will see what my concern is.

I can't imagine even wanting to join the EU.

Well as much as i am a euro skeptic.. i can see the benefits.. Economically & Socially.. however i cant see how letting Turkey in would be in the common interest of the other European members. Basically GW Europe is like the US we are all individual states just governed by politicians in each state.. with a european parliament (which frankly needs a good kick up the arse) laying down some ground rules.

Well as much as i am a euro skeptic.. i can see the benefits.. Economically & Socially.. however i cant see how letting Turkey in would be in the common interest of the other European members. Basically GW Europe is like the US we are all individual states just governed by politicians in each state.. with a european parliament (which frankly needs a good kick up the arse) laying down some ground rules.


Ah.  That's what I love about America, something a lot of other countries don't have.  Different, smaller, governments.  50 of them, with the federal government hanging over them.  In America, unlike many other countries, you can just move to each state without a passport or anything, and live there.  Different laws and climates for everyone.  People who love hot weather have Florida, Georgia, Texas, and Arizona.  Cold weather, basically Alaska and the northeast.  People who think fireworks should be illegal have 10 states to go to.  All types of gun laws, ranging from buying a handgun at 18 without a license or a permit, to living in a state where you must be 21, handguns cannot be carried, and rifles are only for hunting.  A state for the gays to go to and get married.  A state where sex toys are illegal (Alabama.)  Land is cheaper in more rural states.  You can move from the most conservative states (Utah, Mississippi, and Alabama,) to some of the most liberals states that make Canada look like Texas (Rhode Island, Massachusetts, and Vermont.) 

That is my favorite thing about this country, all the states with so many different social statuses, ways of life, conservative/liberal, and climates.  There is a state for everybody. 

State government=Good
Federal government=Bad

I agree 100%.. if you don't like it you can move.. although having a Federal Government is neccisarilly a bad thing 100% it is good that the States have so much power. Some things obviously need to be controlled by the Federal government.. and that is what Europe will eventually become. Of course i wont stick around long enough to find out. I had never considerd moving down to the south.. however.. i want a truck.. i can knock back a lot of beers and i am growing a mullet. I'd fit right in.. lol.. i think i need to check out www.realtor.com

Turkey has a terrible human rights record, but is there a chance of pressuring them to clean up there act if they are allowed into the EU?  If they are spurned from the EU and condemned to be outsiders, what is their incentive to improve their social conditions? 
The heavy flow of Muslim immigration into Europe poses interesting cultural implications for those countries in the future.  I have heard various Islamophobes cast dire predictions of a coming Islamic revolution over there.

As to federal versus state government, we need a strong federal government to protect states from the leveraging power of corporate interests.  We also need federal enforcement of human rights laws.

Turkey has a terrible human rights record, but is there a chance of pressuring them to clean up there act if they are allowed into the EU?  If they are spurned from the EU and condemned to be outsiders, what is their incentive to improve their social conditions? 
The heavy flow of Muslim immigration into Europe poses interesting cultural implications for those countries in the future.  I have heard various Islamophobes cast dire predictions of a coming Islamic revolution over there.

As to federal versus state government, we need a strong federal government to protect states from the leveraging power of corporate interests.  We also need federal enforcement of human rights laws.


The Netherlands was just plunged into Islamophobia a month or so ago when a Muslim extremist killed Van Gogh's great grandson or something, who was a filmaker.

I do not want Turkey to join the E.U. The only thing which unites them at all with anything European is their language which is Indo-European. Everything else about them, their culture and their history as the former Ottoman Empire is completely non-European. They not only have a bad record, but like Alcoholica has said, their inclusion puts a terrible financial burden on the Union, and it is an all-around bad idea. The EU has already taken on a mssive task with the inclusion of several poor, Eastern states.Their integration and its success needs to be a top priority before they go including a country of 70 million non-Europeans.

The EU is doing very well both politically and economically. The Euro is up to around $1.30, and the move toward a sort of federalism is becoming clearer all the time. Turkey could only jeopardise this progress. The EU need American/Canadian/Aussie neurosurgeons... they don't need a bunch of broke-ass Turks and North Africans to work in kitchens. There are plenty of broke-ass Europeans who could do that.

The EU need American/Canadian/Aussie neurosurgeons... they don't need a bunch of broke-a** Turks and North Africans to work in kitchens. There are plenty of broke-a** Europeans who could do that.


Yeah we call them the French  ;)

Allowing Turkey to join could help to heal relations with the Islamic world. And if you lot are so worried over immigration from Turkey into your countries, why not a special clause limiting immigration?

Quite frankly, I think your attitude toward this is uninformed BS. Turkey has met all of the required reforms. Turkey has a fairly well developed, and improving infrastructure. They are a functioning democracy and have been for several years now. Yeah, the country has a lot of Human rights problems, but I can think of a couple of EU members who have had some shady human rights in their recent past as well. Much of your criticism in this regard is already being addressed in penal code reforms.

What I find the most laughable about your assesment is saying Turkish culture is completely removed from European culture.  ;D

Turkish culture has extensive roots in both Middle Eastern AND European culture. In earlier times before Asia Minor became "Turkish" it was the cradle of Hellenistic civilization, which many consider to be the birthplace of Western civilization. Greek and Bosnian minority communities have lived in Turkey for years(although the majority of Greeks did leave after WW1 as part of the peace deal with Greece). Mustafa Kemal Ataturk's cultural reforms in the 1920's and 30's were sweeping, and put Turkey firmly in the cultural camp of the West imo. Turkey has used the Roman/Latin alphabet(not Arabic) for decades now(since the 1920's), they listen to European music, watch European films and television, has equal rights for women under the law, etc.  Sure, their culture is more macho than Northern European countries, but look at parts of Greece, Italy, Spain, portugal(i.e. the whole mediterranean) and you will see this is still in many ways part of their cultures as well.

And if you are worried about the issue of Church and State(or in this case Mosque and State), don't be. Turkey has remained one of the region's most intensely secular countries for decades, rivalled by only the likes of France. In fact, France's recently enacted head scarf ban in public schools has been a fact of life in Turkey for years and years. Their legal code and institutions were intentionally made to be as secular as possible, with their legal code being based on Italian, German, and Swiss codes.

Also, Turkey has been a loyal NATO allie for over 40 years. Despite being bordered by the U.S.S.R. they always stayed firmly in the Western camp. Infact, when you consider the decades of Soviet domination behind the "Iron Curtain" that many of the E.U.'s new Eastern European member states endured, they are less compatible with Western Europe than Turkey.

So in conclusion, I am firmly pro-Turkey. I do not understand the sentiments held in this thread. You all are either very, very misinformed, or perhaps hold some sort of anti-Muslim bias.

Allowing Turkey to join could help to heal relations with the Islamic world. And if you lot are so worried over immigration from Turkey into your countries, why not a special clause limiting immigration?

Quite frankly, I think your attitude toward this is uninformed BS. Turkey has met all of the required reforms. Turkey has a fairly well developed, and improving infrastructure. They are a functioning democracy and have been for several years now. Yeah, the country has a lot of Human rights problems, but I can think of a couple of EU members who have had some shady human rights in their recent past as well. Much of your criticism in this regard is already being addressed in penal code reforms.

What I find the most laughable about your assesment is saying Turkish culture is completely removed from European culture.  ;D

Turkish culture has extensive roots in both Middle Eastern AND European culture. In earlier times before Asia Minor became "Turkish" it was the cradle of Hellenistic civilization, which many consider to be the birthplace of Western civilization. Greek and Bosnian minority communities have lived in Turkey for years(although the majority of Greeks did leave after WW1 as part of the peace deal with Greece). Mustafa Kemal Ataturk's cultural reforms in the 1920's and 30's were sweeping, and put Turkey firmly in the cultural camp of the West imo. Turkey has used the Roman/Latin alphabet(not Arabic) for decades now(since the 1920's), they listen to European music, watch European films and television, has equal rights for women under the law, etc.  Sure, their culture is more macho than Northern European countries, but look at parts of Greece, Italy, Spain, portugal(i.e. the whole mediterranean) and you will see this is still in many ways part of their cultures as well.

And if you are worried about the issue of Church and State(or in this case Mosque and State), don't be. Turkey has remained one of the region's most intensely secular countries for decades, rivalled by only the likes of France. In fact, France's recently enacted head scarf ban in public schools has been a fact of life in Turkey for years and years. Their legal code and institutions were intentionally made to be as secular as possible, with their legal code being based on Italian, German, and Swiss codes.

Also, Turkey has been a loyal NATO allie for over 40 years. Despite being bordered by the U.S.S.R. they always stayed firmly in the Western camp. Infact, when you consider the decades of Soviet domination behind the "Iron Curtain" that many of the E.U.'s new Eastern European member states endured, they are less compatible with Western Europe than Turkey.

So in conclusion, I am firmly pro-Turkey. I do not understand the sentiments held in this thread. You all are either very, very misinformed, or perhaps hold some sort of anti-Muslim bias.


The geographic region of Asia Minor was very important in Hellenistic culture after Alexander, this is true, but that fact has little to do with the people of Turkey today. Fast-foward several centuries later and you have the Ottoman Turks (the actual descendants of the vast majority of Turks) coming in to conquer Byzantium, toss out the Europeans, and claim the land for Allah (thus, instituting the Ottoman Empire, a political entity which lasted until the end of the First World War).

A non-immigration policy could very well be established with their entry into the E.U, but this would yield very little for Turkey and the deal would scarcely be worth their while. If they want to engage in merely an economic partnership with Europe, there are other ways to do this, but for a governmental link, much more needs to be considered, and immigration is one of them. If the country were to adopt the Euro, I can't imagine what effect that might have on the status of the currency (like I mentioned before, it's up to $1.30 and it's looking like it will go even further).

Lastly, I maintain that the newly included Eastern states (who joined barely a year ago) need to be dealt with and fully assimilated *first*. There are still many issues to be dealt with, not the least of which is the lingering influence of Communist ideals. It is easy to chock Europe's apprehension up to Islamaphobia, when in reality, the inclusion of Turkey at this time is simply not practical. Give them another 15 years or so to really get their act together. Many of these "reforms" have been so hurriedly put in place in the past few years that they are not even in firmly enough for the cement to have dried.

The geographic region of Asia Minor was very important in Hellenistic culture after Alexander, this is true, but that fact has little to do with the people of Turkey today. Fast-foward several centuries later and you have the Ottoman Turks (the actual descendants of the vast majority of Turks) coming in to conquer Byzantium, toss out the Europeans, and claim the land for Allah (thus, instituting the Ottoman Empire, a political entity which lasted until the end of the First World War).

A non-immigration policy could very well be established with their entry into the E.U, but this would yield very little for Turkey and the deal would scarcely be worth their while. If they want to engage in merely an economic partnership with Europe, there are other ways to do this, but for a governmental link, much more needs to be considered, and immigration is one of them. If the country were to adopt the Euro, I can't imagine what effect that might have on the status of the currency (like I mentioned before, it's up to $1.30 and it's looking like it will go even further).

Lastly, I maintain that the newly included Eastern states (who joined barely a year ago) need to be dealt with and fully assimilated *first*. There are still many issues to be dealt with, not the least of which is the lingering influence of Communist ideals. It is easy to chock Europe's apprehension up to Islamaphobia, when in reality, the inclusion of Turkey at this time is simply not practical. Give them another 15 years or so to really get their act together. Many of these "reforms" have been so hurriedly put in place in the past few years that they are not even in firmly enough for the cement to have dried.


I can see your point on the reforms, however overall I think Turkey is actually more compatible with Europe than some of the new Eastern states. And besides, they won't be included at this time. The talks are expected to last at least ten years before they get full-membership anyway.

However I think you are not understanding one very important thing about modern Turkey.

It is NOT the Ottoman Empire. I don't understand why you keep trying to connect it to the Ottomans. Everything from that era was stripped away overnight by Ataturk(who i think was one of the best leaders of the 20th century). The most drastic reforms to their law, culture, and government have already been in place for 70-80 years. They are not perfect, no. But for the last 80 years Turkey has been turned in one direction, westward. Entire generations have grown up under the Kemalist ideals of seeing Turkey as a Western nation.

But really your point about simply giving Turkey a few more years first is moot, because that is essentially what is being done anyway.

I can see your point on the reforms, however overall I think Turkey is actually more compatible with Europe than some of the new Eastern states. And besides, they won't be included at this time. The talks are expected to last at least ten years before they get full-membership anyway.

However I think you are not understanding one very important thing about modern Turkey.

It is NOT the Ottoman Empire. I don't understand why you keep trying to connect it to the Ottomans. Everything from that era was stripped away overnight by Ataturk(who i think was one of the best leaders of the 20th century). The most drastic reforms to their law, culture, and government have already been in place for 70-80 years. They are not perfect, no. But for the last 80 years Turkey has been turned in one direction, westward. Entire generations have grown up under the Kemalist ideals of seeing Turkey as a Western nation.

But really your point about simply giving Turkey a few more years first is moot, because that is essentially what is being done anyway.


The connection I drew between them and the Ottoman Empire is a lot less far-fetched than your attempts to connect them with Hellenism in the age of Alexander. It was only a mere eighty years since the Empire was defeated (and no changes in culture are performed "overnight" ever), where it has not only been over a millennium which separates Turkey from Hellenism, but also two empires and two religions. Neither connection really matters anyway.

I can't really agree with your statements about Eastern Europe having less in common with the West than Turkey. I an see where you might think that, due to centuries of political division between the two Europes... but they are both Europe, and there is much more foundation to build on between the two Europes than there is between Europe and Turkey. In any case, this particular argument is also moot, since these Eastern European states in question have already been included in the EU, and there is already a preceding responsibility with the West for their full assimilation before the EU goes off and starts including Asia Minor.

Turkey is part of Europe. It is considered to be geographically part of both Europe and Asia, Istanbul/Thrace are part of the mainland European continent. And even the west half of Asia minor is closer to Greece than any neighboring middle eastern countries, although the east and southeast is most definitely more Middle Eastern.

Turkey is part of Europe. It is considered to be geographically part of both Europe and Asia, Istanbul/Thrace are part of the mainland European continent. And even the west half of Asia minor is closer to Greece than any neighboring middle eastern countries, although the east and southeast is most definitely more Middle Eastern.


I don't dispute that fact. But no one can deny the vast cultural and economic differences which would understandably make most Europeans apprehensive about their inclusion... immigration being the prime concern. Turkey's inclusion to the EU poses serious economic concerns for the other member states. The livelihood of the organisation is at stake with this decision, and Europe would be at no moral fault if they considered the risks to be too great. It is a gamble in the truest sense of the word. The preservation of everything they've created must be their first priority.