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Subject: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: GWBush2004 on 12/13/04 at 1:26 pm

More idiocy from Europe.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/12/12/nfight12.xml&sSheet=/portal/2004/12/12/ixportaltop.html

A fresh row broke out last night about the rights of householders to fight back against intruders after the Government's most senior lawyer defended the rights of burglars.

Lord Goldsmith, the attorney-general, flew in the face of the Prime Minister's pledge to look again at the law with a view to giving homeowners more rights when he said that existing legislation was adequate.


Sir John Stevens: confident of support
He said that criminals must also have the right to protection from violence, prompting David Davis, the shadow home secretary, to accuse the government of being dangerously split on the issue.

Lord Goldsmith's intervention came as Sir John Stevens, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, dismissed fears that giving homeowners greater freedom when tackling burglars would lead to an "arms race" that would put them in greater danger.

He denied that a change in the law, which currently gives homeowners the right to use "reasonable force" when tackling intruders, would encourage burglars to become more aggressive.

In an interview with The Telegraph, Sir John - who last weekend came out in favour of the Right to Fight Back campaign, launched by this newspaper two months ago - said: "I am convinced that enabling householders to use whatever force is necessary will discourage burglars.

"The fact that a would-be intruder knows a householder can respond without the fear of being prosecuted will undoubtedly deter criminal acts." Sir John, who will step down next month after five years as commissioner, said fellow police officers were confident that it would act as a deterrent.

"We are on the ground," he said. "We smell it, we see it, we hear it. We know what we are talking about."

Last week, Tony Blair told the House of Commons that he would look at strengthening the law and a Tory MP has introduced a private member's bill to do so.

Lord Goldsmith, however, appeared to take issue with the Prime Minister's pledge to act. "We must protect victims and law abiding citizens," he said.

"But we have to recognise that others have some rights as well. They don't lose all rights because they're engaged in criminal conduct."

Mr Davis said: "They certainly do lose quite a lot of rights. The Government ought to make up its mind. The Prime Minister says one thing and the Attorney General says another.

"Of course all human beings have rights, but when somebody enters your home to commit a crime they give up a large portion of them."

Some critics of a change in the law have voiced concerns that burglars will feel they have to carry guns, knives and other weapons to protect themselves from householders.

Sir John, however, did not see this as a problem. "I have confidence in the good judgement and common sense of the public in knowing how far they should go."

He said that householders should be able to use whatever force is necessary even if - in exceptional circumstances - it involved killing the intruder.

He spoke of his regret about the repercussions over the verdict on Tony Martin, the farmer who shot dead one burglar and seriously injured another during a break-in at his farm in August 1999.

There was a public outcry when Martin was found guilty at Norwich Crown Court and sentenced to life in prison. The charge and sentence were later reduced to five years for manslaughter.

Sir John did not suggest that the jury had reached the wrong verdict, but added: "The Tony Martin case is unfortunate because it has skewed the debate . But it is a fact that burglars have acted with greater confidence since the Tony Martin verdict and that has to be a matter of regret."

Lord Goldsmith, however, warned of the dangers of using the Martin case to make bad law: "There are very few cases that have given rise to this problem. Besides Tony Martin, there's only one I know about.

"It's always possible to extrapolate from one case and think that something is happening across the country when it isn't."

Mr Blair's announcement of a review of the law came three days after the Conservative Party threw its weight behind a new parliamentary attempt to win more rights for householders to protect them from burglars.

The Telegraph revealed last weekend how Patrick Mercer, the Tory MP, would introduce a Private Member's Bill to change the law in favour of homeowners.

In an article in this newspaper today, Mr Mercer described Mr Blair's promise to consult before taking action as a "classic delaying tactic".

Michael Howard, the Tory leader, yesterday praised this newspaper's campaign. "I pay tribute to the highly effective campaign run over so many months by The Sunday Telegraph. It was the first newspaper to highlight this crucial issue and its persistence has been a key factor in winning this change to the law and in forcing Tony Blair's U-turn," he said. "We now need to ensure that Patrick Mercer's bill gets through parliament. The Sunday Telegraph's continued vigilance will be crucial in ensuring

--"Some critics of a change in the law have voiced concerns that burglars will feel they have to carry guns, knives and other weapons to protect themselves from householders."

Can you believe that anyone would say something that stupid!?


Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: saver on 12/13/04 at 5:04 pm

Maybe they are watching the US where we have the ACLU defending the rights of a man who learned how to molest/kill a child by getting information from the North American Man/Boy Love Association.....they can send whatever they'd like it's THEIR RIGHT!!!

So it goes...on

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Alchoholica on 12/13/04 at 5:05 pm

Yeah our Laws are ridiculous.

You may read this and think.. oh GW is exaggerating (Or rather the article is).. however it is pretty much 100% accurate.

Basically imagine this...

A man breaks in to my home.. he has a gun.. and.. i dunno a grenade.. lol. Anyhow.. i can't hit him.. if he has the gun pointed in my face and turns around i can't disarm him.. if he is standing at the top of the stairs and is shooting at my dog or something.. i can't push him down the stairs.

Basically these are my options..

1) Play dead  ::)
2) Say.. yes please mr robber.. take all the stuff.. would you like something to eat?
3) Run!

There is another option.. but i won't discuss that here.. bit dodgy.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: JamieMcBain on 12/13/04 at 5:07 pm

It's official....... the world's gone to hell!  ::)

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Alchoholica on 12/13/04 at 5:12 pm

No.. this is all because we have a un-codified constitution so it can be interpreted any freakin way the law makers.. or the lawyers for that matter want.

We are allowed to use reasonable force, but because the lawyers just claim that any force used is 'excessive' then basically it means you can't.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: saver on 12/13/04 at 5:40 pm

AND crooks know the way it works, so they can act lie they have a gun to rob you, but if you shoot them with your and they don't have one YOU GO TO JAIL!..THEY WIN!

If they have a gun and you don't, they get your stuff YOU LOSE AND ...THEY WIN!

Next scene: They have a gun and you have a gun..YOU HAD BETTER SHOOT THEM FACING YOU BECAUSE IF THEY GO DOWN WALKING AWAY...YOU LOSE..THEY WIN!


What's wrong with the law???

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: JamieMcBain on 12/13/04 at 6:03 pm

It's because of all of the frivilous law suits made by criminals.  >:(

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/13/04 at 6:15 pm

I'm a bigtime lib, but i don't understand all this "protect the home invaders" jazz.  If some a-hole is crazy enough to break into your home while you're there, if you have a brain, you are going to protect your family and property with extreme prejudice.  I'm not saying you should have the absolute right to shoot any home intruder dead, but I wouldn't prosecute those who do.

No, some dope walking up your driveway to ask you for directions doesn't constitute "home invasion."  Some Americans are rather trigger happy that way!

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: GWBush2004 on 12/13/04 at 6:26 pm

Here is something interesting:

1. In the UK, over half of all home thefts are done while the house resident(s) is/are home.

2. In America, only 12% of all home thefts are done while the house resident(s) is/are home.

Makes you think.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/13/04 at 6:39 pm


Here is something interesting:

1. In the UK, over half of all home thefts are done while the house resident(s) is/are home.

2. In America, only 12% of all home thefts are done while the house resident(s) is/are home.

Makes you think.

I don't know how crooks think, but it would seem if they think you might have a BIG GUN, they might think twice before busting into the place.  I've heard a big dog helps too.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Alchoholica on 12/13/04 at 7:03 pm

It is indeed insane.


Here is something interesting:

1. In the UK, over half of all home thefts are done while the house resident(s) is/are home.

2. In America, only 12% of all home thefts are done while the house resident(s) is/are home.

Makes you think.


That dosen't suprise me whatsoever

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: GWBush2004 on 12/13/04 at 7:08 pm


I don't know how crooks think, but it would seem if they think you might have a BIG GUN


Oh yeah.  Not to many people have the guts to put a "proud to be an unarmed citizen" sign in easy view on their property.

I honestly don't see how that 12% can do that, walk inside a house in America with the resident home.  Even if they don't have a gun, the way people act when they fear for their life is not something I would ever think of facing.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Alchoholica on 12/13/04 at 7:10 pm

Desperation GW.. imagine you were hooked on Heroine.. then you would.. in your mind.. be able to do anything.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: karen on 12/14/04 at 5:09 am

We had someone walk into our house and take a handbag.  We were in the other room.  My husband happened to wander in to the kitchen and saw the guy leaving.  He gave chase but didn't catch him.

We'd left our back door unlocked but thought we'd be o.k. because it was behind a locked gate.  Now I'm paranoid if I leave it unlocked whilst out in the garage getting the car out.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: philbo on 12/14/04 at 6:23 am


Sir John did not suggest that the jury had reached the wrong verdict, but added: "The Tony Martin case is unfortunate because it has skewed the debate . But it is a fact that burglars have acted with greater confidence since the Tony Martin verdict and that has to be a matter of regret."

That burglars are acting with more confidence after the Tony Martin verdict is 100% because the press reporting of the situation was misleading: papers like the Mail and the Sun (and to a lesser extent the Torygraph) were making out that Martin was some kind of scared, timid character, afraid of all the nasty burglars running amok unchecked in the village...

...Private Eye ran some stats after the trial: over the previous few years, burglaries in that area had a 80-90% cleanup rate - hugely above the national average, so the "police don't care about housebreaking" argument didn't really ring true; the shotgun he used had been acquired and was held illegally - the police revoked his licence after he shot at the car of someone he thought had been stealing his apples; his story in court of what happened did not tally with the evidence at the scene, plus his talk in the pub about putting gypsies in a field and machine-gunning them did not in all likelihood make him appeal overmuch to the jury.. but for some reason didn't get reported by those newspapers supporting him. 

I was recently talking to a friend (who works in a prison, and has a law degree), and he was saying that things aren't as in favour of the burglar as they are being reported: in effect, if you as a householder have reason to believe (i.e. if you can convince the court that you believed) that an intruder is armed or threatening you, then case law is on your side pretty much whatever you end up doing to said intruder (with the obvious exception of lying in wait with a shotgun) - the big difference between here and the US is that over here you are very likely to be taken to court to prove your side of things (which gets in the papers, 'cause it sounds scandalous)... however, very few householders are convicted of using unreasonable force (which doesn't get in the papers.. can't think why).

Similarly, there have been a lot of reports of burglars claiming civil damages for injury sustained while they were "on the job" - I am not aware of any cases that have been *won* by burglars.

IMO having firearms around raises the stakes too much: I don't have any trustworthy stats, in that both pro- and anti- gun lobbies lie and distort to a level which makes an informed decision damn near impossible; however, the number of domestic injuries caused by having guns around the house seems to outweigh manyfold the "protection" it might give against an intruder.


We'd left our back door unlocked but thought we'd be o.k. because it was behind a locked gate. Now I'm paranoid if I leave it unlocked whilst out in the garage getting the car out.

Reminds me of Humphrey Lyttleton harkening back to a bygone era "where you could leave the door open at all hours, and we'd all sit around a roaring fire... makes me wonder why we didn't just shut the door" ;)

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Taoist on 12/14/04 at 8:50 am


Yeah our Laws are ridiculous.
...
A man breaks in to my home.. he has a gun.. and.. i dunno a grenade.. lol. Anyhow.. i can't hit him.. if he has the gun pointed in my face and turns around i can't disarm him.. if he is standing at the top of the stairs and is shooting at my dog or something.. i can't push him down the stairs.

Lets put this into perspective!
This is simply not true, in the UK every citizen has the right to self defence!  If I am attacked, I am allowed to use resonable force to defend myself.  If my assailant has a gun, no court is likely to say pushing him/her down the stairs is unreasonable.
The main thrust for this change to the law centres around a case involving one Tony Martin who shot and killed a burglar.  In this case, Mr Martin, using an illegal firearm, shot a 14yo boy in the back.
This action was not, and will never be, considered reasonable force.  IMO he got off likely with a manslaughter (accidental killing) for what was almost certainly a retribution killing carried out in anger.
The UK, being a civilised nation, has no death penalty, we cannot pass a law which allows the death penalty to be carried out by the public.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Alchoholica on 12/14/04 at 9:25 am

Reasonable Force is not defined.. thus it can be left to abuse in the interpretation phase.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: GWBush2004 on 12/14/04 at 9:26 am


This action was not, and will never be, considered reasonable force. 


Here in America it is.  The law in Georgia is, if they are in your house without your permission, you can do anything.  Now if they are knocking on your door or walking up your driveway you can't do anything.  But once a perp opens a door, kicks a door down, breaks a window to climb in your house....you can do anything.  Shoot them, hide, stab, whatever...once they are in you can stop them.  And quite frankly that is how it should be....if they don't want to risk getting killed, there is a simple solution.  DON'T ATTEMPT TO ROB THE HOUSE!  I know if someone kicked down my door, I'd blow there head off....again this goes back to the statistic that only 12% of house thefts in America are done while the person is home.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Alchoholica on 12/14/04 at 9:29 am

Yup.. our Law does need to be worked out... however because we don't have Gun's in England.. or aren't supposed to anyway.. (without special licenses) then that kinda can't happen.

Put it this way.. if somebody broke in to my home.. they wouldn't leave unless they managed to kill me and everybody else.

Really reasonable force needs to be defined.. like say don't kill them stun them..but of course it isn't as simple as that. If the robber is armed then you should definatley be allowed to kill them.. but how do you know if they are armed.. it's a tricky predicament.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/14/04 at 8:47 pm


Here in America it is.  The law in Georgia is, if they are in your house without your permission, you can do anything.  Now if they are knocking on your door or walking up your driveway you can't do anything.  But once a perp opens a door, kicks a door down, breaks a window to climb in your house....you can do anything.  Shoot them, hide, stab, whatever...once they are in you can stop them.  And quite frankly that is how it should be....if they don't want to risk getting killed, there is a simple solution.  DON'T ATTEMPT TO ROB THE HOUSE!  I know if someone kicked down my door, I'd blow there head off....again this goes back to the statistic that only 12% of house thefts in America are done while the person is home.

What if a person enters without force?  You shoot him, and then you find out he was just disorient, inebriated, or otherwise confused?  Is that just his tough luck?  I don't think you can just shoot a non-hostile intruder, can you?
Some years back my sister and brother-in-law were living in a town with a high rate of alcohol abuse.  One night my sister discovered a strange man sleeping on their living room couch.  My brother-in-law, armed with nunchucks for precaution, roused him, and said, "Buddy, you're in the wrong house."  Turned out he was just a good old boy who had too much to drink and thought he was in his friend's house up the road!  The guy managed a sloshed apology and Sven was nice enough to give him a lift to his friend's.  No harm done.  If Sven had charged in shotgun cocked, screaming "Try anything funny I'll blow your head off you s.o.b!," something terrible might have happened!

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: GWBush2004 on 12/14/04 at 9:35 pm


What if a person enters without force?  You shoot him, and then you find out he was just disorient, inebriated, or otherwise confused?  Is that just his tough luck?  I don't think you can just shoot a non-hostile intruder, can you?
Some years back my sister and brother-in-law were living in a town with a high rate of alcohol abuse.  One night my sister discovered a strange man sleeping on their living room couch.  My brother-in-law, armed with nunchucks for precaution, roused him, and said, "Buddy, you're in the wrong house."  Turned out he was just a good old boy who had too much to drink and thought he was in his friend's house up the road!  The guy managed a sloshed apology and Sven was nice enough to give him a lift to his friend's.  No harm done.  If Sven had charged in shotgun cocked, screaming "Try anything funny I'll blow your head off you s.o.b!," something terrible might have happened!


I'm pretty sure the law in Georgia is the same in all 50 states.  The law is, once they are INSIDE your house, you can do whatever you want.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/15/04 at 3:27 pm


I'm pretty sure the law in Georgia is the same in all 50 states.  The law is, once they are INSIDE your house, you can do whatever you want.

Um, I say, old boy, are you d*mned sure about this?
:D

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: GWBush2004 on 12/15/04 at 5:12 pm


Um, I say, old boy, are you d*mned sure about this?
:D


I'm pretty sure.  Just a month ago someone climbed into a house window and had his head blown off by a 19-year-old man with a rifle.  No charges, nothing.  Also, remember the scene in Ohio?  The one with the man robbing a small, corner store, and he was unarmed, got the money, and the woman behind the counter took out a gun and shot him 5 times, 3 or 4 of which were while he was down on the ground screaming?  The media (CNN and Fox) played the clip of him getting shot over and over again.  Dennis Miller played it again last night.  No charges filed on the cashier.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Bobby on 12/15/04 at 5:43 pm


Basically imagine this...

A man breaks in to my home.. he has a gun.. and.. i dunno a grenade.. lol. Anyhow.. i can't hit him.. if he has the gun pointed in my face and turns around i can't disarm him.. if he is standing at the top of the stairs and is shooting at my dog or something.. i can't push him down the stairs.

Basically these are my options..

1) Play dead  ::)
2) Say.. yes please mr robber.. take all the stuff.. would you like something to eat?
3) Run!

There is another option.. but i won't discuss that here.. bit dodgy.


LMAO. Yeah I saw Question Time and they were discussing this issue on there with the bewilderment we are discussing it here. I don't think much of Robert 'Kilroy' Silk but I must respect his stance on doing everything possible to protect yourself and your household shy of killing someone.

Of course, they discussed the Tony Martin case and I realised for the first time that he shot the burgular when he was running away. If the burgular was running towards him, maybe he would have had more of an issue.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Alchoholica on 12/15/04 at 5:48 pm

Yeah i don't agree with the Tony Martin thing.. from what i know the kid was just legging it.. and that's what he was.. at the time he was a couple of years older than me.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: philbo on 12/15/04 at 6:37 pm

Martin shot the younger of the two in the back, that isn't disputed: the jury believed the prosecution's version of events that he'd been lying in wait with the shotgun and simply opened fire on the guy from behind - he wasn't actually running away, though.

The other burglar's story was that they'd been chased into the house by Martin's three rottweilers... not entirely credible, either.  Worth noting that he tried a civil case for damages, 'cause he'd been shot in both legs, but it was dismissed as frivolous.  Things ain't as weighted in favour of burglars as the right-wing press here like to make out.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Alchoholica on 12/15/04 at 6:41 pm

Hmm.. i agree that Burglars don't have rights as such.. however my big problem is that if you kill someone who is breaking in to your home you will get done. That isn't on.. they broke in they must face the reprecussions.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: GWBush2004 on 12/15/04 at 9:24 pm


That isn't on.. they broke in they must face the reprecussions.


I agree.  If the guy shot them in their house, doesn't go under protecting your property?

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/16/04 at 1:18 am


I'm pretty sure.  Just a month ago someone climbed into a house window and had his head blown off by a 19-year-old man with a rifle.  No charges, nothing.  Also, remember the scene in Ohio?  The one with the man robbing a small, corner store, and he was unarmed, got the money, and the woman behind the counter took out a gun and shot him 5 times, 3 or 4 of which were while he was down on the ground screaming?  The media (CNN and Fox) played the clip of him getting shot over and over again.  Dennis Miller played it again last night.  No charges filed on the cashier.

Well that's one rotten hood who won't be robbing no more convenience stores!

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: McDonald on 12/16/04 at 1:23 am


I'm pretty sure.  Just a month ago someone climbed into a house window and had his head blown off by a 19-year-old man with a rifle.  No charges, nothing.  Also, remember the scene in Ohio?  The one with the man robbing a small, corner store, and he was unarmed, got the money, and the woman behind the counter took out a gun and shot him 5 times, 3 or 4 of which were while he was down on the ground screaming?  The media (CNN and Fox) played the clip of him getting shot over and over again.  Dennis Miller played it again last night.  No charges filed on the cashier.


Well that is just ridiculous. That woman needs to be charged with something. The man was unarmed and posed her no physical threat. You cannot simply kill someone just because he's making off with your employer's money! The laws which protect vigilantes like this batty broad are not sensible, GW, they are hysterical and incredulous. That man may have been a criminal, but no one deserves to die for burglarising a convenience store without a weapon!

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/16/04 at 1:34 am


Well that is just ridiculous. That woman needs to be charged with something. The man was unarmed and posed her no physical threat. You cannot simply kill someone just because he's making off with your employer's money! The laws which protect vigilantes like this batty broad are not sensible, GW, they are hysterical and incredulous. That man may have been a criminal, but no one deserves to die for burglarising a convenience store without a weapon!

Yeah, I would charge that clerk with manslaughter.  As for the woman who shot the guy climbing into her window, there might be mitigating factors if she believed she was in mortal danger.  If she was a scared old lady who fired the gun in a panic, I'd probably let her off with third degree manslaughter and suspended sentence.
You'd hope the clerk blowing away the robber would make other burglars think twice, but often such crimes are committed by junkies desperate for a fix.  Those guys have zero sense of consequences.  Other dopes who hold up stores are dumb enough to think they're gonna get away with it.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: McDonald on 12/16/04 at 1:48 am


Yeah, I would charge that clerk with manslaughter.  As for the woman who shot the guy climbing into her window, there might be mitigating factors if she believed she was in mortal danger.  If she was a scared old lady who fired the gun in a panic, I'd probably let her off with third degree manslaughter and suspended sentence.
You'd hope the clerk blowing away the robber would make other burglars think twice, but often such crimes are committed by junkies desperate for a fix.  Those guys have zero sense of consequences.  Other dopes who hold up stores are dumb enough to think they're gonna get away with it.


The point is that the culture in this country is frantic when it comes to crime. I mean, we actually are willing to put minors to death by trying them as adults. Sure, criminals have violated the social contract and need to be removed from it, and in most cases, reintroduced to it... But people who take the law into their own hands are also violaters, cannot be trusted, and need to be removed.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/16/04 at 4:35 am


The point is that the culture in this country is frantic when it comes to crime. I mean, we actually are willing to put minors to death by trying them as adults. Sure, criminals have violated the social contract and need to be removed from it, and in most cases, reintroduced to it... But people who take the law into their own hands are also violaters, cannot be trusted, and need to be removed.

"Crime" provides a rich fabric race and class issues for politicians on the make.  No need to talk about THOSE PEOPLE we don't want in our neighborhoods and schools, just couch it in terms of "crime."  Remember Jesse Helms?

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: GWBush2004 on 12/16/04 at 12:07 pm


Yeah, I would charge that clerk with manslaughter. 


Manslaughter?  He didn't die, but I guess I should have wrote that.  The man was shot 5 times, but he lived.  Also, the guy was unarmed, but he said he had a knife or a gun (can't remember which) in his pocket (though police later found out he didn't.)

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/16/04 at 7:30 pm


Manslaughter?  He didn't die, but I guess I should have wrote that.  The man was shot 5 times, but he lived.  Also, the guy was unarmed, but he said he had a knife or a gun (can't remember which) in his pocket (though police later found out he didn't.)

Alright, assault with a deadly weapon, maybe attempted manslaugher depending on the circumstance.  What would you do?  Give him a case of beer and a pair of Braves tickets?

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: GWBush2004 on 12/16/04 at 8:03 pm


Alright, assault with a deadly weapon, maybe attempted manslaugher depending on the circumstance.  What would you do?  Give him a case of beer and a pair of Braves tickets?


Exactly why are you taking the side of the crook?  If they don't want to get hurt, don't rob people.  The woman didn't get charged by the state of Ohio, and that is the way it should be.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: McDonald on 12/16/04 at 8:49 pm


Exactly why are you taking the side of the crook?  If they don't want to get hurt, don't rob people.  The woman didn't get charged by the state of Ohio, and that is the way it should be.


The only person taking anyone's side is you. Maxwell and I have taken a completely objective stance. Just because a guy is breaking the law, doesn't make him less than human. He posed the woman NO PHYSICAL THREAT, and therefore, she had no right to shoot him five times with an undisputed intent to kill. If he had been endangering her life, then by all means, kill him. But the guy was unarmed, it was not her place to shoot him. It was attempted manslaughter, there is no mistake about that. The fact that he was trying to rob a store does not equate his life with that of an insect's. The woman needs to be held accountable.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/17/04 at 12:49 am


The only person taking anyone's side is you. Maxwell and I have taken a completely objective stance. Just because a guy is breaking the law, doesn't make him less than human. He posed the woman NO PHYSICAL THREAT, and therefore, she had no right to shoot him five times with an undisputed intent to kill. If he had been endangering her life, then by all means, kill him. But the guy was unarmed, it was not her place to shoot him. It was attempted manslaughter, there is no mistake about that. The fact that he was trying to rob a store does not equate his life with that of an insect's. The woman needs to be held accountable.

Feh, on the American Right, you're either for summary execution of the accused, or you are for sentencing serial murderers to a full body massage and a Caribbean vacation.  Their rhetoric is soooo tiresome!
::)

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Lord Dark Helmet on 12/18/04 at 1:49 am

If that guy came up to me and told me he had a weapon and would kill me durring a robbery, I would blow a hole in his head big enough to drive through. I don't care if he really had a weapon or not.

The crook should have considered that possibility before the robbery. If he didn't... Oh well! one less moron on the planet.

And if someone comes into your home and attacks you... kill 'em! and wait 'till they're good and dead before calling 911. Cause if they live, they can tort law your butt off!

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: saver on 12/18/04 at 4:31 pm

How many one armed/handed bandits do we see in Saudi arabia after the CHOP OFF the offenders hand/leg or pe**s???

If they steal, they get a hand chopped off..if they still don't learn, they get the other chopped off....Makes me think,.... they don't have many criminals who BOWL in Saudi Arabia.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Bobby on 12/18/04 at 4:45 pm


Well that is just ridiculous. That woman needs to be charged with something. The man was unarmed and posed her no physical threat. You cannot simply kill someone just because he's making off with your employer's money! The laws which protect vigilantes like this batty broad are not sensible, GW, they are hysterical and incredulous. That man may have been a criminal, but no one deserves to die for burglarising a convenience store without a weapon!


I totally agree. For a person to be protected by the law, he has to abide by the law. Restraint would have been neccessary obviously but shooting the man how many times hysterically is not going to count as a victory for justice.

However, the robber should realise that the potential of being hurt is very real when robbing a house/store.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/18/04 at 4:51 pm


How many one armed/handed bandits do we see in Saudi arabia after the CHOP OFF the offenders hand/leg or pe**s???

If they steal, they get a hand chopped off..if they still don't learn, they get the other chopped off....Makes me think,.... they don't have many criminals who BOWL in Saudi Arabia.

We're not about to institute the severing of limbs into the penal system, thank god for that.  Saudi Arabia does not have a system of justice, only a system of fear and revenge.  They are not a free society, America is (at least some of us are trying to keep it that way).

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Lord Dark Helmet on 12/18/04 at 11:37 pm

When you're afraid for your life, the last thing you're thinking about is restraint. I have seen home invaders and robbers shot, get up, and still keep coming. And if the criminal is high or whatever, it may require a lot to take them down.

He had to consider possible death as an acceptable risk. Otherwise he wouldn't have tried to rob the place.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Bobby on 12/19/04 at 4:11 pm


When you're afraid for your life, the last thing you're thinking about is restraint. I have seen home invaders and robbers shot, get up, and still keep coming. And if the criminal is high or whatever, it may require a lot to take them down.


That is for the homeowner to decide. I still think that a person firing lead into a person lying on the ground screaming is not reasonable restraint. That is just making sure the person is dead.

He had to consider possible death as an acceptable risk. Otherwise he wouldn't have tried to rob the place.

Maybe, but I just think house robbers (rightly or wrongly) are opportunistic and are likely to aim for geting in and out of a property in the shortest time possible (not that I know anything about it lol).

I can only presume armed robbers who rob stores/banks have a higher risk threshold. But then it would be nice that people would understand when they have successfully restrained somebody (even under intensely stressful situations). If someone is obviously not moving or is finding it difficult to do anything then it's always a good idea to stop shooting at least. Otherwise, this would unfortunately work against the person defending him/herself.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: saver on 12/20/04 at 5:29 pm

When you see a cockroach, do you give it a little  WHIFF of RAID or do you keep spraying until IT stops moving!

I regard people who don't respect others and their property as ITS as well.

Maybe better the police catch them first then me *eeeeeyyyyyyaaaahhhhhh(*howard deanism).

How else will they learn if their BREED keeps dying off??

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Lord Dark Helmet on 12/20/04 at 7:11 pm

I agree!

If criminals don't care about honest people and their property, Why should I care at all about them.

I call it thinning the herd.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Bobby on 12/20/04 at 8:39 pm


When you see a cockroach, do you give it a little  WHIFF of RAID or do you keep spraying until IT stops moving!

I regard people who don't respect others and their property as ITS as well.

Maybe better the police catch them first then me *eeeeeyyyyyyaaaahhhhhh(*howard deanism).

How else will they learn if their BREED keeps dying off??


Well . . . Comparing humans (of any kind) to cockroaches is not exactly a fair analogy, saver. You can get put into jail for killing a human, not so for killing a cockroach.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Bobby on 12/20/04 at 8:42 pm


I agree!

If criminals don't care about honest people and their property, Why should I care at all about them.

I call it thinning the herd.


As my above post suggests, it's not about caring for the criminals, it's about caring for yourself. You kill a robber/criminal, you are more likely to get the justice system on your back too.



Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: GWBush2004 on 12/20/04 at 9:16 pm


you are more likely to get the justice system on your back too.






Not in America (thank God.)

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Bobby on 12/20/04 at 9:27 pm


Not in America (thank God.)


So you're telling me that in America, you can shoot a criminal dead (even if he wasn't attacking you) and not get prosecuted for it, GWBush?

If that is the case, no wonder you folks have this 'gun 'em down' policy towards criminals.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: GWBush2004 on 12/20/04 at 9:39 pm


So you're telling me that in America, you can shoot a criminal dead (even if he wasn't attacking you) and not get prosecuted for it, GWBush?

If that is the case, no wonder you folks have this 'gun 'em down' policy towards criminals.


It depends, especially on the streets.  But, as I have wrote, once a criminal enters your house, armed or unarmed, you can legally gun them down dead and not get charged.  The police know you don't have time to check if they are armed or not, all you know is they are in your house, without permission.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Bobby on 12/20/04 at 9:41 pm


It depends, especially on the streets.  But, as I have wrote, once a criminal enters your house, armed or unarmed, you can legally gun them down dead and not get charged.  The police know you don't have time to check if they are armed or not, all you know is they are in your house, without permission.


I didn't realise you wrote this down previously. Yep! A totally different kettle of fish in Britain.

They don't call America 'The Wild West' for nothing.  ;)  ;D

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: GWBush2004 on 12/20/04 at 9:54 pm




If that is the case, no wonder you folks have this 'gun 'em down' policy towards criminals.


*Not my writting*  Good example of good gun-ownership in America.

MORE TALES OF SELF-DEFENSE!

--Nashville, Tennessee. A cab driver was answering a call at an apartment complex. He picked up a passenger and drove him to his destination. But the passenger wasn't done. He pulled put a gun, stuck it in the cab driver's back, and demanded cash. The cab driver, however, was prepared. He pulled out his own gun and shot the would-be robber! Police later found the suspect walking down the street with wounds to his arm and rear end. He's no stranger to the police, either. Too bad the cabbie's aim wasn't a little better, or else this predator's career would have come to a well-deserved end.
http://www.wkrn.com/Global/story.asp?S=465545&nav=1ugB4Zkl

--Atlanta, Texas. 60-year-old Alfred Webster was hosting a July 4 party at his house. An uninvited guest, Winfred Earl Walker, showed up. He threatened Webster's wife and another man and pulled a knife. Webster responded with his own .38-caliber revolver. He ordered Walker to drop the knife and leave. Webster fired a warning shot. Walker wouldn't leave. So Webster fired a second shot--into Walker's forehead. Unfortunately, Walker survived. The Texarkana Gazette reported this week that a grand jury has refused to indict Webster for the shooting.
http://www.texarkanagazette.com/display/inn_news/news02.txt

--Spokane, Washington. A man was driving his car when some drunk, doped-up teenagers threw a beer can at his car. He stopped to call police, but the teens followed him to the parking lot. When the driver got out, 17-year-old Jacob Walton hit him in the face. The 28-year-old man drew his gun and warned Walton and his friends to stay back. They didn't. Jacob Walton is now food for worms. Investigators say the driver acted in self-defense and won't be charged.
http://www.msnbc.com/local/KHQ/M87676.asp

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Bobby on 12/20/04 at 10:07 pm

I see. It seems in some ways we live in different worlds . . .

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: GWBush2004 on 12/21/04 at 6:38 pm


I see. It seems in some ways we live in different worlds . . .


Maybe so.  I can at least see the argument for banning private gun ownership, though they simply aren't good enough.  But England went to far, banning police from having guns on their person!?  Come on.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Jessica on 12/21/04 at 11:16 pm

Apparently, a story like this just happened over here. These two guys who were armed broke into a house yesterday morning. The homeowner AND his children were still in there. The homeowner shot one of the criminals and the other one fled. The suspect who was shot later died. They haven't said if the homeowner will be facing any charges or not, but I doubt he will.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: GWBush2004 on 12/22/04 at 1:38 am


Apparently, a story like this just happened over here. These two guys who were armed broke into a house yesterday morning. The homeowner AND his children were still in there. The homeowner shot one of the criminals and the other one fled. The suspect who was shot later died. They haven't said if the homeowner will be facing any charges or not, but I doubt he will.


Another great case of self-defense.  I love it when perps meet armed justice.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Bobby on 12/22/04 at 6:12 am


Maybe so.  I can at least see the argument for banning private gun ownership, though they simply aren't good enough.  But England went to far, banning police from having guns on their person!?  Come on.


I believe we do have a branch of armed police (used only in high risk situations) but, in general, I don't think the police carry guns. I think, perhaps, the police should carry guns too. I saw on Sky News recently some man testing out this new stun gun that gives a kind of charge. I believe these were tested in the US as well. What do you think of the idea?

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: philbo on 12/22/04 at 7:50 am


But England went to far, banning police from having guns on their person!? Come on.

We've not banned police from having guns - they've never had them, and public (and police) opinion is strongly against arming all officers.  Each regional police force has a separate, very highly-trained, armed squad - yet accidents still happen; if all officers were routinely armed, there'd be a lot more "accidents" - how often is the wrong person shot by police over there?  This side of the pond, when the police shoot the wrong guy it makes front page news.


I believe we do have a branch of armed police (used only in high risk situations) but, in general, I don't think the police carry guns. I think, perhaps, the police should carry guns too. I saw on Sky News recently some man testing out this new stun gun that gives a kind of charge. I believe these were tested in the US as well. What do you think of the idea?

Tasers (the "stun gun") have recently been approved for use by armed police - i.e. if the armed squad want to, they can bring and use tasers instead of shooting someone; there's no plan as yet to extend their use to the bobby on the street (pun intended ;)).

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: saver on 12/22/04 at 4:42 pm

I guess it just has to be around you enough(crime)...when you start to direct your compassion toward the victim and when justice isn't served properly, the only justice to stop it would be FINAL justice.

If you find someone has taken your sandwich from the refridgerator at work how do you feel..but when they take/break into your home how do you feel?

Maybe they can get some sort of law that the criminal loses ALL RIGHTS once they enter your home illegally...

How many shootings have there been in England since they are not allowed to have guns?

The country  ISN'T the same size of the US where everyone watches for each other and can run off with property and spendables as easily and not be found or caught....

How about that BIGGEST robbery in Ireland yesterday??? Any security cameras in play??
Hope they catch the theives and give them what for!!!

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: philbo on 12/22/04 at 5:17 pm


How many shootings have there been in England since they are not allowed to have guns?

Seeing as shootings still make headline news, we haven't quite caught up with you in that way - even if reading the Mail may make you think that.


How about that BIGGEST robbery in Ireland yesterday??? Any security cameras in play??
Hope they catch the theives and give them what for!!!

Any odds it's the IRA: they're not getting the funding from the States that they used to, you know.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Bobby on 12/22/04 at 8:44 pm


Tasers (the "stun gun") have recently been approved for use by armed police - i.e. if the armed squad want to, they can bring and use tasers instead of shooting someone; there's no plan as yet to extend their use to the bobby on the street (pun intended ;)).


Heh heh.  ;D

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: GWBush2004 on 12/22/04 at 9:02 pm


Any odds it's the IRA: they're not getting the funding from the States that they used to, you know.


The IRA?

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Bobby on 12/22/04 at 9:09 pm


I guess it just has to be around you enough(crime)...when you start to direct your compassion toward the victim and when justice isn't served properly, the only justice to stop it would be FINAL justice.


Let's hope crime doesn't get that bad over here (it's bad enough as it is) that FINAL justice is the only justice. The law is so over here that if the victim does the wrong thing, he wrongly gets put into jail. I feel compassion for people by saying that if they don't comply with the laws of the country, they will be worse off. It's one thing to get burgled, it's another to be sent to jail for killing a burglar.

If you find someone has taken your sandwich from the refridgerator at work how do you feel..but when they take/break into your home how do you feel?

I got burgled 15 years ago and the police had never seen anything like it. Two back doors were hacked in, the telly was on it's screen and the video was taken by cutting the wires off all the leads with a knife! I was sad when justice wasn't served - we even had ideas who it was. I am not talking without the experience of being burgled.

Maybe they can get some sort of law that the criminal loses ALL RIGHTS once they enter your home illegally...

Well . . . It would help but I guess vigilante killing can backfire on society quite easily.

How many shootings have there been in England since they are not allowed to have guns?

There have been a few cases (the Birmingham drive-by shooting is probably the most recent this past year), Michael Ryan in Hungerford almost 20 years ago and the Dunblane murders in the last five years. I'm sure there have been more but it should be noted that when these incidents occur, they are considered very rare.

The country  ISN'T the same size of the US where everyone watches for each other and can run off with property and spendables as easily and not be found or caught....

I agree that the UK is not the same size as US (it's not big enough to be the equivalent of a state). I'm not sure what you are trying to say in your statement though, saver.

How about that BIGGEST robbery in Ireland yesterday??? Any security cameras in play??
Hope they catch the theives and give them what for!!!


http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2004/12/22/Irish-Robbery.041222.html

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Bobby on 12/22/04 at 9:25 pm


The IRA?


Stands for Irish Republican Army. I think the terrorism started when the British wouldn't give Northern Ireland back to Ireland (Northern Ireland is still part of the UK), something to do with fishing rights I think. As a result, the terrorist army has been blowing things up and killing people for their cause to free Ireland from the UK.

In 1997, it called a ceasefire. Sinn Fein is the political party in Ireland that is closely affiliated with the IRA.

That right, Philbo?

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: GWBush2004 on 12/23/04 at 12:18 am


I agree that the UK is not the same size as US (it's not big enough to be the equivalent of a state). I'm not sure what you are trying to say in your statement though, saver.





Yes it is.  We in America have Rhode Island, Massachusetts, Delaware, Maryland, the District of Columbia, and all those other small New England states.  Let England join America, and set up a Bush-Blair co-presidency.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/23/04 at 1:55 am


Yes it is.  We in America have Rhode Island, Massachusetts, Delaware, Maryland, the District of Columbia, and all those other small New England states.  Let England join America, and set up a Bush-Blair co-presidency.

The whole of Great Britain is about the size of New England and New York state together.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Bobby on 12/23/04 at 6:00 am


The whole of Great Britain is about the size of New England and New York state together.


In which case I had accidentally made an error.  :)

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Bobby on 12/23/04 at 6:10 am


Let England join America, and set up a Bush-Blair co-presidency.


I'm not too sure . . .  ;D

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: saver on 12/23/04 at 4:23 pm

Well, not being desparaging, just comparing the area a crook has to get away with something here is sometimes like trying to find an ant in a cave.

Happy holidays to all....be safe.

(Oh, they are thinking the Irish heist was a well organized group of 12 who wouldn't rat on each other if one were to be caught)..some teamwork there!

BUT keep an eye out if you see any of your Irish friends driving a new fancy car this holiday.


:D

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: philbo on 12/23/04 at 7:40 pm


The IRA?

Yes - Bobby's right, it's the Irish Republican Army - the main terrorist outfit in the UK & Ireland over the past few dozen years.  IMO possibly the best thing that Clinton did as president was to point out to the Irish-American community that they were funding the main proponents of terror in Europe to the tune of millions a year and ban Noraid, the organization that raised the cash.


Stands for Irish Republican Army. I think the terrorism started when the British wouldn't give Northern Ireland back to Ireland (Northern Ireland is still part of the UK), something to do with fishing rights I think. As a result, the terrorist army has been blowing things up and killing people for their cause to free Ireland from the UK.

In 1997, it called a ceasefire. Sinn Fein is the political party in Ireland that is closely affiliated with the IRA.

That right, Philbo?

Northern Ireland didn't want to become part of a united Ireland, and still doesn't.  The IRA was originally fighting for Irish independence, and got it for most of Ireland - apart from the bits that didn't want to be Irish.

Even though there's a ceasefire, the IRA is still a major force to be reckoned with in NI: even if it wasn't them that carried out the robbery, it's very likely that they'd have known about it beforehand.

Sinn Fein is (unofficially) the political wing of the IRA - and now that there's a ceasefire, the money flowing in from the States makes them pretty much the richest political party in the UK and Ireland: there was a bill through parliament a few years ago which stated that political parties weren't allowed to be funded from outside the UK, but made an exception for Sinn Fein 'cause they thought that otherwise it'd scupper the peace process.  Pah.

Latest news about the robbery: about £12m of the cash stolen was in brand new notes with consecutive serial numbers... so they're not going to be able to shift that on a large scale at all.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Bobby on 12/24/04 at 4:35 pm

Happy holidays to all....be safe.

Indeed Saver, happy holidays to you and everyone here.

(Oh, they are thinking the Irish heist was a well organized group of 12 who wouldn't rat on each other if one were to be caught)..some teamwork there!

BUT keep an eye out if you see any of your Irish friends driving a new fancy car this holiday.


;D

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Alchoholica on 01/07/05 at 11:02 am


The whole of Great Britain is about the size of New England and New York state together.


errr... the whole of great britian.. like N.Ireland, Scotland, Wales & England is actually a bit smaller than that lol.. New England & NYS are about 1.5x the size of great britain of not more

we are teeny weeny.. the whole of GBR would fit in to Missouri

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 01/07/05 at 11:10 am


errr... the whole of great britian.. like N.Ireland, Scotland, Wales & England is actually a bit smaller than that lol.. New England & NYS are about 1.5x the size of great britain of not more

we are teeny weeny.. the whole of GBR would fit in to Missouri

It seemed bigger when I was there, probably because it's so densely populated and there's so much culture throughout.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Alchoholica on 01/07/05 at 12:07 pm

Yeah lots of culture.. although im sure you did the typical tourist thing.. London, Oxford & Cambridge.. and for the adventurous Edingburgh.. or did you go all out and see some of the real country lol.

Yeah we are toooooo over populated.. heaven only knows what can be done about it

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: GWBush2004 on 01/07/05 at 12:30 pm

Personally I would choose Ireland over England.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Alchoholica on 01/07/05 at 12:35 pm

and why exactly would you do that?

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: GWBush2004 on 01/08/05 at 8:11 am


and why exactly would you do that?


I like the old-style look of Ireland, plus I prefer rural areas.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Alchoholica on 01/08/05 at 10:34 am

Ireland has a lot of Liberal free thinking people... i can see your point though.. Ireland is a lovely place, so laid back. Even Dublin the capital and biggest city is just slow and thought provoking.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: GWBush2004 on 01/08/05 at 1:36 pm


Ireland has a lot of Liberal free thinking people... i can see your point though.. Ireland is a lovely place, so laid back. Even Dublin the capital and biggest city is just slow and thought provoking.


That is what I was looking for.  Ireland has that laid back feel to it, that old world charm that most people love.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 01/08/05 at 2:48 pm


Yeah lots of culture.. although im sure you did the typical tourist thing.. London, Oxford & Cambridge.. and for the adventurous Edingburgh.. or did you go all out and see some of the real country lol.

Yeah we are toooooo over populated.. heaven only knows what can be done about it

I did some typical tourist stuff, such as Parliament and Stonehenge.  I also went to some "real country" areas, such as the Orkney Islands and the coast of Wales.  I had a Brit Rail pass, so getting around was pretty easy.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Alchoholica on 01/08/05 at 3:13 pm


I did some typical tourist stuff, such as Parliament and Stonehenge. I also went to some "real country" areas, such as the Orkney Islands and the coast of Wales. I had a Brit Rail pass, so getting around was pretty easy.


Ah you experienced the sheer joy of British Rail.. bravo.. did you dare venture in to the primordial ooze that is the midlands?


That is what I was looking for. Ireland has that laid back feel to it, that old world charm that most people love.


Indeed it does.. the people are very friendly or so most people find.. and of course they love American tourists.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 01/08/05 at 4:17 pm


Ah you experienced the sheer joy of British Rail.. bravo.. did you dare venture in to the primordial ooze that is the midlands?



Does Manchester count?

I passed through Birmingham and Coventry on the way to and fro, but didn't stay.  I was on a shoe-string budget, youth hosteling in my youth. 
I did spend the summer solstice in Kirkwall, which was interesting.  Must be a cheery place in winter.  I would have gone to the Shetlands, too, but I couldn't work the ferry fare into the budget.
:(
I found as I went north the food got worse but the people got nicer.  I found the people of Edinburgh a friendly lot (at least the ones who weren't sitting on street corners drunk and delirious) but gray lasagna--not so good.  I didn't try any of the native sheep intestine dishes because I couldn't afford the risk of holing up for a few days with the trots.
Anyway, I met a lot of cold and snotty people in Brighton, especially the hostel-keeper and his wife.  The two of them have probably been murdered by American tourists by now.
:o

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Alchoholica on 01/08/05 at 4:39 pm

Indeed.. it is true that as you go North people will be friendly..  dunno about scotland.. never been a fan to be honest.

Yes there are many snooty ass individuals.. and hopefully yes they have been murderd by a 600Lb couple who were shouted at for not eating there blood pudding.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 01/08/05 at 4:45 pm


Indeed.. it is true that as you go North people will be friendly..  dunno about scotland.. never been a fan to be honest.

Yes there are many snooty a** individuals.. and hopefully yes they have been murderd by a 600Lb couple who were shouted at for not eating there blood pudding.

600 lbs together or 600 lbs a piece?  We've got plenty of both over here.  There are a lot of enormous Polish people around my region who just love their blood sausage, so blood pudding would be almost home.  The only thing they'd complain about is the serving portion...there's no such thing as "enough."
:P

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Alchoholica on 01/08/05 at 4:49 pm

You got that right.. there is never such thing as enough.. i remember taking a friend with me on a visit to the states.... we went to i think lone start steaks.. and he about dropped to his knees and cried when he saw the steak they bought out. In england we are conditioned to think.. ooh musnt be greedy. Greed is good!

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 01/08/05 at 5:01 pm


You got that right.. there is never such thing as enough.. i remember taking a friend with me on a visit to the states.... we went to i think lone start steaks.. and he about dropped to his knees and cried when he saw the steak they bought out. In england we are conditioned to think.. ooh musnt be greedy. Greed is good!

"Mustn't be greedy," what kind of heathen bullcrap is that?  I'm tellin' ma!
Yeah, whenever I go out to one of those second rate steak houses, I usually hear from the waitress, "You still workin' on that," after I've taken that last forkful to push me into a late night heartburn jag.  Meanwhile the truckers in the next booth already went back for thirds!
::)

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Alchoholica on 01/08/05 at 5:05 pm

ah yes the last forkfull.. the Mount Everest of the plate.

I managed to get a free birthday cake at Lone Star... they have this thing where if it's your birthday they will sing there song and what not.. anyway i piped up in my thickest Midlands accent.. "Eya love, it's my burfday n all like."

In all honesty it had been my birthday like 2 days before.. and considering time differences and what not i think i was only stretching the truth a little bit  ;D

That's my ambition to be the guy who can go for thirds...

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 01/08/05 at 5:27 pm


ah yes the last forkfull.. the Mount Everest of the plate.

I managed to get a free birthday cake at Lone Star... they have this thing where if it's your birthday they will sing there song and what not.. anyway i piped up in my thickest Midlands accent.. "Eya love, it's my burfday n all like."

In all honesty it had been my birthday like 2 days before.. and considering time differences and what not i think i was only stretching the truth a little bit  ;D

That's my ambition to be the guy who can go for thirds...

Oh, those places where the staff comes out and sings to you if it's your birthday?  I'd hate that!  I wouldn't let anyone take me on my birthday where they sing to people on their birthdays--free cake or no!  It's bad enough having your friends and family sing that godawful Birthday song to you, let alone strange restaurant workers! 

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Alchoholica on 01/08/05 at 5:43 pm

Oh you old misery.. secretly you want everyone to sing to you dontcha  ;)

It's funny... it's like i am the master of puppets.. sing my pretty's sing!

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Tony20fan4ever on 01/08/05 at 8:13 pm


Yeah our Laws are ridiculous.

You may read this and think.. oh GW is exaggerating (Or rather the article is).. however it is pretty much 100% accurate.

Basically imagine this...

A man breaks in to my home.. he has a gun.. and.. i dunno a grenade.. lol. Anyhow.. i can't hit him.. if he has the gun pointed in my face and turns around i can't disarm him.. if he is standing at the top of the stairs and is shooting at my dog or something.. i can't push him down the stairs.

Basically these are my options..

1) Play dead ::)
2) Say.. yes please mr robber.. take all the stuff.. would you like something to eat?
3) Run!

There is another option.. but i won't discuss that here.. bit dodgy.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Tony20fan4ever on 01/08/05 at 8:20 pm

The unlucky two-bit criminal who tried to rob me would get a Dustbuster floor vac upsides his head before he could even THINK of reaching for his 'piece'(gun)...and a nice long COMA for his troubles...that is if my cat,Tika,did not scare him off and claw his head open in several places.....yes she's very protective of my roommate and I!

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Alchoholica on 01/08/05 at 8:23 pm

Ha Ha you can picture it can't you.. all the real Hardcore Criminals.. yeah i got busted with a baseball bat.. oh i got shot.. yeah man i got hit with a 2x4... well some sucka hit me with a vacuum LOL... It would add insult to injury...if you knocked them out i bet you could get some compromising polaroids as well  ;D ;)

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Tony20fan4ever on 01/08/05 at 10:27 pm


Ha Ha you can picture it can't you.. all the real Hardcore Criminals.. yeah i got busted with a baseball bat.. oh i got shot.. yeah man i got hit with a 2x4... well some sucka hit me with a vacuum LOL... It would add insult to injury...if you knocked them out i bet you could get some compromising polaroids as well ;D ;)
LMAOROFL!!

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: saver on 01/11/05 at 7:36 pm

Bumper sticker recently seen:

Stop Crime, Shoot Back!

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 01/11/05 at 11:52 pm


Bumper sticker recently seen:

Stop Crime, Shoot Back!

But then if you are kind of marksman, you'd have to peel off:
"My Assault Rifle: 0
Ted Kennedy's Car: 1"
::) :P

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: karen on 01/12/05 at 11:19 am


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4167865.stm

Here's the latest on the 'reasonable force' law.  The Tories were campaigning for a change in the wording to exclude grossly excessive force.  However it has been decided to keep the current wording and have a publicity campaign about what you can and can't do.

Do you reckon we'll have that little boy and his cat, Charlie, telling us what to do when someone breaks into your house? (for those old enough to remember them)

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: goodsin on 01/13/05 at 10:55 am


Do you reckon we'll have that little boy and his cat, Charlie, telling us what to do when someone breaks into your house? (for those old enough to remember them)

Mrrowrrrowwwrrowwwrrroooowwrrr! Charlie says "Shoot the MF"! And I agree. I had a spate of break-ins about 5 years ago, by a mentally-ill guy who lived in the flat downstairs. I reported this to the police twice, who visited the property once but didn't really take any action, mainly because the guy didn't appear to be stealing anything (he was actually stealing my cannabis stash, but I couldn't really tell the police that!). I bought a CO2 powered ball bearing mini-gun (like a modern Gatling gun, a machine gun with 6 rotating barrels), loaded it up with 1,000 steel ball bearings & mounted it at the top of the staircase, so anyone breaking in would be directly in the line of fire. I never got to test it, because the mental guy's next action was to report my drug use to the police, who subsequently performed a raid- I got asked loads of questions as to why I had this gun, and I told the truth, that it was for my protection; they did seize the gun, but said they would not charge me for having it as (a) I had already reported the previous break-in incidents, and (b) the burglar was known to police as someone who had commited aggravated burglaries in the past, i.e. used violence when breaking into other people's houses. I ended up taking the drug rap, but no charges were bought for the gun; I'm sure if I'd have been firmer, they would even have given it me back.

I'd feel a lot more comfortable if the law in the UK was more like the US on this matter. I would take the strongest action available to me, were anyone to break into my property whilst I was present. This would go as far as taking someone's life, if I thought my family were in danger of injury or death. I know this is contrary to our law, but it shouldn't be. I'm not the sort of person who would normally commit any violent act, but when it comes to protecting one's home, if a threat has been firmly established, I feel you should be able to defend yourself & family 'by whatever means necessary'~ if that means there's one less scumbag on the planet, that's fine by me, but I don't see why I should be punished for someone else's deficiency in their sense of 'meum et tuum'.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: GWBush2004 on 01/13/05 at 11:02 am

Once they are in your house illegally, they no longer have any rights.  Blow their brains out, see how many people they rob after that.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Alchoholica on 01/13/05 at 11:27 am

Face it.. anybody breaking and entering isn't going to be much of a contributer to society.. your doing everyone a favour by eliminating them.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 01/13/05 at 11:39 am


Face it.. anybody breaking and entering isn't going to be much of a contributer to society.. your doing everyone a favour by eliminating them.

Uh, GWB just might agree with that...irony not included!
  ::)

"Little Jack Horner sat in a corner eating pumpkin pie, stuck in his thumb, pulled out a gun, said "Back off, Mother****er or die!"

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Alchoholica on 01/13/05 at 11:43 am


"Little Jack Horner sat in a corner eating pumpkin pie, stuck in his thumb, pulled out a gun, said "Back off, Mother****er or die!"


Somebody came near my pumpkin pie.. i don't think i'd even warn em  ;)

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 01/13/05 at 12:03 pm


Somebody came near my pumpkin pie.. i don't think i'd even warn em  ;)

I thought of that one on a particularly bitter xmas.  Never had a use for it.  It's not as good as Andrew Dice Clay's take on Little Jack Horner, which is not suitable for this board!

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: GWBush2004 on 01/13/05 at 12:53 pm


Uh, GWB just might agree with that...


Dam* right I do.

Subject: Re: Burglars have rights too, says UK Attorney General.

Written By: Tony20fan4ever on 01/14/05 at 9:12 pm

about ten years ago I had a VCR stolen,it was never found.....I hope it ate all the perp's wedding,vacation,birthday,new baby tapes,all their movies and tapes of favorite sitcoms and dramas,as well as a few movie rentals.....serves 'em right!


God help anyone who even THINKS of stealing my Compaq Presario......!

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