Islam is such a beautiful religion.  Where can I sign up?  ::)
Stand in Line, Buddy :D

The growing boy was probably simply hungry.  Eighty-five lashes!!!  Come on!!!  And they keep blabbering  that Islam is technically "supposed" to be a compassionate religion.  Damn Iranian government.

Islam is such a beautiful religion.  Where can I sign up?  ::)

i think everyone here probably agrees that that is terrible... and so would most muslims

   Tragic, the boy dying.  Remember the "let's introduce corporal punishment into the US justice system" insanity in the early 90's after the infamous caning of Michael Fay in Singapore?  I couldn't believe that one...

   The pic used for the above article, by the way, is from February 2001 in Iran and shows one of two brothers (teenagers, perhaps) being publicly flogged for consuming alcoholic beverages and having illicit sex.  One brother, Majid, received 179 lashes and the other, Rahimi, 180.  Both survived, I think...

The American Right thinks corporal punishment is way cool when it's done in Singapore (or Alabama), but when Muslims get out the lash, it's an example of a vile religion.

I think corporal punishment is barberous on any corner of the globe--and, yes, the Muslims are particularly horrible about it.

Well, I hope those leaders feel proud of themselves for doing their duty!

   Tragic, the boy dying.  Remember the "let's introduce corporal punishment into the US justice system" insanity in the early 90's after the infamous caning of Michael Fay in Singapore?  I couldn't believe that one...


Uh... there is a big difference between 18-year-old Michael Fay who, as I recall, deliberately vandalized numerous cars in Singapore over an extended 10-day period, and theft (sentence: 6 lashes with a cane), and some 14-year-old kid who grabs a burger because he is hungry (sentence: 85 lashes with a whip).

Uh... there is a big difference between 18-year-old Michael Fay who, as I recall, deliberately vandalized numerous cars in Singapore over an extended 10-day period, and theft (sentence: 6 lashes with a cane), and some 14-year-old kid who grabs a burger because he is hungry (sentence: 85 lashes with a whip).

Don't forget our friends the Saudis routinely thrash people to death.

Don't forget our friends the Saudis routinely thrash people to death.


It is one heck of a deterrent to theft.  ???  Get caught stealing in Saudi Arabia and you likely will get your hand whacked off at the wrist.  Typically your right hand, which will make you an outcast because Muslims consider the left hand (which is reserved for, *ahem*, personal hygeine), as "dirty".

It is one heck of a deterrent to theft.   ???  Get caught stealing in Saudi Arabia and you likely will get your hand whacked off at the wrist.  Typically your right hand, which will make you an outcast because Muslims consider the left hand (which is reserved for, *ahem*, personal hygeine), as "dirty".

R-U serious?  That's exactly what I was saying.  Our government makes aggressive overtures to Iran and immediately stories of their brutality pop up.  However, the common knowledg that Bush pals, the Saudis, mutilate their people for minor crimes is met with a facetious wink.  Selective outrage, that's what it is.

Would you want the severing of hands to be the punishment for theft in your state?  Of course not.  Again, our government tells us we shouldn't view the brutality of the Saddam Hussein regime as an inherent part of Iraqi culture, but says nothing of the kind regarding Saudi savageness.

Uh... there is a big difference between 18-year-old Michael Fay who, as I recall, deliberately vandalized numerous cars in Singapore over an extended 10-day period, and theft (sentence: 6 lashes with a cane), and some 14-year-old kid who grabs a burger because he is hungry (sentence: 85 lashes with a whip).


   Oh yeah, no arguement, here...big difference, though I'm not sure where you're going with this...

   Are you advocating judicial corporal punishment as a penalty for minor offences?


   Edited: added the word "judicial"...



   

   

   

 

   Oh yeah, no arguement, here...big difference, though I'm not sure where you're going with this...

   Are you advocating judicial corporal punishment as a penalty for minor offences?


   Edited: added the word "judicial"...
 


No, I'm not really advocating it.  But the Michael Fay incident was brought up in comparison to the Iranian situation, so I thought I would add some enlightening information.

I really don't have a problem with the Fay caning... You go to somebody else's country and you had better be prepared to take the punishment they dish out for the crime you committed (Fay pled guilty and never claimed to have involuntarily confessed, by the way).  When in Rome...

As for the Saudis who will whack off your hand if you get caught stealing, again I have no problem.  The conviction happens as part of legal due process.  If the Saudis want to effect that type of punishment, who am I to criticize?  That is why I live in a different country with a different set of laws.

Would it be more civilized to send the Saudi robber to an American prison where he will be trained in the ways of crime, addicted to drugs, beaten by fellow inmates, and sodomized on a regular basis?  Your average Saudi would probably prefer to lose the hand instead.

As Beretta would say, "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time... And keep your eye on the sparrow."

The American Right thinks corporal punishment is way cool when it's done in Singapore (or Alabama), but when Muslims get out the lash, it's an example of a vile religion.


There is a large difference there Max.

In SIngapore, it is handled by the national Legal System.  It follows a written code, and has an appeal process.  And when it is performed, it is done carefully with medical care given afterwards.  It is also carried out in private, with no spectators.

This is a far cry from a street judge giving out whatever punishment he feels, then has it done in a public setting.

Michael Fay got 6 lashes from a cane.  And this is for vandalism and theft, a much lesser offense I would say then breaking a fast.  Compare what happened to this report on what happened to Mr. Fay:

Soon after his lawyers left him, Michael Fay was informed that his caning sentence was to be carried out that afternoon. He was one of ten prisoners flogged that day. In the caning room he was stripped naked. He bent over and his arms and legs were fastened to an H-shaped trestle by straps. A protective covering was placed over his kidneys. A prison official, a medical officer and the caner were the only ones present. The caner wound up and, using his full body weight, struck with the 13mm-thick rattan rod, which had been soaked overnight to prevent it from splitting. Each stroke on Fay's exposed buttocks came about half a minute apart. It was over in minutes. After the fourth and final stroke, say Singapore officials, Fay shook hands with his caner and insisted on walking back to his cell unaided. He wanted to act like a man.


Here is where you can read the entire transcript:  http://www.corpun.com/awfay9405.htm

This is a far cry from 85 lashes in the street.

And for the comparison with Saudi Arabia, once again there it is a WRITTEN legal code, and everybody is aware of the punishment when they commit a crime.  I doubt that in Iran, it is written "If you break a fast, you will be lashed 85 times".

No, I'm not really advocating it.  But the Michael Fay incident was brought up in comparison to the Iranian situation, so I thought I would add some enlightening information.



  Oh, uh...my mention of the Fay torturing was merely a sidenote and not a camparison.  I should have indicated as such...

  It's a moot point.  There's really no comparison in my view since I find the infliction of torture on any human or animal, for any reason and in any circumstance, abhorrent, disgusting and morally repugnant across the board...but I digress...



I really don't have a problem with the Fay caning... You go to somebody else's country and you had better be prepared to take the punishment they dish out for the crime you committed (Fay pled guilty and never claimed to have involuntarily confessed, by the way).  When in Rome...

As for the Saudis who will whack off your hand if you get caught stealing, again I have no problem.  The conviction happens as part of legal due process.  If the Saudis want to effect that type of punishment, who am I to criticize?  That is why I live in a different country with a different set of laws.

Would it be more civilized to send the Saudi robber to an American prison where he will be trained in the ways of crime, addicted to drugs, beaten by fellow inmates, and sodomized on a regular basis?  Your average Saudi would probably prefer to lose the hand instead.

As Beretta would say, "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time... And keep your eye on the sparrow."




  Yes.  An informed person traveling or living abroad would do well to familiarize themselves with the local laws and customs. It just makes good sense...

  And so then, you disagree with GW concerning the circumstances of the boy's death?  I get the impression he thinks it's unjust.

  Given just this case and with no knowledge of Isamic law (Sharia?) (read: no bleeding heart soapbox) I'd suggest that someone be held responsible for death of the boy.  Or is the risk of death under the lash taken into consideration..?

  Yeah, I know...



Edit: those nagging typos...

The death was certainly tragic, and I do oppose corporal punishment.  I see a broader issue here though, which I'm surprised no one has mentioned.  Theocracies tend to practice these archaic forms of punishment because they are typically specified in holy books, and not just the Koran.  If Christian FUNDAMENTALISTS get there way, we will see similar atrocities here. 

I'm also troubled by what I will call a certain "moral blind spot".  Cat and I spent some time over the weekend with my daughter and grand daughter (15 months old).  When we got home yesterday I watched the finale of M-A-S-H, where a Korean refugee soffocates her own baby, driving Hawkeye nuts.  I'm getting at the horror of war.  You all make a great outcry at the death of 1 14 year old, yet no one has questioned the killing of an estimated 100,000 Iraqi civilians, mostly women and kids.  Why is it that one death is more of a tragedy than the death of 100,000?  Why are Christian FUNDAMENTALISTS not outraged at the continuing violation of most of the 10 commandments by our government and therefore in our name? 

If only this boy's faith and personal relationship with God had been protected by full separation of church and state, this would have been none of the courts' business -- the boy's moment of weakness and subsequent failure to successfully complete his observance of faith would have been between the boy (perhaps guided or councelled by his clergy) and God.  

If only this boy's faith and personal relationship with God had been protected by full separation of church and state, this would have been none of the courts' business -- the boy's moment of weakness and subsequent failure to successfully complete his observance of faith would have been between the boy (perhaps guided or councelled by his clergy) and God.  




I was raised Catholic, and often did penance for my many sins, but I'm 100-% confident that if a priest had imposed flogging as a punishment, I would have told him where  to go and there wouldn't have been think one he could have done about it.  But when you mingle church and state, that becomes another story.

Written or unwritten, I thinks it's all pretty vile, here or there.

The death was certainly tragic, and I do oppose corporal punishment.  I see a broader issue here though, which I'm surprised no one has mentioned.  Theocracies tend to practice these archaic forms of punishment because they are typically specified in holy books, and not just the Koran.  If Christian FUNDAMENTALISTS get there way, we will see similar atrocities here. 

I'm also troubled by what I will call a certain "moral blind spot".  Cat and I spent some time over the weekend with my daughter and grand daughter (15 months old).  When we got home yesterday I watched the finale of M-A-S-H, where a Korean refugee soffocates her own baby, driving Hawkeye nuts.  I'm getting at the horror of war.  You all make a great outcry at the death of 1 14 year old, yet no one has questioned the killing of an estimated 100,000 Iraqi civilians, mostly women and kids.  Why is it that one death is more of a tragedy than the death of 100,000?  Why are Christian FUNDAMENTALISTS not outraged at the continuing violation of most of the 10 commandments by our government and therefore in our name? 


If the Iraqi insurgets get their way, you will see plenty of 85-lash punishments for 14-year olds.  You'll also see a return to stoning for adultery and a bullet to the head to men who do not grow those ridiculous-looking beards.

The Iraqi insurgency wants to establish an Islamic state... The same insurgency that has killed most of those 100,000 Iraqi women and kids by basing its operations in populated areas.  Note that Fallujah was invaded and destroyed because Sunni "fundamentalist Moslems" were using it as a terror base and bomb factory, and were running the town like a Taliban oasis.

Now... for MY money... I really do not care.  If the Iraqis want to subjugate themselves, fine by me.  I don't have to live there.  It is an internal matter and it is their problem.  If the average Iraqi lacks either the brains or the gonads to see how poorly they treat each other, they get what thet get.

When the Iraqis stop blowing each other up, I guess we leave... ???

If only this boy's faith and personal relationship with God had been protected by full separation of church and state, this would have been none of the courts' business


But Iran is a Theocracy, the Church IS the state!

And the Fundamentalists want the entire Middle East (not to mention the World) to be the same way.  As LyricBoy pointed out, the insurgents in Iraq want to make that country the same way that Iran is.  And Al-Queda and most of the other terrorist groups want to make Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and all the rest of the Middle East the same way.

And don't forget the paradise on earth that was Afganistan when it was ruled by a theocracy.  They destroyed ancient artworks because it was considered "Pagan".

As far as "Christian Findamentalists" wanting to do the same thing, you should think again.  In this country, some of the most outspoken (and vocal) opponents of Capitol Punishment are the various churches.  SO that kind of speaks out against them wanting to do the same thing there.

Then again, the same groups speak out against Abortion also, so maybe they are just as bad in the eyes of some people.

Abortion

Speaking of abortion, the new ''body count'' is out today. 

American Abortion Counter:

Statistics of Legal American Abortions since 1973
1973

744,600
1974

898,600
1975

1,034,200
1976

1,179,300
1977

1,316,700
1978

1,409,600
1979

1,497,700
1980

1,553,900
1981

1,577,300
1982

1,573,900
1983

1,575,000
1984

1,577,200
1985

1,588,600
1986

1,574,000
1987

1,559,100
1988

1,590,800
1989

1,566,900
1990

1,608,600
1991

1,556,500
1992

1,528,900
1993

1,330,414
1994

1,267,415
1995

1,210,883
1996

1,221,585
1997

1,186,039
1998

884,273
1999

861,789
2000

857,475
2001

850,000*1
2002

850,000*1
2003

850,000*1
2004

Subtotal: 39,881,273

*1 Estimates because there is no data as of 2004

Unreported legal abortion (4%)

1,595,250

Total: 1,595,250

GRAND TOTAL: 41,476,523

--I love you pro-abortion people, you want to allow over a million babies to be killed each year in the US alone, before they take their first breath and call it moral.

Speaking of abortion, the new ''body count'' is out today. 
GRAND TOTAL: 41,476,523

--I love you pro-abortion people, you want to allow over a million babies to be killed each year in the US alone, before they take their first breath and call it moral.



They ought to have a sign out in front of the abortuaries like McDonald's does.

"Billions and Billions served"... 

There is a large difference there Max.

In SIngapore, it is handled by the national Legal System.  It follows a written code, and has an appeal process.  And when it is performed, it is done carefully with medical care given afterwards.  It is also carried out in private, with no spectators.

This is a far cry from a street judge giving out whatever punishment he feels, then has it done in a public setting.

Michael Fay got 6 lashes from a cane.  And this is for vandalism and theft, a much lesser offense I would say then breaking a fast.  Compare what happened to this report on what happened to Mr. Fay:

Soon after his lawyers left him, Michael Fay was informed that his caning sentence was to be carried out that afternoon. He was one of ten prisoners flogged that day. In the caning room he was stripped naked. He bent over and his arms and legs were fastened to an H-shaped trestle by straps. A protective covering was placed over his kidneys. A prison official, a medical officer and the caner were the only ones present. The caner wound up and, using his full body weight, struck with the 13mm-thick rattan rod, which had been soaked overnight to prevent it from splitting. Each stroke on Fay's exposed buttocks came about half a minute apart. It was over in minutes. After the fourth and final stroke, say Singapore officials, Fay shook hands with his caner and insisted on walking back to his cell unaided. He wanted to act like a man.


Here is where you can read the entire transcript:  http://www.corpun.com/awfay9405.htm

This is a far cry from 85 lashes in the street.

And for the comparison with Saudi Arabia, once again there it is a WRITTEN legal code, and everybody is aware of the punishment when they commit a crime.  I doubt that in Iran, it is written "If you break a fast, you will be lashed 85 times".

So you're saying it 99 lashes in the public square is OK as long as the government writes it into the legal code, and the same with the severing of hands?

Speaking of abortion, the new ''body count'' is out today.

http://www.biblehelp.org/baby198.jpg
--I love you pro-abortion people, you want to allow over a million babies to be killed each year in the US alone, before they take their first breath and call it moral.


At the risk of this thread descending into a pro- or anti- abortion slanging match, how many cute little babies like the picture you posted were aborted?  Answer: none.  Zero. Zip.  You're being emotive and irrational.


While I would agree that those abortion levels are really rather high, and having an abortion has psychological ramifications that aren't always obvious to the mother-to-not-be, to suggest that all such abortions be made illegal is not going to sort the problem one iota.  Abortion should not be the birth control method of first resort, but the answer ain't in banning abortion, it's in education.

how many cute little babies like the picture you posted were aborted?  Answer: none.  Zero. Zip.  You're being emotive and irrational.






Exactly how do you know what those aborted babies were going to grow up to look like?

Exactly how do you know what those aborted babies were going to grow up to look like?


   I think philbo meant that the giggling baby in your picture is alive, well and unaborted...

   I mean, if I dig deep enough I may just be able to produce Adolf Hitler and Osama Bin Laden's baby pics, as well...you should see them, too...such cute little buggers...

If the Iraqi insurgets get their way, you will see plenty of 85-lash punishments for 14-year olds.  You'll also see a return to stoning for adultery and a bullet to the head to men who do not grow those ridiculous-looking beards.

The Iraqi insurgency wants to establish an Islamic state... The same insurgency that has killed most of those 100,000 Iraqi women and kids by basing its operations in populated areas.  Note that Fallujah was invaded and destroyed because Sunni "fundamentalist Moslems" were using it as a terror base and bomb factory, and were running the town like a Taliban oasis.




You are absolutely correct, and you may recall that back before the invasion I predicted that a fundamentalist state was on the agenda if we got rid of Saddam.  It is also true that many Iraqis were killed by the insurgents, but the vast majority have been killed by us.  It has been our policies that turned Iraq into a center for terrorists, and that enflamed Iraqi nationalism.  To paraphrase what FDR said about the Somosas in Nicaragua, Saddam was a son-of-a-b..tch, but he was, and could have remained OUR SOB.

Theocracies are always hostile to individual rights and freedoms, that's why I am so alarmed at the assendfancy of the Christian right in this country.  The Bible also calls for stoning adulteresses.

Exactly how do you know what those aborted babies were going to grow up to look like?

Every bit as much as you do.. it's not me who's posting the cutesy pix.  Of those figures, how many "babies" have been aborted?  As I said before: none.  They ain't babies at that point, it's only sentimental, emotive types who insist that "a baby has been killed"

If the Iraqi insurgets get their way, you will see plenty of 85-lash punishments for 14-year olds.  You'll also see a return to stoning for adultery and a bullet to the head to men who do not grow those ridiculous-looking beards.

The Iraqi insurgency wants to establish an Islamic state... The same insurgency that has killed most of those 100,000 Iraqi women and kids by basing its operations in populated areas.  Note that Fallujah was invaded and destroyed because Sunni "fundamentalist Moslems" were using it as a terror base and bomb factory, and were running the town like a Taliban oasis.

Now... for MY money... I really do not care.  If the Iraqis want to subjugate themselves, fine by me.  I don't have to live there.  It is an internal matter and it is their problem.  If the average Iraqi lacks either the brains or the gonads to see how poorly they treat each other, they get what thet get.

When the Iraqis stop blowing each other up, I guess we leave... ???


  Just to address this point...

  In the end this is part of the reason why wars don't seem to work. Consider:

- Oppressed people under criminal regime
- Invasion to liberate good people suffering under criminal regime
- Given their country, the people enact a new criminal regime

  The people of Iran toppled Shah Reza Pahlavi because he was a tyrant. They merely installed a new tyrant.

  The problem is that we cannot continue to force nations to Americanize to any particular extent; if we expect American seeds (e.g. ideological foundation) to grow, we must create a fertile field in which to plant. That means cooperation, economic assistance, educational opportunities, and, above all else, the one thing that seems to lack in Americans of the present day: good faith....

  We can certainly continue to kill people for dishonest reasons, and we can continue to pretend we're doing the world a service. But at some point we will have to answer to the world, and it is upon that consideration that I say we cannot do those things....

Speaking of abortion, the new ''body count'' is out today. 




I'd like to know the sourse of these stats because they don't jive with things I have read, which suggest that abortion rates were down until the Bush recession.  They also suggest that marriage rates and pregnancies were down during the last 4 years.  I'll see if I can find the piece.

   Just to address this point...

   In the end this is part of the reason why wars don't seem to work. Consider:

- Oppressed people under criminal regime
- Invasion to liberate good people suffering under criminal regime
- Given their country, the people enact a new criminal regime

   The people of Iran toppled Shah Reza Pahlavi because he was a tyrant. They merely installed a new tyrant.

   The problem is that we cannot continue to force nations to Americanize to any particular extent; if we expect American seeds (e.g. ideological foundation) to grow, we must create a fertile field in which to plant. That means cooperation, economic assistance, educational opportunities, and, above all else, the one thing that seems to lack in Americans of the present day: good faith....

   We can certainly continue to kill people for dishonest reasons, and we can continue to pretend we're doing the world a service. But at some point we will have to answer to the world, and it is upon that consideration that I say we cannot do those things....


A lesson we should have learned during the cold war, but then, Lil' Georgie doesn't read history (not to mention the news papers).  "My Pet Goat" is more his speed.  And his neocon advisors are so arrogant as to think that we can rule the world.  Things are not looking good folks.

Every bit as much as you do.. it's not me who's posting the cutesy pix.  Of those figures, how many "babies" have been aborted?  As I said before: none.  They ain't babies at that point, it's only sentimental, emotive types who insist that "a baby has been killed"


God there is more talk about the picture of the stupid baby than of the number of abortions done in America since abortion was made legal in America in 1973.  Again, back off the dam* baby picture, I'm sorry I even posted it now, it just came with the statistics.

So you're saying it 99 lashes in the public square is OK as long as the government writes it into the legal code, and the same with the severing of hands?


I will treat these seperately.

As was said before, the removal of the hand is actually part of their culture.  It is taught to them since birth, and nobody can claim that they do not know what will happen.  If I agree with it or not is of no matter.  It is not my religion, it is not my culture.  Having lived overseas myself, I recognize that when I am living in their country, I have to follow their rules.

As for the statement about having it written, there is a lot of other things missing.  There is no appeals process, there is no superior courts (Supreme Court, Court Of Appeals, etc) that can reduce or eliminate sentences.

Basically, the religious courts in Iran are little more then Kangaroo Courts.  I bet that almost nobody is found innocent in their judicial system.  No juries, no written code, no form of appeal, no legislature to change bad laws.  Each "Islamic Judge" is the only power in the court, is the final arbitrator, and answers to nobody.

And while I do support both Capitol Punishment and Corporal Punishment, I am absolutely opposed to torture.  There is a vast difference between 6 lashes on the bottom with a cane, and 85 lashes across the back with a cat-o'nine-tails.  One is an abject lesson, the other is cruelty.  I have read historical documents of people who have died from as little as 20-30 lashes.  I would be amazed if anybody could survive 85 lashes in one session.  And unless the Judge was a complete moron, he had to have known that as well.

As was said before, the removal of the hand is actually part of their culture. It is taught to them since birth, and nobody can claim that they do not know what will happen. If I agree with it or not is of no matter. It is not my religion, it is not my culture. Having lived overseas myself, I recognize that when I am living in their country, I have to follow their rules.
...
Basically, the religious courts in Iran are little more then Kangaroo Courts. I bet that almost nobody is found innocent in their judicial system.

Which is a bugger if you're actually innocent, then... having to go through the rest of your life stigmatised with no appeals process possible which can stick your hand back on again >:(

God there is more talk about the picture of the stupid baby than of the number of abortions done in America since abortion was made legal in America in 1973.  Again, back off the dam* baby picture, I'm sorry I even posted it now, it just came with the statistics.


  Well, yeah...abortions have been performed in America so statistics of those abortions should be well documented in America.  I'm not really suprised at the numbers...there really are a whole bunch of people in this country...

  Point made.  You're anti-abortion.

I support corporal punishment the same as the next guy, but 85 lashes is too much for breaking Ramadan fast. The people that carried out this travesty should be tried for manslaughter, if not murder. 20 lashes would have suffice. Note that Jesus was near death from 39 lashes with a cat o'nine tails. That's about the same (if not worse than) as 85 lashes with a regular bullwhip for a 14-year-old kid. :\'(

I will treat these seperately.

As was said before, the removal of the hand is actually part of their culture.  It is taught to them since birth, and nobody can claim that they do not know what will happen.  If I agree with it or not is of no matter.  It is not my religion, it is not my culture.  Having lived overseas myself, I recognize that when I am living in their country, I have to follow their rules.

As for the statement about having it written, there is a lot of other things missing.  There is no appeals process, there is no superior courts (Supreme Court, Court Of Appeals, etc) that can reduce or eliminate sentences.

Basically, the religious courts in Iran are little more then Kangaroo Courts.  I bet that almost nobody is found innocent in their judicial system.  No juries, no written code, no form of appeal, no legislature to change bad laws.  Each "Islamic Judge" is the only power in the court, is the final arbitrator, and answers to nobody.

And while I do support both Capitol Punishment and Corporal Punishment, I am absolutely opposed to torture.  There is a vast difference between 6 lashes on the bottom with a cane, and 85 lashes across the back with a cat-o'nine-tails.  One is an abject lesson, the other is cruelty.  I have read historical documents of people who have died from as little as 20-30 lashes.  I would be amazed if anybody could survive 85 lashes in one session.  And unless the Judge was a complete moron, he had to have known that as well.

I would distinguish between "culture" and "justice."  For centuries slavery was part of American culture, but we no longer consider it just.  Capital punishment is still part of American culture, and I, as an American, don't agree with it. 
The severing of hands may be part of Saudi culture, but that doesn't mean we have to call it just.  As Philbo points out, if it turns out you got framed for stealing, you can't get your hand back.  That points to the same reason I'm against capital punishment--it is irreversible.  That's the chief reason, but not the only reason, I'm against the death penalty.

I would distinguish between "culture" and "justice."  For centuries slavery was part of American culture, but we no longer consider it just.


Actually, it existed worldwide for eons.  Even the Bible talks about slavery, and how slaves should be treated.  And in the Colonies of N. and S. America, it was largely Indians pressed into slavery that dominated until the mid 1600's, where importation of Africans became the norm.  You even had Europeans sell themselves into slavery in order to come over to the Americas.

And considering that it was never truely widespread or common (even the South called it "Our Peculiar Institution"), it could hardly be called part of our "culture".  The fact that it was already dying by the time of the Civil War attests to that.


Capital punishment is still part of American culture, and I, as an American, don't agree with it. 
The severing of hands may be part of Saudi culture, but that doesn't mean we have to call it just.  As Philbo points out, if it turns out you got framed for stealing, you can't get your hand back.  That points to the same reason I'm against capital punishment--it is irreversible.  That's the chief reason, but not the only reason, I'm against the death penalty.


Capitol punichment has been banned here before.  Before it was reinstituted, a lot more checks and appeal processes were put in place to try and prevent any mistakes in how it is carried out.  That is why it now commonly takes 15+ years before somebody is even executed for their crime.

As I said, the culture is not mine, so I do not feel free commenting on it.  I also think it is barbaric, but it is their law, their culture, their country.  I no more have a right to go and say it is wrong, then they have a right to come here and say we are wrong for things we do (or do not do).

But as has been said before, this is Islamic Law.  Both the Government and the People accept it.  If they did not, you would hear of protests to change these laws.  Throughout history, change comes from the inside.  If the people of Saudi Arabia really wanted these laws changed, they would change.  And if you believe what a lot of people say, they want even more strict Islamic Law in the region.

It is was even more severe in Afganistan before we got involved, and it is what they want to bring to Iraq, Palestine, and the rest of the Middle East.

GRAND TOTAL: 41,476,523

--I love you pro-abortion people, you want to allow over a million babies to be killed each year in the US alone, before they take their first breath and call it moral.


So that's 41,476,523 less people you have to b!tch about paying welfare to.

GRAND TOTAL: 41,476,523

--I love you pro-abortion people, you want to allow over a million babies to be killed each year in the US alone, before they take their first breath and call it moral.


So that's 41,476,523 less people you have to b!tch about paying welfare to.



Don't be a smart aleck!
;)

And considering that it was never truely widespread or common (even the South called it "Our Peculiar Institution"), it could hardly be called part of our "culture".  The fact that it was already dying by the time of the Civil War attests to that.


OH COME ON!  Slavery was most certainly a vital part of ante bellum Southern culture!  "Our peculiar institution" was a euphemism for the dreadful systemic cruelty of agricultural slavery that BUILT the wealth of old Dixie.
Next you're going to tell me the Civil War had nothing to do with slavery, it was just about states' rights.  Yeah, that's exactly what Jefferson Davis and the boys were saying, "Look, we're gonna let our negroes go free in a few years, but we gotta suit up to whup the yankees over these godawful federal tariffs..."
::)

OH COME ON!  Slavery was most certainly a vital part of ante bellum Southern culture!  "Our peculiar institution" was a euphemism for the dreadful systemic cruelty of agricultural slavery that BUILT the wealth of old Dixie.
Next you're going to tell me the Civil War had nothing to do with slavery, it was just about states' rights.  Yeah, that's exactly what Jefferson Davis and the boys were saying, "Look, we're gonna let our negroes go free in a few years, but we gotta suit up to whup the yankees over these godawful federal tariffs..."
::)


What are you talking about?  South Carolina seceded after the election of 1860 because they felt it was wrong that an anti-slavery, pro-northern candidate could win the election without a single southern electoral vote.  Hell, Lincoln wasn't even on the ballot in most southern counties/states.  I'd feel a little ripped off too.  After South Carolina other southern states followed, than old Lincoln decided to force them back into the union at gunpoint, and barley defeated an army about a 1/3rd his size, and ended it with the states' rights dead....and 620,000 people.  A war that ended the life of one out of five southern white men.  Congratulations.

What are you talking about?  South Carolina seceded after the election of 1860 because they felt it was wrong that an anti-slavery, pro-northern candidate could win the election without a single southern electoral vote.  Hell, Lincoln wasn't even on the ballot in most southern counties/states.  I'd feel a little ripped off too.  After South Carolina other southern states followed, than old Lincoln decided to force them back into the union at gunpoint, and barley defeated an army about a 1/3rd his size, and ended it with the states' rights dead....and 620,000 people.  A war that ended the life of one out of five southern white men.  Congratulations.

The yanks should have just let the South go.  Today the Confederate States would be just another backwater banana republic!

I believe every worng action should have an equal responce. I don't see anything wrong with cutting off a hand. Maybe a pinky finger for the first offense and then the hand for the second.

But, only after due process.

I certainly believe in the death penalty. Those who disagree should imagine if their wife, daughter, sister, or mother was raped, and/or killed! I'd love the chance to snuff them with my bare hands.

And those that plea temporary insanity... please... they went crazy once, they could do it again. Kill 'em!

The only ones that should be spared are the retards. They don't know any better. IMHO