http://idisk.mac.com/glwebb-public/new_map.jpg

:D :P

"Jesusland" is a bit simplistic, but it does say something.  I prefer the county-by-county map.  Bush won about 90% of the counties in America.  He may have won many of them by only a sliver.  Some of them may be counties in the boondocks populated by just a few thousand (or a few hundred!) but he won them.

Democrats need a central message and an inspiring message.  They cannot afford to by a collection of special interest constituencies.  They need to talk with enough vigor and cogency to talk "red" America out of the Republican exploitation of religion for political gain and into sensible economic ideas.  I don't think they need to thump the Bible, but the need to talk with conviction about morals and values.

I'm a liberal and I have no problem talking about my morals, my values, and what I believe is right.  You can do that convincingly without getting all Jesused up.

If the Dems don't learn how to talk to the "salt-of-the-earth average American," as the odious Ben Stein called them, they'll never be able to turn any of that "red" into "blue," and God knows they must or this country is going down the toilet in the next generation!

If the Dems don't learn how to talk to the "salt-of-the-earth average American," as the odious Ben Stein called them, they'll never be able to turn any of that "red" into "blue," and God knows they must or this country is going down the toilet in the next generation!
Ben Stein...by you even brining him up....and in a positive way, brings joy to me ;)

:D :P

"Jesusland" is a bit simplistic, but it does say something.  I prefer the county-by-county map.  Bush won about 90% of the counties in America.  He may have won many of them by only a sliver.  Some of them may be counties in the boondocks populated by just a few thousand (or a few hundred!) but he won them.

Democrats need a central message and an inspiring message.  They cannot afford to by a collection of special interest constituencies.  They need to talk with enough vigor and cogency to talk "red" America out of the Republican exploitation of religion for political gain and into sensible economic ideas.  I don't think they need to thump the Bible, but the need to talk with conviction about morals and values.

I'm a liberal and I have no problem talking about my morals, my values, and what I believe is right.  You can do that convincingly without getting all Jesused up.

If the Dems don't learn how to talk to the "salt-of-the-earth average American," as the odious Ben Stein called them, they'll never be able to turn any of that "red" into "blue," and God knows they must or this country is going down the toilet in the next generation!


But how is that done without compromising the values the party already holds, which the party's present members already share? How do you win some without losing others?

I was thinking about posting this but you beat me to it.




Cat

Ithink that the image of the US put out by Hollywood is a problem... I am all for liberal values but one can overegg the pudding..the popular media have gone too far I think in pushing the boundaries of values and taste....it is really not a good idea to push out more and more violent and sexually explicit movies ...

. but then again Arnold Shwarzenegger seems to go down  well .. maybe its just the sex that offends people .. they don't seem to mind watching people being murdered and torured!!!

But how is that done without compromising the values the party already holds, which the party's present members already share? How do you win some without losing others?




But Mc, the core values of the Dems are much more a refection of Christian Values than are those of the Repubs.  I AM my brother's keeper, I do have an obligation to struggle for justice.  Christ's message was one of spititual equality - and if all are equal in the eyes of God, by what right does man sponsor inequality?  As I see it, the Dems could make as reasonable a case for supporting Christian values (if not a more reasonable one) than Bush and his bible thumping cronies.  Take back the bible for progressive values and you take back the country, but I do like the idea of this new map, and I bet this time they would let us all seceed.  I'm writing to the Canadian PM (Chritien ?) with a proposal for annexation, and my guess is that there would be a mass migration from those red states.  We'd have to defend the boarders against all the masses that wanted to join the new northern hemisphere hegemon.

The Canadian PM is Paul Martin, leader of the Liberal Party. This idea of seccession is not ever going to work. Not enough people want that, and it hasn't come to that yet.

The Canadian PM is Paul Martin, leader of the Liberal Party. This idea of seccession is not ever going to work. Not enough people want that, and it hasn't come to that yet.


You are right of course, but it is fun to play with the idea.  Just think of it, the financial center of the world, some of the wealthiest states, some of the best colleges and universities all becoming Canadian.

Our first constitution, the Articles of Confederation, offered Canada the right to join the US, Canada could do the blue states the kindness of a similar offer.  Obviously that is impossible but an interesting concept.

Ben Stein...by you even brining him up....and in a positive way, brings joy to me ;)

Positive? Do you know what the word "odious" means?  In the dictionary there's just a picture of Ben Stein (the lying swine).

:D :P

"Jesusland" is a bit simplistic, but it does say something. 

We're not as dumb as you want to believe.  I suggest you look at the exit polls:

No High School (4%):
Bush-49%
Kerry-50%
Nader-0%

High School Graduate (22%):
Bush-52%
Kerry-47%
Nader-0%

Some College (32%):
Bush-54%
Kerry-46%
Nader-0%

College Graduate (26%):
Bush-52%
Kerry-46%
Nader-1%

Postgrad Study (16%):
Bush-44%
Kerry-55%
Nader-1%

Source: CNN exit polls.  www.cnn.com

President Jimmy Carter was a Democrat and he was in my opinion a REAL Christian.  Jimmy Carter came across like the real deal.  But a lot of these evangelicals and bigoted right wing Christians don't want a real Christian.  They just want someone who will be a loudmouth that goes around telling everyone he's a Christian.  They like a George W. Bush type guy who has to keep telling you over and over again that he has morals and values.  They want someone who is all about show.  Making a fuss over praying before a high school football game or phrases in a pledge or stone tablet does not make you a Christian.  And getting on some stupid right wing redneck talk show and saying you're a Christian because you voted for Bush and go to church every week does not make you a Christian.  For these people it's not really about Christianity as much as it is xenophobia.  They are motivated by a political agenda rather then Christ.

I think the Democrats should say enough is enough and take this bull by the horns and make a head on challenge to these hypocritical right wing evangelical Christians that WE do represent a moral message that is in tune with God.  I'm sick and tired of us Democrats made out to be a bunch of immoral perverts that don't care about human decency.   

President Jimmy Carter was a Democrat and he was in my opinion a REAL Christian.  Jimmy Carter came across like the real deal.  But a lot of these evangelicals and bigoted right wing Christians don't want a real Christian.  They just want someone who will be a loudmouth that goes around telling everyone he's a Christian.  They like a George W. Bush type guy who has to keep telling you over and over again that he has morals and values.  They want someone who is all about show.  Making a fuss over praying before a high school football game or phrases in a pledge or stone tablet does not make you a Christian.  And getting on some stupid right wing redneck talk show and saying you're a Christian because you voted for Bush and go to church every week does not make you a Christian.  For these people it's not really about Christianity as much as it is xenophobia.  They are motivated by a political agenda rather then Christ.

I think the Democrats should say enough is enough and take this bull by the horns and make a head on challenge to these hypocritical right wing evangelical Christians that WE do represent a moral message that is in tune with God.  I'm sick and tired of us Democrats made out to be a bunch of immoral perverts that don't care about human decency.    


I do agree with you. IMO, Bush is NOT a Christian. I wonder just how many Commandments he has broken.

Number 6: "Thou shalt not kill." He may not have done this personally but it was done on his orders-and I am not talking about our so-called "enemies", I am talking about children among others.

Number  8 and 9: Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." "Thou shalt not steal." I think you can figure those out for yourself.

Number 10."Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's."  Maybe they should have included, "Unless that neighbor has oil".

These are the ones that really effect the rest of us. I find it very hyprocritical to say that you are a Christian (or any other religion) yet, you don't practice what you preach.




Cat

I agree, Jimmy Carter is a *real* Christian.  Bush and the right-wing evangelicals worship Mammon the money god draped in a Jesus mask.
The Christo-fascists rely on fear and bigotry.  They care nothing about American children going to bed hungry, but two men going to bed together is of paramount importance.

I agree, Jimmy Carter is a *real* Christian.  Bush and the right-wing evangelicals worship Mammon the money god draped in a Jesus mask.
The Christo-fascists rely on fear and bigotry.  They care nothing about American children going to bed hungry, but two men going to bed together is of paramount importance.


Here, here! These Christians cannot worship the same one I worship. In fact, some people forget that Satan is considered a god as well and can greatly disguise him as a Christian god.

Tanya

But Mc, the core values of the Dems are much more a refection of Christian Values than are those of the Repubs.  I AM my brother's keeper, I do have an obligation to struggle for justice.  Christ's message was one of spititual equality - and if all are equal in the eyes of God, by what right does man sponsor inequality?  As I see it, the Dems could make as reasonable a case for supporting Christian values (if not a more reasonable one) than Bush and his bible thumping cronies.  Take back the bible for progressive values and you take back the country


It's interesting you say that; many of the founders of the socialist movement in Canada in the first half of the twentieth century were devout Christians. They used their religious beliefs to support their policies of sharing society's wealth more equally among its members.

You are right of course, but it is fun to play with the idea.  Just think of it, the financial center of the world, some of the wealthiest states, some of the best colleges and universities all becoming Canadian.




How come every time the left talks of leaving the union they talk about joining Canada?  Can the blue states not survive on their own?  Are those blue states so weak they need to join and suck the resources our of Canada?  It is just like the civil war all over again, we can survive without you, you can't survive without us.  Besides, if you left, we could have: ''America Civil War #2, the south's revenge.''  I think you know where all the military colleges are don't you? 

The Peoples' Republik of Kanada.....has a ring to it, eh?

.  I would venture a guess that a majority of the wealth lies within said "blue states". ??? 


It does, that is why it is funny to hear the democrats pretend to care about the working class.

Jesus.. He's right  :o

Would be interesting, of course, it could never happen, but still. Face it though the south would be screwed, what would it's capital be.. Atlanta?

How come every time the left talks of leaving the union they talk about joining Canada?  Can the blue states not survive on their own?  Are those blue states so weak they need to join and suck the resources our of Canada?  It is just like the civil war all over again, we can survive without you, you can't survive without us.  Besides, if you left, we could have: ''America Civil War #2, the south's revenge.''  I think you know where all the military colleges are don't you? 

The Peoples' Republik of Kanada.....has a ring to it, eh?

This kind of animosity is absurd!  Let's shake our fists over hypotheticals, shall we?
It is worth pointing out that the red states would do much better with their vast resources to quit ruminating the differences between them and the blue states, and start fighting the royal scr*w-over they're getting from corporate America!

It does, that is why it is funny to hear the democrats pretend to care about the working class.


There's a lot of wealth in the Blue States, but there are far more working class citizens who are also, by and large, Democrats. It doesn't stand to reason at all that just because a person is rich, he doesn't care about the working class. It's all based on one's personal values, not the size of one's bank account.

There's a lot of wealth in the Blue States, but there are far more working class citizens who are also, by and large, Democrats. It doesn't stand to reason at all that just because a person is rich, he doesn't care about the working class. It's all based on one's personal values, not the size of one's bank account.


Sure, Ann Coulter and Rich Lowry will claim allegience with the working class, but they both prefer posh Manhattan eateries and wouldn't be caught dead at Red Lobster.  The populism of the Right is so transparently phony I can't believe anyone buys into it.  They try to sell the idea to America that "class" has nothing to do with "income" or "wealth."  Get real!  Then Limbaugh turns around and goes on about liberal "class envy."  Maybe so, Rush, you hypocrite, but at least call it "income envy" or "wealth envy," "class" is lost on you people!  I may have a three digit checking account balance and a beat up old Honda, but I'm an "elitist" according to the Right.  What the....?

''New map of the United States''

Here is a better map:

http://www.yourewelcomeeverybody.com/view_shiz.php?image=a376.gif&auth=071107042911

I do agree with you. IMO, Bush is NOT a Christian. I wonder just how many Commandments he has broken.

Number 6: "Thou shalt not kill." He may not have done this personally but it was done on his orders-and I am not talking about our so-called "enemies", I am talking about children among others.

Number  8 and 9: Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." "Thou shalt not steal." I think you can figure those out for yourself.

Number 10."Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his a**, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's."  Maybe they should have included, "Unless that neighbor has oil".

These are the ones that really effect the rest of us. I find it very hyprocritical to say that you are a Christian (or any other religion) yet, you don't practice what you preach.

Cat


I will not put myself in the position of determining who is or is not a Christian, since that would make me God.  That said, how did the alternative stack up against your criterion commandments?

Number 6:  Kerry freely admits killing with his own hands in 'Nam.  As well, he voted to authorize action in iraq (we may quibble on the details of that... he claims he wanted more negotiations first... but nonetheless his name is on the authorizing bill.

Numbers 8 and 9:  Listen to his campaign rhetoric.  Plenty of false witness bearing going on there.

Number 10:  Thou shalt not covet neighbors stuff.  See my analysis of item 6 re: Iraq.

Number 6:  Kerry freely admits killing with his own hands in 'Nam.  As well, he voted to authorize action in iraq (we may quibble on the details of that... he claims he wanted more negotiations first... but nonetheless his name is on the authorizing bill.




Oh puhhleease!  Atrocities were the order of the day in Vietnam.  Send soldiers into civilian populations to root out a tightly in-woven political party, and you're gonna impose fire, torture, and mass murder.

I will not put myself in the position of determining who is or is not a Christian, since that would make me God. 



Saying you are something does not make it so. Dubya has the knack of saying, "Do as I say, not as I do." That is like someone saying that you are kosher and then eat a ham sandwich. Only to practice basic beliefs when it is convient does not make you what you say you are, IMO, it makes you a hypocrite.



Cat

What's so bad about Canada?  And, why would it necessarily "suck the resources" out of Canada?  Oh, that's right, they're "blue states".  I'd like to see the "red states" 'survive' without the Blue.  I would venture a guess that a majority of the wealth lies within said "blue states". ??? 


I am from Canada.... and ummmmmm.... I like Canada! 

The Peoples' Republik of Kanada.....has a ring to it, eh?

Actually Kanada means "not seen" in the Tamil language.  There is a very wonderful and beautiful 17th century raga called "Raga Kanada," performed and recorded to this day in a few variations.
http://www.sonarupa.co.uk/itm00798.htm

I read somewhere that "Canada" came from an indigenous word "Kanada," meaning "nation" or "home," but I forgot where.

Actually Kanada means "not seen" in the Tamil language.  There is a very wonderful and beautiful 17th century raga called "Raga Kanada," performed and recorded to this day in a few variations.
http://www.sonarupa.co.uk/itm00798.htm

I read somewhere that "Canada" came from an indigenous word "Kanada," meaning "nation" or "home," but I forgot where.


I think (but I am not sure) that "Canada" came from an indigenous word "Kanada," meaning "nation" or "home,"

Kanata, which in Huron (an Iroquoian language of eastern Canada) meant “village.” Jacques Cartier, the early French explorer, picked up the word and used it to refer to the land around his settlement, now part of Quebec City.  By the 18th century it referred to all of New France, which extended from the St. Lawrence River to the Great Lakes and down into what is now the American Midwest. In 1759, the British conquered New France and used the name Quebec for the colony north of the St. Lawrence River, and Canada for the rest of the territory. Eventually, as the territory increased in size and the present arrangement of the provinces developed, Canada applied to all the land north of the United States and east of Alaska.