With the current results it appears that George W. Bush has won the election, and Kerry will concede at 1:00.  The social abuse propagated by the far-right neocon Republicans has persisted long enough!  This is an abomination of American principles!  Time for a second Civil War!!!

I hope it doesn't mean that. A civil war in the US would engulf the planet. What needs to happen is that both sides need to work closer together to solve the problems and allay the fears that made this race so close.

I hope it doesn't mean that. A civil war in the US would engulf the planet. What needs to happen is that both sides need to work closer together to solve the problems and allay the fears that made this race so close.
Well..Bush won by more votes so more people wanted him to win than Kerry. Civil War? How about just BEING Civil ;)

Well..Bush won by more votes so more people wanted him to win than Kerry. Civil War? How about just BEING Civil ;)


He won more votes, but not that many more. When you only win by such a small margin, it's gotta set off alarm bells somewhere.

With the current results it appears that George W. Bush has won the election, and Kerry will concede at 1:00.  The social abuse propagated by the far-right neocon Republicans has persisted long enough!  This is an abomination of American principles!  Time for a second Civil War!!!

If you read what I have just posted on a couple of othe threads, you'll see it is my considered opinion that the past four years were a second Civil War.  This time, the Confederates won.  Sooner or later, the vast majority of red state Americans will realize they hate what they have wrought.  I just hope by then our great democratic experiment hasn't been replaced by the fascist corporate-Christian axis.

If you read what I have just posted on a couple of othe threads, you'll see it is my considered opinion that the past four years were a second Civil War.  This time, the Confederates won.  Sooner or later, the vast majority of red state Americans will realize they hate what they have wrought.  I just hope by then our great democratic experiment hasn't been replaced by the fascist corporate-Christian axis.


Hasn't it already?

Hasn't it already?

As I said before of a few of the Bush supporters on this board, fascism thrives on grassroots support of a majority against a minority.  However, fascism fails when the grassroots realize they are not immune to the oppression their beloved regime unleashed earlier upon the despised minorities.  By that time, the regime has such an iron grip on the population that it cannot be removed from power without a bloody struggle.  I'm not saying we need a coup just yet.  I am saying that I hope the Bushies commit acts even their red state die-hard supporter find intolerable.

Cheney's health makes his candidacy non-viable.  That means the GOP will have to run a non-incumbent in 2008.  With all the sh*t that'll go down between now and then it'll be hard to find a new candidate enough of the people can trust or suffer.

HILLARY '08!

HILLARY '08!


Aww....yes.  I bet she is a happy woman today.  As I have said before, you MAY (if you want) get another shot for John Kerry.  Back in late September a few different blogs came out with these stories and quotes about how John Kerry may run again in 2008 if he loses (or now lost) in 2004.  So if you are a true Kerry fan (which I doubt) you may have another chance.

I must say I loved Kerry's speech.  I also love the way he acted, I have a lot of respect for him believe it or not.  Massachusetts has at least one decent senator.

Aww....yes.  I bet she is a happy woman today.  As I have said before, you MAY (if you want) get another shot for John Kerry.  Back in late September a few different blogs came out with these stories and quotes about how John Kerry may run again in 2008 if he loses (or now lost) in 2004.  So if you are a true Kerry fan (which I doubt) you may have another chance.

I must say I loved Kerry's speech.  I also love the way he acted, I have a lot of respect for him believe it or not.  Massachusetts has at least one decent senator.

Well, he was smart enough not to hold up the concession for a week and a half while officials quibbled over "provisional ballots."  That strategy was dead in the water, and Kerry knew it.  Now,GWB, I find it very amusing how you have steadily badmouthed Kerry for once, but now that he has conceded, you refer to him as "decent."  Shouldn't your "principles" dictate that he's still a rotten SOB, but now a rotten SOB who lost?

He won more votes, but not that many more. When you only win by such a small margin, it's gotta set off alarm bells somewhere.
:oThat's true.I like Bush,but there's very little that i agree with him about.I think the main reason Kerry lost is the concept of changing horses in midstream.Having fought in a war,Kerry is entitled to opinions about it,but I think people were worried about getting him briefed on the insider action,and whether he is really any better at getting info on possible attacks.Kerry seems more interested in the health care issues than Bush.

I must say I loved Kerry's speech.  I also love the way he acted, I have a lot of respect for him believe it or not.  Massachusetts has at least one decent senator.


Which is why I voted for him.  He is a gentleman with brains and a heart.  People kept saying he had a
wooden personality, who cares if  he was doing what he believed to be the right things for the right reasons.  I have to be honest and say a bush lame duck presidency scares the hell out of me.  He has already shown that he does not respect his opponents, and doesn't have any interest in bipartisanship. That with us ar against us attitude is going to turn against even those who supported him. 

   In a way, that's what just happened.  I mean, look at the divide...

   Personally, Kerry was a concession for me and, I suspect, many of Decades' leftists.

   I never had that starry-eyed devotion to my candidate that sycophantic evangelical Republicans do. I'm not naîve enough to think my candidate is all that. I'm not willing to elect my man at all costs, including my integrity.

   Kerry, coming into Decades, would get ripped by our leftists. That is, so long as the conservative simpletons just sat back and enjoyed the show and didn't make a point out of mucking up the discussion with hyperbole and lies.

   It would be interesting to know how many people use the Decades Politics & Religious forum as the primary source of their news...

The Zero Factor.

   In a way, that's what just happened.  I mean, look at the divide...

   Personally, Kerry was a concession for me and, I suspect, many of Decades' leftists.

   I never had that starry-eyed devotion to my candidate that sycophantic evangelical Republicans do. I'm not naîve enough to think my candidate is all that. I'm not willing to elect my man at all costs, including my integrity.

   Kerry, coming into Decades, would get ripped by our leftists. That is, so long as the conservative simpletons just sat back and enjoyed the show and didn't make a point out of mucking up the discussion with hyperbole and lies.

   It would be interesting to know how many people use the Decades Politics & Religious forum as the primary source of their news...


I would be the only candidate I would totally agree with, and as too candidates from the main streem parties, it is always the lesser of the evils.  That said, Kerry was MUCH less evil than Bush.  Osama won this election, and terrorism will increase, mark my words.

I don't know which thread to write this in but I guess this is as good as any. First of all, yes, I will admit that I am drunk (a rarity for me I must say) and I am listening to some songs that some of you may remember, "Eve of Distrustion", "The Flesh Failure" (from Hair), "I'm Fixin' to Die Rag" -Country Joe and the Fish-from Woodstock. And yes, I feel that it is 60s, all over again. I can't believe that people have not learned the lessons of history. It really is a sad day in American History. Trust me. We are heading for bad, bad days. All the achievments that were made in the last 100 years-over-time, Roe vs Wade, safety in the work place, Social Security will all be a memory. I am very scared what the future will bring.




Cat

Kill the civil rhetoric. This country will finally heal in 2008. When something goes down, those same Bush supporters will have to eat there words and deal with their decision. You do know that it's always the South and Midwest that lose the greatest amount of men in the Draft, right?

Tanya

He won more votes, but not that many more. When you only win by such a small margin, it's gotta set off alarm bells somewhere.


W was the first president since Bush the First in 1988 to win more than 50% of the popular vote.  It may be a small margin, but more than half chose Bush, and that in itself is very symbolic.  Whether it is right or not remains to be seen.

I sure as hell wasn't gonna vote for Kerry for the usual reasons :P

Osama won this election, and terrorism will increase, mark my words.


True, dat. And this is a quote from The Sydney Morning Herald today: "International antagonism to US foreign policy had, up until now, centred on the Bush Administration, while sentiment towards the American people was more benign. But Mr Bush's return will entrench opinion against the US as a whole." (Emphasis mine)

W was the first president since Bush the First in 1988 to win more than 50% of the popular vote. 

:) You know Rice, that's really not that significant considering there's only been one other President since then. It's funny how spin doctors use things like this to suggest that the victory is bigger than it is. What was the quote I heard today? Something like, "George W Bush received more votes than any other Republican candidate in history." Well, duh! More people voted this time!

Massachusetts has at least one decent senator.Then I guess all those hate filled comments you've been posting for the last 6 months have been hyperbole??? As I've said before, you definitely have the perfect screen name. What a hypocrite!

I'm not calling for a "Civil War" but I'll be damn if I can forget everything I stand for in the guise of "coming together as a nation". It just floors me that a person's stand on abortion and prayer in school and whether that person is a "born again" Christian means more to the "majority" of Americans than the fact that that person used lies and deceit to invade another nation and take our country to war. WAR!

My Euro History teacher said something that startled me a bit yesterday while we were watching the news in class and found out that Kerry had conceded- "Well, every great empire has fallen."

You know, just had never thought about it in terms of America.

Eh, well, I hope I'll just be able to leave the country before (if) the draft is re-instated O_O.

:) You know Rice, that's really not that significant considering there's only been one other President since then. It's funny how spin doctors use things like this to suggest that the victory is bigger than it is. What was the quote I heard today? Something like, "George W Bush received more votes than any other Republican candidate in history." Well, duh! More people voted this time!


I disagree, since the Democratic version of your personal Jesus, Mr. Clinton, NEVER received 50% of the popular vote in his two elections.  And yes, more people did turn out to vote, and they turned out to vote for W.  It's not a spin, it's a fact.

Pending recounts and legal challenges and the ACLU getting loads of Mylanta to soothe their political constipation, of course.

As an impartial Brit (also one who thinks Bush is a thick as pig shhh) I saw two people both saying they would fight terrorism and win and make America a safe place to be yet neither was actually saying how they they would be doing about it... in all fairness Bush's track record would automatically make me wanna vote Kerry but he is just the lesser of two evils.

If Blair went on a rally like those two did we may get three people and a pigeon turn up... the turn out was phenominal yet no-one actually seemed to be listening!!!!

I was listening to NPR last night when some intellectual was asked if he felt alienated from his country, now that Dubya as been re-elected... He said he didn't feel alienated from his country... just from half of his countrymen. I agree.

I am not going to just forego my beliefs on which direction this country sould be going in, all in the name of bipartisanship. Screw that. This was the most important election in recent history and the good guys lost... and I'm pissed off about it. I feel a 'cold grief' and the aforesaid intellectual noted. I don't even want to look at my own father because he had a hand in what turned out to be one of the worst days of my life thus far, by voting for Bush in FL. I don't want to be around most of the people in my school because I live in a predominantly conservative area, I don't want to have to speak to them. This brand of bitterness is natural, and it isn't easy to get over... especially in the spirit of working alongside the people you can't stand and their leader, the president you have just been sentenced to hating for another four years.

I disagree, since the Democratic version of your personal Jesus, Mr. Clinton, NEVER received 50% of the popular vote in his two elections.  And yes, more people did turn out to vote, and they turned out to vote for W.  It's not a spin, it's a fact.

Pending recounts and legal challenges and the ACLU getting loads of Mylanta to soothe their political constipation, of course.
;D ;)

I was listening to NPR last night when some intellectual was asked if he felt alienated from his country, now that Dubya as been re-elected... He said he didn't feel alienated from his country... just from half of his countrymen. I agree.

I am not going to just forego my beliefs on which direction this country sould be going in, all in the name of bipartisanship. Screw that. This was the most important election in recent history and the good guys lost... and I'm ticked off about it. I feel a 'cold grief' and the aforesaid intellectual noted. I don't even want to look at my own father because he had a hand in what turned out to be one of the worst days of my life thus far, by voting for Bush in FL. I don't want to be around most of the people in my school because I live in a predominantly conservative area, I don't want to have to speak to them. This brand of bitterness is natural, and it isn't easy to get over... especially in the spirit of working alongside the people you can't stand and their leader, the president you have just been sentenced to hating for another four years.

Ohhh, man, McD, the alienation for a leftie in Texas must be insufferable!  I'm feeling completely alienated even up here in old liberal Massachusetts. 
When Bush speaks of bipartisanship, he means all Democrats turning into Zell Miller. 

It is true what that teacher said, "All empires have to fall."  The Romans, the Portugese, the Spanish, the French, the English, it's all very similar.  The greed of the upper class and the merchant class is financed by the lower classes.  The state runs a high debt as the imperialists stretch farther and farther in search of more to conquer.  It may take centuries or merely decades, but eventually an empire gets too big to sustain itself, and collapses.  That's what's happening to America.

Eh, well, I hope I'll just be able to leave the country before (if) the draft is re-instated O_O.


    This is a sentiment I've seen echoed around the board for a while, now...

    Unless I'm mistaken, Canada now extradites U.S. draft dodgers and has since the Vietnam police action ended...

    I'm a veteran, and I think it's very important for anyone contemplating being drafted, or contemplating volunteering for military service, to understand the very limited legal meaning of the words "Conscientious Objector". It's important to understand that one must establish a reputation among loved ones and associates as a CO before butting heads with the US government. Otherwise, without a history as a conscientious objector, there is no legal leverage in the military environment.  So, start now...

 

Yeah, I wouldn't consider going to Canada or Mexico.  I'm a Spanish citizen, and my family and I are planning on moving back to Spain within a year anyway.

He won more votes, but not that many more. When you only win by such a small margin, it's gotta set off alarm bells somewhere.


What the crap?!!  He won by a BIG margin.  This is the first time in a long time that a president's been elected/re-elected by winning over 50% of the votes.  This is not even close to how the last election was.  Don't be alarmed just cuz "your" candidate did not win.  Obviously, more people believe Bush is capable of better leadership than Kerry.  Think about it:  sure, Bush got us into this terrible war and boo-hoo-hoo.  But what did Kerry do? Help us lose Vietnam? WOW! He'd make a TERRIFIC prez!!! And he's got some GREAT ideas for changing the country. You know, like......um....uh.....wait let me thing.......what are they again?

"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.  That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country"
- Hermann Goering, a Nazi Reichmarshal during his Nuremberg war crimes trial in 1946...

Yet another Nazi quote relevant to our country.

What the crap?!!  He won by a BIG margin.  This is the first time in a long time that a president's been elected/re-elected by winning over 50% of the votes.  This is not even close to how the last election was.  Don't be alarmed just cuz "your" candidate did not win.  Obviously, more people believe Bush is capable of better leadership than Kerry.   Think about it:  sure, Bush got us into this terrible war and boo-hoo-hoo.  But what did Kerry do? Help us lose Vietnam? WOW! He'd make a TERRIFIC prez!!! And he's got some GREAT ideas for changing the country. You know, like......um....uh.....wait let me thing.......what are they again?

I agree Bush has a big mandate.  The people voted for fascism and they will get fascism.  Sooner or later they will feel the fascists are cramping their style.  If our Democratic infrastructure still exists, they'll throw the fascists out. 
The Republicans ran on fear of terrorism, a fascist version of Christianity, and the bogus populism of "misplaced class rage" (as my man Thomas Frank puts it). 
The population is getting more and more concentrated on the coasts and the urban centers.  American families cannot survive in more and more of the interior.  You may call the red on the map the bleeding out of economic vitality from a once-powerful great land of farms and factories.  The red state people continue to vote Republican and as they do so, they slash their own wrists and throats.  More red on the map.  The Right responds with more "misplaced class rage," more rancor against "elites," more distriction via values ideology.  The people in the red states rally to the swindle and flock again to the economic butchery of the Right, and the cycle goes on.
The Democrats must fight phony populism with real populism!

I vote not for civil war, but certainly civil dissent.  All this talk about 'building bridges' is either meaningless, disingenuous politicking or staggeringly naive.  People have a lot of fundamentally irreconcilable differences in their visions of a 'just' society.  That's what makes people so deeply, viscerally connected to this election -- it's not just about the economy, or national security -- it's about what people believe at their very core.  (I don't want to use the V word, because it's been so bastardized by the talking heads.)  So, no concessions -- stand up for what you believe, articulate it with respect and civility, and justice will prevail.  Justice, by the way, is neither red nor blue.

I vote not for civil war, but certainly civil dissent.  All this talk about 'building bridges' is either meaningless, disingenuous politicking or staggeringly naive.  People have a lot of fundamentally irreconcilable differences in their visions of a 'just' society.  That's what makes people so deeply, viscerally connected to this election -- it's not just about the economy, or national security -- it's about what people believe at their very core.  (I don't want to use the V word, because it's been so bastardized by the talking heads.)  So, no concessions -- stand up for what you believe, articulate it with respect and civility, and justice will prevail.  Justice, by the way, is neither red nor blue.


I concur.  :)

I didn't realize we LOST Vietnam ??? And, what COULD Kerry do? He wasn't president ::)


Yeah i'll second that one.. guy was wounded in battle on several occasions and busted his ass trying to defend the country, so yeah come on everyone let's make fun of him  ::)

I suppose you think all of the troops in Iraq are doing there best to lose key battles so they can stay there even longer?

I concur.  :)

Me too.  Leo Jay is an OK guy!

I didn't realize we LOST Vietnam ???  And, what COULD Kerry do?  He wasn't president ::)

"We did not lose the Vietnam war!  It was a tie!"
--Otto
A Fish Called Wanda

It is interesting to note that John O'Neill, Swift Boat Jerkburgers for Smear, was in the employ of the Nixon White House all those years ago to badmouth Vietnam Veterans Against the War.

The Communist North Vietnamese took over the South, and succeeded in their goal despite the full might of the US military... I'd call that a win for them. We lost, and instead of so vehemently denying it, we should let it teach us a lesson.

The Communist North Vietnamese took over the South, and succeeded in their goal despite the full might of the US military... I'd call that a win for them. We lost, and instead of so vehemently denying it, we should let it teach us a lesson.


We sent troops into Viet Nam when the French were pulling out.  The French pulled out because
they recognized that after having been in Viet Nam since 1858, they would never stop the people
in there fight for autonomy.  One Hundred years. You would have thought the USA would have
taken the hint.  There is a good movie about the last days of the French in Viet Nam, "Indochine"
highly recommended.  There is also a good documentary about the USA "Hearts and Minds"
do it!