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This is a topic from the Current Politics and Religious Topics forum on inthe00s.
Subject: Faith vrs Reason
Written By: Don Carlos on 10/19/04 at 3:52 pm
My local paper ran what I thought was a perceptive and insightful editorial about the state of politics in the US today. Check it out. I would be especially interested in what our more religiously inclined members have to say.
http://www.rutlandherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041019/NEWS/410190304/1038
O look forward to replies.
Subject: Re: Faith vrs Reason
Written By: Tanya1976 on 10/19/04 at 4:19 pm
This has angered me throughout this campaign. Bush has used his "Christianity" (I'm still seeking the Christ he claims to follow) as a means to make horrific statements and actions. The Christ I know would not take food and the arts out of the mouths of babes and go into illegal wars.
I am hoping that someone with sense (and not cause to talk christianity and not act on his/her faith) will lead soon. I'm sick of politics as a whole now.
Tanya
Subject: Re: Faith vrs Reason
Written By: MaxwellSmart on 10/19/04 at 4:28 pm
Reason, dude. Then faith, never "belief."
;)
Subject: Re: Faith vrs Reason
Written By: CatwomanofV on 10/19/04 at 5:48 pm
It basically sounds like a "cult" following. Look at all the so-called leaders, Jim Jones, Rev. Moon, David Koresh, etc. All of their followers think that they had some kind of "divine inspiration". Of course reason will tell people that these "leaders" are not an "instrument of God" but usually self-serving wackos.
Cat
Subject: Re: Faith vrs Reason
Written By: Indy Gent on 10/19/04 at 5:51 pm
Faith with reason is good. I don't agree with the Iraq policy, nor any of Bush's economic "ideas". But we must channel out target on the terrorist's war.
Subject: Re: Faith vrs Reason
Written By: MooRocca on 10/19/04 at 6:39 pm
For starters:
Jeremiah 14
13 But I said, "Ah, Sovereign LORD , the prophets keep telling them, 'You will not see the sword or suffer famine. Indeed, I will give you lasting peace in this place.' "
14 Then the LORD said to me, "The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds.
15 Therefore, this is what the LORD says about the prophets who are prophesying in my name: I did not send them, yet they are saying, 'No sword or famine will touch this land.' Those same prophets will perish by sword and famine.
Matthew 7:
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matthew 23:
14 Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Therefore you will be punished more severely.
15 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
Subject: Re: Faith vrs Reason
Written By: Davester on 10/19/04 at 6:53 pm
When we stop and think about how seemingly-stupid political arguments can affect how many people it's hard to not see an adoption of faith that borders on the fundamentalist regardless of whether the truth asserted is spiritual/religious or not. It sounds relatively benign to hear the political assertion that the Bush administration did not plan for the occupation phase in Iraq, but when we consider the toll that failure has exacted...
To me the argument is clear: If you botch your job so badly, you're generally fired. Now, this speaks nothing of whether the opponent is the best man for the job; that in and of itself is the result of a non-religious faith structure guiding our political elections. (Consider the 2000 election: Bush v. McCain? Gore v. Bradley? Bush v. Gore? Yes, this is the best the people could come up with. That they chose Bush over McCain is testament enough to the power of the political faith structure.)
Now, nobody's saying the Democrats are linen-white. Far from it. But there is a difference beyond the mere superficial between not understanding the Fourteenth Amendment in all its implications--a common condition in the U.S.--and seeking to obliterate equal protection. There is a difference between Kerry saying he would have invaded Iraq, anyway, and saying Kerry would have done exactly what Bush did in order to build the argument that Kerry has nothing different to offer.
People treat such arguments as fact because of their faith in informational authority. And in politics, that faith is closely-guarded and oft-expressed. The implications are huge. It's one thing to ask the people who have been hurt by our American adventures, another entirely to consider the folks we can't ask because they're dead.
Subject: Re: Faith vrs Reason
Written By: RockandRollFan on 10/19/04 at 8:01 pm
It basically sounds like a "cult" following. Look at all the so-called leaders, Jim Jones, Rev. Moon, David Koresh, etc. All of their followers think that they had some kind of "divine inspiration". Of course reason will tell people that these "leaders" are not an "instrument of God" but usually self-serving wackos.
Cat
Don't you forget the Murderer Joseph Smith and his fellow Mormom leader Brigham Young :P
Subject: Re: Faith vrs Reason
Written By: Don Carlos on 10/21/04 at 2:35 pm
Faith with reason is good.
But faith in what?