That's my take on it in a nutshell.  What do you think?
???

I didn't watch it so....I will probably hear the liberal media Bash Bush and the conservative talk shows praise him :-\\

The bushies won't see it that way.  Questions were asked, Kerry answered, bush skirted.  But
then bush was able to give his little sermon and I heard collection plates being filled by
holy rollers everywhere. ::)

The bushies won't see it that way.  Questions were asked, Kerry answered, bush skirted.  But
then bush was able to give his little sermon and I heard collection plates being filled by
holy rollers everywhere. ::)

I cannot believe the punditry didn't immediately hand victory to Kerry in this one the way they handed victory to Cheney last time.
Bush's smirking, stammering, stumbling, sarcasm, and rudeness coupled with the lies he's been lying for four years and the inane sanctimonious platitudes completed a performance nothing short of disgraceful.
I think the ambivalence I'm seeing in the mainstream media commentary right now demonstrates a conservative, not a liberal, BIAS on their part!
I'm clicking over to C-Span, fuddis!
>:(

I think it's funny how, as long as Bush hasn't made several undeniable fumbles, for him, it's considered a success. The performance standard for Bush is much lower than that of any other president in history, and certainly lower than that of John Kerry. That is pathetic. We don't need a simpleton, a 'Mr. Smith' as the most powerful man on Earth.

That being said, I think Kerry did win, and I think Bush, though he didn't make any catastrophic speaking errors, he was a bit wavered many times, and he did not stay on topic... ever. I felt that Bush was forced to repeat himself over and over (especially in regards to education, even when the respective question had nothing to do with education), simply for lack of any other recourse. He could not defend himself properly from Kerry's accusations. This was Kerry's stronghold and I think he did well, though he could have gone for the jugular, I think he's a better person than that. I heard Kerry offer several compliments to Bush, and never the other way around. I heard Kerry make some promises to the American public that I think he is going to keep, given the opportunity. I think that, certainly in respect to health care, the wealthy and the corporations are really scared of John Kerry because he offers progress. He's the one pointing out that companies are being given more concern than the general public, and he's the one saying that this needs to be stopped, and the companies are scared to death. That's what the Republicans want. They want you to be scared to change, they want to frighten you into submission, and lie to you every step of the way, telling you that you're doing better than you actually are, better than you deserve. That is why most people who are members of the working class wrongly categorise themselves as middle class. It's a shame, and though I know Kerry can't fix everything, he is certainly a big step in the right direction. It is amazing that in 4 short years of Bush control, the American people's social future is on the brink of peril.

Dubya did much better than he did in the first debate but I still think that Kerry did much better. What really got me was when Kerry said that dubya said, "I don't think about him much" refering to bin Laden, and Dubya said, "I never said that." Well, he did. Another bold face lie. I think the media is going (they better) call him on that one. When he was asked if he would like to overturn Roe v Wade, he didn't answer the question. And he seem to repeat himself again (not as much as the first debate).

Kerry on the other hand was strong in his answers, and ANSWERED the questions.



Cat

  I think Bush got bruised. He didn't start well, and apparently the scuttlebutt is that Kerry did quote him accurately about Osama bin Laden. Bush did well on the softer questions, the more personal ones where the sound-bites had fewer syllables of the evening.

  He did turn sort of red when Kerry mentioned Cheney's daughter; I wonder what that's all about. I'm officially disappointed that neither Kerry nor Edwards will look at the marriage issue from the obvious and looming Fourteenth Amendment aspect: Kerry could have sent the President sputtering by demanding an explanation of why the banning of gay marriage is so important as to trash equal protection.

  Bush did well, but gets no points on the soft bigotry of lowered expectations; his answers seemed less genuine--he doesn't seem to shift well between "stump" and "debate". GOP handlers can only smooth out the wrinkles to a certain impressive degree. The rest is on the candidates, and I think Kerry, substantially at least, had stronger thrust, quicker parry, and a certain sense of the delicate in his attempts to skewer Bush. While the president came across as less of a hack--or, perhaps, as less of a wild slasher--than usual, he still seemed clumsy on his feet and surprised by the unwieldy nature of domestic issues.

   I think Bush got bruised. He didn't start well, and apparently the scuttlebutt is that Kerry did quote him accurately about Osama bin Laden. Bush did well on the softer questions, the more personal ones where the sound-bites had fewer syllables of the evening.

   He did turn sort of red when Kerry mentioned Cheney's daughter; I wonder what that's all about. I'm officially disappointed that neither Kerry nor Edwards will look at the marriage issue from the obvious and looming Fourteenth Amendment aspect: Kerry could have sent the President sputtering by demanding an explanation of why the banning of gay marriage is so important as to trash equal protection.

   Bush did well, but gets no points on the soft bigotry of lowered expectations; his answers seemed less genuine--he doesn't seem to shift well between "stump" and "debate". GOP handlers can only smooth out the wrinkles to a certain impressive degree. The rest is on the candidates, and I think Kerry, substantially at least, had stronger thrust, quicker parry, and a certain sense of the delicate in his attempts to skewer Bush. While the president came across as less of a hack--or, perhaps, as less of a wild slasher--than usual, he still seemed clumsy on his feet and surprised by the unwieldy nature of domestic issues.

The fact that the right-wing biased news punditry is up their saying Kerry's remark was "below the belt," and it was a deliberate attempt to "embarrass D-i-c-k Cheney" shows me that for Republicans and Conservatives being gay or lesbian is considereda social stigma, as though a lesbian daughter is something to be embarrassed about.  It is the Republican Party that treats gays like second class citizens and they ought to answer for it.  Kerry was saying, in essence, "Cheney's daughter is lesbian, big deal.  Let's move beyond that."

The fact that the right-wing biased news punditry is up their saying Kerry's remark was "below the belt," and it was a deliberate attempt to "embarrass D-i-c-k Cheney" shows me that for Republicans and Conservatives being gay or lesbian is considereda social stigma, as though a lesbian daughter is something to be embarrassed about.  It is the Republican Party that treats gays like second class citizens and they ought to answer for it.  Kerry was saying, in essence, "Cheney's daughter is lesbian, big deal.  Let's move beyond that."


  Yes, and besides, it's important not to seem too right-leaning in this issue, especially so close to the election. Bush spoke of tolerance while withholding rights (if a paradigm can really be formed out of that seemingly contradictory idea).  The actions of his administration, and indeed his party, speak volumes over the sugar coated half-truths.

Yes, and besides, it's important not to seem too right-leaning in this issue, especially so close to the election. Bush spoke of tolerance while withholding rights (if a paradigm can really be formed out of that seemingly contradictory idea). The actions of his administration, and indeed his party, speak volumes over the sugar coated half-truths.



Indeed. Goebbels-I mean Rove, uses mucho doublespeak. 'compassionate conservatism', 'Homeland security', 'homocide bombings', 'precision strikes', 'axis of evil', 'operation enduring freedom', 'operation iraqi freedom', and so on and so on.

Indeed. Goebbels-I mean Rove, uses mucho doublespeak. 'compassionate conservatism', 'Homeland security', 'homocide bombings', 'precision strikes', 'axis of evil', 'operation enduring freedom', 'operation iraqi freedom', and so on and so on.



You forgot a few, "fuzzy math" "I'm a united not a divider" and of course "nu-ku-lar" (or however it is he pronounces it)



Cat

I watched most of it...it was interesting to hear what both candidates had to say.

You forgot a few, "fuzzy math" "I'm a united not a divider" and of course "nu-ku-lar" (or however it is he pronounces it)



Cat



And don't you forget, its hard work!  ;)

:D

And don't you forget, its hard work!  ;)

:D




http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/uc/20041008/ltt041008.gif


:D :D ;D ;D



Cat

I don't see how anyone could think Bush won or even tied with Kerry on this final debate. :o

Yes I'm surprised to see and hear people say Bush won. I wonder how people can be so delusional and in such denial of the realities we are facing today and about the poor performance and leadership of this administration.

On just a simply superficial level, Kerry looked more presidential, spoke clearly and firmly, directed his responses directly to the camera and the nation, actually answered questions asked him and conducted himself with the proper decorum.

Bush, on the other hand, laughed out loud during some questioning which in my opinion didn't reflect the seriousness I expected from an incumbent who needed to prove himself; he also laughed during some of Kerry's answers. Bush amused himself with wise cracks in where he seemed to be the only one getting the joke. He insulted (between the lines) the state of Massachusetts more than once and brought out the typical label of "liberal" which republicans use as a dirty word under the impression that it will destroy the opposition, which cries of last minute desperation, if you ask me. Never mind the blatant lies and false representation of the current situation in the nation and abroad. Bush bumbled and strayed off topic and would continually bring-up education, even when not the issue of the moment; which of course, is probably the only one positive thing he could credibly peddle and not completely, if I might add. Bush never explained why he short-changed the "no child left behind" program, his one positive contribution to which he repeatedly referred. Bush seemed lost at times in his answers. At times, he also looked like a deer caught in the headlights, so to speak.

Kerry may not have been perfect, no one is. But Kerry is absolutely much, much more attuned to our reality and more reasonable and sensible in his approach to try and help solve the problems that plague us as a nation in general.

I truly believe he can make a great difference. I believe he would do the best in his power to do the best for this nation and its people. He's a good man with good principles, great intelligence and the right attitude and instinct for the presidency. Kerry would do the right thing by all, I am convinced.

Listen, Bush is all wrong for the job. He has proven to be a failure in the presidency. Proven! He had 4 years, 4 years, people. And he blew it!!

It's time to give Kerry his turn to make things right again.

6 more Americans were killed abroad today in this chaotic mess Bush has created. It sickens me to watch the news anymore.

I have actually developed the most negative feelings of my life in the last 4 years of continual tragedy (Bush's war) and economic strife which has affected me personally; the feelings of utter sadness, depression, anxiety and extreme anger.

Kerry will win.

Kerry must win.

Or we will all lose so much more, evermore.

I watched most of it...it was interesting to hear what both candidates had to say.
Yeah..I'll admit that I was actually interested in what BOTH had to say...but I will most likely get picked apart for saying ANYTHING good about Bush while being ignored that I actually listened to Kerry.

As Hairspray pointed out, he insulted Massachusetts, as in "Only a Massachusetts liberal..."  That didn't even come up among the jagoff punditry.  Now, if Kerry had said, "Only a Texas conservative...," there would be howls of protest and tirades about Northeastern elitism.  "Liberal media," yuh right! 
When Bush said "Only a Massachusetts liberal," what he said to me was "your state isn't even in play, so I don't really give a rip about you."

Then there was the time he started in on trial lawyers, and pulled that rhetorical ruse of stopping himself before saying something really insulting, "Oh, never mind," and then he snickered and smirked.

I swear, if Kerry had acted the way Bush had, the media would be all over his @ss calling him "out of touch," "not in command of the issues," and "unpresidential."  However, there beloved Bush has a license to be a jerk, because he's a "man of the people."

How stupid do the television talking heads think we are?

As Hairspray pointed out, he insulted Massachusetts, as in "Only a Massachusetts liberal..."  That didn't even come up among the jagoff punditry.  Now, if Kerry had said, "Only a Texas conservative...," there would be howls of protest and tirades about Northeastern elitism.  "Liberal media," yuh right! 
When Bush said "Only a Massachusetts liberal," what he said to me was "your state isn't even in play, so I don't really give a rip about you."

Then there was the time he started in on trial lawyers, and pulled that rhetorical ruse of stopping himself before saying something really insulting, "Oh, never mind," and then he snickered and smirked.

I swear, if Kerry had acted the way Bush had, the media would be all over his @ss calling him "out of touch," "not in command of the issues," and "unpresidential."  However, there beloved Bush has a license to be a jerk, because he's a "man of the people."

How stupid do the television talking heads think we are?
I caught that too Max (the Massachusetts slam)........and can't believe this is the first I've seen it brought up.

I caught that too Max (the Massachusetts slam)........and can't believe this is the first I've seen it brought up.


We hear it so much that we don't hear it anymore, like living beside train tracks.  I worked on the big dig and listened to travellers(workers from out of state) talk down Massachusetts liberals and Ted Kennedy(one of their favorite subjects) while making a better wage, getting better services, and some actually moving their families here permanently, all the while slamming us.  Go figure. ???

I caught that too Max (the Massachusetts slam)........and can't believe this is the first I've seen it brought up.


my wife brings it up every time he says it.  It's become one of those acceptable media slurs that gets used quite a bit.  That's of course because of the liberal bias of the media you know.

  I think Bush got bruised. He didn't start well, and apparently the scuttlebutt is that Kerry did quote him accurately about Osama bin Laden.


let's answer that here:

http://a9.g.akamai.net/7/9/8082/v003/democratic1.download.akamai.com/8082/video/notconcerned.wmv

Not the first time he's been unable to remember his own words.  It made the news at the time too, back in March of 2002.

here's a list of some of the inaccuracies from both sides

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,1282,-4549937,00.html

I get a kick out of GWB proposing what he's going to do if re-elected.  The question is "Why didn't you do it in the past four years?" There were a couple of times he proposed that he was going to do something, and I yelled out "You said that last time you ran!"

Yeah..I'll admit that I was actually interested in what BOTH had to say...but I will most likely get picked apart for saying ANYTHING good about Bush while being ignored that I actually listened to Kerry.


Poor Mark!  :\'(

It's been like that for such a long time b/c of the divisive nature of this election. Imagine being called a liberal as if it's comparable to a pedophile. It's unbelievable!


I get a kick out of GWB proposing what he's going to do if re-elected. The question is "Why didn't you do it in the past four years?" There were a couple of times he proposed that he was going to do something, and I yelled out "You said that last time you ran!"


You weren't the only one! I think I frightened my neighbors!

Tanya

let's answer that here:

http://a9.g.akamai.net/7/9/8082/v003/democratic1.download.akamai.com/8082/video/notconcerned.wmv

Not the first time he's been unable to remember his own words.  It made the news at the time too, back in March of 2002.

here's a list of some of the inaccuracies from both sides

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,1282,-4549937,00.html



Thanks Chucky. Was looking for that clip last night after the debate and wasn't have too much luck. I'm surprised that the "liberal media" hasn't really jumped on this harder than they have.


I get a kick out of GWB proposing what he's going to do if re-elected. The question is "Why didn't you do it in the past four years?" There were a couple of times he proposed that he was going to do something, and I yelled out "You said that last time you ran!"


Same here. Both Carlos and I were yelling at the t.v. It was a good thing that we weren't in the audience. We probably would have been kicked out. lol




Cat

I get a kick out of GWB proposing what he's going to do if re-elected.  The question is "Why didn't you do it in the past four years?" There were a couple of times he proposed that he was going to do something, and I yelled out "You said that last time you ran!"


I was thinking the same thing myself. ::)

While Bush did better than in the 1st debate, he was clearly the  looser, even the pundants agree, at least on CNN.  Of course the Fox people gave it to Bush, but that was certainlt expected.

I do fear for this country if Bush wins, and evan if he dosen't.  We are in deep s..t.

While Bush did better than in the 1st debate, he was clearly the  looser, even the pundants agree, at least on CNN.  Of course the Fox people gave it to Bush, but that was certainlt expected.

I do fear for this country if Bush wins, and evan if he dosen't.  We are in deep s..t.


Your continual pessimism doesn't help the cause, man.

Cat,

Help him!! :o

There is power in positive thinking.

Your continual pessimism doesn't help the cause, man.

Cat,

Help him!! :o

There is power in positive thinking.


Ok Hair, How's this: Kerry will win, Kerry will win, Kerry will win, Kerry will win,

KERRY WILL WIN

and

KERRY WILL WIN

in a landslide.

Ok Hair, How's this: Kerry will win, Kerry will win, Kerry will win, Kerry will win,

KERRY WILL WIN

and

KERRY WILL WIN

in a landslide.


Much, MUCH better!! :D :)

I couldn't yell at the TV, one of the downsides of living in a household with a Bush supporter ;)


So? Don't let that person's beliefs squash yours! Yell on, sister!

Tanya

Ok Hair, How's this: Kerry will win, Kerry will win, Kerry will win, Kerry will win,

KERRY WILL WIN

and

KERRY WILL WIN

in a landslide.

My optimism is still guarded.  Wicked guarded, as we'd say in liberal Massachusetts.  If writing it big increased the chances, I'd chip in for a billboard, or maybe some skywriting!

Isn't it funny how Bush had nothing to say on how to better the economy for the average person? I don't mean funny, ha-ha, I mean funny sick.  When the question came to how to create good jobs for Americans, all Bush could do was blame the public schools for the county's plight, and point to "No Child Left Behind," a farcical program which would be a total flop even if he funded it like he promised.  That's when the "liberal" thing came up.  "Only a Massachusetts liberal would call a 49 billion dollar increase a cut in education!"  "

"See?  I'm doin' a good job, just nothin's good enough for you big government socialist liberals...you, you, you INGRATES!!!!"
"Uh, but, Mr. President, you didn't fully fund the No Child Left Behind Act, so how do you expect your own program to work?"
(covering his ears) "BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH! I can't hear you Senator Kerry! NAH NAH NAH NAH!"

OK, that exchange didn't really happen, but that sure is the impression I got from Bush's attitude!

Both Chaney (see, I can spell it) and his little puppet are delusional and have been for the past almost 4 years.

Both Chaney (see, I can spell it) and his little puppet are delusional and have been for the past almost 4 years.



Um, Honey, it is spelled ChEney. Oh, well. I love ya anyway.  :-* :-*




Cat

Um, Honey, it is spelled ChEney. Oh, well. I love ya anyway.  :-* :-*




Cat

You can't spell "Cheney" without "Che," isn't that ironic?

Chaney would be Lon Chaney, the man of 1,000 faces, I think perhaps there is a relationship there.                              rbenda.bei.t-online.de/ret/ret52.jpg

I've said it before and I'll say it again,....George W. Bush is a freakin' meathead.  The guy could screw up a wet dream, he's no better then his father and here's to hoping that he'll be a one termer just like daddy Bush.  He hasn't proven in the slightest why he
should be reelected for 4 more years.  The biggest problem here though is that Dubya's conservatve fan base is fiercely loyal, they just won't budge and refuse to leave him.  Bush could take the economy further down the drain, and invade 3 more countries under grossly false intelligence, but they will never leave him. 

And I'm sick and tired of Dubya and the Republicans using 9-11 and playing the terrorist card to achieve their goals.  Everytime I see images of September 11th I get disgusted now, in a different way from before, now it's because of how Bush used that tragedy for his own selfish ambitions.   

I must say that if, in the most tragic and catastrophic circumstances, Bush is re-elected, with abother four years he will ruin not only everything good about the US, but he will incite a large cultural trend AGAINST Republicanism and Conservatism that will be impossible to reverse within a single generation, maybe two.

I will bring up an example of this happening in history. After 12 years of Republican control of the White House in the eighties and early nineties, after the American people were fed up, Bill Clinton came along and dazzled us all with two amazingly effective terms. And then, thanks to an enourmous sleuth of discrepencies, we got lotted with this idiot. Ever since it's been like Return of the Right-Wing Maniacs - The Movie. I say 'movie' becuase it's just f**king unreal how bad things have become and how so many people refuse to notice.

Even if we don't succeed this time around, which we will, but even if we don't.... we will in the end because we are for progress, and progress is unstoppable.

I must say that if, in the most tragic and catastrophic circumstances, Bush is re-elected, with abother four years he will ruin not only everything good about the US, but he will incite a large cultural trend AGAINST Republicanism and Conservatism that will be impossible to reverse within a single generation, maybe two.

I will bring up an example of this happening in history. After 12 years of Republican control of the White House in the eighties and early nineties, after the American people were fed up, Bill Clinton came along and dazzled us all with two amazingly effective terms. And then, thanks to an enourmous sleuth of discrepencies, we got lotted with this idiot. Ever since it's been like Return of the Right-Wing Maniacs - The Movie. I say 'movie' becuase it's just f**king unreal how bad things have become and how so many people refuse to notice.

Even if we don't succeed this time around, which we will, but even if we don't.... we will in the end because we are for progress, and progress is unstoppable.


Here, here!

Tanya

teehee, I was gonna say the same thing...well, not the last part ;D ;)


Aw shucks Cheer, and I though we were friends  ;)

Even if we don't succeed this time around, which we will, but even if we don't.... we will in the end because we are for progress, and progress is unstoppable.


Unless Lil' Georgie and friends can subvert not just this election, which they are already trying to do, but the next one as well.  The mare they get away with it, the easier it gets.

Chaney would be Lon Chaney, the man of 1,000 faces, I think perhaps there is a relationship there.                              rbenda.bei.t-online.de/ret/ret52.jpg




I saw Lon Chaney walkin with the Queen, doing the werewolves of London... ;D

We are...it's just not the same kind of love that Cat has for you  :-* ;)


Well, I should think not, I was just kidding of course.

and some actually moving their families here permanently, all the while slamming us.  Go figure. Same thing with our little corner of the world (the southern Appalachains). We're the butt of all the"Deliverance, hillbilly, marrying your sister" etc. jokes and slams............so I just agree with them.........saying "Yeah, you're right, why would anyone in their right mind want to live here (Meanwhile, we have the cleanest air quality, the freshest water, the lowest crime rates, the lowest priced housing, 4 distinct seasons, the friendliest people, etc., etc., etc. :P)

Again I invite all those here who love democracy more than any political party to join in a general strike, and encourage others to do so, if either party tries to steal the election.  If you belong to a union, encourage your leadership to call a strike in conjunction with other unions.  If you don't, take sick time, and encourage your fellow workers to do the same.  We need to be ready to strike back for democracy.

Again I invite all those here who love democracy more than any political party to join in a general strike, and encourage others to do so, if either party tries to steal the election.  If you belong to a union, encourage your leadership to call a strike in conjunction with other unions.  If you don't, take sick time, and encourage your fellow workers to do the same.  We need to be ready to strike back for democracy.




It is very difficult for me to go out on strike. I could just let the dishes sit and NOT do them-oh yeah, I already do that.  ;)  But, you know I will be right by your side all the way.



Cat