Quick turn on your television/radio and listen to the fall of Edwards.  Cheney is bring out the BIG stick, it is clear this won't be a Bush-Kerry debate repeat.

Via lies and distortion.  Cheney has no conscience.  You're looking at a sociopath with a bad heart.

I second that, Maxwell!

Tanya

Yeah, but Cheney's doing a job on Edwards on his attendance record.  Edward's smashed Cheney on all the nasty votes on his record, but was unable to refute the attack on his attendance.
:(

Cheney is pulling out the zingers as well:

Cheney: which you probably weren't there to vote for knowing your senate voting record.

Cheney: in fact, your own hometown newspaper started calling you ''Senator Gone.''

I LOVE THIS, I LOVE IT!  KEEP IT UP CHENEY!!!

Zingers, sure, substance, nooooo!!!  Did you hear him trying to defend the Administration's domestic record?  What a joke!

I know what I think, but the pundits will not agree.  I predict right now they're going to eviscerate Edwards' performance!
:o

  Oh, for the luvva ... at any rate, Edwards needed to bite a little harder...

Eh, why deny it?  Cheney whupped Edwards' @ss.

OMFG, The debate just ended and I have never been so confident that Kerry-Edwards is the right way to go. Edwards did a fabulous job. He cornered Cheney several times to where Cheney couldn't deny his faults. I didn't expect him to do such a good job. Cheney got a couple of good blows, but that didn't overshadow the fact that he, himself, blows. I had no idea that Cheney voted against a holiday for MLK jr. That was appauling and despicible to me. Wow. He didn't allow Cheney to use that flip-flop crap, because as soon as he pulled out that card, Edwards hit him hard with Bush-Cheney's own flip-flopping. There are so many things about this debate I am proud of I can't even list them all efficiently enough. Edwards did it all.

OMFG, The debate just ended and I have never been so confident that Kerry-Edwards is the right way to go. Edwards did a fabulous job. He cornered Cheney several times to where Cheney couldn't deny his faults. I didn't expect him to do such a good job. Cheney got a couple of good blows, but that didn't overshadow the fact that he, himself, blows. I had no idea that Cheney voted against a holiday for MLK jr. That was appauling and despicible to me. Wow. He didn't allow Cheney to use that flip-flop crap, because as soon as he pulled out that card, Edwards hit him hard with Bush-Cheney's own flip-flopping. There are so many things about this debate I am proud of I can't even list them all efficiently enough. Edwards did it all.

I agree with you Mickey-D, but the big guys on the tube don't.  They count, we don't. They're all hoping this a harbinger of what's to come on Friday.  I bet all those pundits wish Cheney could sub for Bush next time around!

Interestingly enough, the major news agencys are pretty much split down the middle.. i forget who said what exactly  :-[ but i get the Kerry newsletter and they had links to pretty much all the major ones and it was basically a 50/50 split

Once again you blindly overstate

The CNN and MSNBC net polls both favoured Edwards, but they weren't scientific. ABC's poll favoured Cheney, and was scientific, but admittedly, 80% of their sample audience were republican. CBS news did a scientific poll of 154 non-committed voters which favoured Edwards.

Thanks for that...

Eh, why deny it?  Cheney whupped Edwards' @ss.


Well I agree but to an extent.  Cheney won, anyone with some real honesty in themselves knows it, the REAL polls show it as well.  Fox News's online poll was cheated on or something (though it was favoring Cheney), after only 10 minutes of being posted it had over 156,000 votes?  I don't think so.  Same with MSNBC.  Both parties sent out newsletters telling people to go and spam online polls.

Cheney won terror/Iraq hands-down.  He was killing Edwards at that point.  Edwards got the health care thing good.  Either way I give this slightly to Cheney, but it was not by any means a slam dunk. 

I just hope this shuts the democrats up (who have been doing nothing but harping over Kerry's win in the first debate) until Friday.

Bush/Cheney- 1
Kerry/Edwards- 1

Two debates remain.

Fox News's online poll was cheated on or something (though it was favoring Cheney), after only 10 minutes of being posted it had over 156,000 votes? I don't think so. Same with MSNBC. Both parties sent out newsletters telling people to go and spam online polls.

The main problem with all on-line polls is self-selection: it's impossible to balance your poll and get a true sample from it.  And 156k votes in 10 minutes (that's 260 per second!) does rather imply a concerted effort by the party faithful (if you see what I mean)

The coverage I've heard on the BBC up til now does make me prefer the Republican ticket in one area: sense of humour ;)

The main problem with all on-line polls is self-selection: it's impossible to balance your poll and get a true sample from it.  And 156k votes in 10 minutes (that's 260 per second!) does rather imply a concerted effort by the party faithful (if you see what I mean)

The coverage I've heard on the BBC up til now does make me prefer the Republican ticket in one area: sense of humour ;)


online polls are worse than useless.  If you know how to spoof your IP address and how to write a script to vote for you, you can register thousands of votes a second.  All online votes show, is who can the hacker likes best.

Most of the news articles give it a split decision.  I wonder if the neocons wish Cheney was facing Kerry instead of their mumbling stumbling guy.

I should clarify:  Cheney whupped Edwards' @ss if  LYING is a legit debating tactic.
OK, maybe Cheney was telling the truth when he declared he'd never met Edwards.  As Senate president, Cheney swore in Edwards, but that's not the same as meeting him, is it?  Oh, and here he is a the Continental Prayer Breakfast, standing shoulder to shoulder to Edwards, but that doesn't mean he met him.  I stand right next to people on public transport all the time, but I don't meet them....
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/uploads/cheney-edwards.jpg

Anyway,  here's a link to a good article in the Toronto Star about the debate and the lies of D-i-c-k Cheney.
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1097013684100&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154

  I fell fast asleep on the couch right after the debate. Dog Bliss America. Now that I've slept on it, I think the Cheney-Edwards debate was a very healthy thing for the USA...

  Edwards spoke dramatically more clearly than Kerry, while dutifully backing him up. Cheney barely concealed his venomous self, and managed to preserve his commanding lead in his party, as promoter of false assumptions and fabrications: Like Iraq as a breeding ground for terror, justifying invasion (never mind the chronology, folks); Like an economy that is on the right track (never mind the debts and outsourcing).

  Form followed function for both men. The slick middle-American lawyer, and the stodgy American-Kremlin schemer. So far as "winning" the debate by better making his case, and as regardless as possible of ideology, I give Edwards the edge, by nature and by training.

    In any case, it doesn't matter who won. People don't vote for VPs and I doubt that yesterday's debate will make any significant impact on undecided voters.

 

Still the media titans have spoken.  Right-wing lickspittles such as Tim Russert can't bear to see the Republican candidacy lose two in a row.  So they'll keep saying Cheney won.  Cheney certainly played it like he won.  One quality sociopaths display in spades is self-confidence.

If John Kerry is Herman Munster, D-i-c-k Cheney is Uncle Fester Addams!
:P

http://www.internetweekly.org/images/uncle_fester_cheney.jpg

It's true, the internet dosen't lie

It's true, the internet dosen't lie

:guffaw :D:D:D

I don't think the debate was WON by either one of them. They both got in their zings to each other. However, like Max has pointed out, Cheney did not exactly speaketh the truth. One of his bold-faced lies is right here.


CHENEY: The senator has got his facts wrong. I have not suggested there's a connection between Iraq and 9/11, but there's clearly an established Iraqi track record with terror.



http://www.debates.org/pages/trans2004b.html

(Transcripts if anyone is interested.)


But, here is an acticle conterdicting that statement.

http://iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=3&art_id=qw1094787903948B251





Cat

I'd call the debate a draw.  Both got in some good punches, but no knockouts.  I think Edwards came closest with the Halliburton - Enron stuff, and the listing of Chuuney's house votes.  Although I guess most people didn't get this one, Chuuney also demonstrated his hypocracy re gay marriage.  And, I think Edwards scored points with his "kind words" re Chuuney's family.

Fact Sheet: John Edwards' At Least 14 Inaccurate Statements Last Night as told by www.georgewbush.com:


1.  Edwards Repeated Kerry's False Claim That $200 Billion Has Been Spent In Iraq When In Fact "The Cost Of The War To Date Has Been Slightly More Than $120 Billion."  (Janet Hook, "Rivals' Bold Assertions Are Debatable," Los Angeles Times, 10/6/04)

2.  FactCheck.Org:  "Edwards Falsely Claimed The Administration 'Lobbied The Congress' To Cut The Combat Pay Of Troops In Iraq, Something The White House Never Supported."  ("Cheney & Edwards Mangle Facts," FactCheck.org, 10/6/04, Available At http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=272, Accessed 10/6/04)

3.  Edwards' False Assertion That The Administration "Sent 40,000 American Troops Into Iraq Without The Body Armor They Needed" Has Been Refuted By Vice Chairman Of The Joint Chiefs Of Staff Gen. Peter Pace Who Said "Every Soldier And Marine On The Ground Had Body Armor."  (Calvin Woodward, "Cheney, Edwards Stretch Findings, Facts," The Associated Press, 10/6/04)

4.  According To The Associated Press, Edwards' Attacks On Halliburton Contracts In Iraq Not Accurate Because "Congressional Auditors Recently Concluded U.S. Officials Met Legal Guidelines In Awarding" No-Bid Contracts.  (Calvin Woodward, "Cheney, Edwards Stretch Findings, Facts," The Associated Press, 10/6/04)

5.  According To The Washington Post, Edwards' Claim That Millionaires Pay A Lower Tax Rate Than The Men And Women Serving In Iraq Is False.  "Edwards asserted that 'millionaires sitting by their swimming pool … pay a lower tax rate than the men and women who are receiving paychecks for serving' in Iraq. President Bush last year cut the tax rate on dividends to 15 percent, whereas most soldiers would be in a 15 percent tax bracket -- and pay an effective rate much less after taking deductions for children and mortgages."  (Glenn Kessler And Jim VandeHei, "Misleading Assertions Cover Iraq War And Voting Records," The Washington Post, 10/6/04)

6.  According To The Associated Press, Edwards Falsely Claimed There Was No Connection Between Iraq And Al Qaeda, When A Recent Senate Intelligence Committee Report Concluded "That The CIA Was Reasonable In Thinking There Were Probably Several Contacts" Between The Two.  (Calvin Woodward, "Cheney, Edwards Stretch Findings, Facts," The Associated Press, 10/6/04)

7.  Edwards Falsely Claimed That The U.S. Has Absorbed 90 Percent Of The Casualties In Iraq, When In Fact The Wall Street Journal Puts U.S. Casualties Closer To 50 Percent When You Include Iraqis Helping To Secure Their Own Country. "Our uniformed Iraqi allies, however, have already suffered at least 750 combat deaths. And that doesn't include the recruits who've been killed by car bombs as they've waited to enlist in the police or new Iraq army. Even using, er, liberal math, this would put U.S. killed-in-action at about 50% of the total."  (Sen. John Edwards, Vice Presidential Debate, Cleveland, OH, 10/5/04; Editorial, "Our Kerry Iraq Guide," The Wall Street Journal, 9/30/04)

8.  FactCheck.Org:  " Implied That Cheney Was In Charge Of When It Did Business With Libya In Violation Of US Sanctions, But That Happened Long Before Cheney Joined The Company."  ("Cheney & Edwards Mangle Facts," FactCheck.org, 10/6/04, Available At http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=272, Accessed 10/6/04)

9.  FactCheck.Org: Edwards' Claim That No Child Left Behind (NCLB) Funding Is "$27 Billion Short" Is Wrong When "In Fact, Overall Federal Funding For Education Grew 58% In Bush's First Three Years."  ("Cheney & Edwards Mangle Facts," FactCheck.org, 10/6/04, Available At http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=272, Accessed 10/6/04)

10.  Despite Edwards' Assertion, President Bush "Simply Endorsed" An Amendment That Had Already Been Introduced On Capitol Hill, He Did Not Propose A Constitutional Amendment On Gay Marriage.  (Glenn Kessler And Jim Vandehei, "Misleading Assertions Cover Iraq War And Voting Records," The Washington Post, 10/6/04)

11.  According To The Washington Post, Edwards "Misleadingly Charged That The Bush Administration Is 'For Outsourcing Of Jobs.'"  (Glenn Kessler And Jim VandeHei, "Misleading Assertions Cover Iraq War And Voting Records," The Washington Post, 10/6/04)

12.  Edwards Inaccurately Claimed Kerry Voted Or Cosponsored 600 Tax Cuts.  The reality is, since joining the Senate in 1985, only 5 of Kerry's own bills have become law, and none were tax bills.  Tax bills Kerry has voted for include votes for Democrat alternative "tax cuts" like a 2001 vote that provided $747 billion less in tax relief.  The fact is Kerry voted for higher taxes 350 times, including 98 times for tax increases totaling more than $2.3 trillion and at least 126 times against tax cuts totaling more than $5.3 trillion.  (Sen. John Edwards, Vice Presidential Debate, Cleveland, OH, 10/5/04; H.R. 1836, CQ Vote #119: Rejected 35-64: R 0-49; D 35-15, 5/21/01, Kerry Voted Yea; Senate Republican Policy Committee, "Tax Relief Act/Deny All Tax Relief Except For A 10-Percent Bracket," 5/21/01)

13.  FactCheck.Org:  Edwards' Job Figures "Omit The Growth In Employment By Federal, State And Local Governments.  The Net Loss In Total Employment Is Actually 913,000 As Of August, The Most Recent Figures Available."  ("Cheney & Edwards Mangle Facts," FactCheck.org, 10/6/04, Available At http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=272, Accessed 10/6/04)

14.  Edwards Repeated Kerry's Exaggerated And False Claim Of Saying "We Had Osama Bin Laden Cornered At Tora Bora," When FactCheck.org Already Said Kerry "Overstates The Case."  (Sen. John Edwards, Vice Presidential Debate, Cleveland, OH, 10/5/04; "Distortions And Misstatements At First Presidential Debate," FactCheck.org, 10/1/04, http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=271, Accessed 10/1/04)