Tonight on Hannity & Colmes, the panel to discuss the current polls and upcoming debate is ultra-right psycho-b*tch Ann Coulter and to represent the "liberal" side is Pat Caddell, a cantankerous corporate pollster who has made a career lately of being a Democrat who bashes Democrats. 
This is what Faux News does all the time.  It's part of the strategy of moving the "center" to "center right" and beyond.  And it works because our citizenry is dumbed down and gullible.

Oh, what's the answer for Kerry?  What can Kerry actually DO to win the debate?
Nothing.

Oh, what's the answer for Kerry?  What can Kerry actually DO to win the debate?
Nothing.


You already know Kerry is going to lose don't you?  The guy is going be up there, sweating orange, and what not.  But Kerry may win, he could get up there, debate himself on his for/against stances or near everything, and then finally one of the two sides of Kerry will win.

You already know Kerry is going to lose don't you? 
Yes, because Big Brother says so.

Yes, because Big Brother says so.


You must really think the America people are stupid if you think that they are not going to make up there own minds about who won and listen to pundits.  I can't remember who said it (since the rules of engagement are a crock) but he said:  ''Simple way to see who wins, turn your television on mute, whoever wins with the sound off won with the sound on.''  If thats the case, the French-looking candidate is done for.

John Kerry for President....of France.

You must really think the America people are stupid if you think that they are not going to make up there own minds about who won and listen to pundits.
I'm not working for the DNC, I don't have to worry about flattering the American people, nor do I claim my point of view is anybody's but my own.  I call 'em like I see 'em, Jack.  If the majority of the electorate votes for Bush, the majority of the electorate is ill-informed at best, stupid at worst.
  I can't remember who said it (since the rules of engagement are a crock) but he said:  ''Simple way to see who wins, turn your television on mute, whoever wins with the sound off won with the sound on.''
Anybody who would judge a verbal contest on looks is a bimbo, and anybody who would encourage people to judge a war of words on looks is a cynic.  And that's what we have, a nation of image-obsessed bimbos with micro-attention spans, tiny vocabularies, and diminutive intellects being led sheepishly by a shallow-minded media composed of rich entertainers toeing the line for Big Business.  It sucks to have a brain these days.
  If thats the case, the French-looking candidate is done for.

John Kerry for President....of France.

And that is nothing short of BIGOTRY, my man.  Bigotry, a mainstay of groupthink, the pre-requisite for FASCISM!

And that's what we have, a nation of image-obsessed bimbos with micro-attention spans, tiny vocabularies, and diminutive intellects being led sheepishly by a shallow-minded media composed of rich entertainers toeing the line for Big Business.  It sucks to have a brain these days.


No disrespect or anything, but I'm really tired of reading your usually excellent points and then having you come to the conclusion that ALL Americans are a bunch of dumb*sses who do nothing but worry about what is the latest in cool. I don't obsess over images, my attention span is slightly larger than you suggest, I can have a beautiful vocabulary if I choose to, and while not in the genius group, I do have a brain that I can use (it's just temporarily out of order for the next four months ;D).

That said, I will admit that you and many other board members on here have gotten me to think about politics and the people involved in them than I usually do. I just don't like when you lump all Americans into the same "image-obsessed bimbo" group.

No disrespect or anything, but I'm really tired of reading your usually excellent points and then having you come to the conclusion that ALL Americans are a bunch of dumb*sses who do nothing but worry about what is the latest in cool. I don't obsess over images, my attention span is slightly larger than you suggest, I can have a beautiful vocabulary if I choose to, and while not in the genius group, I do have a brain that I can use (it's just temporarily out of order for the next four months ;D).

That said, I will admit that you and many other board members on here have gotten me to think about politics and the people involved in them than I usually do. I just don't like when you lump all Americans into the same "image-obsessed bimbo" group.

That screed was born out of frustration.  In a country the size of America, there are millions of all kinds of people.

That screed was born out of frustration.  In a country the size of America, there are millions of all kinds of people.


Don't you think it extreme to call Bush supporters ill-informed?  John French Kerry can't even get 10 people to come to his rallies:

Anti-Bush Voters Seek Reasons to Back Kerry

By Vanessa Williams
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, September 28, 2004; Page A08

CLAYTON, Mo., Sept. 27 -- Denise Mulle said she started out the election season more anti-Bush than pro-Kerry. But she read newspapers and Kerry campaign literature that helped her understand the Democratic presidential nominee's positions on the issues.

"It's not good enough to say that Bush is so horrible that I'd vote for Bozo before I'd vote for Bush -- even though that's what first brought me to the Kerry campaign," she said. 

Mulle, 52, who runs a nursing home consulting business with her husband, Ken, said she wanted to do her part to help the Massachusetts senator, who she agrees has struggled to get his message out.

Using a list of undecided voters supplied by the Kerry campaign, Mulle sent out 100 invitations and called 80 other wavering voters to attend a reception at her home in this tony suburb of St. Louis on Sunday. About a half-dozen showed up.

As the guests sipped wine, the discussion was more a Bush-bashing session than a Kerry pep rally. "You've told us why we should not vote for President Bush," one woman said, "now tell us why we should vote for Kerry." Campaign workers rushed to answer the question, but it symbolized one of the biggest hurdles John F. Kerry faces.

Don't you think it extreme to call Bush supporters ill-informed?  John French Kerry can't even get 10 people to come to his rallies:

For one, the Francophobic bigotry is totally uncouth and obnoxious.  For another, the best I can surmise is that those who support Bush and aren't stinking rich are either uninformed or in denial.  I wouldn't encourage public figures who need diplomacy to announce the same conclusions, but I think that's the terrible truth.

GWB -- Until Murdoch's "He looks French" talking point made air, I was completely ignorant to the fact that all French people look alike for there to be a definitive French "look."  The couple of people I've met in my life who claimed to be from France, originally, had more in common looks-wise with Bush (face shape, especially) than with Kerry, so it's now obvious to me that they were lying and must have spent years perfecting their fake accents to perpetuate their fraud.  Since you're the resident expert on definitively French features, could you explain to me EXACTLY what "French looking" means and how it is that Kerry looks more French than Bush?  Thanks in advance.

I didn't know Kerry had been spotted in a blue and white stripey top and a black beret with a string of onions round his neck.  ;)

No disrespect or anything, but I'm really tired of reading your usually excellent points and then having you come to the conclusion that ALL Americans are a bunch of dumb*sses who do nothing but worry about what is the latest in cool. I don't obsess over images, my attention span is slightly larger than you suggest, I can have a beautiful vocabulary if I choose to, and while not in the genius group, I do have a brain that I can use (it's just temporarily out of order for the next four months ;D).

That said, I will admit that you and many other board members on here have gotten me to think about politics and the people involved in them than I usually do. I just don't like when you lump all Americans into the same "image-obsessed bimbo" group.

I don't think Max is lumping all Americans into that category: just all Bush voters... ;)

But seriously, what is an outsider supposed to make of a contest where one side's main debating points about the other are along the lines of "He looks French", "His face is orange" (from one picture only), "Doesn't he look silly in this picture?" (which turns out to be doctored anyway - like that football one).

Basically they're trying in a concerted way to ridicule their opponent: it's incredible that this kind of puerile, facile, idiocy has any kind of part in politics whatsoever.  The only thing this kind of behaviour says to me is that they know that they can't win the arguments - simply by coming up with this stuff should be taken as an admission that their guy is outclassed.  But, to shout the question: WHY DOES THIS KIND OF TRASH SWING VOTER OPINION?

The answer, my friend, is blow^g^g^g^g...  What I mean is Max has more than a grain of truth in his analysis: only an image-obsessed microcephalic moron with the attention span of a gnat could seriously be swayed by this kind of argument - but it seems like voters in significant numbers *ARE*.  Democracy sucks.

Democracy sucks.


Its not democracy that sucks, its the fact that most people in the US have been so miseducated, so mislead, and so confused that they perpetually vote against their class interests.

Its not democracy that sucks, its the fact that most people in the US have been so miseducated, so mislead, and so confused that they perpetually vote against their class interests.


Yeah let me tell those democrats care so much about the poor...what a crock.

The U.S. population is miseducated?  You sound just like Michael Moore.  You can read all his offensive quotes in the Fahrenheit 9/11 thread, which I noticed no one wants to.  No democrat wants to be banned from the Church of St. Michael Moore.

GWB - I know you like to get distracted on to topics about which you can rant, but would you mind applying some of your vast intellect to the point I made above with respect to the puerile and facile lack of argument coming from the Bush camp?


Its not democracy that sucks, its the fact that most people in the US have been so miseducated, so misled, and so confused that they perpetually vote against their class interests.

I think that by using terms such as "class interests" you may be harming your case... it makes it too easy for people to jump on the terminology rather than address the issue: people by and large do not know what it is they're voting for.  Plus you get such people who are unable to discern between valid source-backed stories and vitriolic propaganda masquerading as news that it makes one despair of the whole democratic process :(

GWB - I know you like to get distracted on to topics about which you can rant, but would you mind applying some of your vast intellect to the point I made above with respect to the puerile and facile lack of argument coming from the Bush camp?


I think that by using terms such as "class interests" you may be harming your case... it makes it too easy for people to jump on the terminology rather than address the issue: people by and large do not know what it is they're voting for.  Plus you get such people who are unable to discern between valid source-backed stories and vitriolic propaganda masquerading as news that it makes one despair of the whole democratic process :(




Yes, Philbo, it does make one despair, and you may be right re mentioning class.  After all, we are all "middle class" right?  Some years ago I participated in a sociological study in which we asked people which class the thought they were in.  They all said "middle" until we gave the the opportunity to say "working class".  Then, thats what they picked.  Part of the problem is that people in general don't understand the class structure or their class interests, unless they are the privileged few at the top.

Yes, Philbo, it does make one despair, and you may be right re mentioning class.  After all, we are all "middle class" right?  Some years ago I participated in a sociological study in which we asked people which class the thought they were in.  They all said "middle" until we gave the the opportunity to say "working class".  Then, thats what they picked.  Part of the problem is that people in general don't understand the class structure or their class interests, unless they are the privileged few at the top.


I had a class in which we were all supposed to tell which class we considered ourselves. This was
at a UMass-Boston, a state university in Boston, no dorms, commuter school.  I was the only one who
said working class.  There were people paying rent in triple deckers in Southie who were adamant about being middle class, until we got in to economics, class structure etc.  What a wake-up call that
was.  What a shame that they had to be convinced that there wasn't anything "wrong" with calling yourself working class.

Bill Maher said on Hardball the other night "our democracy needs to be overhauled from top to bottom."  
I'm not trying to "lump" all Americans, or even all Bush supporters, together on all fronts, only in what I can see as a misdirected support for this President.
On the other hand, the Democrats again have succeeded in choosing a bummer of a candidate.  Why does this happen?
There is a quiet fascist subversion of democracy happening in Congress.  Most Americans do not see (or do Nazi) it.  Rep. Tom DeLay is the most powerful Congressman.  He is leading the charge.  Democrats are ostracized and ignored on committees.  Moderate Republicans are strong armed and intimidated into supporting the party line.  Lobbyists are told in no uncertain terms if they support Democrats, they will get NOTHING!  Committee chairmanships are now term-limited to six years, about as much time as it takes to get a grasp on the complex political mechanics involved.  Congressional power over the past ten years since the Newt Deal has been torn from committees and concentrated in the hands of congressional leadership
If Tom DeLay doesn't get what he wants, he bullies, buffaloes, and railroads his way through.  Most Republicans didn't want to impeach Clinton (they wanted "censure plus"), but DeLay, Gingrich, and their right-wing cabal made it clear whoever didn't vote for impeachment would be left out of all the reindeer games.
The standard length for a House vote is fifteen minutes.  The vote for the medicare drug benefit was over three hours.  Three hours from 3:00 a.m. to 6:00 a.m. as De Lay kept up the browbeating, cajoling, and threatening.  They allegedly bribed moderate Republican hold-out Congressman Nick Smith $100,000 for his patronage.  Whatever happened to that investigation anyway?
This legislation with the unprecedented three hour vote was drafted in session not open to Democrats of the press.
"Majority" to Tom DeLay and his cronies means dictatorship, not cooperation.  They are fascists because they wish to cede power from the elected government of the people to the unelected power of Corporation-Government complex.  That is the essence of fascism.
Democrats are not just in the minority, they are being driven from governing power that is rightfully theirs.  The Republicans WILL make this country a one-party business dictatorship if allowed to procede over the next four election cycles.
Democrats are foolish to believe they can do ANYTHING to placate the beast.  They selected a moderate crashing bore with a heroic war record, and look what happened.  Kerry was charged using phony statistics of being the most liberal Senator, and his war record was turned into a badge of cowardice and treason.  Democrats cannot move to the center, because the center has been eradicated.

So you wonder why "likely voter" will more likely vote for Bush?  Look who OWNS the media!  Corporate titans in service of the Republican Right.  Look who CONTROLS the spin coming out of Washington, the Republican Right!  Why do they keep talking about the "liberal media" when all major media outlets are biased in favor of Wall Street and Big Business?  Because the media can NEVER be right-wing enough!

When you are battling for the hearts and minds, you must imitate Joseph McCarthy.  You must pretend the enemy has infiltrated and saturated the country.  Hire goons like Bernie Goldberg and Brent Bozell to demonstrate the elitist liberal bias, and ignore Eric Alterman and David Brock who have factually discredited and disproved all charges made of liberal media bias.

FOX NEWS IN SERVICE OF FASCISM!

I had a class in which we were all supposed to tell which class we considered ourselves. This was
at a UMass-Boston, a state university in Boston, no dorms, commuter school.  I was the only one who
said working class.  There were people paying rent in triple deckers in Southie who were adamant about being middle class, until we got in to economics, class structure etc.  What a wake-up call that
was.  What a shame that they had to be convinced that there wasn't anything "wrong" with calling yourself working class.


A lot of people have problems saying what class they are.

I currently make around $12,500 a year.  I would say that places me squarely in the Lower Class.  However, I luckily live in Alabama, which is almost a 3rd World Country.  In this area, I am probably more closely to Lower-Middle Class.

My highest income was my last year in the Military.  Then, I had an income of around $25,000.  Not rich, but I made enough for my family and I to get by comfortably.

But I have hopes that I can raise to a higher income in the future.  I am knowingly taking a lower income now (and have even turned down 2 offers in the past yer at a higher income), because I know I will be the manager (and possibly the owner) of the store I work at in a few years.  The owner is planning on retiring in about a year and a half, and I will become the next manager.  He is even talking about letting me buy the store from him, so I can be a business owner (again) in the future.

However, I may just remain as manager.  This is because I know what kind of hastle owning a business is.  Taxes, Insurance, Liability, and many other issues can make or break a business.  People may see a store with annual sales of $250,000+ as doing good.  But when you consider our gross profit is only 3%, the profit at the end is not very large at all.  Take away the various overhead, the business actually barely breaks even.

But I digress.  I think a lot of people do not classify themselves correctly.  Add to that, the great number that live outside of their means.  Being "poor" in this country is not the same as it is in other countries, and in this we are lucky.  Our poor quite often lives in nice houses, and drive around in cars (if not SUVs).  Just drive around a housing project, and look at the number of new cars there.  A far cry from Calcutta or Rwanda, where the poor there live in cardboard boxes and eat anything they can find.

A lot of people have problems saying what class they are.

I currently make around $12,500 a year.  I would say that places me squarely in the Lower Class.  However, I luckily live in Alabama, which is almost a 3rd World Country.  In this area, I am probably more closely to Lower-Middle Class.

My highest income was my last year in the Military.  Then, I had an income of around $25,000.  Not rich, but I made enough for my family and I to get by comfortably.

But I have hopes that I can raise to a higher income in the future.  I am knowingly taking a lower income now (and have even turned down 2 offers in the past yer at a higher income), because I know I will be the manager (and possibly the owner) of the store I work at in a few years.  The owner is planning on retiring in about a year and a half, and I will become the next manager.  He is even talking about letting me buy the store from him, so I can be a business owner (again) in the future.

However, I may just remain as manager.  This is because I know what kind of hastle owning a business is.  Taxes, Insurance, Liability, and many other issues can make or break a business.  People may see a store with annual sales of $250,000+ as doing good.  But when you consider our gross profit is only 3%, the profit at the end is not very large at all.  Take away the various overhead, the business actually barely breaks even.

But I digress.  I think a lot of people do not classify themselves correctly.  Add to that, the great number that live outside of their means.  Being "poor" in this country is not the same as it is in other countries, and in this we are lucky.  Our poor quite often lives in nice houses, and drive around in cars (if not SUVs).  Just drive around a housing project, and look at the number of new cars there.  A far cry from Calcutta or Rwanda, where the poor there live in cardboard boxes and eat anything they can find.

Yet your President wants to see you subsidize the tax burden formerly borne by the rich, who in return for their tax cuts do NOT invest in America.

Yet your President wants to see you subsidize the tax burden formerly borne by the rich, who in return for their tax cuts do NOT invest in America.


Well gee, in 2001 I got back $300.  For me, that was a *LOT* of money.  And guess what, Bill Gates (and everybody else) got back roughly the same $300.

For me, that money was almost a month's rent.  For Bill Gates, that money probably almost paid for one pair of shoes.  So please tell me again, how does that "benefit the rich"?

Well gee, in 2001 I got back $300.  For me, that was a *LOT* of money.  And guess what, Bill Gates (and everybody else) got back roughly the same $300.

For me, that money was almost a month's rent.  For Bill Gates, that money probably almost paid for one pair of shoes.  So please tell me again, how does that "benefit the rich"?


Is that your understanding of the tax cut to the wealthy that was implemented?  That the wealthy got
the same amount that the working classes did?

Well gee, in 2001 I got back $300.  For me, that was a *LOT* of money.  And guess what, Bill Gates (and everybody else) got back roughly the same $300.

For me, that money was almost a month's rent.  For Bill Gates, that money probably almost paid for one pair of shoes.  So please tell me again, how does that "benefit the rich"?

Uhhhh....I am not prepared with exact figures to contradict these statements, but they sure don't sound right to me!

Bill Maher said on Hardball the other night "our democracy needs to be overhauled from top to bottom." 
I'm not trying to "lump" all Americans, or even all Bush supporters, together on all fronts, only in what I can see as a misdirected support for this President.
On the other hand, the Democrats again have succeeded in choosing a bummer of a candidate.  Why does this happen?
There is a quiet fascist subversion of democracy happening in Congress.  Most Americans do not see (or do Nazi) it.  Rep. Tom DeLay is the most powerful Congressman.  He is leading the charge.  Democrats are ostracized and ignored on committees.  Moderate Republicans are strong armed and intimidated into supporting the party line.  Lobbyists are told in no uncertain terms if they support Democrats, they will get NOTHING!  Committee chairmanships are now term-limited to six years, about as much time as it takes to get a grasp on the complex political mechanics involved.  Congressional power over the past ten years since the Newt Deal has been torn from committees and concentrated in the hands of congressional leadership
If Tom DeLay doesn't get what he wants, he bullies, buffaloes, and railroads his way through.  Most Republicans didn't want to impeach Clinton (they wanted "censure plus"), but DeLay, Gingrich, and their right-wing cabal made it clear whoever didn't vote for impeachment would be left out of all the reindeer games.
The standard length for a House vote is fifteen minutes.  The vote for the medicare drug benefit was over three hours.  Three hours from 3:00 a.m. to 6:00 a.m. as De Lay kept up the browbeating, cajoling, and threatening.  They allegedly bribed moderate Republican hold-out Congressman Nick Smith $100,000 for his patronage.  Whatever happened to that investigation anyway?
This legislation with the unprecedented three hour vote was drafted in session not open to Democrats of the press.
"Majority" to Tom DeLay and his cronies means dictatorship, not cooperation.  They are fascists because they wish to cede power from the elected government of the people to the unelected power of Corporation-Government complex.  That is the essence of fascism.
Democrats are not just in the minority, they are being driven from governing power that is rightfully theirs.  The Republicans WILL make this country a one-party business dictatorship if allowed to procede over the next four election cycles.
Democrats are foolish to believe they can do ANYTHING to placate the beast.  They selected a moderate crashing bore with a heroic war record, and look what happened.  Kerry was charged using phony statistics of being the most liberal Senator, and his war record was turned into a badge of cowardice and treason.  Democrats cannot move to the center, because the center has been eradicated.

So you wonder why "likely voter" will more likely vote for Bush?  Look who OWNS the media!  Corporate titans in service of the Republican Right.  Look who CONTROLS the spin coming out of Washington, the Republican Right!  Why do they keep talking about the "liberal media" when all major media outlets are biased in favor of Wall Street and Big Business?  Because the media can NEVER be right-wing enough!

When you are battling for the hearts and minds, you must imitate Joseph McCarthy.  You must pretend the enemy has infiltrated and saturated the country.  Hire goons like Bernie Goldberg and Brent Bozell to demonstrate the elitist liberal bias, and ignore Eric Alterman and David Brock who have factually discredited and disproved all charges made of liberal media bias.

FOX NEWS IN SERVICE OF FASCISM!

This is a message that everyone in America needs to hear. Alas, they never will and herein you have explained why. Two points! I commend you.

This is a message that everyone in America needs to hear. Alas, they never will and herein you have explained why. Two points! I commend you.

Oh gosh, gee thahks!
:)

I just heard this guy Lou DuBose interviewed.  His book in next on my reading list.  It sounds like it's key to understanding the intra-governmental Republican power grab.
http://books.politinfo.com/details/index-1586482386.html

Speaking of  DeLay-This just in

Tom DeLay's Ethics Breach
Panel Releases Quotes Impugning House Leader
By LARRY MARGASAK, AP

WASHINGTON (Oct. 1) - Arms have always been twisted during close congressional votes on major legislation, but an ethics report rebuking House Majority Leader Tom DeLay added something the public rarely learns: what lawmakers really say to each other.
DeLay said he accepted the ethics committee's guidance.
The House ethics committee report even reveals what Republican members didn't say - but were thinking - as they unsuccessfully pleaded with Rep. Nick Smith, R-Mich., to support a prescription drug benefit in Medicare.

The following are thoughts, comments and remembrances of the November 2003 events, as told to ethics committee investigators for their report on attempts to pressure Smith.

As DeLay, R-Texas, approached Smith in late November 2003, he was thinking - based on prior conversations - that he would be ''stuck'' talking with the Michigan lawmaker for a long time.

That might explain why the following conversation lasted only eight seconds.

DeLay: ''I will personally endorse your son (a candidate for Congress). That's my last offer.''

There was, in fact, no first offer. DeLay said it was his exit strategy to end the conversation quickly.

It was long enough, though, for the House ethics committee on Thursday to criticize DeLay for trying to trade a political endorsement for a vote. The committee also rebuked Rep. Candice Miller, R-Mich., for a heavy-handed attempt at persuasion, and Smith himself, for making exaggerated statements about the pressure he received.

On Friday, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., said, ''This offer of a quid pro quo further taints the Republicans' Medicare prescription drug bill.''

The attempts to link Smith's vote to his son's candidacy was pervasive throughout the ethics report. Brad Smith eventually lost in the primary as he tried to succeed his retiring father

Most of the approaches occurred during the pre-dawn hours of Nov. 22, 2003, when the Medicare vote was held open by GOP leaders from 3 a.m. to 5:51 a.m. Normally, a typical 15-minute vote may be held open about five minutes for late-arriving members.

The Medicare legislation passed 220-215 without Smith's support.

''Well, I hope your son doesn't come to Congress,'' Miller recalled saying as Smith stayed on the House floor after voting.

Smith, rising out of his seat, said he responded: ''You get out of here.''

Rep. Howard ''Buck'' McKeon, R-Calif., was sitting nearby. He was thinking: ''It was not pleasant.''

After the marathon vote finally ended and members were leaving, Smith encountered Rep. Randy ''Duke'' Cunningham, R-Calif. Smith said Cunningham began waving what appeared to be a billfold.

''We've got $10,000 already ... to make sure your son doesn't get elected,'' Smith recalled Cunningham saying.

Cunningham said he didn't recall waving the billfold and denied mentioning any specific amount.

Besides DeLay, two of the most important Republicans to approach Smith were Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Ill., and Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson. Members of the presidential Cabinet are allowed in the House chamber.

Thompson said he asked Smith if he ''had any questions on the bill that I could answer, or if there was any information that I could provide.''

Smith said no.

Was there ''any chance'' of a yes vote, Thompson asked.

Smith said no.

Hastert joined the conversation. He recalled telling Smith that a ''yes'' vote would be ''good for the Republican Party'' and ''good for the president.'' He also recalled telling Smith that a vote for the bill would be a legacy that Smith could pass on to his children and grandchildren.

Rep. James Walsh, R-N.Y., said he was thinking how hard he had worked on the Medicare bill, and how ''frustrated'' and ''impatient'' he was awaiting the outcome of the vote.

''Can't you help us on this one?'' Walsh recalls asking Smith.

Smith: No.

Walsh: ''Well ... then, Nick, maybe you ought to think about sending me back that check that I sent to your son.''

Walsh, in fact, hadn't yet contributed to Smith's son's campaign - although he did so several weeks later.

Smith cast his vote early and could have left the House chamber, but remembers thinking, ''I should stay there and take my licks.'' He told the committee that 20 or 30 members might have approached him during the nearly three hours the vote was held open. In an interview earlier this year, he said 40 to 60 lawmakers pressured him.

Committee investigators tried to learn the correct number by reviewing a tape from C-SPAN, the cable network that televises all House sessions. The results were disappointing.

''After the first approximately 15 minutes of the time that the vote was held open, the camera remained focused on the other side of the chamber from where Rep. Smith was sitting,'' the committee lamented.

Smith said Friday the report failed to make one crucial point.

''What seems to be lost in the debate ... is the fact that many members refused to vote for the Medicare bill despite enormous pressure,'' he said.

AP-NY-10-01-04 21:52 EDT

Copyright 2004 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. All active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.

Speaking of  DeLay-This just in

Tom DeLay's Ethics Breach
Panel Releases Quotes Impugning House Leader



That's right...DeLay offers a bribe to another Congressman right on the House floor during a vote, and all he gets is a slap on the wrist.  Ditto Hastert, Miller, and Thompson.

Bear in mind, DeLay was the man behind the arm-twisting tactics to raise the sanctions against President Clinton from censure to impeachment...over what?  Sex and lying about it.

Hypocrisy isn't a strong enough wors here!

DeLay and Co. should be on trial right now!

That's right...DeLay offers a bribe to another Congressman right on the House floor during a vote, and all he gets is a slap on the wrist.  Ditto Hastert, Miller, and Thompson.

Bear in mind, DeLay was the man behind the arm-twisting tactics to raise the sanctions against President Clinton from censure to impeachment...over what?  Sex and lying about it.

Hypocrisy isn't a strong enough wors here!

DeLay and Co. should be on trial right now!


I'm not going to say it again, Clinton stood up, said: ''I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help me God,'' lied anyway, and got off free.  Me, you, and anyone else here would have gotten FIVE (5) YEARS in JAIL for that crap.  Clinton gets to stay in office and later take bribes to let crooks out of jail. 

As for DeLay, i'm not fan.  I like Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist better.

I'm not going to say it again, Clinton stood up, said: ''I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help me God,'' lied anyway, and got off free.  Me, you, and anyone else here would have gotten FIVE (5) YEARS in JAIL for that crap.  Clinton gets to stay in office and later take bribes to let crooks out of jail. 

As for DeLay, i'm not fan.  I like Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist better.


And what should one get for engineering the disenfranchisement of 56,000 legally registered voters?

A lot of people have problems saying what class they are.



My point  exactly, and the rest of your post continues to demonstrate the confusion.  If you define class as quabtitative - how much you make, how much status your job carries, etc. than class reall doesn't exist.  On the other hand, if you think of class as qualitative - do I or do I not own the means of production - than class is a real phenomenon and my interests, as a non-owner, become clear, as do the interests of my employer, and they are diametrically opposed.

I doubt that Billy boy got $300.  Why, you may ask?  Because hubby and I got jack squat because "he made too much $$ last year" and he sure as heck doesn't make NEARLY as much as BG.


If that is true, then there goes the ''tax cuts for the rich'' garbage.

And what should one get for engineering the disenfranchisement of 56,000 legally registered voters?


There is a simple answer to that: one can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt and one can't.

There is a simple answer to that: one can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt and one can't.


GWB, you really must be delusional.  10's of thousands of voters WERE disenfranchised in Florida in 2000, and that election will go down in history as the most currupt in our history.  Own it, live with it.  Your guy is a f***ing fraud, a lier, a draft doddger, a whimp, and an intellectual  light weight who can't (doesn't) read the news papers (or anything else).  He is an illiterate little ignoramous who has his position only due to family connections.

If that is true, then there goes the ''tax cuts for the rich'' garbage.

If "hubby" got no tax breaks last year, he'd better hire himself a new accountant and a new attorney!
Bill Gates is on a whole other level of tax breaks, loopholes, and write-offs.

There is a simple answer to that: one can be proved beyond a reasonable doubt and one can't.


It was proven... in open court... As we have already shown you...Anyone at all involved in politics in the USA is aware of that. Whenever you try to dispute it you show a lack of political knowledge that diminishes your ability to be taken seriously when discussing serious political issues.