A British Muslim named Yusuf Islam was denied entry into the United States this week.  Islam is better known as Cat Stevens.  The worldwide pop star had chart topping hits with songs such as "Peace Train," "Morning Has Broken," "Wild World," and "Matthew & Son."  Upon converting to Islam in 1977, he adopted the name "Yusuf Islam" and retired from the music business.  He has worked for the past decades as an educator, organizer, and charity administrator for the Muslim community in Great Britain.
He gained noteriety in 1989 when statements he made regarding the book The Satanic Verses by Salman Rushdie were misrepresented by the media.
The following article was published in 2003, and deals with the issues at hand fifteen years ago during the Rushdie controversy.  They are again relevant as right-wing pundits such as Sean Hannity on Fox News are saying Y. Islam endorsed the Fatwa against Rushdie by the Ayatollah.  I hope this article will clarify the matter. 
I don't agree with Islam's general condemnation of Rushdie's book, but then again, I'm not a practicing Muslim.  I'm just sick of hearing this rubbish presented as truth.

http://catstevens.com/articles/00236/

Wow, they deported the guy who wrote Peace Train...


:D

Wow, they deported the guy who wrote Peace Train...


:D


Yea, he's an f#*%ing terrorist!  Isn't anyone who supports peace? (he says sarcastically)

I think it's rather unfortunate. He was an easy target. It seems like if you are associated with the Muslim faith, you support terrorism. I better be careful, then. I know many muslims, so I may be on the list. I don't see him as a threat.

Tanya

They did mention that this was his 3rd or 4th trip to the USA since 9/11 and he
never had a problem.  He has even been to D.C.  All of the sudden there is new
information(probably about 10 years old).

*Raises right hand high*

HEIL BUSH!

*Lowers hand*

(End sarcasm)

OK, let's face it, Bush is a racist, a Christian supremacist, and a hater of Muslims; the war on Iraq is nothing but poorly-justified genocide, and Guantanamo Bay is an intenrment camp.

Honestly, we're looking at a bizarre fusion of Hitler and Roosevelt, but mostly Hitler, in Dubya, and he's got to go.

This country is supposed to be about equal rights, and, while I was unaware that Stevens was British and was outraged that "a US citizen" would be denied entry in such a fashion, I still feel the spirit of my outrage still stands.

The Nazis are back and they're in the White House.

Join the Resistance!  Vote Kerry!

*Raises right hand high*

HEIL BUSH!

*Lowers hand*

(End sarcasm)

OK, let's face it, Bush is a racist, a Christian supremacist, and a hater of Muslims; the war on Iraq is nothing but poorly-justified genocide, and Guantanamo Bay is an intenrment camp.

Honestly, we're looking at a bizarre fusion of Hitler and Roosevelt, but mostly Hitler, in Dubya, and he's got to go.

This country is supposed to be about equal rights, and, while I was unaware that Stevens was British and was outraged that "a US citizen" would be denied entry in such a fashion, I still feel the spirit of my outrage still stands.

The Nazis are back and they're in the White House.

Join the Resistance!  Vote Kerry!

I haven't heard that Bush himself had any say in denying entry to Yusuf Islam (aka Cat), but it is a good example of the Administration's take on homeland security.  "Uh, like the guy's name is Islam, let's get him outta here!"  Meanwhile, the country's border's are all loose as a goose, and we have the budget to inspect less than 10% of the containers that come through our ports.

I was also disgusted by Dennis Miller's remarks that Y.Islam deserved to be deported just because of his name.  Miller is the *ssh*le who also in 1989 jumped on the bogus story about Y. Islam endorsing the Fatwa against Salman Rushdie, which he never did.  On the other, hand it was the whole media that had a frenzy about that, but Miller was particularly obnoxious, as he always is.

BTW, I saw Salman Rushdie on C-Span today.  What was he doing?  Blasting the Bush Administration.  The ingrate!  After all they did to protect him from Cat Stevens!

I wonder if he was in 1st-class or coach?

Why can't I ever sit next to someone like Cat Stevens. That would be so cool and interesting!
Would I even know it was him?

He's one of my favorite artists of the '70s.

:(

Hey Philbo (AKA Mr. Parody  ;))

Any chance of writing a parody of Father and Son about this? I can come up with the idea but not cleaver enough to come up with the lyric.




Cat

It might work, Cat - DKTOS, but I've had a look at the lyric, and there's a few things that'll fit well... have to call it "Dubya and Cat" or some such...

I haven't heard that Bush himself had any say in denying entry to Yusuf Islam (aka Cat), but it is a good example of the Administration's take on homeland security.  "Uh, like the guy's name is Islam, let's get him outta here!"  Meanwhile, the country's border's are all loose as a goose, and we have the budget to inspect less than 10% of the containers that come through our ports.



You know why the Bush administration uses the term Homeland?  Fatherland was already taken.

You know why the Bush administration uses the term Homeland?  Fatherland was already taken.



Touche



Cat

This just in from AOL news

"I was devastated," Islam wrote. "The unbelievable thing is that only two months earlier, I had been having meetings in Washington with top officials from the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives to talk about my charity work.

"Had I changed that much? No. Actually, it's the indiscriminate procedure of profiling that's changed," Islam wrote. "I am a victim of an unjust and arbitrary system, hastily imposed, that serves only to belittle America's image as a defender of the civil liberties that so many dearly struggled and died for over the centuries."

Since he converted to Islam in 1977, he said, there have been repeated efforts to link him to violent causes and groups.

"I denounce all forms of terrorism and injustice; it is simply outrageous for anyone to suggest otherwise," he said, noting he has spoken out against the Sept. 11 attacks and the taking of hostages in Iraq.

He has largely shunned music in recent years, although he did record a new version of his 1971 hit "Peace Train" last year for the album "Hope," which raised money for Iraqi children. Others participating in the project were Paul McCartney, David Bowie and Avril Lavigne.

This just in from AOL news

"I was devastated," Islam wrote. "The unbelievable thing is that only two months earlier, I had been having meetings in Washington with top officials from the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives to talk about my charity work.

"Had I changed that much? No. Actually, it's the indiscriminate procedure of profiling that's changed," Islam wrote. "I am a victim of an unjust and arbitrary system, hastily imposed, that serves only to belittle America's image as a defender of the civil liberties that so many dearly struggled and died for over the centuries."

Since he converted to Islam in 1977, he said, there have been repeated efforts to link him to violent causes and groups.

"I denounce all forms of terrorism and injustice; it is simply outrageous for anyone to suggest otherwise," he said, noting he has spoken out against the Sept. 11 attacks and the taking of hostages in Iraq.

He has largely shunned music in recent years, although he did record a new version of his 1971 hit "Peace Train" last year for the album "Hope," which raised money for Iraqi children. Others participating in the project were Paul McCartney, David Bowie and Avril Lavigne.

This incident succeeds in making homeland security look incompentent when Y.Islam had been admitted only a few months ago by invitation of the office of Faith Based Community Initiatives. 
Of course, Muslim-bashers like Dennis Miller won't point that out.

This just in from AOL news
Since he converted to Islam in 1977, he said, there have been repeated efforts to link him to violent causes and groups.

"I denounce all forms of terrorism and injustice; it is simply outrageous for anyone to suggest otherwise," he said, noting he has spoken out against the Sept. 11 attacks and the taking of hostages in Iraq.


How about these quotes by Yusuf Islam?

“The Jews seem neither to respect God nor his creation. Their own holy books contain the curse of God brought upon them by their prophets on account of their disobedience to Him and mischief in the earth. We have seen the disrespect for religion displayed by those who consider themselves to be 'God's chosen people.'...There will be no justice until all the land is given back to its rightful owners... Only Islam can bring peace back to the Holy Land.”

And that quote comes from a pamphlet he wrote for HAMAS!  He has given money to HAMAS in the past, which almost nobody denies is a terrorist organization.

He also helped sponsor a boycott against Starbucks, because the CEO is Jewish.

He was also the main speaker in 1996 for Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), another HAMAS front organization.  CAIR is one of the groups that considers the jailing of Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman (the mastermind of the 1993 WTC bombing) as a "hate crime".  They consider HAMAS as patriotic as Patrick Henry, and HAMAS, Al-Queda and Hezbollah "freedom fighters".

Less then a month after the 9/11 attacks, Yusuf Islam met with radical Islamic Cleric Sheikh Hamza Yusuf.  Sheikh Yusuf has publically stated that 9/11 are "God's Punismhent on the US", and claims that the 2 world wars in Europe are God's punishment on Europeans because of the Crusades.

In a conference in 1995, Yusuf Islam said “The Jews would have us believe that God has this bias to this little small tribe in the Middle of the Sinai desert and all the rest of humanity is just rubbish. I mean that this is the basic doctrine of the Jewish religion and that's why it is a most racist religion."

Cat may have been a good singer at one time, but that does not mean he can not be a suporter of terrorism.  He has often spoken at fundraisers (and is reported to have given money) to groups like HAMAS and Hezbollah.  Those are terrorist organizations.  Plain and simple, he is a "Bad Cat".

How about these quotes by Yusuf Islam?

“The Jews seem neither to respect God nor his creation. Their own holy books contain the curse of God brought upon them by their prophets on account of their disobedience to Him and mischief in the earth. We have seen the disrespect for religion displayed by those who consider themselves to be 'God's chosen people.'...There will be no justice until all the land is given back to its rightful owners... Only Islam can bring peace back to the Holy Land.”

And that quote comes from a pamphlet he wrote for HAMAS!  He has given money to HAMAS in the past, which almost nobody denies is a terrorist organization.

He also helped sponsor a boycott against Starbucks, because the CEO is Jewish.

He was also the main speaker in 1996 for Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), another HAMAS front organization.  CAIR is one of the groups that considers the jailing of Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman (the mastermind of the 1993 WTC bombing) as a "hate crime".  They consider HAMAS as patriotic as Patrick Henry, and HAMAS, Al-Queda and Hezbollah "freedom fighters".

Less then a month after the 9/11 attacks, Yusuf Islam met with radical Islamic Cleric Sheikh Hamza Yusuf.  Sheikh Yusuf has publically stated that 9/11 are "God's Punismhent on the US", and claims that the 2 world wars in Europe are God's punishment on Europeans because of the Crusades.

In a conference in 1995, Yusuf Islam said “The Jews would have us believe that God has this bias to this little small tribe in the Middle of the Sinai desert and all the rest of humanity is just rubbish. I mean that this is the basic doctrine of the Jewish religion and that's why it is a most racist religion."

Cat may have been a good singer at one time, but that does not mean he can not be a suporter of terrorism.  He has often spoken at fundraisers (and is reported to have given money) to groups like HAMAS and Hezbollah.  Those are terrorist organizations.  Plain and simple, he is a "Bad Cat".

Sources?

How about these quotes by Yusuf Islam?

“The Jews seem neither to respect God nor his creation. Their own holy books contain the curse of God brought upon them by their prophets on account of their disobedience to Him and mischief in the earth. We have seen the disrespect for religion displayed by those who consider themselves to be 'God's chosen people.'...There will be no justice until all the land is given back to its rightful owners... Only Islam can bring peace back to the Holy Land.”

And that quote comes from a pamphlet he wrote for HAMAS!  He has given money to HAMAS in the past, which almost nobody denies is a terrorist organization.

He also helped sponsor a boycott against Starbucks, because the CEO is Jewish.

He was also the main speaker in 1996 for Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), another HAMAS front organization.  CAIR is one of the groups that considers the jailing of Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman (the mastermind of the 1993 WTC bombing) as a "hate crime".  They consider HAMAS as patriotic as Patrick Henry, and HAMAS, Al-Queda and Hezbollah "freedom fighters".

Less then a month after the 9/11 attacks, Yusuf Islam met with radical Islamic Cleric Sheikh Hamza Yusuf.  Sheikh Yusuf has publically stated that 9/11 are "God's Punismhent on the US", and claims that the 2 world wars in Europe are God's punishment on Europeans because of the Crusades.

In a conference in 1995, Yusuf Islam said “The Jews would have us believe that God has this bias to this little small tribe in the Middle of the Sinai desert and all the rest of humanity is just rubbish. I mean that this is the basic doctrine of the Jewish religion and that's why it is a most racist religion."

Cat may have been a good singer at one time, but that does not mean he can not be a suporter of terrorism.  He has often spoken at fundraisers (and is reported to have given money) to groups like HAMAS and Hezbollah.  Those are terrorist organizations.  Plain and simple, he is a "Bad Cat".



CAIR is not a front-group, present evidence to support that, or shut it. CAIR is a civil rights organization for American Muslims, and has helped people in hundreds of cases. CAIR helps to represent the Muslim-American community in Washington, a community with very little representation.

As for your comments about Shiekh Hamza Yusuf Hanson, provide sources to substantiate it, because quite frankly, I don't buy it.

I myself am an ex-Muslim, and in my time as a Muslim, I read many articles and listened to many sermons by this fellow, and I must say, the idea of Sheikh Hanson being an extremist is laughable. Many clerics have complained of him as being Sufi-istic in outlook(the Sufi's are a non-political mystical movement in Islam), and people have accused him of being a puppet of the Bush administration. Sheikh Hanson is NO terrorist. Sheikh Omar Bakri over in the UK, a good chance of it. I mean, Jimmy Swaggart is more extemist than this guy.

Have you been listening to Franklin Graham? Because the CAIR=HAMAS front is a very common piece of Islamophobic propaganda, and is no better than the crap Usamah bin Laden spews.

Sources?


You know, I add sources to 3/4 of my posts, and you either ignore them, or claim they are not real.  I will do it again though, just to make you happy.

BTW: How is quoting Fox News, NewsMax or other sources "Not Valid", while quoting from Cat Steven's own web site claiming he is not a radical accurate?  COme on Maxwell, "Fair And Ballanced".

http://www.vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2004/09/163470.php
http://www.wnyc.org/discuss/soapbox.html?message_id=45625
http://www.elitestv.com/pub/2004/Sep/EEN41519c77eabb6.html
http://www.politicalusa.com/columnists/schlussel/schlussel_026.htm
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Salman%20Rushdie
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Yusuf%20Islam
http://www.truthnews.net/world/2004090190.htm
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/_/id/5922705/catstevens?pageid=rs.Artistcage&pageregion=triple3

Do I need to post any more?

You know, I add sources to 3/4 of my posts, and you either ignore them, or claim they are not real.  I will do it again though, just to make you happy.

BTW: How is quoting Fox News, NewsMax or other sources "Not Valid", while quoting from Cat Steven's own web site claiming he is not a radical accurate?  COme on Maxwell, "Fair And Ballanced".


The connections of Yusef Islam to anti-Jewish terrorist groups is a fantastical conspiratorial stretch.  If Islam said some critical things about Judaism, SO WHAT?  The aggregate of his work over the past 25 years has been overwhelmingly positive unless you're ready to equate the religion of Islam with terrorism, as many on the American right are happy to do.

Larry King just interviewed Mr Islam (Cat - I like that name) and it looks like this is another example of the intrusaivness of this fascist "homeland security" police state we are initiating.  The man appears to be dedicated to peace and understandsing, not violence.  I guess that's good enough reason to keep him out of our neo-fascist state.  Good Lord, wouldn't want anyone coming in advocating peace and understanding.

Larry King just interviewed Mr Islam (Cat - I like that name) and it looks like this is another example of the intrusaivness of this fascist "homeland security" police state we are initiating.  The man appears to be dedicated to peace and understandsing, not violence.  I guess that's good enough reason to keep him out of our neo-fascist state.  Good Lord, wouldn't want anyone coming in advocating peace and understanding.

I saw the same interview.  You can tell when a person is spiritually centered and at peace.  Yusuf Islam is one of those people.  The strength of an honest and peaceful mind completely secure is something I hope to have before my time is up.  It is not a sense you get from purveyors of phoney religion--Pat Robertson, Jerry Fallwell, Louis Farrakhan and those sorts--who inspire disgust in their detractors, and self-righteous egoism in their followers.
Cat Stevens was always a comforting voice in my troubled early life, so I have very good associations with his music.  His songs were a bit too
gushy and sentimental at times for a snarky and ironic world, but many of the messages drew on a simple, ecumenical wisdom appreciable at any age.
I have a CD of Yusuf Islam reading "The Life of The Last Prophet."

You know, I add sources to 3/4 of my posts, and you either ignore them, or claim they are not real.  I will do it again though, just to make you happy.

BTW: How is quoting Fox News, NewsMax or other sources "Not Valid", while quoting from Cat Steven's own web site claiming he is not a radical accurate?  COme on Maxwell, "Fair And Ballanced".

http://www.vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2004/09/163470.php
http://www.wnyc.org/discuss/soapbox.html?message_id=45625
http://www.elitestv.com/pub/2004/Sep/EEN41519c77eabb6.html
http://www.politicalusa.com/columnists/schlussel/schlussel_026.htm
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Salman%20Rushdie
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Yusuf%20Islam
http://www.truthnews.net/world/2004090190.htm
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/_/id/5922705/catstevens?pageid=rs.Artistcage&pageregion=triple3

Do I need to post any more?
I randomly clicked on 2 of these "sources".......the second one I went to was the "Truth News" (now thats a laugh........TRUTH News......I think not) site. The FIRST 2 lines in the article were
" Cat Stevens caught the bug of Arab/Islamist fever. Ever since it has affected his heart mind, and soul."
Can you not see the wrong in a statement like that?!? Bottom line is, Cat/Yusuf is being persecuted because of his RELIGIOUS BELIEFS!! I honestly believe that half of the supporters of this administration would prefer to live in a police state..........the other half is just so naive and scared by their rhetoric that they will support any policy that tells them "We will protect you from the EVIL DO ERS!" "Lets GET THEM BEFORE THEY GET US!" "If you're not WITH US, YOU'RE AGAINST US!"   

(Cat - I like that name)


I do too.  ;)

Personally, I think it has to do with the fact that he is Muslim. This Administration is bringing us closer and closer to a new Inquisition/Holocaust only instead of the Jews as the main target, it is the Muslims. I am surprised that Bushies have not set up internment camps for Muslims. But, that may happen if they win the election. They seem to be in the mindset that Muslim=terrorist. That becomes a very dangerous precedence.



Cat

BTW: How is quoting Fox News, NewsMax or other sources "Not Valid", while quoting from Cat Steven's own web site claiming he is not a radical accurate?  COme on Maxwell, "Fair And Ballanced".




THANK YOU!  When the same people who say those sources are unfair and untrue start quoting stuff from The New York Times or the Communist News Network (CNN), you can just see the tilt.

BTW: How is quoting Fox News,..."Not Valid",


I'm not familiar with the other sources you mentioned, buy "Fox News" is a contradiction in terms.  Get a hold of a film called Out Foxed which demonstrates, using Fox clips, interviews with employees and former employees, and memos etc, how Fox slants the news, distorts facts, and in some cases manufactures the news.  It is a propoganda network that would give Joseph Goerbles (sp) not just an erection, but a climax.

It's odd but I'm glad they pulled Cat Stevens off that plane. I truly like the guy as much as anybody but it sends a message to anyone thinking a using a plane flight for something other than getting from point A to point B: Airport security is a little tighter than it was before 9/11/2001.

And everyone please spare me the POOR, POOR MUSLIM crap.

I remember when American John Walker was captured in Afghanistan it was said the other Muslims he schooled with in Saudi Arabia made fun of his conversion to Islam and always called him Yusuf Islam -- that is, not a real Muslim to be taken serious just a silly non-Arab convert.

I refuse to treat a Muslim any better than I would a Christian, Jew or any other religion. They're not deserving or worthy of it.

I must say that I think all three of these western religions are dangerous because each claims to have a lock on the truth and a direct link to God.  Followers of each claim to be the "chosen people", and that leads to the conversion impulse - you MUST follow my beliefs to be saved.  This is least true of Judaism to be sure, but all are, IM not so HO dangerous.

It's odd but I'm glad they pulled Cat Stevens off that plane. I truly like the guy as much as anybody but it sends a message to anyone thinking a using a plane flight for something other than getting from point A to point B: Airport security is a little tighter than it was before 9/11/2001.

WTF has airport security got to do with anything?  I suppose you'd think it was a good idea to refuse *you* entry because
somebody who knows a suspected terrorist has a similar name to yours?  That's the credibility levels we're talking about here... oh, but it's OK 'cause he's a muslim, right?


And everyone please spare me the POOR, POOR MUSLIM crap.

I refuse to treat a Muslim any better than I would a Christian, Jew or any other religion. They're not deserving or worthy of it.

Does this even-handedness go so far as not to treat a Muslim any worse?  Which is what they have done.

Cat Stevens (Yusuf Islam) or whatever you want to call him has spent more than a decade calling for peace and tolerance - he was allowed into the US only a few months ago, and nothing (for him) has changed since, except that the US now has somebody with the a similar name on their watch list.

It's odd but I'm glad they pulled Cat Stevens off that plane. I truly like the guy as much as anybody but it sends a message to anyone thinking a using a plane flight for something other than getting from point A to point B: Airport security is a little tighter than it was before 9/11/2001.

And everyone please spare me the POOR, POOR MUSLIM crap.

I remember when American John Walker was captured in Afghanistan it was said the other Muslims he schooled with in Saudi Arabia made fun of his conversion to Islam and always called him Yusuf Islam -- that is, not a real Muslim to be taken serious just a silly non-Arab convert.

I refuse to treat a Muslim any better than I would a Christian, Jew or any other religion. They're not deserving or worthy of it.


WTF is right!  Yusuf Islam has been bouncing back and forth across the Atlantic like a ping pong ball and it only in late September 2004 do they realize he's on a "no fly" list.  If you're big on "homeland security" you've gotta admit this demonstrates a gigantic failure.
Further more, they have not been able to plausibly linke Islam's charity work with any group that supports terrorism.  He doesn't belong on a "no-fly" list unless we want a government agency as stupid as Mr. Dennis Miller and just refuse anybody with a Muslim name to fly.
Furthermore, Mr. Zcrito, to paint all Muslims with one broad brush is bigotry, plain and simple.  Are all Christians the same?  Do you know the difference between a Unitarian and and Pentecostal?  Do you know the difference between a Catholic and a Baptist?  Islam is just as varied and complex as Christianity.
Furthermore, the Koran makes it perfectly clear, violent acts that take innocent lives are an abomination.  Period.

I do too.  ;)

Personally, I think it has to do with the fact that he is Muslim. This Administration is bringing us closer and closer to a new Inquisition/Holocaust only instead of the Jews as the main target, it is the Muslims. I am surprised that Bushies have not set up internment camps for Muslims. But, that may happen if they win the election. They seem to be in the mindset that Muslim=terrorist. That becomes a very dangerous precedence.



Cat
Thank you Cat! I was chastised by a friend the other day for comparing what is going on today in this country (ie Muslim persecution) with the Holocaust. I also argued that in 50 or 60 years, the way this administration has twisted facts, completely exaggerated how much of a threat Iraq was to us and the world, and  used obvious scare tactics to get backing for it's policy, will be compared with the McCarthy era and the days of the "Unamerican Activities" hearings and trials that devestated the lives of many innocent Americans.

Thank you Cat! I was chastised by a friend the other day for comparing what is going on today in this country (ie Muslim persecution) with the Holocaust. I also argued that in 50 or 60 years, the way this administration has twisted facts, completely exaggerated how much of a threat Iraq was to us and the world, and  used obvious scare tactics to get backing for it's policy, will be compared with the McCarthy era and the days of the "Unamerican Activities" hearings and trials that devestated the lives of many innocent Americans.



I am very glad that I am not the only one who sees this. I feel that this is daja vu all over again. History is repeating itself. You would think that we will learn from the mistakes of the past of it is obvious that we have not. Which is a travisty.



Cat

I am very glad that I am not the only one who sees this. I feel that this is daja vu all over again. History is repeating itself. You would think that we will learn from the mistakes of the past of it is obvious that we have not. Which is a travisty.



Cat

Oh, I see it too.  I have from the start.  It's all namecalling, scapegoating, railroading, intimidation, paranoia.  Just replace "communism" with "terrorism."

I agree with Cat as well.


And all these Islamophobes, they cannot be pleased. You can't appease them like you couldn't appease Hitler. They complain that the Muslim-American community hasn't denounced terrorism, which is 100% false, hundreds of imams from across the country continue to release condemnations in regards to terrorist attacks, all of the major Muslim organizations have condemnded 9/11 and terrorism, but it doesn't matter.

These idiots(and yes you are xenophobic idiots) will continue to accuse politically bi-partisan religiously moderate organizations like CAIR and the ISNA of supporting terrorism, without giving real evidence. It doesn't matter that the Federal gov't doesn't see them this way, as long as crazies like Daniel Pipes say so its the gospel.  You know why these organizations are seen by these fanatics as 'terrorism-supporting'? The simple fact they stand up for the rights and reputation of the Muslim community, the fact they won't lie down and take it when freakos like Falwell and Graham degrade their religion and community with vast generalizations, that is what makes them 'terrorist' in their eyes.

And no amount of condemnation, or loyalty shown by Western Muslims  is enough for these people. History will not judge them kindly.

For Islam, a so called religion of peace, they sure have added a lot of hate in the world. In just the last 4 years: numerous suicide/homicide bombings in Israel, almost 3000 killed on 9/11/2001, bombings in Indonesia and elsewhere in the world by Al-Qaida, 28 hostages taken in Iraq since summer where some were beheaded (and another was just the day before), and now genocide in Sudan.  I wonder what percent of so called moderate Muslims approve of these acts or figure the world deserves it or just had it coming? Or maybe they just don't care.

Muslims need to quit seeing themselves as victims and stop persecuting the rest of the world. They need to deal with their hatred and distrust of the non-Muslim world. And they need to learn to accept and become tolerant of those who don't share their religious believes, economic view or who are just different.

It's sad with all the hate Muslims are dumping on the world I'm surprised anyone would think someone (a non-citizen at that) getting kicked off a plane would matter all that much.
:(

(does anyone else remember the song "Freezing Steel" off of Catch Bull at Four? It's been going on in my head for the past week)

Muslims need to quit seeing themselves as victims and stop persecuting the rest of the world.
I think you need to turn off the Fox News Channel, or whatever propaganda you're osmosing, and take a cursory survey of current events around the world.  If you get it even in the right ballpark, your answer as to who is doing most of the "persecuting" will be quite different!
::)

For Islam, a so called religion of peace, they sure have added a lot of hate in the world. In just the last 4 years: numerous suicide/homicide bombings in Israel, almost 3000 killed on 9/11/2001, bombings in Indonesia and elsewhere in the world by Al-Qaida, 28 hostages taken in Iraq since summer where some were beheaded (and another was just the day before), and now genocide in Sudan.  I wonder what percent of so called moderate Muslims approve of these acts or figure the world deserves it or just had it coming? Or maybe they just don't care.

Muslims need to quit seeing themselves as victims and stop persecuting the rest of the world. They need to deal with their hatred and distrust of the non-Muslim world. And they need to learn to accept and become tolerant of those who don't share their religious believes, economic view or who are just different.

It's sad with all the hate Muslims are dumping on the world I'm surprised anyone would think someone (a non-citizen at that) getting kicked off a plane would matter all that much.
:(

(does anyone else remember the song "Freezing Steel" off of Catch Bull at Four? It's been going on in my head for the past week)

Your post just solidifys everything that Cat, Smart Max,  El Duderino, and myself posted. Can you not see that the  fanatical idiots that perpetuated the attacks mentioned in your rant no more represent the view and thinking of the overwhelming majority of the Muslim world any more than Tim McVeigh's bombing of the Federal Building in Ok. or atrocities  carried out by Neo Nazi skinheads, Right wing hate groups, or the KKK represent YOUR take on things.................then again, maybe they do. :-\\

Your post just solidifys everything that Cat, Smart Max,  El Duderino, and myself posted. Can you not see that the  fanatical idiots that perpetuated the attacks mentioned in your rant no more represent the view and thinking of the overwhelming majority of the Muslim world any more than Tim McVeigh's bombing of the Federal Building in Ok. or atrocities  carried out by Neo Nazi skinheads, Right wing hate groups, or the KKK represent YOUR take on things.................then again, maybe they do. :-\\


"Can you not see that the  fanatical idiots that perpetuated the attacks mentioned in your rant no more represent the view and thinking of the overwhelming majority of the Muslim world..."  -- How do you know that??  ???
(and hey, I don't "rant"  >:(  I like talking to people about "stuff" and I'm interested in what others think)

"...or atrocities  carried out by Neo Nazi skinheads, Right wing hate groups, or the KKK represent YOUR take on things.................then again, maybe they do."  ;D ;D

I think you need to turn off the Fox News Channel, or whatever propaganda you're osmosing, and take a cursory survey of current events around the world.  If you get it even in the right ballpark, your answer as to who is doing most of the "persecuting" will be quite different!
::)


"I think you need to turn off the Fox News Channel, or whatever propaganda you're osmosing..."  ;D ;D (for the most part CNN, Yahoo News and the local paper)

"If you get it even in the right ballpark, your answer as to who is doing most of the "persecuting" will be quite different!" -- Ok, I give, who is it?  ???

"Can you not see that the  fanatical idiots that perpetuated the attacks mentioned in your rant no more represent the view and thinking of the overwhelming majority of the Muslim world..."  -- How do you know that??  ???
(and hey, I don't "rant"  >:(  I like talking to people about "stuff" and I'm interested in what others think)

"...or atrocities  carried out by Neo Nazi skinheads, Right wing hate groups, or the KKK represent YOUR take on things.................then again, maybe they do."  ;D ;D






"Can you not see that the  fanatical idiots that perpetuated the attacks mentioned in your rant no more represent the view and thinking of the overwhelming majority of the Muslim world..."  -- How do you know that??  ???
(and hey, I don't "rant"  >:(  I like talking to people about "stuff" and I'm interested in what others think)

"...or atrocities  carried out by Neo Nazi skinheads, Right wing hate groups, or the KKK represent YOUR take on things.................then again, maybe they do."  ;D ;D



Don't worry about stuff like this, zcrito. You keep on talking. I enjoy your posts :)

"Can you not see that the fanatical idiots that perpetuated the attacks mentioned in your rant no more represent the view and thinking of the overwhelming majority of the Muslim world..." -- How do you know that?? ???

If the *majority* of Muslims (or even a significant minority) behaved the way the fanatics do, the whole world would be in turmoil, and you'd be talking millions of deaths per year.  Rather like what the world would be like if the majority of Christians were KKK-types or similar.


Don't worry about stuff like this, zcrito. You keep on talking. I enjoy your posts :)

But you don't think they're accurate, surely?

Yes, there are Muslims who are terrorists-just like there are Christians who are also terrorists, and Jews who are terrorists. But, (if I am not mistaken) the Koran DOES NOT promote violence-just like the Bible or the Torah. These people use their religion to promote hate and violence. We have to learn to separate those fundamentalist from the true believers. We should not condemn ALL because of a few. That is how hate is perpetuated. If we all learn to hate based on someone's religion, race, political beliefs, etc. then I think that the terrorists won. They want war. They want killing. If we start targeting Muslims-only because they are Muslims, then those non-violent Muslims will become angry. They may feel that violence is the only way to be heard, and thus, more violence, more killing, etc. Hate begets hate and violence begets violence. "Another eye for another eye until everyone is blind."



Cat

But you don't think they're accurate, surely?


I was simply referring to certain people getting all pissy about this guys opinion...that's all.

Yes, there are Muslims who are terrorists-just like there are Christians who are also terrorists, and Jews who are terrorists. But, (if I am not mistaken) the Koran DOES NOT promote violence-just like the Bible or the Torah. These people use their religion to promote hate and violence. We have to learn to separate those fundamentalist from the true believers. We should not condemn ALL because of a few. That is how hate is perpetuated. If we all learn to hate based on someone's religion, race, political beliefs, etc. then I think that the terrorists won. They want war. They want killing. If we start targeting Muslims-only because they are Muslims, then those non-violent Muslims will become angry. They may feel that violence is the only way to be heard, and thus, more violence, more killing, etc. Hate begets hate and violence begets violence. "Another eye for another eye until everyone is blind."



Cat

Bravo, Cat,well said!

"If you get it even in the right ballpark, your answer as to who is doing most of the "persecuting" will be quite different!" -- Ok, I give, who is it?  ???





I'm not kidding.  You're a smart fellow, go find out!  I'm not here to tell you in the least that Muslim nations DON'T persecute their people, because they most certainly DO!  I'm talking about persecution on the world stage.  Look at colonial history for the past 100 years.  Look at relations between European and American power and the Muslim world in the past century.  That's what I'm talking about.

If the *majority* of Muslims (or even a significant minority) behaved the way the fanatics do, the whole world would be in turmoil, and you'd be talking millions of deaths per year.  Rather like what the world would be like if the majority of Christians were KKK-types or similar.

But you don't think they're accurate, surely?


"If the *majority* of Muslims (or even a significant minority) behaved the way the fanatics do...". -- who said anything about behavior, we were talking about "...the view and thinking..." of Muslims. How do you know what the vast majority of Muslims "think" every time Al-Qaida does something awful? Al-Qaida didn't get to where it's at today without some sort of support from other "moderate" Muslims.

"If the *majority* of Muslims (or even a significant minority) behaved the way the fanatics do...". -- who said anything about behavior, we were talking about "...the view and thinking..." of Muslims. How do you know what the vast majority of Muslims "think" every time Al-Qaida does something awful? Al-Qaida didn't get to where it's at today without some sort of support from other "moderate" Muslims.





So when do you guys have the 'Final Solution' planned?

Yes, there are Muslims who are terrorists-just like there are Christians who are also terrorists, and Jews who are terrorists. But, (if I am not mistaken) the Koran DOES NOT promote violence-just like the Bible or the Torah. These people use their religion to promote hate and violence. We have to learn to separate those fundamentalist from the true believers. We should not condemn ALL because of a few. That is how hate is perpetuated. If we all learn to hate based on someone's religion, race, political beliefs, etc. then I think that the terrorists won. They want war. They want killing. If we start targeting Muslims-only because they are Muslims, then those non-violent Muslims will become angry. They may feel that violence is the only way to be heard, and thus, more violence, more killing, etc. Hate begets hate and violence begets violence. "Another eye for another eye until everyone is blind."



Cat


"These people use their religion to promote hate and violence. We have to learn to separate those fundamentalist from the true believers". -- I've got a better idea: why don't THEY learn to separate those fundamentalist from the true believers? They seem to be the one with the problem, not us.

Who said I or anyone hates Muslims. I'm only questioning the acts of people who say they're good Muslims. I'm also questioning why people who normally don't like or despise any religion suddenly defend and can't say enough kind things about a religion called Islam?

The unquestioning defense of and sympathy by three or four of you toward Islam is odd. Unless of course any of you is a Muslim then I'd understand. Is what you're saying based on Muslims you know or do you just think that's the way we should all think because it "sounds" right?  I wonder if we were talking about "born again" Christians you'd be as kind.

Do you people talk to Muslims often? If so, what's their opinion on say: women, Judaism (or any other religion), non-whites, homosexuals, lesbians, non-Arab Muslims, Iran, Israel, capitalism, separation of church and state...stuff like that. Are they as understanding and sympathetic to others and ideas the way you are of them?

Look at the Hindus in India and the economic success they've achieved in the last 10+ years. Look how Hindus act and behave and how they are treated here and elsewhere. Muslims could learn a thing or two from them.

"These people use their religion to promote hate and violence. We have to learn to separate those fundamentalist from the true believers". -- I've got a better idea: why don't THEY learn to separate those fundamentalist from the true believers? They seem to be the one with the problem, not us.

Who said I or anyone hates Muslims. I'm only questioning the acts of people who say they're good Muslims. I'm also questioning why people who normally don't like or despise any religion suddenly defend and can't say enough kind things about a religion called Islam?

The unquestioning defense of and sympathy by three or four of you toward Islam is odd. Unless of course any of you is a Muslim then I'd understand. Is what you're saying based on Muslims you know or do you just think that's the way we should all think because it "sounds" right?  I wonder if we were talking about "born again" Christians you'd be as kind.

Do you people talk to Muslims often? If so, what's their opinion on say: women, Judaism (or any other religion), non-whites, homosexuals, lesbians, non-Arab Muslims, Iran, Israel, capitalism, separation of church and state...stuff like that. Are they as understanding and sympathetic to others and ideas the way you are of them?

Look at the Hindus in India and the economic success they've achieved in the last 10+ years. Look how Hindus act and behave and how they are treated here and elsewhere. Muslims could learn a thing or two from them.




Well, I am an ex-Muslim so I guess that helps to give me the point of view on this I have. I do not like religion, yes, but I am not a naive enough fool to give Islam a particular bad label.

And to suggest Hindu's are all-peaceful and egalitarian is far from the truth, the Indian Muslims are treated like dogs***. Hindus have rioted and lynched Muslims before because the Muslims ate beef in a religious feast, Eid al-Fitr, and Eid al-Adha.

Don't worry about stuff like this, zcrito. You keep on talking. I enjoy your posts :)
"Stuff like" what, Mark? My opinion?
I was simply referring to certain people getting all pissy about this guys opinion...that's all.
I assume I'm the "certain people" you're talking about since you quoted my post by saying "Don't worry about stuff like this." And just what the h3ll does "getting all pissy" mean?

Al-Qaida didn't get to where it's at today without some sort of support from other "moderate" Muslims.

I agree with this statement.

How is it then they think of themselves as Muslims in the first place?

Yes, there are Muslims who are terrorists-just like there are Christians who are also terrorists, and Jews who are terrorists. But, (if I am not mistaken) the Koran DOES NOT promote violence-just like the Bible or the Torah. These people use their religion to promote hate and violence. We have to learn to separate those fundamentalist from the true believers. We should not condemn ALL because of a few. That is how hate is perpetuated. If we all learn to hate based on someone's religion, race, political beliefs, etc. then I think that the terrorists won. They want war. They want killing. If we start targeting Muslims-only because they are Muslims, then those non-violent Muslims will become angry. They may feel that violence is the only way to be heard, and thus, more violence, more killing, etc. Hate begets hate and violence begets violence. "Another eye for another eye until everyone is blind."

Cat




Well said, Cat.

We should not condemn ALL because of a few. That is how hate is perpetuated. If we all learn to hate based on someone's religion, race, political beliefs, etc. then I think that the terrorists won. They want war. They want killing.

Hate begets hate and violence begets violence. "Another eye for another eye until everyone is blind.". 

Don't worry about stuff like this, zcrito. You keep on talking. I enjoy your posts :)


RnRF,

If you have a valid opinion on the subject, even if you are just simply in agreement with a statement or post, please express it and end it at that.

But do not instigate trouble and then on top of that do it with empty responses. This type of thing leads to the possible removal of a thread and other repercussions.

I really dislike intervening as a mod like this.

"Stuff like" what, Mark? My opinion?

I assume I'm the "certain people" you're talking about since you quoted my post by saying "Don't worry about stuff like this." And just what the h3ll does "getting all pissy" mean?


Dude,

Let it go, man. I got this one already.

Mark, don't bother responding here either.

Let's agree that this particular piece of this thread is over, learn from our mistakes and move on.

Folks,

Please think about what you're posting and how you post it so as not to start a flame.

Thank you. :)

I agree with this statement.

How is it then they think of themselves as Muslims in the first place?

In much the same way as the IRA has been supported both passively and actively by the Catholic church and the American public: they pretend to themselves that these people they're supporting aren't the rabid fanatics that others may see them to be (though I'd say it's probably more likely that the Catholic church has supported the IRA because of the historical context - as an organization it seems to have a long memory for things like that)

I would love the Muslim communities round the world to be more vocal (and more active) in speaking out against the fundamentalists - but I am not going to condemn them for not doing more than they are at present.  And yes, I know that there has been a lot of condemnation from imams and spokesmen, but I'm not sure how much of it is being relayed to the people who ought to be hearing it.


The unquestioning defense of and sympathy by three or four of you toward Islam is odd. Unless of course any of you is a Muslim then I'd understand. Is what you're saying based on Muslims you know or do you just think that's the way we should all think because it "sounds" right? I wonder if we were talking about "born again" Christians you'd be as kind.

I haven't seen unquestioning defense of Islam in this thread - what I have seen is a dislike of unquestioning hostility, allied to a feeling that if you treat *all* Muslims with distrust and suspicion based on the actions of a few, you're very likely to get hostility back.


Do you people talk to Muslims often? If so, what's their opinion on say: women, Judaism (or any other religion), non-whites, homosexuals, lesbians, non-Arab Muslims, Iran, Israel, capitalism, separation of church and state...stuff like that. Are they as understanding and sympathetic to others and ideas the way you are of them?

Thinking of the various hues of people I've spoken to over the past few years, there were probably quite a few muslims in there, but religion ain't at the top of my list of things to ask someone about...

I do too.  ;)

Personally, I think it has to do with the fact that he is Muslim. This Administration is bringing us closer and closer to a new Inquisition/Holocaust only instead of the Jews as the main target, it is the Muslims. I am surprised that Bushies have not set up internment camps for Muslims. But, that may happen if they win the election. They seem to be in the mindset that Muslim=terrorist. That becomes a very dangerous precedence.



Cat


I can't prove it, but it is my understanding that our government has been maintaining "internment camps" for many years, ready to recieve who ever the "subversives" happen to be at the momoent.  So be careful, it could be YOU.

I agree with this statement.

How is it then they think of themselves as Muslims in the first place?


Hairspray is agreeing that " moderate Muslims" support Al Quida.

I'd really like to see some proof of this.  From what I have seen, most Muslims are appauled by Al Quida and its actions.  You are too intelligent to demonize. 

To add to Cat's post, I would quote the same song "The ones who who give the orders are not the ones to die, its Scott and McDonaold, and the lkikes of YOU and I".  Most of us (you, I'm to old) are likely to be connon fodder in these imperialistic adventures.  Get your passports in order.

Hairspray is agreeing that " moderate Muslims" support Al Quida.

I'd really like to see some proof of this.  From what I have seen, most Muslims are appauled by Al Quida and its actions.  You are too intelligent to demonize. 


Perhaps I should have clarified that they must have been supported in some form by some moderate Muslims at some point; not all.

Dude,

Let it go, man. I got this one already.

Consider it "gone" Hair ;). Had you got here and posted what you did before I posted what I did, I wouldn't have felt the "need" to even respond........keep up the good work!

keep up the good work!


Aww, thanks Dude! :)

In much the same way as the IRA has been supported both passively and actively by the Catholic church and the American public: they pretend to themselves that these people they're supporting aren't the rabid fanatics that others may see them to be (though I'd say it's probably more likely that the Catholic church has supported the IRA because of the historical context - as an organization it seems to have a long memory for things like that)

I would love the Muslim communities round the world to be more vocal (and more active) in speaking out against the fundamentalists - but I am not going to condemn them for not doing more than they are at present.  And yes, I know that there has been a lot of condemnation from imams and spokesmen, but I'm not sure how much of it is being relayed to the people who ought to be hearing it.



I agree about the IRA.  I think people conveniently overlook all the un-Christian acts done in the name of Christianity for 2000 years when they point the finger and call Islam a hateful religion.  I too wishMuslim communities would be more vocal in their opposition to Al Quaeda-type stuff, but believe me, whatever they say wouldn't be good enough UNTIL the also pledged their loyalty to George Bush and the Republican Party.