Subject: FW: A Must Read




> > Don't Close Your Blinds
> >
> > The other day, our nine year old son wanted to know why we were at war. My
> > husband looked at our son and then looked at me. My husband and I were in the
> > Army during the Gulf War and we would be honored to serve and defend our
> > Country again today. I knew that my husband would give him a good explanation.
> >
> > My husband thought for a few minutes and then told my son to go stand in our
> > front living room window. He told him: "Son, stand there and tell me what
> > you see?"
> >
> > "I see trees and cars and our neighbor's houses." he replied.
> >
> > "OK, now I want you to pretend that our house and our yard is the United
> > States of America and you are President Bush."
> >
> > Our son giggled and said "OK."
> >
> > "Now son, I want you to look out the window and pretend that every house and
> > yard on this block is a different country", my husband said.
> >
> > "OK Dad, I'm pretending."
> >
> > "Now I want you to stand there and look out the window and see that man come
> > out of his house with his wife and he has her by the hair and is hitting
> > her. You see her bleeding and crying. He hits her in the face, he throws her on
> > the ground, then he starts to kick her to death. Their children run out and
> > are afraid to stop him, they are crying, they are watching this but do nothing
> > because they are kids and afraid of their father. You see all of this,
> > son.... what do you do?"
> >
> > "Dad?"
> >
> > "What do you do son?"
> >
> > "I call the police, Dad."
> >
> > "OK, Pretend that the police are the United Nations and they take your call,
> > listen to what you know and saw but they refuse to help. What do you do then
> > son?"
> >
> > "Dad, but the police are supposed to help!" My son starts to whine.
> >
> > "They don't want to son, because they say that it is not their place or your
> > place to get involved and that you should stay out of it," my husband says.
> >
> > "But Dad...he killed her!!" my son exclaims.
> >
> > "I know he did...but the police tell you to stay out of it. Now I want you
> > to look out that window and pretend you see our neighbor who you're pretending
> > is Saddam turn around and do the same thing to his children."
> >
> > "Daddy...he kills them?"
> >
> > "Yes son, he does. What do you do?"
> >
> > "Well, if the police don't want to help, I will go and ask my next door
> > neighbor to help me stop him," our son says.
> >
> > "Son, our next door neighbor sees what is happening and refuses to get
> > involved as well. He refuses to open the door and help you stop him," my husband
> > says.
> >
> > "But Dad, I NEED help!!! I can't stop him by myself!!"
> >
> > "WHAT DO YOU DO SON?" Our son starts to cry.
> >
> > "OK, no one wants to help you, the man across the street saw you ask for
> > help and saw that no one would help you stop him. He stands taller and puffs out
> > his chest. Guess what he does next son?" 
> >
> > "What Daddy?"
> >
> > "He walks across the street to the old lady's house and breaks down her door
> > and drags her out, steals all her stuff and sets her house on fire and
> > then...he kills her. He turns around and sees you standing in the window and
> > laughs at you. WHAT DO YOU DO?"
> >
> > "Daddy..."
> >
> > "WHAT DO YOU DO?"
> >
> > Our son is crying and he looks down and he whispers, "I close the blinds,
> > Daddy."
> >
> > My husband looks at our son with tears in his eyes and asks him... "Why?"
> >
> > "Because Daddy.....the police are supposed to help...people who needs
> > it....and they won't help....You always say that neighbors are supposed to HELP
> > neighbors, but they won't help either...they won't help me stop him...I'm
> > afraid....I can't do it by myself.
> >
> > Daddy.....I can't look out my window and just watch him do all these
> > terrible things and...and.....do nothing...so....I'm just going to close the
> > blinds....so I can't see what he's doing........and I'm going to pretend that it is
> > not happening."
> >
> > I start to cry.
> >
> > My husband looks at our nine year old son standing in the window, looking
> > pitiful and ashamed at his answers to my husbands questions and he tells
> > him...."Son"!!!
> >
> > "Yes, Daddy."
> >
> > "Open the blinds, because that man.... he's at your front door now..."WHAT
> > DO YOU DO?"
> >
> > My son looks at his father, anger and defiance in his eyes. He balls up his
> > tiny fists and looks his father square in the eyes, without hesitation he
> > says: "I DEFEND MY FAMILY DAD!! I'M NOT GONNA LET HIM HURT MOMMY OR MY SISTER,
> > DAD!!! I'M GONNA FIGHT HIM, DAD, I'M GONNA FIGHT HIM!!!!!"
> >
> > I see a tear roll down my husband's cheek and he grabs our son to his chest
> > and hugs him tight, and cries...
> > 
> > "It's too late to fight him, he's too strong and he's already at YOUR front
> > door son.....you should have stopped him BEFORE he killed his wife. You have
> > to do what's right, even if you have to do it alone, before......it's too
> > late," my husband whispers.
> > 
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > THAT scenario I just gave you is WHY we are at war with Iraq. When good men
> > stand by and let evil happen is the greatest EVIL of all. Our President is
> > doing what is right. We, as a free nation, must understand that this war is a
> > war of humanity. WE must remove evil men from power so that we can continue to
> > live in a free world where we are not afraid to look out our window. So that
> > my nine year old son won't grow up in a world where he feels that if he just
> > "closes" that blinds the atrocities in the world won't affect him.
> >
> > "YOU MUST NEVER BE AFRAID TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT! EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO DO IT
> > ALONE!"
> >
> >
> >
> > BE PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN!
> >
> >
> >
> > BE PROUD OF OUR TROOPS!!
> >
> >
> >
> > BE PROUD OF OUR PRESIDENT!!
> >
> >
> >
> > SUPPORT THEM!!!
> >
> >
> >
> > SUPPORT AMERICA!!
> >
> >

Boy, that's stupid!  I mean REALLY stupid!  Sounds just like the propaganda handed down by fascist dictators to subjegated populations.

In that analogy, I'd say the parents are the Bush Administration, and the boy is the American people...too dumbed down to think critically, naive, easily alarmed, easily manipulated, and easily led.

I don't know where that tripe came from, but if there's anymore, please leave it there!

was put up to hear responses...

As written, it clearly points it out from a childs position....anyone else like to point out what's wrong with this analogy?

was put up to hear responses...

As written, it clearly points it out from a childs position....anyone else like to point out what's wrong with this analogy?


Myself, I still equate Saddam to Hitler.  Both were genocidal maniacs, who would not stop until they were MADE to stop.

And the corrupt UN (Oil For Food) has been proven to be a huge joke.

The world tried appeasement with insane homocidal rulers in the past, and look where it got us?  World War II.

Saddam *DID* sponsor terrorists.  Saddam *DID* ignore UN sanctions.  Saddam *DID* try to assasinate a President of the United States.  Saddam *DID* kill tens of thousands of his own people.  Saddam *DID* pay Palistinian Terrorists who killed Jews.

And people still ask why he needed to be removed?  As Tammy Bruce says, they truely are "Living on the other side of the 'Looking Glass'."

Fear Tactics are abound us!

Tanya

the American people...too dumbed down to think critically, naive, easily alarmed, easily manipulated, and easily led.


::)


Tanya, you forgot about the Japanese internment camps. I know that doesn't qualify as genocide, but I'm sure that the government at the time was looking to that as a solution to get rid of these so called "enemies." :P

Tanya, you forgot about the Japanese internment camps. I know that doesn't qualify as genocide, but I'm sure that the government at the time was looking to that as a solution to get rid of these so called "enemies." :P


While you are on this, don't forget the internment of Germans and Italians.  Contrary to popular belief, it was *NOT* just Japanese that were put into camps.

http://www.foitimes.com/internment/

http://www.serve.com/shea/germusa/itintern.htm

The last time I checked, Germans and Italians are Caucasian.

And even the hint of the internment camps as "Genocide" is disgusting.  If you want to see REAL genocide, check out Nazi Germany, or Serbia, or Iraq, or Turkey.  I don't remember any reports of US Military gassing, shooting, or executing thousands of Japanese-Americans in the camps and burying them in mass graves.

FYI:  In World War II, 110,000 Japanese were placed in camps.  During the same time 600,000 Italians were placed in camps.  Does that place it in a different perspective?

While you are on this, don't forget the internment of Germans and Italians.  Contrary to popular belief, it was *NOT* just Japanese that were put into camps.

http://www.foitimes.com/internment/

http://www.serve.com/shea/germusa/itintern.htm

The last time I checked, Germans and Italians are Caucasian.

And even the hint of the internment camps as "Genocide" is disgusting.  If you want to see REAL genocide, check out Nazi Germany, or Serbia, or Iraq, or Turkey.  I don't remember any reports of US Military gassing, shooting, or executing thousands of Japanese-Americans in the camps and burying them in mass graves.

FYI:  In World War II, 110,000 Japanese were placed in camps.  During the same time 600,000 Italians were placed in camps.  Does that place it in a different perspective?


I used the Japanese as an example because a lot of people are aware of this. For some reason, not many people bring up the German and Italian internment camps. Why is that?

And sure, 600,000 Italians were placed in internment camps. But you forget that 250,000 JAPANESE were killed with two atomic bombs. Let's also not forget the devastating and long lasting effects of said bombs. That was pretty unnecessary, don't you think?

I understood your story and applaud you....I understand that our nation is FREE and it's better to fight for freedom than close the blinds and pretend...while kicking back watching hate movies like farenheit 9-11 :P I respect our troops and wonder what the liberals reaction would be if we polled the troops and were told that the majority our PROUD to defend our country instead of rolling over like wimps. Thanks, saver ;)

And sure, 600,000 Italians were placed in internment camps. But you forget that 250,000 JAPANESE were killed with two atomic bombs. Let's also not forget the devastating and long lasting effects of said bombs. That was pretty unnecessary, don't you think?


OK, so you want to go Tit-For-Tat?

Here is a small list of Japanese atrocities.  Anything the US did is nothing compared to this:

The Rape Of Nanking:    100,000 - 370,000 dead
Slaughter in Korea:        150,000 - 250,000 dead (a great number of biological warfare experiments were conducted by the Japanese Army in Korea)
Bataan Death March:       36,000 US and Philippino Military
Pearl Harbor:                    2,403
Wake Island:                         98 Civilian prisoners machine-gunned after they repaired the damage to island defenses the Japanese caused when they took the island

In addition, it is estimated that 1-2 MILLION Chinese were killed during the occupation of their country.  Approximately 300,000 Philippinos were killed during the occupation of their island.  Exact numbers will never be known.

According to CONSERVATIVE estimates of casuality figures of Operations Coronet and Olympic (the 2 planned invasions of Japan), they expected 1-1.5 MILLION American dead, and 3-9 MILLION Japanese dead.  That is what would have happened if the Atomic Bombs had not been used.

Don't forget, Japan attacked the US.  It was not the other way around.  They also attacked every other country within reach (China, Korea, Malaysia, Australia, New Zealand, Manchuria, etc etc etc).  During WWII, Japan was HARDLY a "peaceful benivolent nation".  And thanks to Bushido, not just the Military but Civilians captured were treated horribly.  It does not take much research to see how they were treated.  Heck, just check out "Empire Of The Sun".

And before you scream I am a Raceist about Japanese, I have actually lived in Japan.  I have a deep respect and love for both the nation and the people.  To me, the past is the past.  The generation responsible for those atrocities is largely gone now.  I do not blame them now for the sins of their forefathers.  But do NOT try to make the Japanese Empire seem like an innocent nation who we savagely attacked with Atomic Bombs.  Because of both Shinto and Bushido, they would not have surrendered otherwise.

In fact, my love of Japan is so great, that I wrote a story loosely based on things I saw when I was there.  I wrote this story in 1996-1997.  This is an excerpt of the Authors Notes at the end, if anybody doubts me on this:

******

Most of the places talked about during the course of this story are real.
If you go to Kin Village, you will find a loud rock club called Sgt. Pepper's.
If you walk the streets of Okinawa City, you will find clubs like I described
existing, but not a place like Cheers and Decades. Those are figments of my
imagination.

If you walk the quiet streets of Henoko, you will find a nice, quiet
little place called Club Tokyo. I shared many nice evenings there with 2 of my
buddies, sharing drinks and talking with the Japanese Nationals there. As far
as I know, we were the only Americans ever to frequent it. The scene about the
octopus is real, as I did do that back in the summer of 1990 in that very same
Club Tokyo.

The people are all made up from my imagination. Some are based on real
people, and others are complete imagination.  I still have a deep love for the
Japanese culture, and want to keep that for the rest of my life.

So for thanks for reading this far, I can only say Domo Arhigato.

******

I have had several responses and letters from Japanese people who live there, and said that I did a great job of capturing both the feel of the island, and showed respect in how I wrote it.  So please, do not even TRY to insinuate I am raceist against Japan.

RnR Fan,

If you are interested in understanding the atrocities the United States and her colonial antecedents have committed against other nations and peoples, the information is at your finger tips.  You can start with, say, Indians and Africans and work up to Vietnamese and Nicaraguans.
If you want to strut around like Sean Hannity without a jockstrap, you  are, of course, free to do so.
I'm not so Chomsky'd out that I think America has never been a force for good in the world, but we do our selves no favors by boasting of our beneficence when history shows us we have a very dark side indeed.
No, no, I'm not interested in spending my time arguing the case. Others have done so much better than I can, and if you are really interested, your public library has all the information You need.

I just implore Saver to spare me the dopey parables!

I think it's the American Indians who deserve some sort of payment for what was done to them, definately...but as for my view on this war...we were attacked and should never just lay down and let terrorists run rampant through our country.

I think it's the American Indians who deserve some sort of payment for what was done to them, definately...but as for my view on this war...we were attacked and should never just lay down and let terrorists run rampant through our country.




But we should go after the terrorists not someone who had nothing to do with the attack. Just because Bush says that there was a link between Iraq and Al Quida does not make it so.


BTW, I do agree with you on the Native-Americans




Cat

To play Devil's Advocate here.  While the story raises some interesting ideas...
Think if you are the boy in the house and the neighbour is the US knocking on your door and wanting to steal your goods and kill you.  It could be argued that this has happened on more than one occassion including in Iraq.  The people there may not have been happy with Saddam but all of a sudden the door is kicked in and stuff is hitting the fan, innocents are dying on both sides.

Also if you're looking out the window and want to police the nieghbourhood what about the various events in Africa, like in the Sudan where people are being killed, forced out and starved. What about the ongoing Tutosie(sp) Hootoo (sp) killings etc that are the remains of Ruwanda that was never really resolved.
If you are going to police the world and stamp out evil it shouldn't only be where there's oil or other interests involved.

OK, so you want to go Tit-For-Tat?

Here is a small list of Japanese atrocities.  Anything the US did is nothing compared to this:

The Rape Of Nanking:    100,000 - 370,000 dead
Slaughter in Korea:        150,000 - 250,000 dead (a great number of biological warfare experiments were conducted by the Japanese Army in Korea)
Bataan Death March:       36,000 US and Philippino Military
Pearl Harbor:                    2,403
Wake Island:                         98 Civilian prisoners machine-gunned after they repaired the damage to island defenses the Japanese caused when they took the island

In addition, it is estimated that 1-2 MILLION Chinese were killed during the occupation of their country.  Approximately 300,000 Philippinos were killed during the occupation of their island.  Exact numbers will never be known.

According to CONSERVATIVE estimates of casuality figures of Operations Coronet and Olympic (the 2 planned invasions of Japan), they expected 1-1.5 MILLION American dead, and 3-9 MILLION Japanese dead.  That is what would have happened if the Atomic Bombs had not been used.

Don't forget, Japan attacked the US.  It was not the other way around.  They also attacked every other country within reach (China, Korea, Malaysia, Australia, New Zealand, Manchuria, etc etc etc).  During WWII, Japan was HARDLY a "peaceful benivolent nation".  And thanks to Bushido, not just the Military but Civilians captured were treated horribly.  It does not take much research to see how they were treated.  Heck, just check out "Empire Of The Sun".

And before you scream I am a Raceist about Japanese, I have actually lived in Japan.  I have a deep respect and love for both the nation and the people.  To me, the past is the past.  The generation responsible for those atrocities is largely gone now.  I do not blame them now for the sins of their forefathers.  But do NOT try to make the Japanese Empire seem like an innocent nation who we savagely attacked with Atomic Bombs.  Because of both Shinto and Bushido, they would not have surrendered otherwise.

In fact, my love of Japan is so great, that I wrote a story loosely based on things I saw when I was there.  I wrote this story in 1996-1997.  This is an excerpt of the Authors Notes at the end, if anybody doubts me on this:

******

Most of the places talked about during the course of this story are real.
If you go to Kin Village, you will find a loud rock club called Sgt. Pepper's.
If you walk the streets of Okinawa City, you will find clubs like I described
existing, but not a place like Cheers and Decades. Those are figments of my
imagination.

If you walk the quiet streets of Henoko, you will find a nice, quiet
little place called Club Tokyo. I shared many nice evenings there with 2 of my
buddies, sharing drinks and talking with the Japanese Nationals there. As far
as I know, we were the only Americans ever to frequent it. The scene about the
octopus is real, as I did do that back in the summer of 1990 in that very same
Club Tokyo.

The people are all made up from my imagination. Some are based on real
people, and others are complete imagination.  I still have a deep love for the
Japanese culture, and want to keep that for the rest of my life.

So for thanks for reading this far, I can only say Domo Arhigato.

******

I have had several responses and letters from Japanese people who live there, and said that I did a great job of capturing both the feel of the island, and showed respect in how I wrote it.  So please, do not even TRY to insinuate I am raceist against Japan.


I'm not going to call you racist, although I must say you have given me a refresher in my history. ;D You can't deny though that America has done many things to other people and yet we still try to pull the innocent routine.

By the way, where can I read this story you wrote?

One thing is certainly left out of most discussions of the war and associated issues in Chechnya/Russia....

For sure, Sadaam was a real bad guy to his people.  Much like Assad can be in Syria, and the Ayatollahs in Iran.  All pretty much totalitarian regimes.

But Sadaam and Assad did, for the most part, provide civil security.  You see, historically, the Arab and Muslim peoples of that area are bloodthirsty and treacherous people who like to settle their differences by the sword.  Arab and "Muslim" countries, with very few exceptions, are almost all based on subjugation, dictatorship, and poverty, despite massive oil wealth.   That is exactly why you see all this bloodshed in Iraq today by Iraqis against Iraqis.  The "insurgents" are not so much PO'd at the United States as they are by the concept that some other tribal group (and there are countless of them) will come into power.  THAT IS WHY SADAAM WAS A TYRANT.  It was the only language his people would understand and behave.  Sadaams mistake was in invading his neighbors.

About 20 years or so ago, a small insurgent group in Syria started acting up.  So Assad (today's Assad's father) sent in troops and eliminated an entire town of 10,000 people where this insurgent group was based.  There was no more insurgency after that, and Assad ultimately saved thousands more lives than if he had let the insurgency fester into what we see today in Iraq. 

My point in posting all of this?  Arabs and "Muslim" countries, as a general rule (there are a few countries that are the exception), do not know what democracy is and do not want it.  And if they do not want it in their own countries, why should I care?  Waging a war to "establish democracy in an Arab/"Muslim" nation" is a waste of time because, deep down, the people there do not want it.  As evidenced by their fighting against it as we speak in Iraq.

This is also why Russia's approach to the Chechens will HAVE to be totalitarian in nature and ruthless.  Until the Chechen rebels see the Russian Army obliterate every mosque in Chechnya and perform midnight execution roundups, they will continue their terror war against school children.  Sadly, this is the only way to deal with "Muslim" fundamentalists.  Assad and Sadaam showed that this is an effective wy to establish order.  Hopefully Putin will have the stomach to implement a totalitarian response to Chechnya, so that the streets can be safe to the average citizen of Russia again.

But we should go after the terrorists not someone who had nothing to do with the attack. Just because Bush says that there was a link between Iraq and Al Quida does not make it so.


BTW, I do agree with you on the Native-Americans




Cat
As for the war, I hate war. I think we shoul have pulled out after capturing Sadaam. As for the American Indians, i agree with both of you, and because i feel they were cheated, i refuse to "Celebrate" Thanksgiving. On that day i pig out, but not on turkey.

::)


Tanya, you forgot about the Japanese internment camps. I know that doesn't qualify as genocide, but I'm sure that the government at the time was looking to that as a solution to get rid of these so called "enemies." :P


I certainly agree that it was a form of institutional genocide, as was the Native American reservations (how do you place the original inhabitants of a country on regulated land and completely take over nicely? - whatever), slavery, the disgusting treatment of the Chinese workers during the building of the railways, etc. America is quite fond of institutional genocide.

Tanya

One thing is certainly left out of most discussions of the war and associated issues in Chechnya/Russia....



About 20 years or so ago, a small insurgent group in Syria started acting up.  So Assad (today's Assad's father) sent in troops and eliminated an entire town of 10,000 people where this insurgent group was based.

  Hopefully Putin will have the stomach to implement a totalitarian response to Chechnya, so that the streets can be safe to the average citizen of Russia again.


I almost didn't respond but by not responding I would feel complicit.  This is the ugliest post I have read on this board.

I used the Japanese as an example because a lot of people are aware of this. For some reason, not many people bring up the German and Italian internment camps. Why is that?

And sure, 600,000 Italians were placed in internment camps. But you forget that 250,000 JAPANESE were killed with two atomic bombs. Let's also not forget the devastating and long lasting effects of said bombs. That was pretty unnecessary, don't you think?


As it has been said regarding the bombing in Japan...MANY more lives would have been lost without doing so...it was the lesser of two evils...

But we should go after the terrorists not someone who had nothing to do with the attack. Just because Bush says that there was a link between Iraq and Al Quida does not make it so.


BTW, I do agree with you on the Native-Americans



Cat


How many news shows have you listnened to BUSH WAS NEVER FOUND TO SAY THEY WERE CONNECTED...and going back to the Democrats in office from Clinton to Gore to Kerry THEY ALL SAID SADDAM WAS A DANGER AND THAT WAS WHY HE WAS PICKED OVER MANY OF THOSE LITTLE BATTLES WE DIDN'T ENTER...MIGHT AS WELL BLAME THEM 

This is complete BS.  The key word, omitted from all the justifications for war, and there have been many (talk about flip-flops) never mention OIL.  Sudan has none, so who gives a cr...p about Sudan.  Same for other parts of Africa where there has been genocide.  Has anyone actually READ the history of west Asia (the middle east)?  You might try it.  You might also get a better handle on the atrocities committed in your name by our government.  While Max is right that some of what we have done has been for the good, but we have a lot to be ashamed of.  As an example, look up the fate of the Breman, a German passanger ship in the early days of the holicost.

How many news shows have you listnened to BUSH WAS NEVER FOUND TO SAY THEY WERE CONNECTED...and going back to the Democrats in office from Clinton to Gore to Kerry THEY ALL SAID SADDAM WAS A DANGER AND THAT WAS WHY HE WAS PICKED OVER MANY OF THOSE LITTLE BATTLES WE DIDN'T ENTER...MIGHT AS WELL BLAME THEM   




Both Bush and Chaney both implied that Saddam was responsible for 9/11, and continue to associate the 2, thus perpetuating the BIG LIE.  Get real!!!

Hello!!!! :)

Tanya

One thing is certainly left out of most discussions of the war and associated issues in Chechnya/Russia....

For sure, Sadaam was a real bad guy to his people.  Much like Assad can be in Syria, and the Ayatollahs in Iran.  All pretty much totalitarian regimes.

But Sadaam and Assad did, for the most part, provide civil security.  You see, historically, the Arab and Muslim peoples of that area are bloodthirsty and treacherous people who like to settle their differences by the sword.  Arab and "Muslim" countries, with very few exceptions, are almost all based on subjugation, dictatorship, and poverty, despite massive oil wealth.   That is exactly why you see all this bloodshed in Iraq today by Iraqis against Iraqis.  The "insurgents" are not so much PO'd at the United States as they are by the concept that some other tribal group (and there are countless of them) will come into power.  THAT IS WHY SADAAM WAS A TYRANT.  It was the only language his people would understand and behave.  Sadaams mistake was in invading his neighbors.

About 20 years or so ago, a small insurgent group in Syria started acting up.  So Assad (today's Assad's father) sent in troops and eliminated an entire town of 10,000 people where this insurgent group was based.  There was no more insurgency after that, and Assad ultimately saved thousands more lives than if he had let the insurgency fester into what we see today in Iraq. 

My point in posting all of this?  Arabs and "Muslim" countries, as a general rule (there are a few countries that are the exception), do not know what democracy is and do not want it.  And if they do not want it in their own countries, why should I care?  Waging a war to "establish democracy in an Arab/"Muslim" nation" is a waste of time because, deep down, the people there do not want it.  As evidenced by their fighting against it as we speak in Iraq.

This is also why Russia's approach to the Chechens will HAVE to be totalitarian in nature and ruthless.  Until the Chechen rebels see the Russian Army obliterate every mosque in Chechnya and perform midnight execution roundups, they will continue their terror war against school children.  Sadly, this is the only way to deal with Muslim fundamentalists.  Assad and Sadaam showed that this is an effective wy to establish order.  Hopefully Putin will have the stomach to implement a totalitarian response to Chechnya, so that the streets can be safe to the average citizen of Russia again.

You're basically saying "Arab/Muslim" nations are hopelessly primitive and savage.  That line of thinking gets us nowhere.
On the one hand you have a huge cultural difference between Islam and Christianity.  Islam does not recognize a separation of Islam and state.  On the other hand, you've got geopolitical power differentials.
Countries such as Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Afghanistan, and Chechnya see themselves as political underdogs bullied by infidels.  Throwing off the yolk of oppression is more than a political mission, for Islamic states it is also a religious and moral obligation.
The anti-Western Islamicists promote the same kind of contempt for American capitalism as Lyricboy just did for "Arab/Muslims."  They say American capitalism is amoral, power-hungry, and will destroy everything in its path.  America respects no values but its own.  America imports degerate materialism and wants to destroy Islam.  America is part of a Zionist conspiracy and out to grab land and oil.  That's what Muslims in many nations hear every day, and quite a bit of their rage is well-founded.
I suppose in Chechnya there is less rage directed at America, and more directed at Moscow.
In the 1960s we thought we could go into Vietnam and search out and destroy the Communist infrastructure---the Viet Cong.  By doing so, we thought we could "save" the country from Communism.  Somehow we were surprised to find out the rank-and-file south Vietnamese peasants were part of a tightly organized political movement and were not on our side.  They had successfully fought off French imperialism and did not see the U.S., the ally of France, as "liberators" of any sort.
We have encountered the same reality in Iraq.  Whereas the reptilian brain-stem guys like Bill O'Reilly call the Iraqis "ungrateful," our politicians had better take a more humble and nuanced point of view.
The Muslim world is not "jealous" of our freedom, rather they are enraged by the oppression imposed on them by our power.
LyricBoy posits the Russians would have to destroy every Mosque in Chechnya and subject Chechens to "midnight roundups" before they'll cooperate.  LyricBoy is wrong once again.  Such Roman-style scorched earth policy creates the most fertile ground of all for terrorism.  You have utterly defeated people, vanquished and humiliated with nothing to lose.  This is not when people bow there heads in submission.  This is when they form guerrilla armies in the hills and terror squadrons in the ghettoes. 
The mightier power can keep the jackboot on the lesser power for decades and never stop terrorism.  Is that what we want in Iraq?  Is that what the Russians want in Chechnya?  Better yet, is that what the Israelis want in Palestine?

Both Bush and Chaney both implied that Saddam was responsible for 9/11, and continue to associate the 2, thus perpetuating the BIG LIE.  Get real!!!


The link was between Saddam and TERRORISM.  It is a well known fact that Saddam sponsored terrorism.  I could not care less if the Terrorists were Al Queda or PFLP or Islamic Jihad.  Bush declaired war on terrorism, and he said he would do what he could against any nation that continued to sponsor it.

Notice how much Lybia has changed its tune in the last few years.  From the nation behind Flight 007, they are now walking a very striaght and narrow line.  And don't forget, Kadaffy told Saddam to get out of Quwait in 1990.  He learned his lesson, but Saddam never did.

And as it has been pointed out here before...  Al Queda was in San Diego, Egypt, Los Angeles, Canada, Seattle, Algeria, Florida, Tajikistan, Yemen, Michigan, Jordan, New York, Boston, Sudan, Afganistan, Kenya, Tanzania, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Somalia, UAE, Pakistan, Malaysia, Philippines, Bosnia, Chechnya, Germany.  But out of all the places in the world, they were not in Iraq?

The link was between Saddam and TERRORISM.  It is a well known fact that Saddam sponsored terrorism.  I could not care less if the Terrorists were Al Queda or PFLP or Islamic Jihad.  Bush declaired war on terrorism, and he said he would do what he could against any nation that continued to sponsor it.

Notice how much Lybia has changed its tune in the last few years.  From the nation behind Flight 007, they are now walking a very striaght and narrow line.  And don't forget, Kadaffy told Saddam to get out of Quwait in 1990.  He learned his lesson, but Saddam never did.

And as it has been pointed out here before...  Al Queda was in San Diego, Egypt, Los Angeles, Canada, Seattle, Algeria, Florida, Tajikistan, Yemen, Michigan, Jordan, New York, Boston, Sudan, Afganistan, Kenya, Tanzania, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Somalia, UAE, Pakistan, Malaysia, Philippines, Bosnia, Chechnya, Germany.  But out of all the places in the world, they were not in Iraq?


Does the name Osama Bin Laden mean anything at all to you anymore. because he is the one I
want, and for some reason it is not the name being used anymore. 

Does the name Osama Bin Laden mean anything at all to you anymore. because he is the one I
want, and for some reason it is not the name being used anymore. 


Yes, and we are still looking for him.  But he is not the only terrorist out there.

I seem to remember that Bush declaired a "War On Terrorism", not just a "War On Al-Queda".

I almost didn't respond but by not responding I would feel complicit.  This is the ugliest post I have read on this board.


It may be ugly but it is in fact, true.

Under the Soviet system, Chechnya was ruled with an iron fist by Moscow and the streets were safe to walk at night.  And schoolchildren were not being strapped with bombs on their first day to school.

And you do not hear of people in Syria regularly being slaughtered in a tit-for-tat terrorist game, because a VERY STRONG government decided that when an insurgent group declared war on the country, Assad declared TOTAL WAR on them and ended it.

Terrorists and the populations that support them WILL SUBMIT to overwhelming and ruthless force.  And so, that is what must be used to end their terror.

LyricBoy posits the Russians would have to destroy every Mosque in Chechnya and subject Chechens to "midnight roundups" before they'll cooperate.  LyricBoy is wrong once again.  Such Roman-style scorched earth policy creates the most fertile ground of all for terrorism.  You have utterly defeated people, vanquished and humiliated with nothing to lose.  This is not when people bow there heads in submission.  This is when they form guerrilla armies in the hills and terror squadrons in the ghettoes. 
The mightier power can keep the jackboot on the lesser power for decades and never stop terrorism.  Is that what we want in Iraq?  Is that what the Russians want in Chechnya?  Better yet, is that what the Israelis want in Palestine?


I remind you that under the Soviet system, Chechnya was ruled by totalitarian regime, and the Muslim Terrorists never DARED to do the things they try today.  Their religion was suppressed as well, which meant that religious "pretenders" had no pulpit from which to spew their venom.

Suppression and totalitarianism DO WORK to suppress terrorist populations.

Ever wonder why you are not hearing about Muslim terrorists in China?  Because if they tried anything they know that retribution would be swift, severe, and grossly in excess of whatever offense they got caught commiting.

Mind you I am not a fan of Soviet-style governments, but they are alot better than what the terrorists are trying to do.  And a western-style touchie-feelie democracy or republic does not seem to fit the behaviour style of many "Muslim" counties.

I use "quotes" around the work "Muslim" because these countries and their terrorists are no more followers of Islam than the Pope.

How many news shows have you listnened to BUSH WAS NEVER FOUND TO SAY THEY WERE CONNECTED...and going back to the Democrats in office from Clinton to Gore to Kerry THEY ALL SAID SADDAM WAS A DANGER AND THAT WAS WHY HE WAS PICKED OVER MANY OF THOSE LITTLE BATTLES WE DIDN'T ENTER...MIGHT AS WELL BLAME THEM   





What about Cheney? Here is a news article where he does link Saddam to Al Quida and this article was written TODAY


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=584&e=3&u=/nm/20040909/pl_nm/campaign_cheney_dc




Cat

Ever wonder why you are not hearing about Muslim terrorists in China?  Because if they tried anything they know that retribution would be swift, severe, and grossly in excess of whatever offense they got caught commiting.


In China, even Christianity is illegal.  Remember, China is the perfect example of an athiestic state.  The State is God.  And no other God is allowed.

And as you said, China is vrutally efficient in how it handles dissadents.  A large number after Tienamen Square were executed.  But to drive the point home, after the execution (pistol shot to the back of the head), the Chinese government then sends a bill for the bullet (about 25 cents) to the surviving family of the person executed.  This kind of fear is very effective.

As for Islam, I have never been nor will I ever be anti-Islamic.  I am anti-Fundamentalist.  And that goes for Fundamentalist Christian and Fundamentalist Jewish (Zionist), not just Fundamentalist Islam.  When a group feels that God gives them the right to do anything they want to, that is a danger to everybody.

In China, even Christianity is illegal.  Remember, China is the perfect example of an athiestic state.  The State is God.  And no other God is allowed.

And as you said, China is vrutally efficient in how it handles dissadents.  A large number after Tienamen Square were executed.  But to drive the point home, after the execution (pistol shot to the back of the head), the Chinese government then sends a bill for the bullet (about 25 cents) to the surviving family of the person executed.  This kind of fear is very effective.

As for Islam, I have never been nor will I ever be anti-Islamic.  I am anti-Fundamentalist.  And that goes for Fundamentalist Christian and Fundamentalist Jewish (Zionist), not just Fundamentalist Islam.  When a group feels that God gives them the right to do anything they want to, that is a danger to everybody.

Then we've got at least something in common.  I think religious fundamentalism of all sorts is dangerous.
I have heard some advocates of capital punishment here in America praise the Chinese billing for bullets.
My guess is there will be an easing of religious prohibition in China as the communism wanes.

Then we've got at least something in common.  I think religious fundamentalism of all sorts is dangerous.


We both agree there.  I think that religion is a very good thing, as long as you do not try to impose your ideas onto others.


I have heard some advocates of capital punishment here in America praise the Chinese billing for bullets.


I find it disgusting, and I am in favor of capitol punishment.  What China does is nothing but terrorism on it's own people.  And for these people, their only crime is speaking up against their Government.  To them, it did not matter that most of the students at Tienamen Square were Communists themselves.  For the most part they did not want to see the Government fall, just to allow more openness and freedom.


My guess is there will be an easing of religious prohibition in China as the communism wanes.


I do not think that will happen.  Like in the Soviet Union, I doubt you will see the return of religion until the current Communist government falls.

I remind you that under the Soviet system, Chechnya was ruled by totalitarian regime, and the Muslim Terrorists never DARED to do the things they try today.  Their religion was suppressed as well, which meant that religious "pretenders" had no pulpit from which to spew their venom.

Suppression and totalitarianism DO WORK to suppress terrorist populations.

Ever wonder why you are not hearing about Muslim terrorists in China?  Because if they tried anything they know that retribution would be swift, severe, and grossly in excess of whatever offense they got caught commiting.

Mind you I am not a fan of Soviet-style governments, but they are alot better than what the terrorists are trying to do.  And a western-style touchie-feelie democracy or republic does not seem to fit the behaviour style of many "Muslim" counties.

I use "quotes" around the work "Muslim" because these countries and their terrorists are no more followers of Islam than the Pope.


Given this rational should the United States enter Idaho, a state known as a magnet for survivalist
groups that advocate overthrowing the government, and wipe out towns known to harbor them as
a way to prevent another Oklahoma bombing?

Under the Soviet system, Chechnya was ruled with an iron fist by Moscow and the streets were safe to walk at night.

The only reason the streets in Chechnya are less safe now is because of trigger-happy Russian troops - Russia has thrown more military force into Chechnya in the last few years than ever before: your cause-and-effect logic is oversimplistic to the point of just being wrong.

Similarly, you praise Assad for killing more innocent people than international terrorism has managed in total... would you prefer to live in a country where dissent is quashed by overwhelming force and nobody is allowed to speak out against the totalitarian regime?


Throwing off the yolk of oppression is more than a political mission, for Islamic states it is also a religious and moral obligation.
Couldn't resist this... I assume you mean the "yoke" of oppression


In China, even Christianity is illegal. Remember, China is the perfect example of an athiestic state. The State is God. And no other God is allowed.

er... I think you'll find that if the state is God, then it can't be defined as an atheistic state.  It's the perfect example of what a religious nut would try and call an atheistic state, though.

...and finally:

As written, it clearly points it out from a childs position....anyone else like to point out what's wrong with this analogy?

It's oversimplistic, inaccurate, bulls**t.  And that's as kind a comment as I can make.

Given this rational should the United States enter Idaho, a state known as a magnet for survivalist
groups that advocate overthrowing the government, and wipe out towns known to harbor them as
a way to prevent another Oklahoma bombing?


Oh Lordie I've got a ton of relatives in Idaho.  I wonder what they're up to!!??

...and finally:

It's oversimplistic, inaccurate, bulls**t.  And that's as kind a comment as I can make.


Good onya Phil.  I agree 100%!

The only reason the streets in Chechnya are less safe now is because of trigger-happy Russian troops - Russia has thrown more military force into Chechnya in the last few years than ever before: your cause-and-effect logic is oversimplistic to the point of just being wrong.

Similarly, you praise Assad for killing more innocent people than international terrorism has managed in total... would you prefer to live in a country where dissent is quashed by overwhelming force and nobody is allowed to speak out against the totalitarian regime?


Couldn't resist this... I assume you mean the "yoke" of oppression


er... I think you'll find that if the state is God, then it can't be defined as an atheistic state.  It's the perfect example of what a religious nut would try and call an atheistic state, though.

...and finally:

It's oversimplistic, inaccurate, bulls**t.  And that's as kind a comment as I can make.


Wish I said that, but since I didn't I'm glad you did.  Good Going!!!!

Oh Lordie I've got a ton of relatives in Idaho.  I wonder what they're up to!!??


Oh no! Don't tell Lyric, he'll have them investigated to make sure they're not in a sleeper cell. :o

One thing is certainly left out of most discussions of the war and associated issues in Chechnya/Russia....

For sure, Sadaam was a real bad guy to his people.  Much like Assad can be in Syria, and the Ayatollahs in Iran.  All pretty much totalitarian regimes.

But Sadaam and Assad did, for the most part, provide civil security.  You see, historically, the Arab and Muslim peoples of that area are bloodthirsty and treacherous people who like to settle their differences by the sword.  Arab and "Muslim" countries, with very few exceptions, are almost all based on subjugation, dictatorship, and poverty, despite massive oil wealth.   That is exactly why you see all this bloodshed in Iraq today by Iraqis against Iraqis.  The "insurgents" are not so much PO'd at the United States as they are by the concept that some other tribal group (and there are countless of them) will come into power.  THAT IS WHY SADAAM WAS A TYRANT.  It was the only language his people would understand and behave.  Sadaams mistake was in invading his neighbors.

About 20 years or so ago, a small insurgent group in Syria started acting up.  So Assad (today's Assad's father) sent in troops and eliminated an entire town of 10,000 people where this insurgent group was based.  There was no more insurgency after that, and Assad ultimately saved thousands more lives than if he had let the insurgency fester into what we see today in Iraq. 

My point in posting all of this?  Arabs and "Muslim" countries, as a general rule (there are a few countries that are the exception), do not know what democracy is and do not want it.  And if they do not want it in their own countries, why should I care?  Waging a war to "establish democracy in an Arab/"Muslim" nation" is a waste of time because, deep down, the people there do not want it.  As evidenced by their fighting against it as we speak in Iraq.

This is also why Russia's approach to the Chechens will HAVE to be totalitarian in nature and ruthless.  Until the Chechen rebels see the Russian Army obliterate every mosque in Chechnya and perform midnight execution roundups, they will continue their terror war against school children.  Sadly, this is the only way to deal with "Muslim" fundamentalists.  Assad and Sadaam showed that this is an effective wy to establish order.  Hopefully Putin will have the stomach to implement a totalitarian response to Chechnya, so that the streets can be safe to the average citizen of Russia again.


Not only is this an extremely ugly post, as Doonat put it, it is grossly inaccurate and virulently racist.  Did you know that many of the nations of of west Asia, like Iraq, didn't exist before 1918?  You really need to read some history before spouting this bull.

Let me join both Max and Mushroom (and I'm sure many others) in their opposition to fundamentalism of any kind.  But unlike Lyricboy, I don't think the answer is totalitarian gov't.  Rather, the answer is education, prosperity, hope for a better life.  These are the very things that totalitarian gov'ts preclude.  With one exception, the literacy rate in totalitarian states is always among the lowest, and ed opportunity is among the lowest.  The exception, by the way, is Cuba, which has one of the highest literacy rates in the 3rd world.  But then, there are serious doubts about Cuba being "totalitarian".

And where is Osama?

He certainly wasn't in Iraq. 

Couldn't resist this... I assume you mean the "yoke" of oppression



Erm, I did...and that's no yolk!
:-[
I guess that's instant karma for correcting Mushroom's spelling!

If Cheney links Saddam..we are not voting for Cheney and if they are connected...the pointis made...

There is soo much out there where we became friends with places  now we are against them...WHAT A WORLD!

If Cheney links Saddam..we are not voting for Cheney and if they are connected...the pointis made...

There is soo much out there where we became friends with places  now we are against them...WHAT A WORLD!



??? ??? ???

Given this rational should the United States enter Idaho, a state known as a magnet for survivalist
groups that advocate overthrowing the government, and wipe out towns known to harbor them as a way to prevent another Oklahoma bombing?


Actually, I lived for many years in Idaho.  And nothing can be farther from the truth.

Most of Idaho is fairly religious and respectful.  Being in the heart of the North West "Bible Belt", it tends to be very well balanced, and tolerant of almost everybody.  This I think is largely because of the heavy influence of the Mormon community.  To the Mormons, family and community is very strong.

During the 1976 Teton Dam disaster, the Mormons all over the state sent food and aid to the region affected, long before the Federal Government was able to get itself organized.

The bad name Idaho gets is mostly in the Northern "panhandle" of the state, mostly centering around the Hayden Lake area.  This is because that is where the "Aryan Nation" chose to set up it's headquarters.  And if you check the beliefs of the Aryan Nation, you will find that they also discriminate against Mormons, in addition to Catholics, Jews, Blacks, Asians, and everybody that does not match THEIR idea of what a "Real American" is.

Another thing not surprising is that almost all of the members who belong to that community are from outside of Idaho.  In fact, a large number are from Southern California.

There is a large recruitment effort in California to gain members for this and other hate groups.  The Lancaster-Palmdale area is well known for it's connections to Neo-Nazis.  Buford Farrow (the man who in 1999 killed a Philippino Postalman when he shot up a Jewish child care center) was recruited when he lived in the Palmdale-Lancaster area.

One thing that is not commonly known is that Buford Farrow's common-law wife was none other then Debbie Matthews.  Debbie's former husband was Robert J. Mathews, the leader of the group that killed Denver radio host Alan Berg, and held up armored cars to further their racial war.  Robert also was from the Lancaster-Palmdale area, but he moved to Northern Idaho, then to Northern Washington State.  That is where he was killed after a standoff with police.

Now if you ask me if they should declare war against groups like "Aryan Nation", "Church Of The Creator", "Church Of The Avenger", and other such institutions that preach hatred and killing, I would be all for it.

*****

On a side note, I had an interesting meeting with one of the Nazi's that lived in Idaho.

In November 1983, I graduated from Boot Camp, and went to visit my mom.  While I was waiting at the airport, I had this guy walk up and start a conversation with me.  He mentioned that he saw me come off of a plane from Los Angeles, and commented on my new Marine uniform.  I told him that I was originally from LA, but had also lived in Idaho for many years, and that I was on leave before starting my Infantry training.

We talked about Idaho, the "Bastard Russians" (remember, this was shortly after the USSR shot down a Korean passenger liner), the hateful Muslims (Beirut Marine Barracks bombing was only a month before this), and several other things.  I mostly just let him talk, finding most of what he said "over the top".

Finally he got to the point of his conversation with me.  He handed me a card, and asked if I was interested in going to a meeting on Friday night.  I looked at the card, which had a Swastika on it, and an Eagle (the classic Nazi symbol from Nazi Germany).  It had no name, just a phone number and a Post Office Box.

I looked at it, then smiled at the guy.  I simply told him "I am sorry, but if it is Friday night, I am afraid I can't make it.  I am expected at the Synagog for services that night."

Needless to say, he blew his top!  He tried to rip my uniform, saying I was not worthy to wear it.  Luckily (for him) the Airport Police showed up, and happily took him into custody.  They had been trying to get him out of the airport for months, but until that time he had not broken the law, so they could not stop his attempts to recruit people.  Luckily, I gave him the excuse they needed to ban him from the Airport.

And no, I am not Jewish.  I have always had a hatred for people like that, and simply said the one thing that I was sure would piss him off the most.  8)

Actually, I lived for many years in Idaho.  And nothing can be farther from the truth.

Most of Idaho is fairly religious and respectful.  Being in the heart of the North West "Bible Belt", it tends to be very well balanced, and tolerant of almost everybody.  This I think is largely because of the heavy influence of the Mormon community.  To the Mormons, family and community is very strong.


People from Boise and Pocatello have told me if you're not a Mormon in those areas, you're kind of an outsider.  I've also heard there are more Mormons in Idaho than in Utah.

And as you say, the white supremecists chose the Idaho panhandle, Idaho didn't invite the white supremecists.

Actually, I lived for many years in Idaho.  And nothing can be farther from the truth.

Most of Idaho is fairly religious and respectful.  Being in the heart of the North West "Bible Belt", it tends to be very well balanced, and tolerant of almost everybody.  This I think is largely because of the heavy influence of the Mormon community.  To the Mormons, family and community is very strong.

.


Yes, and using Lyrics logic they would be wiped out even thought they were innocent of any of the
actions of the groups in the panhandle.  He advocates Assads' wiping out a town of 10,000.  I'm
sure that the majority of these people were religious, respectful men, women, and children.  What
Lyric Boy is advocating is a return to pogroms.  I know you agree with me that this is to ugly for words.

People from Boise and Pocatello have told me if you're not a Mormon in those areas, you're kind of an outsider.  I've also heard there are more Mormons in Idaho than in Utah.

And as you say, the white supremecists chose the Idaho panhandle, Idaho didn't invite the white supremecists.


That is very true.  And in the smaller towns, people are rather "clanish".  My mom lived in a small town for most of her childhood.  But she was born in California.  Even after 14 years, she was still often considered an "outsider".

This did not mean that she was not made welcome.  For most of us, it is hard to imagine living in a town where you literally know everybody, and live there your entire life.  In many areas of Idaho, this is not unusual.  But my mom must have accepted that, because she chose to retire into an even SMALLER community in Idaho.

The supremecists chose Idaho because there was a lot of land available cheap, and the people are largely a "mind your own business" type.  Individuality is the norm there, where the schools still allow students 2 weeks off to hunt in the fall.

Interesting side note on Idaho.  While it consistantly elects Republican Senators, Congressmen and votes Republican for Presidential elections, it's Governor and state legislature is consistantly Democrat.

By the way, where can I read this story you wrote?


Well, I am sure that by sating this, I am going to forever blow my cover as a "Conservative".

For over 8 years now, I have been writing "Erotic Fiction" online.  The story I wrote was one of those.  It was a story that incorporated a lot of things I saw (but not experienced - I was faithfully married at the time) when I was stationed in Japan.

While it was "erotic" in nature, I treated the people of Japan in a very respectful manner, and tried to capture the essence of the island.  And a lot of the non-erotic incidents really happened.

If you are really interested in reading the story, here it is:

http://www.asstr.org/files/Collections/Kristen's_Collection/www/22/okinawa.txt

Side Note:  I started writing erotica as a way to try and expand my writing ability.  I found it was a way I could write, and get feedback.  And as I have said it before, I have a "muse" that actually writes the stories, I just put the words down.  That muse comes and goes.  I have not written such a story in many years now, because my muse has since moved to poetry.

Well, I am sure that by sating this, I am going to forever blow my cover as a "Conservative".

For over 8 years now, I have been writing "Erotic Fiction" online.  The story I wrote was one of those.  It was a story that incorporated a lot of things I saw (but not experienced - I was faithfully married at the time) when I was stationed in Japan.

While it was "erotic" in nature, I treated the people of Japan in a very respectful manner, and tried to capture the essence of the island.  And a lot of the non-erotic incidents really happened.

If you are really interested in reading the story, here it is:

http://www.asstr.org/files/Collections/Kristen's_Collection/www/22/okinawa.txt

Side Note:  I started writing erotica as a way to try and expand my writing ability.  I found it was a way I could write, and get feedback.  And as I have said it before, I have a "muse" that actually writes the stories, I just put the words down.  That muse comes and goes.  I have not written such a story in many years now, because my muse has since moved to poetry.


I don't think any less of you for writing erotic fiction, be you Conservative or otherwise. :) It looks like a pretty long story, so I shall tackle it on Monday. By the way, I loved your tale of how you f*cked with that dude's head. Way to give a racist punk a heart attack! ;D

Since we're telling horror tales of this nature, I'll relate something that happened to me in my Junior year of high school. I was in the ROP childcare class and every day we'd go to the school we were assigned. The lady who drove us was incredibly nice...or so I thought. One day I was the first one out of the school because the kids went to recess early. So I was waiting in the van just talking to her about everything. About 10 minutes after we were supposed to leave to go back to our high school, she started saying stuff about Mexicans: about how many there were in California and how uneducated they were and all this bullsh*t. Then she asked me, "What do you think about them?" I looked her dead in the eye and said quite calmly, "Mrs. ****, I AM Mexican." She shut her yap and didn't speak to me for the rest of the semester.

It's true I am half Mexican, but I take after my mother and am very fair in complexion. I guess she thought I was a kindred spirit in her cr*p tirade against Mexicans. ::)

OK, so you want to go Tit-For-Tat?

Here is a small list of Japanese atrocities.  Anything the US did is nothing compared to this:

The Rape Of Nanking:    100,000 - 370,000 dead
Slaughter in Korea:        150,000 - 250,000 dead (a great number of biological warfare experiments were conducted by the Japanese Army in Korea)
Bataan Death March:       36,000 US and Philippino Military
Pearl Harbor:                    2,403
Wake Island:                         98 Civilian prisoners machine-gunned after they repaired the damage to island defenses the Japanese caused when they took the island

In addition, it is estimated that 1-2 MILLION Chinese were killed during the occupation of their country.  Approximately 300,000 Philippinos were killed during the occupation of their island.  Exact numbers will never be known.

Actually, I've heard that as many as 8 to 9 million civilians were killed as a result of Japanese conquests in Asia and the resulting occupations.



According to CONSERVATIVE estimates of casuality figures of Operations Coronet and Olympic (the 2 planned invasions of Japan), they expected 1-1.5 MILLION American dead, and 3-9 MILLION Japanese dead.  That is what would have happened if the Atomic Bombs had not been used.

Don't forget, Japan attacked the US.  It was not the other way around.  They also attacked every other country within reach (China, Korea, Malaysia, Australia, New Zealand, Manchuria, etc etc etc).  During WWII, Japan was HARDLY a "peaceful benivolent nation".  And thanks to Bushido, not just the Military but Civilians captured were treated horribly.  It does not take much research to see how they were treated.  Heck, just check out "Empire Of The Sun".

And before you scream I am a Raceist about Japanese, I have actually lived in Japan.  I have a deep respect and love for both the nation and the people.  To me, the past is the past.  The generation responsible for those atrocities is largely gone now.  I do not blame them now for the sins of their forefathers.  But do NOT try to make the Japanese Empire seem like an innocent nation who we savagely attacked with Atomic Bombs.  Because of both Shinto and Bushido, they would not have surrendered otherwise.

Part of the debate over the dropping of the atomic bombs is that the Allies could have accepted something less than the total surrender of the Japanese government. They could have negotiated for Japan to withdraw from all the lands it had conquered, but still retain control over its own territory. This might seem a little bit like giving in, considering the well documented brutality of Japanese imperialism, but when one takes into account the hundreds of thousands of lives lost in bombing raids on Japan as well as the dropping of the atomic bombs, it seems more and more that it should have been thought of as an option.

For over 8 years now, I have been writing "Erotic Fiction" online.  The story I wrote was one of those.  It was a story that incorporated a lot of things I saw (but not experienced - I was faithfully married at the time) when I was stationed in Japan.

While it was "erotic" in nature, I treated the people of Japan in a very respectful manner, and tried to capture the essence of the island.  And a lot of the non-erotic incidents really happened.

If you are really interested in reading the story, here it is:

http://www.asstr.org/files/Collections/Kristen's_Collection/www/22/okinawa.txt


Hey, did that part of the story about the banana and chopping it up into little pieces really happen? I knew a guy who went on a trip to Thailand one time, and he said that at a club there, he saw them do something similar with a musical trumpet as well as a blow-dart gun. I'd go into more details, but this is a family board..... ::)

Hey, did that part of the story about the banana and chopping it up into little pieces really happen? I knew a guy who went on a trip to Thailand one time, and he said that at a club there, he saw them do something similar with a musical trumpet as well as a blow-dart gun. I'd go into more details, but this is a family board..... ::)


:o

Part of the debate over the dropping of the atomic bombs is that the Allies could have accepted something less than the total surrender of the Japanese government. They could have negotiated for Japan to withdraw from all the lands it had conquered, but still retain control over its own territory. This might seem a little bit like giving in, considering the well documented brutality of Japanese imperialism, but when one takes into account the hundreds of thousands of lives lost in bombing raids on Japan as well as the dropping of the atomic bombs, it seems more and more that it should have been thought of as an option.


Well, first you have to understand a little about both Shinto and Bushido.

Shinto was the State Religion until 1945.  Basically, it was Hitler's "Master Race" on steroids.

According to Shinto, the Emperor was both the Emperor, and a God.  His influence politically was normally not very large.  But he was the spiritual leader of the entire nation.  And he also had some influence over Japanese in other nations (this is one reaosn they were placed in camps).  Think of him as Byzantine Rome.  The Emperor would be equivelant to both Caesar AND the Pope.  But because he was descended from God, throw in some of Jesus Christ as well.

This belief in Shinto lead the Japanese to believe that they were the ultimate "Master Race".  They were superior to everybody else on Earth, and could treat them any way they pleased.  Just check on what they did in the areas they conquered.  For cruelty, they gave Hitler a run for the money.  It was only this attitude that allowed Hitler to accept them as an ally, even though they were "not pure".

Add to that, the concept of "Bushido".  In the warrior's code, there is no quarter, no surrender.  You were expected to die honerably for your Emperor.  Nothing less was accepted.  Soldiers with no ammunition left would throw themselves at machine guns to take up bullts so the next soldier might get through.  On Saipan, civilians and their families threw themselves off of cliffs to prevent themselves or their families from being captured.  On Okinawa, families in caves detonated hand grenades to kill themselves rather then be captured.

And those were smaller islands!  During Iwo Jima, only 200 Japanese were captured (the majority to badly injured to kill themselves or continue) out of over 22,000!  On Tarawa, there were 5,000 Japanese soldiers.  Only 17 were captured alive.

Without such an overwhelming show of force, the war would not have ended.  The national character of Japan would not have allowed itself to surrender.  Remember, there was a coup the night before the Emperor announced the surrender.  Even after 2 Atomic Bombs, there were large numbers of Japanese that still wanted to fight!

And remember, they were giving weapons to anybody that could hold them.  Children were being taught to walk up to soldiers with hand grenades and blow themselves up.  The infamous "Baka Bombs", midget suicide submarines, and even Chemical Weapons were to be used in the defense of the mainland of Japan.

Another thing many people do not realize is how close Japan was to it's own atomic bomb.  In "Japan's Secret War: Japan's Race Against Time to Build Its Own Atomic Bomb", Robert K. Wilcox showed just how close Japan was to it's own Atomic Bomb.  3-6 months (the time frame needed to get "Operation Coronet" finished, and prepare for "Operation Olympic" would have meant that troops landing on the beaches would have been attacked with Japanese Atomic Weapons!

Remember, Japan fell only after 4 years of hard bloody fighting.  And even though documents have shown that the Emperor would have accepted a peace treaty without the atomic bombs, the Military would not have accepted it.  They would rather have died fighting.  Only Hiroshima and Nagasaki showed the futility of fighting on.

In addition, it actually gave them the excuse to stop.  In Bushido, it is acceptable at times to bow before a vastly superior enemy.  Those 2 bombs allowed them to do just that, without loosing face.

In addition, it actually gave them the excuse to stop. In Bushido, it is acceptable at times to bow before a vastly superior enemy. Those 2 bombs allowed them to do just that, without losing face.

That's very much the way I see it, too - even the ongoing suffering in Hiroshima and Nagasaki is minor compared to what in all probability would have happened without the bombs being dropped.  There is also the ongoing example of how overwhelmingly awful the spectre of nuclear weapons actually is: the fusion bomb is many times more powerful, who's to say whether they'd have been used at some point over the past forty years if there wasn't the image of Hiroshima to look back on?

Not only is this an extremely ugly post, as Doonat put it, it is grossly inaccurate and virulently racist.  Did you know that many of the nations of of west Asia, like Iraq, didn't exist before 1918?  You really need to read some history before spouting this bull.


Of course many of those nations did not exist before 1918, and for a clear reason.  Historical tribalism and internal treachery which left these areas prone, for centuries, to oppression, conquest, and near-continual redrawing of international lines.  It is why Afghanistan, for centuries, has been a quagmire...tribalism and treachery, and the inability of its many tribal groups to put aside their desire to oppress their own members as well as other tribes.  That is also why an expectation to see any long-lasting "democracy" there, without a large armed presence by the US or UN, is a flight of fancy.

Afghanistan, for example, was destabilized in ther 1980's by the USSR and, I suppose, by the US.  How did this happen?  Because various tribal groups invited either the USSR or the US to help them in their quest to oppress their fellow Afghans.  Then once "we" got the USSR to throw in the towel, the US basically left Afghanistan alone to their own devices and they resumed oppressing themselves again, with the Taliban gaining the upper hand.

The so-called "Muslim" geographical areas have centuries of history of oppression of individual rights and genocide, and poverty, even before the advent of Islam.  Even though at one time some of the more advanced civilizations were located in Egypt, Persia, and Mesopotamia.

How did such advanced civilizations fall to pieces?  When Egypt and Mesopotamia were thriving, the European populations were not much above living in caves.  There was a time when Islamic science was on the leading edge of world technology.  Now nearly all of these "nations" are seen as backwards, uncivilized, and oppressive.  And in those areas where you do see higher technology, it is usually imported from the West and taught at Western-dominated schools.

The largely "Arab" or "Muslim" areas of the rough Middle East area had a head-start in science and civilization, and in the 20th century they found the potential blessings of oil wealth.  Instead, they have indigenous oppression and rampant poverty.  That is not racism...  That is their history.

If the Russian Government wants to make the streets of non-Chechen-Republics safe to walk again, they will have to take a ruthless approach to Chechen rebels and the population that supports them.

This is absolutely NO DIFFERENT to how WW2 was won.  Russians, Americans, and British took a ruthless approach to the German and Japanese armies and the populations that supported them  And it was over.

Afghanistan, for example, was destabilized in ther 1980's by the USSR and, I suppose, by the US. How did this happen? Because various tribal groups invited either the USSR or the US to help them in their quest to oppress their fellow Afghans. Then once "we" got the USSR to throw in the towel, the US basically left Afghanistan alone to their own devices and they resumed oppressing themselves again, with the Taliban gaining the upper hand.

The Taliban got the upper hand mainly because they were supplied by the US, on the same "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" premise that gave support to Saddam.  They may have had control of Kabul, but I wouldn't mind betting that the hinterlands were as un-Islamic as ever.

I have a hilarious book picked up on a trip to the USSR (when it still was) called "The Truth About Afghanistan", which tries to put the Soviet side of the invasion... But in the end it makes it very clear that what the USSR did was recognize a Soviet puppet as the legitimate ruler of Afghanistan (and the Soviets were the *only* people to think he was in any way leading the Afghan peoples), who promptly requested their help.  F**k knows why they Russians wanted any part of Afghanistan, though: read Flashman and you'll get the idea - not a huge amount has changed, ISTM.  But it's not the various tribes in Afghanistan trying to "oppress" each other - each is fiercely independent and completely resistant to outside rule: the terrain is not conducive to military victories as the Russians have found out many times over the past few hundred years; the British "ruled" by buying off enough of the tribes, but when they decided to cut back on those payments, they were summarily ejected. 


How did such advanced civilizations fall to pieces? When Egypt and Mesopotamia were thriving, the European populations were not much above living in caves.

That was pre-Islam, of course: before Muhammed set foot on the Earth...


There was a time when Islamic science was on the leading edge of world technology.

I'm trying to recall whether it was ever "Islamic" science - Arab science, certainly; Hindu science, defnitely.  ISTM that the Arab world has become less scientific the more powerful Islam has become.  Arguably quite similar to the way has Christianity stifled the sciences throughout most of its history.


This is absolutely NO DIFFERENT to how WW2 was won. Russians, Americans, and British took a ruthless approach to the German and Japanese armies and the populations that supported them And it was over.

Of course it's different - for one thing, then you could be sure who the enemy were.  To go into places like Chechnya and start killing innocent civilians because you think they might be supporting the terrorists would be a far worse crime than the terrorists themselves are committing - your "solution" is facile and oversimplistic: are you sure you don't work for the US foreign policy department?