» OLD MESSAGE ARCHIVES «
The Pop Culture Information Society...
Messageboard Archive Index, In The 00s - The Pop Culture Information Society
Welcome to the archived messages from In The 00s. This archive stretches back to 1998 in some instances, and contains a nearly complete record of all the messages posted to inthe00s.com. You will also find an archive of the messages from inthe70s.com, inthe80s.com, inthe90s.com and amiright.com before they were combined to form the inthe00s.com messageboard.
If you are looking for the active messages, please click here. Otherwise, use the links below or on the right hand side of the page to navigate the archives.
Custom Search
This is a topic from the Current Politics and Religious Topics forum on inthe00s.
Subject: The Flipper costumes convinced me, he's a flip-flopper, all right.
Written By: MooRocca on 08/30/04 at 12:18 pm
Aides clad in Flipper costumes are said to have been sent "Rove"ing around NY to illustrate Kerry's flip-flopping. Instead of making me think ill of Kerry's flip-flops, it made me think "it takes one to know one." So, here's some the "flip side"
Bush opposed stem cell research as an abomination to the sanctity of life. Then flipped on the issue, basically saying that it is not an abomination to continue research using existing stem cell lines, because those abominations have already taken place.  (Kind of like -- "It's an abomination to kill and eat your grandma, but if she's already dead, bon appetit!")ÂÂ
During the 2000 South Carolina Primary, Bush took a strong "states rights" position on the issue of medical marijuana. As President, he's had patients' cooperatives in California raided.
In his State of the Union Address, President Bush called for a $500 personal-exemption increase for families, he later sent Congress a second proposal dropping that increase.
In (2002?) Bush said he'd never use Sept. 11th for political gain. Today, his Veep stood in front of the towerless skyline to give a televised speech in the kicking off of the Republican National Convention and (as I understand it, I have not seen the ads, myself, to verify that they exist or who's paying for them) the Bush campaign is running television ads which show footage of Firefighters emerging from the smouldering rubble of the towers in the wake of the attacks.ÂÂ
Cheney Flip Flops: Bush's Veep & Running Mate, Dick Cheney took the word "sensitive" out of context to ridicule Kerry and show why Kerry should not be President of a war time America.
Kerry said (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A42212-2004Aug5?language=printer):
"I will fight this war on terror with the lessons I learned in war. I defended this country as a young man, and I will defend it as president of the United States.
I believe I can fight a more effective, more thoughtful, more strategic, more proactive, more sensitive war on terror that reaches out to other nations and brings them to our side and lives up to American values in history.
I lay out a strategy to strengthen our military, to build and lead strong alliances and reform our intelligence system. I set out a path to win the peace in Iraq and to get the terrorists, wherever they may be, before they get us."
Cheney responded with (http://www.whitheouse.gov/news/releases/2004/08/20040812-3.html):
"Senator Kerry has also said that if he were in charge he would fight a "more sensitive" war on terror. (Laughter.) America has been in too many wars for any of our wishes, but not a one of them was won by being sensitive. President Lincoln and General Grant did not wage sensitive warfare -- nor did President Roosevelt, nor Generals Eisenhower and MacArthur. A "sensitive war" will not destroy the evil men who killed 3,000 Americans and who seek the chemical, nuclear and biological weapons to kill hundreds of thousands more. The men who beheaded Daniel Pearl and Paul Johnson will not be impressed by our sensitivity. As our opponents see it, the problem isn't the thugs and murderers that we face, but our attitude. Well, the American people know better. They know that we are in a fight to preserve our freedom and our way of life, and that we are on the side of rights and justice in this battle. Those who threaten us and kill innocents around the world do not need to be treated more sensitively. They need to be destroyed. (Applause.) "
But, Cheney is currently campaigning for and running with George W. Bush, who in remarks to the Unity Journalists of Color Convention, (http://www.whitheouse.gov/news/releases/2004/08/20040806-1.html) in early August of this year said:
"Now in terms of the balance between running down intelligence and bringing people to justice obviously is -- we need to be very sensitive on that." ÂÂ
and who, in a speech given in March of 2001, (http://www.reagan.navy.mil/bush_speech.htm) had said:
"Precisely because America is powerful, we must be sensitive about expressing our power and influence. Our goal is to patiently build the momentum of freedom, not create resentment for America itself. We pursue our goals; we will listen to others; we want strong friends to join us, not weak neighbors to dominate. In all our dealings with other nations, we will display the modesty of true confidence and strength."
Vice President Cheney's opinion on sensitivity flips and flops depending on who's talking about being sensitive. Apparantly Bush has a problem running against an alleged flip-flopper, but no problem sharing a ticket with an alleged flip-flopper or with being an alleged flip-flopper, himself.
The following list (in italics) is copied straight from: http://www.democrats.org/specialreports/top10_flipflops/
The Bush Record: Top 10 Bush Flip Flops
1. Bush Flip-Flops on Independent 9/11 Commission
Bush Flip: Initially Opposed to Independent 9/11 Commission
Bush opposed an independent inquiry into 9/11, arguing it would duplicate a probe conducted by Congress. In July 2002, his administration issued a "statement of policy" that read "...the Administration would oppose an amendment that would create a new commission to conduct a similar review ."
Bush Flop: Bush Relented and Appointed Independent Commission
President Bush finally agreed to support an independent investigation into the 9/11 attacks after "the congressional committees unearthed more and more examples of intelligence lapses, the administration reversed its stance."
2. Bush Flip-Flops on Independent WMD Commission
Bush Flip: Refuses to Call for Independent Bipartisan Commission on Weapons of Mass Destruction
"President Bush said on January 30, 2004, 'I want to know the facts' about any intelligence failures concerning Saddam Hussein's alleged cache of forbidden weapons but he declined to endorse calls for an independent investigation."
Bush Flop: Bush Appoints WMD Investigation Commission
President Bush named a nine-member bipartisan commission to investigate U.S. intelligence-gathering capabilities in February 2004. The AP noted, "Bush had initially opposed a commission, but agreed to do so as calls grew from Republican lawmakers as well as Democrats." The Los Angeles Times reported, "The White House opposed that panel initially, then backed down under pressure, and some say administration officials now regret doing so because the administration has become locked in a series of embarrassing battles with the Sept. 11 commission." The New York Times noted Bush "gave the panel until March 2005, well after the November elections, to submit its conclusions."
3. Bush Flip-Flops on Time He'll Spend With 9/11 Commission
Bush Flip: Would Meet For Only One Hour With 9/11 Commission
McClellan: Obviously, as part of this, the President will be meeting with the chairman and vice chairman at some point in the near future. We are still working on the exact time of that meeting. We have discussed with the commission what we believe is a reasonable period of time to provide the chairman and vice chairman with answers to all of their questions.
Q: Is that the one-hour time frame?
McClellan: That's what I'm referring to.
Bush Flop: White House Says No Time Limit on President's Testimony
"President George W. Bush will privately answer all questions raised by the federal commission investigating the September 11 attacks, the White House said, suggesting that Bush might allow the interview to extend beyond the one-hour limit originally offered to the panel by the White House. 'He's going to answer all the questions they want to raise,' said the White House spokesman, Scott McClellan, whose remarks suggested that the White House was softening its negotiating stance toward the bipartisan commission. 'Nobody's watching the clock.'"
4. Bush Flip-Flops On Calling For A U.N. Vote On Iraq War
Bush Flip: U.S. Will Seek U.N. Vote For War With Iraq
Bush: ...yes, we'll call for a vote.
Question: No matter what?
Bush: No matter what the whip count is, we're calling for the vote. We want to see people stand up and say what their opinion is about Saddam Hussein and the utility of the United Nations Security Council. And so, you bet. It's time for people to show their cards, let the world know where they stand when it comes to Saddam.
Bush Flop: Bush Attacked Iraq Without U.N. Vote
Bush "failed to win explicit council approval for the use of force" in Iraq. Two days before bombs began to fall in Iraq, the Bush administration withdrew its resolution from the UN Security Council that would have authorized military force. Bush abandoned his call for a vote after it became clear that the US could muster only four votes in support of force.
5. Bush Flip-Flops on Department Of Homeland Security
Bush Flip: Bush Thought Homeland Security Cabinet Position Was "Just Not Necessary"
In October 2001, White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer said Bush opposed creating Office of Homeland Security position for Ridge. "he president has suggested to members of Congress that they do not need to make this a statutory post, that he does not need Cabinet rank, for example, there does not need to be a Cabinet-level Office of Homeland Security is because there is such overlap among the various agencies, because every agency of the government has security concerns," Fleischer said.
Bush Flop: Bush Decides to Support Homeland Security
The New York Times reported, "Bush initially resisted Democratic proposals for a Cabinet-level agency. But once he endorsed it, the president pushed Congress for fast action as it debated such issues as whistle-blower protections, concerns over civil liberties and collective bargaining for department employees."
In remarks to Homeland Security Department employees, Bush claimed credit for supporting the Department: "In just 12 months, under the leadership of your President...you faced the challenges standing up this new Department and you get a -- and a gold star for a job well done."
6. Bush Flip-Flops on Gay Marriage
Bush Flip: It's Up to the States to Decide
In a 2000 presidential primary debate, candidate George W. Bush said gay marriage was a state's issue, saying, "The state can do what they want to do. Don't try to trap me in this state's issue like you're trying to get me into."
Bush Flop: Bush Supports Constitutional Amendment That Restricts States' Rights
Bush: "If we are to prevent the meaning of marriage from being changed forever, our nation must enact a constitutional amendment to protect marriage in America. Decisive and democratic action is needed, because attempts to redefine marriage in a single state or city could have serious consequences throughout the country."
7. Bush Flip-Flops on Using Military For Nation Building
Bush Flip: Bush Promised Not to Use Military for Nation Building
In a campaign rally in Tennessee, then-Presidential candidate Bush criticized the Clinton administration for using the military in nation-building missions. Bush said, "I'm worried about an opponent who uses nation-building and the military in the same sentence. See, our view of the military is for our military to be properly prepared to fight and win war and, therefore, prevent war from happening in the first place."
Bush Flop: President Used Military for Nation Building in Afghanistan and Iraq
After the removal of the Taliban in Afghanistan, Bush met with soldiers stationed in Afghanistan at the White House and thanked them for their nation building efforts. A senior administration official said, "The administration, with its international partners, is doing something akin to nation-building." The plans for a post war Iraq also included nation building measures and, according to the Baltimore Sun, "Secretary of State Colin L. Powell confirmed...that Bush was considering, among other options, installing a U.S.-led occupation government if Hussein's regime is removed."
8. Bush Flip-Flops on Hybrid Automobiles
Bush Flip: Bush Mocked Gore's Tax Credit for Hybrid Cars
"'How many of you own hybrid electric gasoline engine vehicles? If you look under there, you'll see that's one of the criteria necessary to receive tax relief. So when he talks about targeted tax relief that's pretty darn targeted,' Bush told the Arlington Heights rally, drawing laughs."
Bush Flop: Bush Supported Investing in Hybrid Cars
In his State of the Union speech, Bush said, "Tonight I am proposing $1.2 billion in research funding so that America can lead the world in developing clean, hydrogen-powered automobiles. ... Join me in this important innovation, to make our air significantly cleaner, and our country much less dependent on foreign sources of energy."
9. Bush Flip-Flops on Assault Weapons Ban
Bush Flip: Bush Supports Extending Assault Weapons Ban
Ashcroft: "It is my understanding that the president-elect of the United States has indicated his clear support for extending the assault weapons ban, and I will be pleased to move forward with that position."
Bush Flop: Bush Opposes Extension of Assault Weapons Ban
"The White House is opposing addition of gun show and assault weapons restrictions to a bill shielding firearms makers and dealers from lawsuits, prompting angry complaints from Democrats that President Bush is reneging on earlier support for the two proposals...In a statement , the White House urged passage of the lawsuits measure without amendments that might delay its enactment. 'Any amendment that would delay enactment of the bill beyond this year is unacceptable,' the statement said. Democrats interpreted this as an effort to undermine support for the gun-control measures. 'For the president to say he is for the assault weapons ban but then act against it is a flip-flop if there ever was one,' said Sen. Charles E. Schumer (D-N.Y.), one of several sponsors of the assault weapons proposal in the Senate."
10. Bush Flip-Flops on Steel Tariffs
Bush Flip: Bush Imposes Steel Tariffs
"President Bush on slapped punishing tariffs of 8% to 30% on several types of imported steel in an effort to help the ailing U.S. industry, drawing criticism from American allies and mixed reviews at home. 'An integral part of our commitment to free trade is our commitment to enforcing trade laws to make sure that America's industries and workers compete on a level playing field,' Bush said in a statement issued by the White House."
Bush Flop: Bush Rescinds Steel Tariffs
"Facing a potential global trade war, President Bush on lifted tariffs he imposed on foreign steel 21 months ago, declaring the U.S. steel industry healthy and ready to compete despite the industry's claim that it needs more time to recover."
The following list (in bold italics) was copied directly from
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/3/7/213753/1954
Bush's flip flops
by kos
Mon Mar 8th, 2004 at 01:37:53 GMT
So Bush has a site somewhere that tracks Kerry's "flip-flops". Reader TK probably spent three seconds coming up with this list of Bush flip flops. It's not like they're hard to find:
Bush is against campaign finance reform; then he's for it.
Bush is against a Homeland Security Department; then he's for it.
Bush is against a 9/11 commission; then he's for it.
Bush is against an Iraq WMD investigation; then he's for it.
Bush is against nation building; then he's for it.
Bush is against deficits; then he's for them.
Bush is for free trade; then he's for tariffs on steel; then he's against them again.
Bush is against the U.S. taking a role in the Israeli Palestinian conflict; then he pushes for a "road map" and a Palestinian State.
Bush is for states right to decide on gay marriage, then he is for changing the constitution.
Bush first says he'll provide money for first responders (fire, police, emergency), then he doesn't.
Bush first says that 'help is on the way' to the military ... then he cuts benefits
Bush-"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. Bush-"I don't know where he is. I have no idea and I really don't care.
Bush claims to be in favor of the environment and then secretly starts drilling on Padre Island.
Bush talks about helping education and increases mandates while cutting funding.
Bush first says the U.S. won't negotiate with North Korea. Now he will
Bush goes to Bob Jones University. Then say's he shouldn't have.
Bush said he would demand a U.N. Security Council vote on whether to sanction military action against Iraq. Later Bush announced he would not call for a vote
Bush said the "mission accomplished" banner was put up by the sailors. Bush later admits it was his advance team.
Bush was for fingerprinting and photographing Mexicans who enter the US. Bush after meeting with Pres. Fox, he's against it.
(This is getting lengthy, so I'll stop here)
So, the point of this whole thing is to remind everyone that if you see those Flipper costumes flopping their way through New York, bear in mind which candidate's campaign aides are wearing them. ÂÂ
In addition to my own memory of these flip-flops, my sources, memory refreshers, cross-check sources, pages that saved my fingers from a lot of typing and additional "just for fun" reading on the topic included, but were not limited to:
http://www.xent.com/pipermail/fork/2003-April/020521.html
http://www.matthewyglesias.com/archives/002709.html
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/3/7/213753/1954
http://www.reagan.navy.mil/bush_speech.htm
http://www.whitheouse.gov/news/releases/2004/08/20040806-1.html
http://www.whitheouse.gov/news/releases/2004/08/20040812-3.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A42212-2004Aug5?language=printer
Subject: Re: The Flipper costumes convinced me, he's a flip-flopper, all right.
Written By: MaxwellSmart on 08/30/04 at 1:08 pm
I agree with you entirely, but Mehli, my dear, it's not about Bush's record, it's about associating "Kerry" with denigrating concepts like "flip-flopping."
Any question?NO,good!
::)
Subject: Re: The Flipper costumes convinced me, he's a flip-flopper, all right.
Written By: MooRocca on 08/30/04 at 1:29 pm
I agree with you entirely, but Mehli, my dear, it's not about Bush's record, it's about associating "Kerry" with denigrating concepts like "flip-flopping."
Any question?NO,good!
::)
True enough, Maxwell. I liked the "Kerry looks French" one better, though... and it would have been more fiscally conservative for the campaign to use the mimes already harassing people in NY to illustrate that point than to rent all of those dolphin costumes. ;D
Subject: Re: The Flipper costumes convinced me, he's a flip-flopper, all right.
Written By: Don Carlos on 08/30/04 at 2:09 pm
Seems to me that "flip-flop" is too poilte a term. To amend an old joke, there are flip-flopers, liars, darn liars, ans statisticians. The man in the white house is a statistician.
Subject: Re: The Flipper costumes convinced me, he's a flip-flopper, all right.
Written By: philbo on 08/31/04 at 8:58 am
Sorry, DC - I have to disagree with you there: Bush is no statistician. If he were, he'd have stood up and said "3000 people killed in the World Trade Centre is as nothing to the tens of thousands killed on our roads each year, and dwindles into insignificance beside the number of untimely deaths caused by smoking"
Subject: Re: The Flipper costumes convinced me, he's a flip-flopper, all right.
Written By: MaxwellSmart on 08/31/04 at 8:02 pm
Sorry, DC - I have to disagree with you there: Bush is no statistician. If he were, he'd have stood up and said "3000 people killed in the World Trade Centre is as nothing to the tens of thousands killed on our roads each year, and dwindles into insignificance beside the number of untimely deaths caused by smoking"
Juxtaposing the number of deaths by traffic accident versus number of deaths by terrorism illustrates an interesting point. However, deaths by traffic, smoking, and so forth are not deliberate slaughter.
In America, we have anywhere from fourteen to twenty-two thousand deaths by gun every year, several times more than the number killed on 9/11.
Subject: Re: The Flipper costumes convinced me, he's a flip-flopper, all right.
Written By: philbo on 09/01/04 at 2:05 am
Juxtaposing the number of deaths by traffic accident versus number of deaths by terrorism illustrates an interesting point. However, deaths by traffic, smoking, and so forth are not deliberate slaughter.
In America, we have anywhere from fourteen to twenty-two thousand deaths by gun every year, several times more than the number killed on 9/11.
Agreed, they're not deliberate slaughter: but when more than ten times the number of people are killed per year on the roads in one country alone than in the world's worst ever terrorist atrocity you have to think that the perception of risk is more than a little bit skewed. I just think we are all making WAY too much of the terrorist threat.
Subject: Re: The Flipper costumes convinced me, he's a flip-flopper, all right.
Written By: MaxwellSmart on 09/01/04 at 2:29 am
Agreed, they're not deliberate slaughter: but when more than ten times the number of people are killed per year on the roads in one country alone than in the world's worst ever terrorist atrocity you have to think that the perception of risk is more than a little bit skewed. I just think we are all making WAY too much of the terrorist threat.
The political hay the Republicans are making of 9/11 and the so-called "War on Terror" is obscene. It's an obtuse method of scaring the population into running to the protective arms of Big Brother. I hate it too much to watch!
>:(
Subject: Re: The Flipper costumes convinced me, he's a flip-flopper, all right.
Written By: philbo on 09/01/04 at 7:53 am
Agreed: with the end of the cold war, a new bogeyman was required...
...ISTM that Al Q is fitting the bill quite nicely, thank you :(
Subject: Re: The Flipper costumes convinced me, he's a flip-flopper, all right.
Written By: MooRocca on 09/01/04 at 8:19 am
MooRocca, did you put the "grandma's already dead so it's okay to eat her" comment in? That cracked me up ;D
Yeah... it's been my stock comment on the rationalization he gave for his flip-flop on stem cell since I first heard it.
Subject: Re: The Flipper costumes convinced me, he's a flip-flopper, all right.
Written By: MaxwellSmart on 09/01/04 at 2:32 pm
After all his rhetoric about the "War on Terror" being the fight for our very survival, he cops to what thinking people knew all along, you can't REALLY "win" the war. What Dumbya really needs to 'fess up to his the way the depravity of his foreign policy has made the whole world MORE vulnerable to terrorism, not less. But don't hold your breath!
::)
Subject: Re: The Flipper costumes convinced me, he's a flip-flopper, all right.
Written By: Don Carlos on 09/01/04 at 2:48 pm
Sorry, DC - I have to disagree with you there: Bush is no statistician. If he were, he'd have stood up and said "3000 people killed in the World Trade Centre is as nothing to the tens of thousands killed on our roads each year, and dwindles into insignificance beside the number of untimely deaths caused by smoking"
Maybe not (have no idea regarding his math skills, he clearly can't balance a budget), but he is worse than a D*mn liar.
I just think we are all making WAY too much of the terrorist threat.
Here I must disagree. I do agree with Richard Clarke that THIS group of terrorists, who are perverting Islam, are a danger. If they get there way, Taliban-like states will emerge in many places, forcing other states to limit freedoms by promoting fundamentaist Christian states, which to me would be equally bad for freedom. I'm not optimistic.
The political hay the Republicans are making of 9/11 and the so-called "War on Terror" is obscene. It's an obtuse method of scaring the population into running to the protective arms of Big Brother. I hate it too much to watch!
>:(
This is a given. No argument here, but that is different from under estimating the threat possed by religious funmdamentalism (read "fantatisim") of any stripe.
Subject: Re: The Flipper costumes convinced me, he's a flip-flopper, all right.
Written By: CatwomanofV on 09/01/04 at 6:17 pm
I'm sure most of you have heard this (wasn't even going to mention it but I figured, what the he!! On Monday, there was an interview I can't remember who with (and too lazy to look it up) where Dubya said that we can't win the war on terror. Then on Tuesday he said that we CAN win and he should have been "more articulate" in that interview. Yeah right! I believe him-don't you? ::)
Cat
Subject: Re: The Flipper costumes convinced me, he's a flip-flopper, all right.
Written By: philbo on 09/02/04 at 7:50 am
Here I must disagree. I do agree with Richard Clarke that THIS group of terrorists, who are perverting Islam, are a danger. If they get there way, Taliban-like states will emerge in many places, forcing other states to limit freedoms by promoting fundamentaist Christian states, which to me would be equally bad for freedom. I'm not optimistic.
It seems to me more like the terrorists are a symptom rather than a cause: they are an offshoot of the increasing fundamentalist Islamic movement, not its prime mover. As such, fighting the terrorists will be like cutting heads off a hydra, as you'll never be able to stem the tide of new recruits without sorting out the reasons why these people think that dying for the cause is a good idea.
But please don't ask me what I think we should be doing: if I had an answer to that one... but somehow I don't see our best move under the circumstances as invading other countries and torturing people...
Subject: Re: The Flipper costumes convinced me, he's a flip-flopper, all right.
Written By: Don Carlos on 09/02/04 at 9:30 am
It seems to me more like the terrorists are a symptom rather than a cause: they are an offshoot of the increasing fundamentalist Islamic movement, not its prime mover. As such, fighting the terrorists will be like cutting heads off a hydra, as you'll never be able to stem the tide of new recruits without sorting out the reasons why these people think that dying for the cause is a good idea.
But please don't ask me what I think we should be doing: if I had an answer to that one... but somehow I don't see our best move under the circumstances as invading other countries and torturing people...
I totally agree with this expansion of your earlier remark.