With all the questioning of John Kerry and his military record I was surfing and found this.  I'm not easily surprised at some of these guy but I was taken aback at this record.


    Military service by prominent Democrats:

    *  Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle - 1st Lt., U.S. Air Force SAC 1969-72 .
    * Senator Tom Harkin (D-IA) - Lt., U.S. Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74. (1, 2)
    * Senator Fritz Hollings (D-SC) - served as a U.S. Army officer in World War II, receiving the Bronze    Star and seven campaign ribbons.
    * Senator Daniel Inouye, US Army 1943-'47; Medal of Honor, World War Two.
    * Senator Ted Kennedy (D-MA) - U.S. Army, 1951-1953. o
    * Senator John Kerry, Lt., U.S. Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V, and three awards of the Purple Heart for his service in combat.
    * Senator Jack Reed (D-RI) - U.S. Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91 (1)
    * Max Cleland, Former Senator, Captain, U.S. Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam
    * Bob Kerrey, Former Senator, Lt. j.g., U.S. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam.
    * Rep. Richard Gephardt, former House Minority Leader - Missouri Air National Guard, 1965-71.
    * Rep. David Bonior, Representative, (D-MI) - Former House Minority Whip - Staff Sgt., Air Force, 1968-72
    * Rep. Mike Thompson, D-CA: Staff sergeant/platoon leader with the 173rd Airborne Brigade, U.S. Army; was wounded and received a Purple Heart.
    * Rep. Pete Stark, D-CA, served in the Air Force 1955-57
    * Wesley Clark, General, US Army.
    * Al Gore, Former Vice President - enlisted August 1969; sent to Vietnam January 1971.
    * Bill Clinton, did not serve.

Military service by prominent Republicans attacked by the right wing

    * John McCain, US Senator (AZ) - McCain's naval honors include the Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross. (Attacked by Bush Campaign for President as having become mentally unstable while a POW.)
    * Colin Powell. Secretary of State, General. US Army, Attacked by many on Radical Right for being an appeaser, soft on Saddam and other enemies.

Prominent right-wing Republicans and military service

    * George W. Bush - National Guard back when service there meant you did not see combat. Even so, went AWOL for a year.
    * dip Cheney - did not serve.
    * John Ashcroft, Attorney General - did not serve.
    * Don Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense - served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as an aviator and flight instructor.
    * Rep. Dennis Hastert, Speaker of the House - avoided the draft, did not serve.
    * Rep. Tom Delay, House Majority Leader - avoided the draft, did not serve.
    * Rep. Roy Blunt, House Majority Whip (MO) - did not serve
    * dip Armey, Former House Majority Leader - avoided the draft, did not serve.
    * Sen. Bill Frist , Senate Majority Leader (TN) - did not serve.
    * Sen. Mitch McConnell, Majority Whip, (KY) - did not serve.
    * Sen. Rick Santorum, (PA), third ranking Republican in the Senate - did not serve. (1)
    * Trent Lott, Former Senate Majority Leader (MS) - avoided the draft, did not serve.
    * Jeb Bush, Florida Governor - did not serve.
    * Karl Rove - avoided the draft, did not serve.
    * Newt Gingrich, Former Speaker of the House - avoided the draft, did not serve.
    * Bill Bennett, (author of Why We Fight), did not serve.
    * Antonin Scalia, Supreme Court Justice, did not serve.
    * Clarence Thomas, Supreme Court Justice, did not serve.
    * Phil Gramm, former Senator. Did not serve.
    * Paul Wolfowitz, Deputy Secretary of Defense, did not serve.
    * Spencer Abraham, Secretary of Energy, did not serve.
    * Rep. Henry Hyde, (IL) did not serve.
    * Jack Kemp, did not serve.
    * Sen. Don Nickles, (OK) did not serve.
    * J. C. Watts, Former Congressman, (OK), did not serve.
    * Bill Simon, did not serve.
    * Saxby Chambliss, did not serve.
    * Marc Racicot, avoided the draft despite a lottery number of 23. see http://www.billingsnews.com/story?storyid=3182&issue=98


Right-wing preachers and pundits

    * P. J. O'Rourke (author of Give War a Chance), did not serve.
    * Bill Kristol, editor The Weekly Standard, did not serve.
    * Bill O'Reilly, Fox News celebrity, did not serve.
    * Sean Hannity, Fox News celebrity, did not serve.
    * Wolf Blitzer, CNN Newsman. Did not serve.
    * David Horowitz, Right Wing media hit man. Did not serve.
    * Mike Savage, Right Wing media hit man, did not serve.
    * George Will, columnist, did not serve.
    * Pat Robertson, politician/preacher, His US Senator daddy got him out of Korea when war began.
    * Ralph Reed, did not serve.
    * Jerry Falwell, preacher/politician, did not serve.
    * Ken Starr, did not serve.
    * Gary Bauer, politician/preacher, did not serve.
    * Alan Keyes, did not serve.
    * Roger Ailes, Fox News President, did not serve.

For additional information. go to:
http://www.nhgazette.com/chickenhawks.html

Thanks for the linx, Danoota, I'll check 'em out.  It is always amusing (in a nauseating sort of way) to see how few of the right-wing warmongers actually served time in the military.  However, I'd be cautious of taking this at face value.  Fox News is never short of right wing pundits from the military.  You know, you've got General Haig, Col. Hackworth, Col. Hunt and so forth.  I don't know the military records of all the Republicans off hand, but I'd be surprised if there were not quite a few of them who DID serve but were conveniently left out off the list.
It's also a relatively recent phenomenon for the sons of privilege to avoid military service.  Prior to the 1950s, the moneyed classes were expected by their own to serve their country, like Daddy Bush.  Perhaps it was an atavistic vestige from the British aristocracy who were expected to be first in battle going all the way back to the knights of feudalism.  The British lost a huge number of their royals in WWI and WWII.

Thanks for the linx, Danoota, I'll check 'em out.  It is always amusing (in a nauseating sort of way) to see how few of the right-wing warmongers actually served time in the military.  However, I'd be cautious of taking this at face value.  Fox News is never short of right wing pundits from the military.  You know, you've got General Haig, Col. Hackworth, Col. Hunt and so forth.  I don't know the military records of all the Republicans off hand, but I'd be surprised if there were not quite a few of them who DID serve but were conveniently left out off the list.
It's also a relatively recent phenomenon for the sons of privilege to avoid military service.  Prior to the 1950s, the moneyed classes were expected by their own to serve their country, like Daddy Bush.  Perhaps it was an atavistic vestige from the British aristocracy who were expected to be first in battle going all the way back to the knights of feudalism.  The British lost a huge number of their royals in WWI and WWII.


Yes, they were brought up with a certain sense of duty that has been lost by the new generation. With priviledge comes responsibility.  That and the fact that many of them were so incompetent, because they got their commissions through the daddy factor, that their own men, in order to survive, shot them.
I think the pundits and preachers list pissed me off more than the congressional list.

Yes, they were brought up with a certain sense of duty that has been lost by the new generation. With priviledge comes responsibility.  That and the fact that many of them were so incompetent, because they got their commissions through the daddy factor, that their own men, in order to survive, shot them.
I think the pundits and preachers list ticked me off more than the congressional list.

True.  In order to be a Lieutenant, you really needed a college education.  Not all were rich boys like Kerry, many were just regular Joes who went through ROTC.  Sometimes when the orders got too atrocious, the soldiers decided it was preferable to kill their lieutenant than massacre an entire village.  They'd just chalk it up to a friendly fire accident.  This didn't happen to Lt. William Calley of the My Lai massacre.  Calley was nasty little piece of work, but he basically took the fall for his superior, Captain Medina.  Medina gave the order to "waste 'em," and Calley did.  In a way, Calley was the scapegoat for the whole atracious war.  What distinguishes Calley is he got caught.  In the the end, even Calley just got a slap on the wrist and went on to become a successful jeweler with a Mercedes Benz.
>:(

Anyway, I was thinking, would you really want to be down in a fox hole with Pat Robertson and William Kristol?
:o

Al Franken wrote a great spoof piece about the chickenhawks in Lies and the Lying Liars, a sort of What If Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Pat Buchanan were on a swift boat.  Hilarious!
;D

From a slightly different perspective than Max's, my impression, from vets I have known and from what I have heard military people say, is that they hate war.  Its the last thing they want to see.  Its, as Franken calls them, the chickenhawks, who have never experienced it, who are gung ho on sending other men's children to war, and therefore to their deaths.  Gen Sherman got it right, "war is hell" and no mistake.  Its only those who never experienced it, like Lill' Georgie and co. who think it ... what? glorious?

From a slightly different perspective than Max's, my impression, from vets I have known and from what I have heard military people say, is that they hate war.  Its the last thing they want to see.  Its, as Franken calls them, the chickenhawks, who have never experienced it, who are gung ho on sending other men's children to war, and therefore to their deaths.  Gen Sherman got it right, "war is hell" and no mistake.  Its only those who never experienced it, like Lill' Georgie and co. who think it ... what? glorious?

Those who have seen combat hate war, unless they're psychopaths like Lt. Col. Oliver North!

Those who have seen combat hate war, unless they're psychopaths like Lt. Col. Oliver North!


Evan officers who have never seen combat are reluctant.  Those who have are especially  so.

Here, here! I couldn't agree any more.

Tanya

Evan officers who have never seen combat are reluctant. Those who have are especially so.


I think most people are reluctant to go to war.  Even those of us who have never been in the military.  Most people realize that it is not a good thing.  I know there are those that love the idea, but they are the exception not the rule.

I think most people are reluctant to go to war.  Even those of us who have never been in the military.  Most people realize that it is not a good thing.  I know there are those that love the idea, but they are the exception not the rule.


Unfortunately, the ones who love the idea are in the White House.  THey were planning this war BEFORE 9/11, at least according to Paul O'Niel, Bush's former Sec of the Treasury.  And  guess what!  None of them served in combat, and we all know how Lil' Georgie got out.

I think most people are reluctant to go to war.  Even those of us who have never been in the military.  Most people realize that it is not a good thing.  I know there are those that love the idea, but they are the exception not the rule.

I'm not so sure about that.  If you check into the origins of wars in the 20th century you will find alot of
it was for trumped up excuses under the guise of liberation.  We can start with the farce, except for the
people who lived in it,of  the Spanish American War, WWI was a family feud, Korea, Viet Nam, Desert Storm. History has shown questionable motives for the American prescence in these wars.  We could
actually take this back as far as the War for Independence(whose independence is a question here),
but I would expect there is enough in the 20/21st centuries to keep us busy.

A minor point in defense of a single person:

* P. J. O'Rourke (author of Give War a Chance), did not serve.

P.J. O'Rourke is not only a great writer, he was an admitted hippie during his college years (the Vietnam years) and became a conservative later.  This probably does not conflict with the post's main point at all, but I'm just saying.  I like P.J. O'Rourke.

I think Mushroom and I are the only ones on this board who have served in the military (please correct me if I am wrong about this). Of course I can't speak for Mushroom-only for myself. When I was in, it was during "peace time"-if you could call it that-the end of the Cold War. I really didn't like the thought of having to go to war. We did play our "war games" so we would be "prepared" just in case. I will be the first one to tell you that I was not (and still not) "military material"-I don't like guns. But I did serve my country and yes, I am proud of that. But, if I had to go into combat, I don't know how I would have handled it-IF I could have handled it. I got out of the service right before Dessert Storm-not by choice. I was medically discharged. Looking at it from retropect, it was a very good thing. However, I knew people who were going over there. I really didn't relish that thought. I had a friend who got out of active duty and went into reserves. Then, he went to Panama (to oust Noriega) and then on to Dessert Storm. I lost contact with him but heard from a mututal friend that he is now suffering from Gulf War Syndrome.  I'm not too sure how he is doing. But I can bet that the military or VA is not helping him out at all. That is what really p!sses me off. Uncle Sam can send men and woman into combat, risk their limbs and lives and then totally forget about them. Ok, you served your purpose, now you are on your own. And it really bothers me that these people in Washington are so quick to send people to DIE for their own glory without flinching. They also don't understand the long term effect-not just the political fallout but the psychological ones. My sister's ex-husband lost part of his face (literary) on Hamburger Hill in Viatnam. My sister told me that he would still have nightmares about it-decades later. Never seeing combat myself, I can't even imagine the horrors that are faced. I think if our "fearless leaders" were to see combat, they would not be so quick to send others.



Cat

My guess is that just about everyone has seen Saving Private Ryan.  My dad was there, and I asked him how accurate those first scense of the invasion were.  His reponse was "it was worse".

All hail the chickenhawks, willing to send other men's (and women's) children to their deaths.

With all the questioning of John Kerry and his military record I was surfing and found this.  I'm not easily surprised at some of these guy but I was taken aback at this record.

Military service by prominent Republicans attacked by the right wing

    * John McCain, US Senator (AZ) - McCain's naval honors include the Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross. (Attacked by Bush Campaign for President as having become mentally unstable while a POW.)
    * Colin Powell. Secretary of State, General. US Army, Attacked by many on Radical Right for being an appeaser, soft on Saddam and other enemies.
I would like to add Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-Nebraska) to your list. He served in Vietnam from 1967-68 and received the Bronze Star and two Purple Hearts. He has also been an outspoken critic of President Bush's policies in Iraq and has been criticized by the right wing.

I think Mushroom and I are the only ones on this board who have served in the military (please correct me if I am wrong about this)..
I served in the U.S. Army in Germany from 1989-92. My unit was not deployed to the Persian Gulf theater.

I served in the U.S. Army in Germany from 1989-92. My unit was not deployed to the Persian Gulf theater.



Thanks for pointing that out to me. I wasn't too sure if anyone else served or not.


Have you gotten any help from the V.A. since you got out?




Cat

Thanks for pointing that out to me. I wasn't too sure if anyone else served or not.


Have you gotten any help from the V.A. since you got out?




Cat
Well...I used the G.I Bill for about a year of college and I dropped out.  I'm still eligible for a V.A. housing loan, however, and since I'm relocating soon I might use it in the next couple of years. BTW--what was your M.O.S? (I was an 88M--Motor Transport Operator...a fancy term for "truck driver.")

Well...I used the G.I Bill for about a year of college and I dropped out.  I'm still eligible for a V.A. housing loan, however, and since I'm relocating soon I might use it in the next couple of years. BTW--what was your M.O.S? (I was an 88M--Motor Transport Operator...a fancy term for "truck driver.")



At first I was in telecommunications-that meant that I could have been a telephone operator (which I did for a short period of time) and then I worked in the Com-Center, sending and recieving messages. I really hated it. Then I re-trained into training management. I worked in the OJT office (for those of you who don't know what that means "On-The-Job-Training"). I did not train people per say, I just made sure that their supervisers were training them. I thought it was the best job in the A.F.




Cat

You military dudes do like to remenise  ;).  Check out those first sense of Saving Private Ryan, then magnify the horror a few times.  My dad doesn't like to talk about that stuff.  He prefers to focus on the drunken escapades while on leave.  No wonder.

Let me be clear.  I in no way want to depricate the sevice that folks in uniform have rendered, but just remember that Gen Sherman got it right.  "War is hell" and never forget it.

I would add that closing VA hospitals and cutting vets' benefits, as this admin has done seems to be a less than adaquate way to "support out troops".

You military dudes do like to remenise  ;).  Check out those first sense of Saving Private Ryan, then magnify the horror a few times.  My dad doesn't like to talk about that stuff.  He prefers to focus on the drunken escapades while on leave.  No wonder.

Let me be clear.  I in no way want to depricate the sevice that folks in uniform have rendered, but just remember that Gen Sherman got it right.  "War is hell" and never forget it.

I would add that closing VA hospitals and cutting vets' benefits, as this admin has done seems to be a less than adaquate way to "support out troops".
El Conquistador Don--

You must realize that there is a certain kind of bond between military veterans, even among those who have not experienced combat, that those who have not served cannot fully understand. (In no way am I trying to say that I am better than anyone who has not served.) I work with a lot of guys who served in Vietnam, and even though I am much younger than them and was never in a war zone, they still feel a connection with me. Although I was happy to get out when my term of enlistment was up, I also am very glad that I went through that whole experience, and I look back on it as being the most exciting and adventurous period in my life. I'm certain that if Cat and I could sit down and have a beer or two, we'd have all kinds of stories about some of the weird sh*t we saw. :D

You mentioned that your father doesn't like to talk about his combat experiences. I had a friend from high school who enlisted a year after I did (and who was every bit as big as a goofball as I am), who did serve in the first Gulf War and who participated first-hand in the invasion of Kuwait. After the war had ended, we happened to be home on leave at the same time.  We were catching up and telling basic training and "drunken escapade" :) stories and laughing and just having a good time, when I asked him if he had any good "war stories." He immediately got quiet and his expression became serious and he just said simply, "I'd rather not talk about it." And I've noticed that about a lot of combat veterans. Although I've never experienced combat (and hope I never will have to in my lifetime), I'd like to think that I can appreciate what kind of trauma it must have on a person's soul.

El Conquistador Don--

Although I've never experienced combat (and hope I never will have to in my lifetime), I'd like to think that I can appreciate what kind of trauma it must have on a person's soul.


Be grateful that you will never know what combatants know.  There are too many people walking
through life with the memories of hell, afraid to sleep because of the nightmares, with anniversaries
of the death of friends who died horrifically before their eyes, with the memories of having seen, and
sometimes done, things unthinkable. You may hear the stories, or see the hurt in the eyes, but you
will never have to live with it everyday of your life.

You military dudes do like to remenise  ;). 


Hey! I resemble that remark.  ;)




Cat

From a slightly different perspective than Max's, my impression, from vets I have known and from what I have heard military people say, is that they hate war.  Its the last thing they want to see.


Yes, that is very true.  Military members *HATE* war.  It injurs and kills people.  In war, you risk all sorts of dangers, and no sane person wants that.

On the other side, we also know that *NOT* going to war can be just as bad, if not worse then war itself.  Imagine how much longer England would have kidnapped our citizens without the War of 1812.  How much longer Lybian pirates would have siezed our merchant fleet without the "Barbary Coast War".  Imagine how much sooner WWII would have ended, if Chamberlin had more of a back-bone and been firm with hitler, instead of appeasing him.

Mostly, the military members want a war they "believe in".  The Civil War was one of those, but mostly for the South.  The North did not believe in it near as strongly, seeing it as a war to "free the blacks".  They were largely apathetic to the cause, which resulted in draft riots, high desertion rates, and the losses against smaller and poorly equiped oponents.

On the other side, the South believed in it's cause.  Even when soldiers were dying of starvation and had no supplies, they kept fighting.

Vietnam was a war the military largely did not want.  It started out with good goals, and a large amount of support.  But when it changed from advisors assisting the South Vietnamese to our soldiers fighting FOR the South Vietnamese, a lot of this support vanished. 

Mostly, the military members want a war they "believe in".  The Civil War was one of those, but mostly for the South.  The North did not believe in it near as strongly, seeing it as a war to "free the blacks".  They were largely apathetic to the cause, which resulted in draft riots, high desertion rates, and the losses against smaller and poorly equipped opponents.

On the other side, the South believed in it's cause.  Even when soldiers were dying of starvation and had no supplies, they kept fighting.

Vietnam was a war the military largely did not want.  It started out with good goals, and a large amount of support.  But when it changed from advisor's assisting the South Vietnamese to our soldiers fighting FOR the South Vietnamese, a lot of this support vanished. 


That is not so, about the North not believing in the Civil War.  A great many were apathetic, if not dead
against, abolition, and were upset about the Emancipation Proclamation. Most who fought were there
to preserve the union believing that we were one nation, and should remain so.  There was rampant
desertion on both sides. The draft riots were brought about by Irish mobs who feared abolition would
allow competition for jobs with the newly freed slaves, they were severe but not widespread among other groups, a sad commentary on their community.  I think there is an aura about the southern army
because they fought so hard but lost, and we tend to embrace lost causes.

Be grateful that you will never know what combatants know.  There are too many people walking
through life with the memories of hell, afraid to sleep because of the nightmares, with anniversaries
of the death of friends who died horrifically before their eyes, with the memories of having seen, and
sometimes done, things unthinkable. You may hear the stories, or see the hurt in the eyes, but you
will never have to live with it everyday of your life.
My co-workers whom I mentioned eariler served in Vietnam are in their 50's now and they seem to be happy and well-adjusted. However I can sense that they must have went through some troubled times when they were younger. A couple of them mentioned that they were spat upon by anti-war protesters when they got off the plane. They were kind of joking about it, but I can't imagine how it must feel to go through combat and witness all of that death and destruction, and finally return home safely only to have some punk spit in your face and call you a "baby killer."  
     I mentioned that I served during the Gulf War but was not deployed to the Middle East. Back in Germany there were massive anti-war protests, including one right in front of my base, in which about 5,000 people participated. I won't go into too much detail about how this happened because it's a long story, but circumstances placed myself and a sergeant in my platoon outside the base. We had to get back inside the base but the protest was in our way, and there was no way around it. (We were also in our camoflauge fatigues.) So we wound up having to walk right through the middle of it. We braced ourselves and expected the worst. No one messed with us, except 3 or 4 12-year-old girls, who started chanting "Don't go to the desert, DESERT! Don't go to the desert, DESERT!" We kept on walking, making no eye contact with anyone in the crowd, and made it to the gate and back inside the base without further incident.
   I found the whole thing to be annoying more than anything else, and although I disagreed with their message I have to give credit to the organizers of the demonstration, who I am certain gave the protesters explicit instructions not to instigate or harass either verbally or physically any U.S. military personnel who might be in the area.
   I can only hope that those who oppose this current war (myself included) can remember the lessons of Vietnam and treat our returning service members with respect and compassion, and always remember that it is our government's policies we are against, and not them.
   

You do bring up a very good point, Al about the Vietnam vets and how they were treated when they got home. When the Gulf War started, I was already out of the service (which I do thank the Goddess for). I remember seeing a bunch of people in front of the post office in the town I worked in at that time. They had signs that said, "Support the troops." I noticed that those people holding those signs were in fact, Vietnam Vets. They were NOT going to let the men and women who came home for the Gulf be treated the same way they were. I think we can thank the Vietnam Vets for the way troops are NOW being treated when they come home. Whether you are for or against the war-I believe that most people in this country do support the troops. It is not their fault that they are in an unjust war. They are just doing their jobs. I have been against this war even before it started but I also support and respect all those who are (or were) over there. I just wish that the guys who did get us in this mess would support the troops more.




Cat