I sat down a while ago and decided that I believed in Christ, but the church was a bit too intolerant for me. Plus, it restricted free thought and denied some scientific theory. So I adopted my own belief system: I call it Absorbism!

Here's the basic construction of Absorbism. It's less of a religion then it is a system that can be added to the worship {or lack thereof} of any deity:

1. You may have any belief you desire, as long as it does not do any of the following:
     1. Restrict Free Thought
     2. Promote Harming any group or person, physically or psychologically
     3. Promote Intolerance or Hate
2. If you know of any religious groups, be sure to find at least one virtue/belief of theirs that you respect and adopt that belief, as long as it does not conflict with the first law of Absorbism.

These are my beliefs, and I follow them. I have adopted one belief from every religion I know of, from Catholicism to Satanism {yes, there are laws of Satanism that do not conflict with the First Law. They are very good ideas}


Tell me how it sounds. People have called it brilliant, people have called it blasphemous. I started it, and have persuaded a few to adopt it. Thanks for your opinions!

Personal belief is just that-personal. I can't tell you what to believe any more than you can tell me what to believe. I follow the Wicca Religion and our creed is "Do what you will, harm none" and that sounds very much like the basic construction of your Absorbism. So if that is your personal belief, I say go for it!




Cat

Personal belief is just that-personal. I can't tell you what to believe any more than you can tell me what to believe. I follow the Wicca Religion and our creed is "Do what you will, harm none" and that sounds very much like the basic construction of your Absorbism. So if that is your personal belief, I say go for it!




Cat


Thanks!

Through Joy OR Tragedy.....wherever YOU find peace and comfort...enjoy and believe ;)

I sat down a while ago and decided that I believed in Christ, but the church was a bit too intolerant for me. Plus, it restricted free thought and denied some scientific theory. So I adopted my own belief system: I call it Absorbism!

Here's the basic construction of Absorbism. It's less of a religion then it is a system that can be added to the worship {or lack thereof} of any deity:

1. You may have any belief you desire, as long as it does not do any of the following:
     1. Restrict Free Thought
     2. Promote Harming any group or person, physically or psychologically
     3. Promote Intolerance or Hate
2. If you know of any religious groups, be sure to find at least one virtue/belief of theirs that you respect and adopt that belief, as long as it does not conflict with the first law of Absorbism.

These are my beliefs, and I follow them. I have adopted one belief from every religion I know of, from Catholicism to Satanism {yes, there are laws of Satanism that do not conflict with the First Law. They are very good ideas}

Tell me how it sounds. People have called it brilliant, people have called it blasphemous. I started it, and have persuaded a few to adopt it. Thanks for your opinions!


Interesting idea, Apricot. It's a kind of 'have your cake and eat it' thing (though I mean this in the most tongue in cheek way  ;)). Basically, you have looked at the weaknesses of religions and come up with your conclusions to believe in something.

I've got to ask this. What belief did you adopt from these religions?

Satanism
Mormons
Jehovah's Witnesses

Satanism
Mormons
Jehovah's Witnesses



Ah. I figured someone would ask.


Mormonism: There is a belief expressed in the Mormon Holy Book of Moroni I agree with. It forbids the baptism of babies and small children who are incapable of understanding what they are doing. I support this idea of allowing people to make a concious decision about their religion, instead of it being thrust on them at too early of an age.

Satanism: People don't know a lot about this one, but I have a friend who came across a magazine on the occult that talked a bit about Satanism. I've adopted the 2 ideas I agreed with the most:
1. This law forbids acts stupidity
2. This law forbids following any conformist group. The only time it is acceptable to be involved with a crowd is if you are leading it.

Jehovah's Witnesses: Thanks for reminding me, I completely forgot about them. I'll have to reasearch them and adopt something.

Ah. I figured someone would ask.

Yeah. I'm the nosey one.  ;D

Mormonism: There is a belief expressed in the Mormon Holy Book of Moroni I agree with. It forbids the baptism of babies and small children who are incapable of understanding what they are doing. I support this idea of allowing people to make a concious decision about their religion, instead of it being thrust on them at too early of an age.

That is a good idea. I was baptised a Methodist and have no idea what it is all about. I thought you was going to adopt the bigamy law - I know I would.  ;D

Satanism: People don't know a lot about this one, but I have a friend who came across a magazine on the occult that talked a bit about Satanism. I've adopted the 2 ideas I agreed with the most:
1. This law forbids acts stupidity
2. This law forbids following any conformist group. The only time it is acceptable to be involved with a crowd is if you are leading it.

I agree with the first in which it should forbid the act of intentionally malicious acts of stupidity that affects the way other people live their lives. As for the second, the only time it is acceptable is if you are leading the crowd? Ho ho! They then conform to you.  ;)

Jehovah's Witnesses: Thanks for reminding me, I completely forgot about them. I'll have to reasearch them and adopt something.


Heh heh. That's your homework for today.  ;)  ;D

I sat down a while ago and decided that I believed in Christ, but the church was a bit too intolerant for me. Plus, it restricted free thought and denied some scientific theory. So I adopted my own belief system: I call it Absorbism!

Here's the basic construction of Absorbism. It's less of a religion then it is a system that can be added to the worship {or lack thereof} of any deity:

1. You may have any belief you desire, as long as it does not do any of the following:
     1. Restrict Free Thought
     2. Promote Harming any group or person, physically or psychologically
     3. Promote Intolerance or Hate
2. If you know of any religious groups, be sure to find at least one virtue/belief of theirs that you respect and adopt that belief, as long as it does not conflict with the first law of Absorbism.

These are my beliefs, and I follow them. I have adopted one belief from every religion I know of, from Catholicism to Satanism {yes, there are laws of Satanism that do not conflict with the First Law. They are very good ideas}


Tell me how it sounds. People have called it brilliant, people have called it blasphemous. I started it, and have persuaded a few to adopt it. Thanks for your opinions!

As the creator of Absorbism, would you consider being its prophet?

As the creator of Absorbism, would you consider being its prophet?


I'm only trying to make the world a better place by creating a belief system that denounces violence and hate, and does not control anyone's thoughts. If that makes me a prophet, then I guess I am. Keep in mind though, it's not as much of a religion as it is a set of ideas that may be added to any religion. I don't know if you can have a prophet for an idea.

I'm only trying to make the world a better place by creating a belief system that denounces violence and hate, and does not control anyone's thoughts. If that makes me a prophet, then I guess I am. Keep in mind though, it's not as much of a religion as it is a set of ideas that may be added to any religion. I don't know if you can have a prophet for an idea.


If you're declining this position, would that make Absorbism a non-prophet making organisation?? :D (Groan!)

If you're declining this position, would that make Absorbism a non-prophet making organisation?? :D (Groan!)


That's awesome...... ;D

I think your idea is quite modern, however it may have already been done, or is being done as we speak, whether we're aware of it or not.  For eg. in Christianity, the Christmas tree, yule log, missletoe, holly, even Santa Clause, etc.  I am not sure those are original icons of Christianity. I think they were absorbed into Christianity from pagan rituals or basic living conditions of the people in that time period.  This is just my understanding and and one minute example, and other absorbtion probably has occurred in other religions as well.

If you're declining this position, would that make Absorbism a non-prophet making organisation?? :D (Groan!)


Ha ha!  ;D

I think your idea is quite modern, however it may have already been done, or is being done as we speak, whether we're aware of it or not.  For eg. in Christianity, the Christmas tree, yule log, missletoe, holly, even Santa Clause, etc.  I am not sure those are original icons of Christianity. I think they were absorbed into Christianity from pagan rituals or basic living conditions of the people in that time period.  This is just my understanding and and one minute example, and other absorbtion probably has occurred in other religions as well.



Most of the Christmas festivities do stem from Paganism-including the holiday itself. The Winter Solstice is celebrated on Dec 21 and when Christianity came about, people didn't want to lose that holiday so the Christian Church put a holiday about the same time (Dec 25) so people could STILL celebrate. Just about all the icons of Christmas were part of the Pagan Celebration. Another little tidbit, in Pagan lore, the Goddess gives birth to the God on the Winter Solstice. Sound familar?




Cat

Christmas also corresponds with the Roman festival of Bacchus (the God of Revelry - partying basically) around late December. Christianity wanted to get in with the Romans being that they were the major empire of the time.

The fact that Christianity stems so much from the assimilation of other religions is one of the reasons I have trouble accepting its mythology. {if you can call it that} I believe in Christ, but some of the things in the Holy Book are so far fetched I have trouble knowing what part to believe, so I decided to develop my own theories. And that, children, is how Absorbism was started.

The fact that Christianity stems so much from the assimilation of other religions is one of the reasons I have trouble accepting its mythology. {if you can call it that} I believe in Christ, but some of the things in the Holy Book are so far fetched I have trouble knowing what part to believe, so I decided to develop my own theories. And that, children, is how Absorbism was started.
Well I work on the theory that the Bible is of it's time,it was written a long time ago and in the way that life was lived then and also by humans who are want to change/exagerate/embelish stories,human nature being what it is.
Something I found interesting is that the number three in respect of the holy trinity crops up in many religions.When you look into it it's amazing how similar a lot of them are in their basic structure. 

Well I work on the theory that the Bible is of it's time,it was written a long time ago and in the way that life was lived then and also by humans who are want to change/exagerate/embelish stories,human nature being what it is.
Something I found interesting is that the number three in respect of the holy trinity crops up in many religions.When you look into it it's amazing how similar a lot of them are in their basic structure. 


The trinity was yet again a modification to include the Romans into their Christianity. It borrows from the belief in the two-headed god Janus that could look into the past and into the future at the same time. He was guardian of the gates and gave us the name 'January'.

Holy Buckingsqwank! I've named someone's faith!

Personal belief is just that-personal. I can't tell you what to believe any more than you can tell me what to believe. I follow the Wicca Religion and our creed is "Do what you will, harm none" and that sounds very much like the basic construction of your Absorbism. So if that is your personal belief, I say go for it!

Cat


Wiccan, for real, well I guess we are on the same page.  I will admit that I do not follow any religion, but the Wiccan is as close to what I would do after being brought up Christian and seeing that as a female I was being dissed all over town.  Living in close proximity to Salem, Massachusetts and finding out the real reason behind the witch trials was an eyeopener, too.  In high school I had a teacher who dared broach the subject of pagan religious holidays being a forerunner to many of the Christian holidays, and when I realized that I would not feel comfortable repeating what he said, because I knew that he would get in trouble for it, I also realized that there was something seriously wrong.  I also had the felling that if I had been in Salem in 1692 I would have been cowed or killed, either way it wouldn't have been good.

Wiccan, for real, well I guess we are on the same page.  I will admit that I do not follow any religion, but the Wiccan is as close to what I would do after being brought up Christian and seeing that as a female I was being dissed all over town.  Living in close proximity to Salem, Massachusetts and finding out the real reason behind the witch trials was an eyeopener, too.  In high school I had a teacher who dared broach the subject of pagan religious holidays being a forerunner to many of the Christian holidays, and when I realized that I would not feel comfortable repeating what he said, because I knew that he would get in trouble for it, I also realized that there was something seriously wrong.  I also had the felling that if I had been in Salem in 1692 I would have been cowed or killed, either way it wouldn't have been good.


When I was in school learning about the Salem Witch Trials, I too felt that I would have been accussed. It wasn't until many years later that I realized why-I AM A WITCH! It did take me many years to come out of the "broom closet".



Cat

I don't follow any religion either, though I was raised Catholic (as a good PR boy).  We did have a Wiccan wedding (my idea).  I agree with those who have said that organized religions tend to be narrow minded, but my biggest gripe is with Christianity, Islam, and Judaism because they are "revealed religions" and all believe they are the chosen people, which makes everybody else NOT choosen, and therefore "less than fully human".

There is a new book on Salem called "In the Devil's Snare" by Mary Beth Norton which is excellent and sheds new light on the whole episode.  Highly recommended.

Don Carlos.... Part of why I no longer consider myself Christian is because of the superiority complex the church holds. One belief I adopted when changing to Absorbist was my belief of equality. Everyone is the same in my eyes.

Don Carlos.... Part of why I no longer consider myself Christian is because of the superiority complex the church holds. One belief I adopted when changing to Absorbist was my belief of equality. Everyone is the same in my eyes.


You will find that most organized religions espouse a certain superiority to themselves.
It is a way of mentally coddling people.  They say "If you join us you will be better than anyone else"
and people go for it.  It is very easy for people to feel superior by pointing to their religion, their family,
the color of their skin.  Much easier than actually doing good works.  Better you should live your life
in a way that shows your faith, whatever that maybe.

You will find that most organized religions espouse a certain superiority to themselves.


Exactly. If there was no superiority complex or incentives no one would join them.  ;D

That's why I'm so against organized religion.

You will find that most organized religions espouse a certain superiority to themselves.
It is a way of mentally coddling people.  They say "If you join us you will be better than anyone else"
and people go for it.  It is very easy for people to feel superior by pointing to their religion, their family,
the color of their skin.  Much easier than actually doing good works.  Better you should live your life
in a way that shows your faith, whatever that maybe.


I think it is more complicated when it comes to non-revealed religions.  Ethnocentrism is a common, world wide phenomenon, but Hindus, Buddists, Animalists (those who worship spirits in all living things), Wiccans etc. may be ethnocentric, that is favor their own ethnic group, but not based on a religious identity.  Christians, Jews, and Moslems, believing that God is on their side, do.  For the ethnocentric, if you practice my cultural traditions you are "one of us", if not, you are an outsider.  For these religions, if you accept my version of God, you are among the elect and saved, if not, you're damned to hell.  Ethnocentrism can be ugly enough, but I think, in most cases, holier than thou has been worse, and has led to worse.  One of the early justifications for enslaving Africans was that they were the "decendents of Ham".  Add to that the European superiority complex (which can also be related to holier than thou a la Max Weber) and you have the plunder of Africa's population.  I'm trying to be brief, but I hope I am expressing this coherently.

Maybe it's just from my upbringing, but I found religion to be a necessary part of life as it is like posts or columns that set the boundries in ones life...if you do bad...uh-oh,..God is not pleased, if you have questions the religion is the pillars to keep you on track...

Now.....kinda wondering how people feel (in the Catholic religion on this 'wheat intolerant' little girl who the Catholic church won't validify her Holy Sacrament of Communion because she can't eat a wheat wafer??
Never heard it HAD to be wheat in my upbringing...but do you think the churchs' method is Let her have the wafer, if it kills her she'll get to see God earlier!???

It was a big topic on radio-talkshows lately. ???

Maybe it's just from my upbringing, but I found religion to be a necessary part of life as it is like posts or columns that set the boundries in ones life...if you do bad...uh-oh,..God is not pleased, if you have questions the religion is the pillars to keep you on track...

Now.....kinda wondering how people feel (in the Catholic religion on this 'wheat intolerant' little girl who the Catholic church won't validify her Holy Sacrament of Communion because she can't eat a wheat wafer??
Never heard it HAD to be wheat in my upbringing...but do you think the churchs' method is Let her have the wafer, if it kills her she'll get to see God earlier!???

It was a big topic on radio-talkshows lately. ???


First, I find it sad so many people seem to feel that they would be evil without religion (that is the fear of hell) to keep them on the straight and narrow.  Personally, I don't believe in either heaven or hell, but do believe that "what goes around, comes around".  If you treat people with compassion, dignity, honesty, and respect, that's what you'll get back, most of the time.  If you treat people like s**t,, that's how you will be treated.  Do what you will, harm none.  It distresses me that so many people need some other PERSON to tell them how to lead a moral life (Saver, please don't take this personally, it is not ment in that way.  What you have posted is, I think, a very common, far too common IMHO, view.  I thank you for expressing it so clearly, and would like to hear the response of others re your expressed dependance and my reaction - again, this is NOT personal.

I read about this little girl.  I see this situation as just one more example of ideological intrangegence getting in the way of humanity (and humility).  For me, if the choice was between first communion and my kid's life, I'll take my kid's life every time, and tell the Pope (a human being) to go...well, what Chaney told Pat Laehy to do.

That's why I'm so against organized religion.



Me too. Like I said in my first post on this thread, personal beliefs are just that-personal. I will NOT have some priest/minister/rabbi-anyone tell me what I believe.

Just a little FYI, I was brought up as both an Espicapalian and a Jew. We celebrated both Christmas and Hanaka-both Easter and Passover. And today, (like I said) I am a Pagan.  ;D So that means I celebrate EVERYTHING now.  ;D ;D (Any excuse for a party)


Cat

  Posted by: DanootaAndMe 
Insert Quote
Quote from: Apricot on August 20, 2004, 08:15:28 PM
Don Carlos.... Part of why I no longer consider myself Christian is because of the superiority complex the church holds. One belief I adopted when changing to Absorbist was my belief of equality. Everyone is the same in my eyes.


You will find that most organized religions espouse a certain superiority to themselves.
It is a way of mentally coddling people.  They say "If you join us you will be better than anyone else"
and people go for it.  It is very easy for people to feel superior by pointing to their religion, their family,
the color of their skin.  Much easier than actually doing good works.  Better you should live your life
in a way that shows your faith, whatever that maybe.
 

Anyone who could consider themselves "no longer a Christian" never was one...You either are or aren't a Christian...You either take the time to develope your own personal relationship, and explore and understanding of Him, or reject any attempt, because you have based your belief in Christ on what others have told you...He will in no way, cast anyone aside who asks with a sincere heart, for understanding...How many times are we going to slam Christ for what others do "in His Name"...c'mon...It is just an excuse for people to turn their backs on Him, and a licence to do it their own way..."You're not the boss-a-me!"
There are many who call themselves Christian, but have made Christ a stumbling block to others...(I can call myself anything I want...doesn't make it so)
Matthew 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

As far as a superiority complex...that's just everyones pathetic attempt to validate themselves...Pure Ego...and everyone of us has go at that...Please don't tell me that all the Libs don't think they got it going on...and that they could really shape up this wicked country we live in...Or that you are better off, because you are a open-minded witch, rather than a narrow Christian... ;)  Its Survival...

Oh and I do agree about the works...
James 2:17  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18  Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
James 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Anyone who could consider themselves "no longer a Christian" never was one...You either are or aren't a Christian...You either take the time to develope your own personal relationship, and explore and understanding of Him, or reject any attempt, because you have based your belief in Christ on what others have told you...He will in no way, cast anyone aside who asks with a sincere heart, for understanding...How many times are we going to slam Christ for what others do "in His Name"...c'mon...It is just an excuse for people to turn their backs on Him, and a licence to do it their own way..."You're not the boss-a-me!"

So what about the people that try to develop a personal relationship but can't? Developing a personal relationship with someone based on a book is a very difficult thing to do. This is a personal thing but I think religion and delusion are very closely linked and it is something I struggle with.

There are many who call themselves Christian, but have made Christ a stumbling block to others...(I can call myself anything I want...doesn't make it so)
Matthew 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You are right. The trouble is there are lots of people in religion doing that. It keeps people on their guard against religious groups.  :-\\

As far as a superiority complex...that's just everyones pathetic attempt to validate themselves...Pure Ego...and everyone of us has go at that...Please don't tell me that all the Libs don't think they got it going on...and that they could really shape up this wicked country we live in...Or that you are better off, because you are a open-minded witch, rather than a narrow Christian... ;)  Its Survival...

Who are trying to validate themselves? The Christians? The people commenting on this thread? The Liberals?  ???

My opinion is that religion essentially uses the same program, it has a focus (God/Buddha . . .), an incentive (Heaven/Reincarnation to a higher being etc) and a pattern of living (being good/forgiving people/knocking on people's doors to offer magazines/abstaining from certain practices).

Anyone who could consider themselves "no longer a Christian" never was one...You either are or aren't a Christian...You either take the time to develope your own personal relationship, and explore and understanding of Him, or reject any attempt, because you have based your belief in Christ on what others have told you...He will in no way, cast anyone aside who asks with a sincere heart, for understanding...How many times are we going to slam Christ for what others do "in His Name"...c'mon...It is just an excuse for people to turn their backs on Him, and a licence to do it their own way..."You're not the boss-a-me!"
There are many who call themselves Christian, but have made Christ a stumbling block to others...(I can call myself anything I want...doesn't make it so)
Matthew 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

As far as a superiority complex...that's just everyones pathetic attempt to validate themselves...Pure Ego...and everyone of us has go at that...Please don't tell me that all the Libs don't think they got it going on...and that they could really shape up this wicked country we live in...Or that you are better off, because you are a open-minded witch, rather than a narrow Christian... ;)  Its Survival...

Oh and I do agree about the works...
James 2:17  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18  Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
James 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.



I almost cannot believe what you have written here.  It is not for you to decide who is or isn't, was or wasn't a Christian.  "Judge not lest ye be judged" You imply that anyone who has a dialog with Christ and doesn't accept him as their personal saviour is doing so to justify a wicked life.  You also imply that I am slamming Christ when I do no such thing.  What I slam is the people and/or organizations that use his name for their own nefarious purposes.  There are many non-Christians leading very "Christian" lives everyday, and I believe that anyone who sincerely believes the teachings of Christ would also believe that these people would be welcomed into heaven regardless of the faith they espoused.  I believe it is the life lived that gains admittance. You can site as many books and chapters as you please, but what you have written here is intolerant and judgemental. "Jesus Wept"

Anyway, I am not putting on the 'way' anyone should live. This was just a comment on what I see religion does for one. Without pillars to keep you on track, how do you know if you are going the WRONG direction???..Unless you were brought up to love everything and so precise on what's right or wrong. Religion is a way to live 'by'.
If everything were so zen...but didn't that come from religion?

Heard a comic say how he would like to walk up to someone
on the street, out of nowhere and hit them in the face and say "wow, bad karma!"
Makes ya think.....

Enjoy the ride here, as they say!
Love chatting with this place.

Saver 

Anyway, I am not putting on the 'way' anyone should live. This was just a comment on what I see religion does for one. Without pillars to keep you on track, how do you know if you are going the WRONG direction???..Unless you were brought up to love everything and so precise on what's right or wrong. Religion is a way to live 'by'.
If everything were so zen...but didn't that come from religion?

Heard a comic say how he would like to walk up to someone
on the street, out of nowhere and hit them in the face and say "wow, bad karma!"
Makes ya think.....

Enjoy the ride here, as they say!
Love chatting with this place.

Saver 


Yes, and different people are held up by different posts, we may follow different paths, headed in
the same direction.

Yes, and different people are held up by different posts, we may follow different paths, headed in
the same direction.


Well, you take the high road and I take the low road . . .

Bobby wrote:
So what about the people that try to develop a personal relationship but can't? Developing a personal relationship with someone based on a book is a very difficult thing to do. This is a personal thing but I think religion and delusion are very closely linked and it is something I struggle with.

I really think that if you are truly seeking Bobby, you will find.  I don't think it is a matter of "hugging" a book, so much as it is being willing to admit our shortcomings  without any ya-buts, or pointing at somebody else that is doing something that we see as more sinful than ourselves. (and we don't need a preacher, rabbi, or any go-between to do this, Christ died for all, but more important came here for us all, and taught for all our edification.)  Reading the story of Christ only helps us get a better view of who He is.  Then when He does touch our lives, we can relate what he shows to us by His teachings in the Scripture.  I think there is always going to be some sort of struggle, when we are in between living our lives on the edge, or going for it, and taking the leap of faith.  I don't think it is delusional, so much as indecision.

You are right. The trouble is there are lots of people in religion doing that. It keeps people on their guard against religious groups.
It happens all the time.  I see a lot of finger pointing at someone elses flaws, trying to pick the splinter out of their neighbors eye, and they can't even begin to see clearly enough, for the tree sticking out of their own eye.  Some will act like Gods very own press secretary,  saying they have a message for us from "God"...uh, I think God has everyones numbers, and if He wants to talk to me, He will...The thing is, they really mean well...(at least the average person)...But the fact is many of these "so called" Christians have kept a lot of people from seeking Christ...I know, because I was grossed out for years, thinking, "if this is what Christianity is all about, I want no part of it"...where is the forgiveness?  where is the love?
Mark 9:42  And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones (babes in Christ) that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.  

Who are trying to validate themselves? The Christians? The people commenting on this thread? The Liberals?  
My opinion is that religion essentially uses the same program, it has a focus (God/Buddha . . .), an incentive (Heaven/Reincarnation to a higher being etc) and a pattern of living (being good/forgiving people/knocking on people's doors to offer magazines/abstaining from certain practices).

I think we all fall into the trap of "thinking" we are better than others, when really we are hiding behind this thinking, because we really "feel" not as good as...It is a hot and cold way of thinking and feeling (this would be delusional ;D)...and exhausting...I came to the realization several years ago, that I am no worse than anyone, nor am I any better...we are all "pieces of work" and capable of good works, or bad...It actually keeps me in balance, and very willing to forgive, anothers flaws, anger, and misjudgement...for I know that I will do something to offend, and pray I am afforded the same forgiveness...When you love others, you are loving Christ...simple as that...
Jesus said:
Matthew 25:35 For I hungered, and you gave Me food to eat; I thirsted, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you took Me in;
25:36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me."
25:37 Then the righteous (the equitable, and fair, those with love in their hearts)  will answer, saying, "Lord, when did we see You hungry, and fed You;  or thirsting, and gave You drink?
25:38 And when did we see You a stranger, and took You in; or naked, and clothed You?
25:39 And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and came to You?"
25:40 And answering, the King will say to them, "Truly I say to you, In so far as you did it to one of these, the least of My brothers, you did it to Me."

As far as incentives for belonging to any religion, I guess I would have to say, that at the beginning of any relationship we would be looking for something to fill an emptiness...the hole inside of us...but as we grow in the relationship from infant, to child, to a salty adult, our needs are sure to change...as a matter of fact, we go from always looking for God to Bless us, to wanting to do something good for Him...wanting to Bless Him, and put a smile on His face... :)

DanootaandME wrote:
I almost cannot believe what you have written here.  It is not for you to decide who is or isn't, was or wasn't a Christian.  "Judge not lest ye be judged" You imply that anyone who has a dialog with Christ and doesn't accept him as their personal saviour is doing so to justify a wicked life.  You also imply that I am slamming Christ when I do no such thing.  What I slam is the people and/or organizations that use his name for their own nefarious purposes.  There are many non-Christians leading very "Christian" lives everyday, and I believe that anyone who sincerely believes the teachings of Christ would also believe that these people would be welcomed into heaven regardless of the faith they espoused.  I believe it is the life lived that gains admittance. You can site as many books and chapters as you please, but what you have written here is intolerant and judgemental. "Jesus Wept" ???

...I am not judging anyone...but one does have to have some discernement...My cat thinks he is a people...but I see he has 4 legs, a tail, meows while he is trying to open the door...and I know he is a cat.  
One may call themselves a Christian, till the cows come home, but if they are backbiting others, spewing hatred, and telling others they are "going to hell in a handbasket"  when they would do better to pay attention to their own flaws...they are not behaving as Christ's men....(see the scripture, that I posted above and you quoted)
Matthew 12:33   For a tree is known by its fruit.

I guess I am not sure what burr got under your saddle, but I think we are sorta saying the same thing. :-\\

It is a wicked trap I see, (in most of us) when we focus on the flaws of one another...I see a lot of bitching, and moaning; finger pointing, and slandering...but little action...and it doesn't matter what anyone calls themselves...you either talk about it all day long, or get up and do something positive about it...many talk the talk, but few walk the walk.  How we talk to, and about others, can either be edifying, or destructive...a tree is known by its fruit...do we destroy, or uplift?  Do we want to fight, or do we want to be peacemakers?
Do you not think maybe you are being prematurely intolerant of me?  

I really think that if you are truly seeking Bobby, you will find.  I don't think it is a matter of "hugging" a book, so much as it is being willing to admit our shortcomings  without any ya-buts, or pointing at somebody else that is doing something that we see as more sinful than ourselves. (and we don't need a preacher, rabbi, or any go-between to do this, Christ died for all, but more important came here for us all, and taught for all our edification.)  Reading the story of Christ only helps us get a better view of who He is.  Then when He does touch our lives, we can relate what he shows to us by His teachings in the Scripture.  I think there is always going to be some sort of struggle, when we are in between living our lives on the edge, or going for it, and taking the leap of faith.  I don't think it is delusional, so much as indecision.

I think people can be willing to accept their shortcomings without the need for religion, Chickengurl. My indecision is not delusional - that is mere confusion. I was referring to religion being delusional and not being able to come to terms with it as a result. I was brought up in a religion where people didn't look as though they had faith, they looked as though they were going mad. There is a fine line between faith and madness (again, my opinion).

It happens all the time.  I see a lot of finger pointing at someone elses flaws, trying to pick the splinter out of their neighbors eye, and they can't even begin to see clearly enough, for the tree sticking out of their own eye.  Some will act like Gods very own press secretary,  saying they have a message for us from "God"...uh, I think God has everyones numbers, and if He wants to talk to me, He will...The thing is, they really mean well...(at least the average person)...But the fact is many of these "so called" Christians have kept a lot of people from seeking Christ...I know, because I was grossed out for years, thinking, "if this is what Christianity is all about, I want no part of it"...where is the forgiveness?  where is the love?
Mark 9:42  And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones (babes in Christ) that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. 

I felt the same way. The trouble is, I never believed that the people who were trying to 'help' me were meaning well. I got the impression they were merely 'sticking their oar in' .

I think we all fall into the trap of "thinking" we are better than others, when really we are hiding behind this thinking, because we really "feel" not as good as...It is a hot and cold way of thinking and feeling (this would be delusional ;D)...and exhausting...I came to the realization several years ago, that I am no worse than anyone, nor am I any better...we are all "pieces of work" and capable of good works, or bad...It actually keeps me in balance, and very willing to forgive, anothers flaws, anger, and misjudgement...for I know that I will do something to offend, and pray I am afforded the same forgiveness...When you love others, you are loving Christ...simple as that...
Jesus said:
Matthew 25:35 For I hungered, and you gave Me food to eat; I thirsted, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you took Me in;
25:36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me."
25:37 Then the righteous (the equitable, and fair, those with love in their hearts)  will answer, saying, "Lord, when did we see You hungry, and fed You;  or thirsting, and gave You drink?
25:38 And when did we see You a stranger, and took You in; or naked, and clothed You?
25:39 And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and came to You?"
25:40 And answering, the King will say to them, "Truly I say to you, In so far as you did it to one of these, the least of My brothers, you did it to Me."

I wasn't using egotism in an individual sense, Chickengurl, I was using it in a generic context (probably to describe the 'leaders' rather than the 'learners'). I really wonder if a Catholic leader would help a troubled Protestant leader (or vice versa) lying in the road (in the Great Samaritan manner). If so, would they do it because they felt superior to this vulnerable person rather than helping him because they truly wanted to?

As far as incentives for belonging to any religion, I guess I would have to say, that at the beginning of any relationship we would be looking for something to fill an emptiness...the hole inside of us...but as we grow in the relationship from infant, to child, to a salty adult, our needs are sure to change...as a matter of fact, we go from always looking for God to Bless us, to wanting to do something good for Him...wanting to Bless Him, and put a smile on His face... :)

Yeah? Well that's nice. So the fear of hell is nothing to do with this?  ;)

I am not judging anyone...but one does have to have some discernement...My cat thinks he is a people...but I see he has 4 legs, a tail, meows while he is trying to open the door...and I know he is a cat. 

You did use the 'if you're not for us, you are against us' argument, Chickengurl.

One may call themselves a Christian, till the cows come home, but if they are backbiting others, spewing hatred, and telling others they are "going to hell in a handbasket"  when they would do better to pay attention to their own flaws...they are not behaving as Christ's men....(see the scripture, that I posted above and you quoted)
Matthew 12:33  For a tree is known by its fruit.

And the scripture that talks about the bad apple affecting the entire crop. I don't doubt the bible's natural wisdom. It has good advice (even without the spiritual context).

It is a wicked trap I see, (in most of us) when we focus on the flaws of one another...I see a lot of bitching, and moaning; finger pointing, and slandering...but little action...and it doesn't matter what anyone calls themselves...you either talk about it all day long, or get up and do something positive about it...many talk the talk, but few walk the walk.  How we talk to, and about others, can either be edifying, or destructive...a tree is known by its fruit...do we destroy, or uplift?  Do we want to fight, or do we want to be peacemakers?
Do you not think maybe you are being prematurely intolerant of me? 

To be honest, Chickengurl, you kind of went off on one in your last post. To be fair to you, you handled this post very well. Adding emotion to religious arguments is only going to repel rather than attract.  :)